Kaalia, Zenith Seeker "Certified Air Raid Material" Blink/Recursion

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RowanKeltizar
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Just a tiny note but you should be able to stop the Worldgorger Dragon loop with Glorious Protector now, even without a secondary target for animate.

IIRC, the animate leaving the field is a trigger to sacrifice, so you can pop protector on it when animate leaves, then all your stuff comes back and animate goes to the bin.

This list looks like a ton of fun :) I love me some angels and demons and such.

Only maybe glaring omission I see is Scourge of the Throne which at its price cranks out a ton of work at just killin fellas. Lacking an ETB is a thing but its ability just turn a random board into killing two people.
So the only problem I see with Glorious Protector exiling WGD (unless I also haven't had enough coffee this morning) is that if she ever leaves play again for any reason I get a WGD into play again with no loop and therefore nothing else in play. Seems like a bit of a liability,

I would like to compare Scourge of the Throne to Aurelia, the Warleader. Although Aurelia is way more color intensive you get haste and you lose the conditional attack clause. Seems a bit stronger to me. There is the possibility of running both, but I am trying to stick to 5 cmc and lower whenever I can.
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WBElenda, the Dusk Rose - Drain and Gain
WRAurelia, the Warleader - Tokens/Equipment
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BRGHenzie, "Toolbox" Torre - Creature Feature
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

RowanKeltizar wrote:
3 years ago
So the only problem I see with Glorious Protector exiling WGD (unless I also haven't had enough coffee this morning) is that if she ever leaves play again for any reason I get a WGD into play again with no loop and therefore nothing else in play. Seems like a bit of a liability,
Presumably if you can get all the angels and demons out of your deck with infinite mana you can just win the game on that turn with Terror of the Peaks so I wouldn't stress out about it.

(Point being you can just go off with animate/worldgorger early with kaalia out, make infinite mana and get all your angels/demons/etc. then drop GP to stop the loop, then kill everyone with terror → the rest of your deck).
RowanKeltizar wrote:
3 years ago
I would like to compare Scourge of the Throne to Aurelia, the Warleader. Although Aurelia is way more color intensive you get haste and you lose the conditional attack clause. Seems a bit stronger to me. There is the possibility of running both, but I am trying to stick to 5 cmc and lower whenever I can.
Yeah I can see that :) I do think having one extra attack guy is right though - main difference with Scourge is it's 6 power when it attacks and comes out a turn earlier, and can be Glorious Protector'd which is nice.

Maybe Hellkite Charger? Dunno. I always really enjoyed that explosiveness.

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

For the sake of the primer I've created a more combo centric decklist and I'd like everyone's help with it. I don't plan to build this but this is more for those cEDH / combo players out there. To me, this is absolutely boring as most cEDH lists tend to be for me. They are just so cookie cutter.

Instead of winning through combat damage we deal infinite damage with Terror of the Peaks or Dragon Tempest. And failing that, we can use Aurelia's Fury or even Piranha Marsh. There are a few other combinations as well. We will probably run into the situation of having to re-target WGD to begin another loop with another one of the reanimating enchantments.
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Essentially, this decklist focuses on getting the Worldgorger Dragon / Animate Dead combo into play effectively and actually winning with it early and consistently. I throw budget to the wind with this decklist.

The reason I think Zenith Seeker is such a good commander for the WGD combo is that she acts as a tutor in your command zone with the combo active and she specifically grabs us Terror of the Peaks and other helpful cards. White also gives us access to some good tutors, removal and protection effects.

Scion of the Ur-Dragon is probably the only other commander I would consider.

The main differences here is that you no longer need so many A.D.D. since you are primarily using her trigger as an infinite combo NOT as a value engine. The A.D.D. we do run are specifically there to utilize the infinite mana at our disposal once the combo goes off OR to also combo with WGD to win if Kaalia isn't available or if we can simply get those creatures into play before her.

We are running all the rituals and tutors we can to make this combo happen early. We are also running a lot more protection and interaction for the combo itself so it is harder to disrupt or control.

We are running redundancy to Animate Dead as well so we get even more chances to attach WGD to it. I would also like to choose one other efficient and effective blink combo in case WGD gets exiled.

There are some discard effects here in case WGD ends up in our hand, as well as some ways to recur any of our reanimating enchantments.
WRBKaalia, Zenith Seeker - Certified Air Raid Material
WBElenda, the Dusk Rose - Drain and Gain
WRAurelia, the Warleader - Tokens/Equipment
URNiv-Mizzet, Parun - Controlled Burn primer
BRGHenzie, "Toolbox" Torre - Creature Feature
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RGWGishath, Sun's Avatar - I'M YOUR DADDY
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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

RowanKeltizar wrote:
3 years ago
The reason I think Zenith Seeker is such a good commander for the WGD combo is that she acts as a tutor in your command zone with the combo active and she specifically grabs us Terror of the Peaks and other helpful cards. White also gives us access to some good tutors, removal and protection effects.
The problem is, this isn't a combo deck. This commander is best positioned as a tempo deck, ensuring that you always have another threat on-hand which dissuades removal coming your way as often because you'll have another threat anyway and they're down a card. This coupled with the commander providing fuel and being a fairly unattractive removal target herself only confirms this. The OG Kaalia is much more of a combo deck, and much better suited to it, by virtue of offering a "free" Sneak Attack every turn.

If you want to combo with Animate Dead/Worldgorger Dragon, you're best off using Ghen, Arcanum Weaver, since you can at least dig up the aura when you're ready to go off. And it's got the resiliency built into it.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
If you want to combo with Animate Dead/Worldgorger Dragon, you're best off using Ghen, Arcanum Weaver, since you can at least dig up the aura when you're ready to go off. And it's got the resiliency built into it.
I don't know if I agree. The power of a deck isn't the only thing to look at. The gameplay options for kaalia playing a pretty high ratio of ADDs still even in a combo-focused build is nice, gives you a nice plan B. It takes quite a bit of setup for ghen to provide actual card advantage, whereas Kaalia brings CA on the tin.

I do think that this deck would be better off playing some other combos than worldgorger, because worldgorger is incredibly fragile and prone to getting blown out. The number of times I have killed it with its trigger on the stack is truly absurd.

I kinda like Wispweaver Angel + Restoration Angel + Terror of the Peaks -- or any pile of infinite blinks plus Dragon Tempest / Terror of the Peaks personally.

Given the individual card power in this deck though I don't think you really need to have a simple A+B combo but just my opinion I guess :)

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

Sadly, Restoration Angel can't target Wispweaver Angel. A lot of these blink angels have that annoying "non-angel" fine print.
3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
The problem is, this isn't a combo deck. This commander is best positioned as a tempo deck, ensuring that you always have another threat on-hand which dissuades removal coming your way as often because you'll have another threat anyway and they're down a card. This coupled with the commander providing fuel and being a fairly unattractive removal target herself only confirms this. The OG Kaalia is much more of a combo deck, and much better suited to it, by virtue of offering a "free" Sneak Attack every turn.
Generally I agree with that philosophy and that's why I chose not to build the combo version. That and $$$ and the fact that I find dedicated combo decks extremely boring.

That said, I do think Zenith Seeker combo is still a viable option, albeit a bit janky.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

RowanKeltizar wrote:
3 years ago
So Restoration Angel can't target Wispweaver Angel sadly. A lot of these blink angels have that annoying "non-angel" fine print.
I think I mixed that up in my head somehow, sorry! Could work with either one of them and Felidar Guardian who has some applications in the deck I guess. despite not being great.

You could use Wispweaver Angel + Karmic Guide + a sac outlet as well maybe?

I'll noodle on it more and see if I think of anything, I feel like there's probably a demon/dragon/angel interaction combo in these colors that's lethal, outside of just Sword of Feast and Famine and Hellkite Charger.

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 2 years ago

This continues to be a very fun deck to play. Like I said in the OP, it just scratches so many different itches.

I might actually want to up my creature count even more. 33 being the ideal ratio in my mind. This gives me a strong chance to hit 2 creatures with every Kaalia trigger. It really hurts to get a whiff with her ability which is why I wish they gave her one other relevant ability. Even something like: "if you don't reveal a card this way, you may return up to one Angel, Demon, or Dragon card from your graveyard to your hand" would have been fantastic.

To be honest, Scroll Rack and Land Tax are a bit slow for what I'm doing here. In theory they are good, but I often just find myself putting them on the bottom of my library or discarding them in favor of fielding more angels demons and dragons. Land Tax by itself doesn't really do enough. I mean, thinning my library for Kaalia's trigger is OK I guess, as is fattening my hand for discarding creatures at my end step, but these two things by themselves aren't worth a card slot. I don't have any other support cards for it.

And as far as Land Tax goes, keeping my basic land count up has actually been a bit of a hindrance since I sometimes feel bottlenecked with my colors while casting my more color heavy creatures.

What creatures am I considering?

Yosei, the Morning Star the other dragons with death triggers have been fantastic for me in this deck. Yosei also has a pretty powerful ability as it completely shuts down a player for a turn. It provides that tempo loss than can result in lethal damage if I have enough creatures on the field. If I can loop him, well that's just unfair.

Archangel of Tithes - I think this definitely should be in here. I think it does exactly what I need it to do, providing evasion for my creatures or protecting me from enemy creature swarms. While triple white can be problematic, 4cmc for this effect is excellent.

Linvala, Keeper of Silence - fantastic hatebear effect for many decks. At only 4 cmc this is probably worth consideration. Main thing is I want to keep my ETB theme intact. Swapping out for too many non-ETB creatures feels bad but maybe it's a limitation.

Shadrix Silverquill - This is exactly the kind of value I like on a creature. Card draw on a creature body can't be ignored. The other abilities can also be useful and I dig the political aspect of this card.

Skyline Despot - I've wondered if the draw from the monarch token is worth slotting this in. Of course making 5/5 dragons every upkeep can also be pretty good.

Ob Nixilis, Unshackled - at 6 cmc this actually feels playable. And he creates a very relevant effect.

Archfiend of Depravity - this card can be very oppressive and help deal with players that want to just field a ton of small creatures. Elfball etc...

Bruna, the Fading Light and Gisela, the Broken Blade Not sure if these are worth slots, but I love the flavor of possibly being able to meld these.


_______________________________________________________________________

I actually find myself questioning my mana rocks. In a deck that doesn't really draw cards outside of Kaalia's ability these are pretty terrible topdecks late game and I have no real way to trade them for something else.

It might worth considering other types of spells in this slot that are good at any point in the game. More tutors being foremost on my mind. Tutors are really really good in this deck.

Gamble, Grim Tutor, Vampiric Tutor might all be worth slots over the mana rocks. Reason being, getting Smothering Tithe into play early or Sneak Attack makes a huge difference. Lategame I can get a removal spell or whatever I need to close out the game. Living Death is also a fantastic fetch target lategame.
________________________________________________________________________

I question whether Bedevil is doing enough for me here. Something like Toxic Deluge, Fire Covenant or Austere Command might be better. We want our spells to do big things because we can struggle with card advantage when it comes to the non A.D.D. spells. Removing just one target just feels a bit on the weaker side for 3cmc when you compare that to Anguished Unmaking for example.

Despark suffers a similar feeling. Exiling does feel more worth it though, and this has saved me quite a few times and being a 2cmc instant certainly helps as well.

Panharmonicon works great with Kaalia herself, so I question whether reducing my other ETBs in the deck is a problem and warrants cutting this or not.
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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

I miss this deck. It really is a different kind of deck compared to my others. I should really reconstruct this deck. Maybe build it around revel in riches (death triggers, Kaalia doesn't mind dying!) as well as the approach of the second sun win con. And astral slide stuff, so I can use archfiend of ifnir more.

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 2 years ago

I would be curious to see what you come up with taking into consideration all the new cards we've gotten. Thanks for reminding me about Revel in Riches That needs to go in my Elenda deck and would actually be worth looking at here also.

I think the cycling version is very interesting as well. You could also do some broken things with Maskwood Nexus.

Another version that intrigues me is the cEDH WGD combo list with lots of protection and non-blue counterspells.
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 2 years ago

Oh, I forgot to list Shattered Angel as a potential include. I've been looking at ways to gain life efficiently and this one seems really decent in multiplier. I love things that just sit back and gain you value. I know that's all it does, but 6 life for one fetchland seems really good.
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WRAurelia, the Warleader - Tokens/Equipment
URNiv-Mizzet, Parun - Controlled Burn primer
BRGHenzie, "Toolbox" Torre - Creature Feature
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RGWGishath, Sun's Avatar - I'M YOUR DADDY
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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

I suspect my problem is that I'm trying to fit a lot of packages (and slide is a very large package itself) to a deck that commands a high investment in itself. I'd benefit more, and lessen my anxiety over number of slots, if I cut the slide package and just used a couple of flickers and sac outlets. Treasures and Deathrender things with sigarda's aid.

Revel in riches + smothering tithe + goldspan dragon (and gadrak is decently synergistic here too). Plus I get to run salvaging station here with other trinkets. That's fun.

Approach of the second sun is virtually a one card combo with the commander, winning the game for "just" {12}ww.

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Post by 3drinks » 2 years ago

RowanKeltizar wrote:
2 years ago
Oh, I forgot to list Shattered Angel as a potential include. I've been looking at ways to gain life efficiently and this one seems really decent in multiplier. I love things that just sit back and gain you value. I know that's all it does, but 6 life for one fetchland seems really good.
I really don't think you want to be playing a five mana 3/3 for this effect. And you realize it's off opponent's landfall, not yours right? Honestly, if you want some life, what I've been far more impressed by is Righteous Valkyrie (Kaalia procs it) and Angel of Vitality. You can supplement these with a simple Sun Droplet too, and hey since you're gaining a couple life here and there, why not add an Archangel of Thune.....

Of course Ivory Tower is also a reasonable include at a very cheap cmc mana value, since Kaalia also helps keep your hand full.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 2 years ago

Kothophed seems really sketch with smothering tithe running around...
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 2 years ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
2 years ago
Kothophed seems really sketch with smothering tithe running around...
Honestly, I think only one other player runs it in my playgroup. Many card choices are meta dependant. Same reason I mentioned Shattered Angel. Several players do the ole Azusa, Lost but Seeking fetchland thing. I'd be gaining 12-18 life on their turns.

Kothophed has actually been great and one of the most consistent card draw engines in the deck. I have a decent amount of removal and Smothering Tithe will always be an "answer me now" or lose kind of card.

I've found it's important to have sac outlets in this deck and I'm trying to find more without losing power elsewhere. Being able to sac something like Kothophed or World Gorger Dragon for that matter if I need to is REALLY important.

3drinks wrote:
2 years ago

I really don't think you want to be playing a five mana 3/3 for this effect. And you realize it's off opponent's landfall, not yours right? Honestly, if you want some life, what I've been far more impressed by is Righteous Valkyrie (Kaalia procs it) and Angel of Vitality. You can supplement these with a simple Sun Droplet too, and hey since you're gaining a couple life here and there, why not add an Archangel of Thune.....
I like Archangel of Thune and Righteous Valkyrie. I think those are both pretty good picks. Kaalia proccing the Valkyrie is HUGE and should gain me plenty of life. Worth testing for sure.
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 2 years ago

Changeslog 8/23/21

Angel of Condemnation => Archangel of Tithes The tap ability was often not fast enough without haste to be useful. Paying 3 mana was also really not what we need here. The archangel, despite her color weight, is a very helpful and flexible effect the for deck. She makes us immune to token hordes and forces our opponents to leave mana open for blocks. Honestly, been very happy with this one.

Zirilan of the Claw ==> Hellkite Tyrant - so the thing thing with Zirilan is that he exiles the creature at end of turn. This is actually a deal breaker as i rely heavily on reanimation for etbs and value. Tryant manages to be a win condition all on his own, especially with Smothering Tithe existing. Besides that, the fact that you get to KEEP the stolen permanents even after he leaves the battlefield baffles me.

Bogardan Hellkite ==> Obsidian Charmaw - so Bogardan hellkite has been in the deck a long time. I've always loved the artwork and the feeling of dealing that 5 damage. Abused, it can add up to a lot of damage over time, however Terror of the Peaks far outclasses him in that regard. I've since decided to drop him for a more efficient creature. The nobasic land hate is actually quite desirable as otherwise, i didn't have too many cards that could deal with the bogey lands of the format.

Abhorrent Overlord ==> Archfiend of Depravity - this feels like a very solid swap. sure it's not an etb but at such an efficient cost this can absolutely wreck my opponent's card advantage and clear the board of potential threats and utility creatures. Overload just felt too cumbersome for what it was doing. Also, is a "nonbo" with Heartless Summoning

Chromatic Lantern ==> Gilded Lotus I find i actually really need the big mana in this deck and the extra colors are very helpful. As far as lantern goes, i think i just need to get more dual lands.

Buried Alive ==> Thran Dynamo - having so many high cost creatures I think the artifact ramp just makes sense. Buried Alive is actually a pretty narrow tutor that doesn't immediately gain me card advantage. Too often I find it forecasts a reanimation spell the cards just get exiled anyway.

Idyllic Tutor ==> Grim Tutor For the same cmc we get access to more cards. I think this is a good optimization to make. I will be getting a Vampiric Tutor as budget allows.

Bedevil ==> Vindicate - I think the flexibility of Vindicate here is needed. I like bedevil for flavor, but moving on.

Spectator Seating, Vault of Champions, Luxury Suite - getting a few more duals in here is going to help a lot.

________________________________________________
CONSIDERATIONS

A/D/D

I am considering trying to make room for Bruna, the Fading Light and Gisela, the Broken Blade mostly for fun. I think the chances of getting these both together is going to be low, but the flavor intrigues me and I like doing unique things in my decks.

Ob Nixilis, Unshackled this guy. I think his 6cmc cost is justified given how hard he can hit. that ability straight up hoses some decks.

Yosei, the Morning Star would round the cycle of these dragons. the other 2 have been great. Yosei is a pretty nasty rattlesnake but i tend to steer away from creatures that can't give me immediate advantage

Sunscorch Regent - i think this guy actually has some potential. i could use a bit more lifegain. lifegain on a dragon is pretty unqiue. i like his cmc.


Removal


I feel like a could be a little light on removal. I'm very partial to instant speed, flexible removal.

Fire Covenant I see the potential of this to deal with problematic utility creatures efficiently. I have some lifegain in the deck but could add more.

Heliod's Intervention This card actually seems fantastic. Instant speed with a high ceiling without hitting my own stuff

Magmaquake being truely one sided seems good. added bonus of killing walkers. instant speed is great.

Swords to Plowshares, Chaos Warp - dealing with just one thing seems bad for this deck without a lot of card advantage, however these have been proven to be reliable in my other decks.


on the chopping block


Kaalia of the Vast as much as i like having her in the deck, being a 2/2 is a bad place to be.

Gift of Immortality, Panharmonicon yes it works great with a my commander, but i'm moving a lot of etb creatures out for creatures that can give me a bit more VALUE on their own.

Victimize - the fact that they come into play tapped really is a downside. i think we are more of an aggro deck than i care to admit.

Ill-Gotten Gains - this can be very situational. I love it in certain circumstances, but when it really matters it tends to get countered or even backfire if theres something great in an opponent's yard.

Insidious Dreams - think this is a fantastic card, but i'm not too sure it totally fits here. the main reason for that is the cmc. early game is when i need to be tutoring for key cards and being 4 cmc squarly put this into mid/late game. it is also inherently card disadvantage which is risky. Vampiric Tutor would probably be the more competetive choice.

Diabolic Intent - there have been a few times where i don't like this. a lot of times i really don't want to sac anything as my board presence is actually just fine.
Last edited by RowanKeltizar 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
WRBKaalia, Zenith Seeker - Certified Air Raid Material
WBElenda, the Dusk Rose - Drain and Gain
WRAurelia, the Warleader - Tokens/Equipment
URNiv-Mizzet, Parun - Controlled Burn primer
BRGHenzie, "Toolbox" Torre - Creature Feature
BRGSoul of Windgrace - Lands Matter
RGWGishath, Sun's Avatar - I'M YOUR DADDY
GWUBAtraxa, Praetors' Voice - Artifact Stax Beatdown
Budget Starter Decks
UBSygg, River Cutthroat
WU Shorikai, Genesis Engine
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RowanKeltizar
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Location: New Mexico
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 2 years ago

We keep getting amazing angels for this deck.

Liesa, Forgotten Archangel seems incredibly strong here, especially with Sneak Attack.

Enduring Angel // Angelic Enforcer - a lot of abilities here. I don't normally go for triple pip cards, but this is very strong. I'm not sure how easy it will be to flip the card, but it's possible with things like Doom Whisperer and Fire Covenant

Sigarda's Vanguard this is fairly efficient. I love that it has flash. I think it is stronger than Terror of Mount Velus. Probelm is, i don't know what to cut for it.

Moonveil Regent while we don't have that many multicolored cards in the deck, this can still be some great gas when we need it. Play a card, draw a card is a sweet ability. It can also be a way to consistently discard creatures for reanimation. At a hyper efficient cmc of 4 i think this might be worth trying out.

Jerren, Corrupted Bishop // Ormendahl, the Corrupter I love the Ormendahl side of this, but I think getting it to transform is too much of a hurdle. However, Jerren's abilities actually do play pretty well with Kaalia. I don't know if I have space for it.
WRBKaalia, Zenith Seeker - Certified Air Raid Material
WBElenda, the Dusk Rose - Drain and Gain
WRAurelia, the Warleader - Tokens/Equipment
URNiv-Mizzet, Parun - Controlled Burn primer
BRGHenzie, "Toolbox" Torre - Creature Feature
BRGSoul of Windgrace - Lands Matter
RGWGishath, Sun's Avatar - I'M YOUR DADDY
GWUBAtraxa, Praetors' Voice - Artifact Stax Beatdown
Budget Starter Decks
UBSygg, River Cutthroat
WU Shorikai, Genesis Engine
Image

User avatar
RowanKeltizar
Firemind
Posts: 532
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: New Mexico
Contact:

Post by RowanKeltizar » 2 years ago

Well, we didn't get as many demons as I was expecting from New Capenna. Still there are some cards worth mentioning.

Smuggler's Share Really? Every white deck ever is going to want this including this one.

Industrial Advancement I think this card has a lot of potential to be great in this deck. Which such a high density of fatties I can see this giving us some decent value.

Angel of Suffering Ok, this card is really spicy. Definitley going in. All my pain lands are going to mill me. It's worth buiding around for sure. Might throw Recoup in the deck just so I can flash back Living Death. Maybe a couple of ways to reshuffle my card. Very excited for this one, thanks WOTC!

Protection Racket This seems like a really decent card when you compare it to something like Phyrexian Arena. I don't like that this ensures you never get lands, but late game you don't want the lands anyway.

Sanctuary Warden worth mentioning I guess. I don't think this is worth 6 mana, but it's kind of an interesting card.

Giada, Font of Hope I'd be amiss if I didnt give this one a mention but I think it's too narrow for this deck.
WRBKaalia, Zenith Seeker - Certified Air Raid Material
WBElenda, the Dusk Rose - Drain and Gain
WRAurelia, the Warleader - Tokens/Equipment
URNiv-Mizzet, Parun - Controlled Burn primer
BRGHenzie, "Toolbox" Torre - Creature Feature
BRGSoul of Windgrace - Lands Matter
RGWGishath, Sun's Avatar - I'M YOUR DADDY
GWUBAtraxa, Praetors' Voice - Artifact Stax Beatdown
Budget Starter Decks
UBSygg, River Cutthroat
WU Shorikai, Genesis Engine
Image

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