Hazezon, Shaper of Sand - Traversing the Desert

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Post by WizardMN » 2 weeks ago

I have been wanting to build a naya deck for quite some time. I debated on building Rin and Seri, Inseparable and was even going to get the Secret Lair but it sold out far too quickly. I was also never really sold on that particular tribe or play style as it seemed to want to encourage Changelings which isn't the direction I would want to go.

I had built a Marisi, Breaker of the Coil deck for a league we did which worked out somewhat decently but I never got too far with it. And it wasn't exactly what I wanted.

I also used to have a Hazezon Tamar deck a long time ago which was fun so I had thought of that as an option as well. However, at 7 mana he is quite expensive and the format has sped up enough where a 7 mana Commander is tougher to make work. Also, the deck always felt like it was built around making Hazezon work rather than working with Hazezon. That is, there were a lot of sac outlets and things to try to get around his exile clause which seemed to create a lot of unwanted tension.

After looking at a lot of the options in Naya, of which there are a lot of decent ones, I settled on the other Hazezon: Hazezon, Shaper of Sand. This is still token based but in a way that is easier to make work without a huge drawback. Here is the list I am starting with:

Hazezon, Shaper of Sand

General (1)

Artifacts (3)

Approximate Total Cost:

I am trying to go fairly heavy into tokens of all different kinds if they make sense which means that there might be an argument for including Tendershoot Dryad and its artifact version.

However, I have tried to tie most tokens to lands in some way. I have moved away from some landfall options, like Emeria Angel, but Squirrel Wrangler and Goblin Trenches work in conjunction with Hazezon by getting lands into the yard to replay.

On the flip side of this, I am not sure how much I like Doubling Season and Anointed Procession. I do like the creature based versions but during testing it seems like it is taking too much time off to get one of those down. Especially when they are just going to eat a removal spell. I have them here for now, but I am leaning towards cutting them eventually.

The other thing worth pointing out is that this is trying to play as many lands per turn as possible, So Exploration, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, and similar make an appearance here. I especially like Mina and Denn, Wildborn since they let me pick up deserts to replay to get more tokens.

I don't have much in the way of playing lands from the yard other than Hazezon and Ancient Greenwarden. The latter is mostly here for its ability working with triggers anyway. This is because I have found that I don't often have much for lands in the yard because Hazezon more or less takes care of them. At least, he takes care of the ones I want.

Card draw is another avenue I am trying to finalize. I have a few options that draw based on the number of creatures but I don't really like them because the intent is to create a bunch of creatures which means I could draw half my deck at some point but may not be able to use everything. So I just end up discarding 30+ cards. I could work around this by adding something like Cryptolith Rite but I am not there yet.

Things like Nissa, Vital Force and Huatli, Radiant Champion play into existing themes to get me cards. Toski, Bearer of Secrets is also one of my favorites so far to get cards. I likely end up cutting Collective Unconscious at some point.

Another really good card is Jetmir, Nexus of Revels as he can really beef up my token army to allow for swinging for lethal. I probably should have Akroma's Will for a similar effect.

And, finally, Impact Tremors, Warleader's Call, and Purphoros, God of the Forge are ways to get a lot of non-combat damage in as needed. Then hopefully I can swing with a smaller army to finish people off. I do have Goblin Bombardment for a similar effect but where I can sac all my creatures to get rid of things. It might end up being less impactful than I would like so who knows where I land with that.

I don't have a lot of removal options right now so I might add more in later depending on what i think is ultimately needed.
Last edited by WizardMN 1 week ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

No Ruin Ghost?

I've been having great success with Case of the Locked Hothouse in decks that want to make more land drops. Just super good.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 weeks ago

I honestly didn't even know about Ruin Ghost. That seems like a reasonable addition.

I looked into Case of the Locked Hothouse as a second Oracle of Mul Daya. I decided against it primarily due to being 4 mana (even though that is what Oracle costs) but if I continue down the route of some of the cuts I mentioned, it could fit into one of those spots. It does add the ability to cast creatures from the top in addition to lands which can be helpful. I should look into that closer.

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Post by pokken » 2 weeks ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 weeks ago
I honestly didn't even know about Ruin Ghost. That seems like a reasonable addition.

I looked into Case of the Locked Hothouse as a second Oracle of Mul Daya. I decided against it primarily due to being 4 mana (even though that is what Oracle costs) but if I continue down the route of some of the cuts I mentioned, it could fit into one of those spots. It does add the ability to cast creatures from the top in addition to lands which can be helpful. I should look into that closer.
enchantments too :) and it doesn't expose your top card which is a real problem.

The major issue relative to oracle is that oracle can help you find the 7th land but hazezon should fix most of your land finding problems I'd think.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 weeks ago

I am likely not going to have a lot of enchantments but it is still relevant. Not revealing the top card is certainly a benefit.

That is a fair point about the 7th land but it likely ends up not mattering. It shouldn't be too hard with the rest of the cards to get to that many lands as it is. I might be too low on lands at 38 for some of this, but hopefully the tutors and card draw handles that.

I added those two and pulled out Titania, Voice of Gaea and Jinnie Fay, Jetmir's Second. Titania isn't really doing much. She is good when I sac lands but doesn't really advance the game plan. And Jinnie Fay was here mostly when I still had the original Hazezon as a way to ensure I didn't have Sand Warriors. I don't think she is really needed anymore.

It is interesting that Outlaws of Thunder Junction apparently has some Deserts coming out with it as well which can help with the mana base and make Hazezon more consistent. Hopefully there are some good utility ones.

I am debating whether I want to keep Scute Swarm. Not necessarily because it is bad but perhaps because it is so good that is tends to crash Magic Online. And if I get 2 or more replacement effects on the board, it is a pain in the ass to have to choose the replacement effect order for each trigger.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 week ago

Finally decided to play a game with this deck. As such, I also updated the decklist in the first post with the first real iteration of the deck. I will keep track of changes from here on out. This game was against The Ur-Dragon and Obuun, Mul Daya Ancestor. There was a 4th person in the game but they did nothing beyond play a single Reliquary Tower and then pass every turn. I don't know what the deal was there but they didn't do anything though they did help keep my board alive, as described below.

Start of Summary

I started with a few lands and a single desert. I was able to get Hazezon down on turn 3 followed by the Desert and Bennie Bracks, Zoologist on turn 4. Next turn I played a fetch land and cast Titania, Protector of Argoth to get it back and get a token from her and a card from Bennie Bracks.

Obuun had a Geode Rager and Goaded my creatures. This is where the other player helped me as I was able to attack them to keep my creatures alive. Had I attacked the other person, my creatures would have died as they had indestructible creatures. The Ur-Dragon player was interestingly playing a Changeling deck (more or less) with things like Manaweft Sliver and Knight Exemplar (which is what was giving their stuff indestructible).

I did get Purphoros, God of the Forge down as well which got in about 10-12 damage overall.

During this, I was able to keep getting lands. Knight of the Reliquary helped here to get a Desert and Dust Bowl likely would have helped eventually to let me play lands with Hazezon. However, Ur-Dragon attempted to cast Damn to which I responded with Teferi's Protection. Next turn I played Moraug, Fury of Akoum and then got 4 lands drops with Knight (getting a fetch land), Wood Elves, and my normal land drop. I could have gotten another with Ruin Ghost but I didn't need to. That ended the game since neither players had blockers. Obuun had theirs blown up and Ur-Dragon was tapped out from attacking me.

End of Summary

Overall, the deck played very much like I wanted it to. The main issue is the lack of Deserts this game but the rest of the deck was able to shore that up a bit. As mentioned, Thunder Junction should help a little by giving me a few more Desert options. Ruin Ghost seemed good even though I didn't actually use it and Purphoros, God of the Forge helped out a lot here as well to get in a bunch of incidental damage.

I am still debating on cutting Scute Swarm and I feel I might need some more spot removal to help deal with things like Geode Rager. It could have cost me a lot had I not had a defenseless opponent to attack. Not something that is always going to happen of course, but there is always going to be something I want to remove.

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Post by WizardMN » 5 days ago

I decided to try a few cuts. These changes are primarily meant to cut cards and see how the deck works without them. I added a few for the same reason but these additions are definitely not meant to be final.

I have talked about a few of these in earlier posts but I decided to finally cut them out. Anointed Procession and Doubling Season might not be all that necessary. Collective Unconscious is expensive and more than I might need with all the other card draw in the deck. Bombardment might be the toughest cut as it seems like a really good card here but I am not sure how much I really want to be sacrificing my stuff to kill other things one damage at a time.

Huatli's emblem is really good but, as with Unconscious, I might have enough other card draw. And the other abilities aren't good enough to keep her here. Erinis usually doesn't have a lot of targets anyway. Hazezon can get Deserts himself and "normal" land drops aren't all that relevant. And Scute Swarm is honestly primarily due to potential issues on Magic Online with it crashing the client.

The additions were just cards I could think of. I think I ultimately want Get Lost as a removal spell but I don't have one online yet so I went with Gift and Beast Within. The three tutors I want to try to see if they actually matter. I am not sure if they will as I really want lands more often than creatures but with things like Bane of Progress, it gives me a bit of a silver bullet to things. Dryad Arbor is here mostly because of GSZ.

I am hoping to run a few tests with these cuts to see how well they work. I am thinking the deck will still be effective. I can potentially see wanting Craterhoof Behemoth and/or Moonshaker Cavalry as ways to end the game also. I am not a huge fan of these cards but there is the argument that if I am allowed to build up an army, one-shotting people with creatures is fair game. Not everyone feels that way so I am hesitant to just throw them in.

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Post by pokken » 4 days ago

What do you think about Nylea's Intervention? Feels like getting a grip full of deserts might be the best thing you can do with X mana.

I was also thinking and I suspect that Titania's Command will outperform Tempt with Discovery a pretty significant amount of the time given that it pays a premium to enter untapped and you're going to primarily get things that enter tapped (though ofc not all deserts do, many do). More mana of course, but more reliable and also pumps the team.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 days ago

I think you have a good point on both Intervention and Command and I agree Command might be worth it over Tempt. I do like that Intervention can get lands to hand before Hazezon comes down (maybe after he gets destroyed for the second or third time) whereas Command works best when Hazezon is already on the field. Still workable as that is what I want to happen, but a little more limiting in terms of sequencing. Granted, the rest of the deck can make it work where I sac those lands to let me play them from the yard later so maybe not really a significant difference.

I can give either one a try. I think Intervention in over Reap and Sow. It doesn't put the land(s) on the field but either costs 1 less or gets me 1 more land for the cost which is fine. It also has the extra mode if I happen to be getting hit with fliers.

Command I would like to try as it looks decent. 6 mana is a lot though which makes it right on the edge if I haven't already been ramping. And, even if I have, it can be a bit tougher. But I will give it a try to see what it can do. I have thought of some other changes too so here is what I am thinking:

Reap and Sow and Harrow are the cuts for Intervention and Command. As mentioned, I will be watching Command to see if the mana cost is just too high but get 2 lands and buff the team isn't that bad for the cost.

Realm Seekers is a card I really like but the mana cost involved is just much for what it does. There are better options and I feel like it is getting to a point where I don't need 9 mana to get 1 land. I guess this is the swap for Growing Rites of Itlimoc // Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun which is a second Gaea's Cradle and should nearly always transform while also getting me a card in hand.

Mountain is a swap for Gaea's Cradle which can be extraordinarily good in a deck like this.

Hour of Reckoning is a card I have tried to make work and it never does. Too many other tokens are floating around and the two games I played where it might have done something, the opponents had Avenger of Zendikar which let them stay ahead of me even after cast this. Hour of Revelation and Vanquish the Horde are just better to reset and start anew.

Generous Gift and Beast Within were, as mentioned, just placeholders until I could think of better cards. One of these is one of the sweepers mentioned above and I figured Sevinne's Reclamation is a good option for this deck. I am debating on adding Sun Titan as well to allow me the ability to rebuild a bit as well. I have always liked Sun Titan so I might be able to find another card to remove to make room.

I might have gone down too much on the card draw so I will keep an eye on that. Perhaps Court of Ardenvale is an option? Let Monarch reign and try to get what I can out of it? I am also thinking that the Surveil Lands might not be what I want here. Or I can cut a couple basics for the Bicycle lands. I have enough ways to get lands to hand and getting a Cycler to then draw a card isn't the worst use of it. I do have a couple more basics I could cut as I am sitting at 9. But with new Deserts potentially incoming, I can't go down too far on them so the Surveil lands are the next on the chopping block. I might try cutting 2 basics for Bicycle lands (since we don't have enemy Bicycles yet) for now and then see how things look when the new Deserts are available.

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Post by pokken » 3 days ago

Nice updates.

Oh I know this is gonna sound obvious but what about Gamble for Life from the Loam?

Loam cycling deserts should be a solid backup ca plan and gambling for a desert feels kinda fun and thematic.

Regarding monarch I feel like this deck is likely soft to fliers to want to introduce it.

Could also consider some of the little bro ca like welcoming vamp and bygone bishop (who I really like because having clues hanging around is nice). And of course tireless tracker.

Worst case could think about etutor or stone forge for skillclamp - but frankly I would consider abandoning skullclamp in this deck for more keeper of fables type crap. As much as I recognize clamp is a bonkers card it has the downside of slowing your combat clock a lot and chewing up mana. It is a play pattern I think probably gets repetitive and old over time.

Another angle worth maybe thinking on is cryptolith rite, song of freyalise and elven chorus. Which I of course say in the same breath as cut skullclamp but hey. Can't be consistent all the time :D

I think it might be worth thinking about a Sword of Forge and Frontier too. Extra land drop with ca is good. I've had very nice results with playing it as a bad copy of exploration and its extra nice in token deck.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 days ago

Loam and Gamble probably isn't the worst idea. I am starting to get a little tight on spots as I like what I have but that doesn't mean everything I have is solid or irreplaceable. Loam can help out a lot, especially with all my other "additional land drop" cards to help me ramp if nothing else. And yeah, Gamble for a Desert can be good. I am finding that if I only have 1 Desert (or, god forbid, none) the deck just takes too much to get going so guaranteeing myself a Desert for one mana isn't the worst idea.

That is a fair point on Monarch. Welcoming Vampire, Bygone Bishop, and Tireless Tracker are good options for card draw. I don't think I value Clues as high as I should and Vampire should trigger nearly every turn. I would think about Tocasia's Welcome but I do prefer things to be on creatures if possible. Also, they can all be retrieved with Sun Titan or Sevinne's Reclamation which can be relevant.

Speaking of Tireless Tracker, I wonder if I am overvaluing Tireless Provisioner. The Treasures are absolutely nice to have, but I might need to put a bigger focus on getting cards to play versus have the mana to play them. I am likely getting enough lands that the Treasures may become superfluous? Not sure where I land on that yet, but it is a line I am thinking about.

I had thought about how much I wanted to do with Skullclamp in terms of tutoring it out. Enlightened Tutor has the added benefit of getting some of my more valuable Enchantments as well so doing that along with Skullclamp could be nice. I do get your point about Skullclamp and I have certainly found some of that to be true in other decks. But until I get comfortable with the card draw in the deck without it, it is probably a necessary evil at this point. I do agree that it can become repetitive and that is something I try to be cognizant of in most of my builds. But sometimes it is worth it.

I am still debating on things like Cryptolith Rite as I am not sure they are super helpful. They may become so as I figure out my card draw situation though so it is something to keep an eye on. I do think I think Song of Freyalise the most of those three. It offers the ramp (if only temporarily) but then can offer a way to actually close out a game which is nice. I will think on it.

That is a good callout on Sword. I had thought of it way back when I originally started the build and just decided to go a different direction. My concern is more that it costs 5 mana but perhaps that is fine. It should be more a mid to late game play anyway to basically help me get over the hump. It, however, doesn't really let me top deck to get back into the game. Though, I suppose, perhaps not much does.

I just played a game with Sun Titan and Heroic Intervention added and Moraug, Fury of Akoum and Ancient Greenwarden cut. I didn't get either card and I ran out of cards halfway through after emptying my hand to an early Exploration. Which meant I was in topdeck mode pretty much all game. Not a great place to be. Vanquish the Horde helped keep me on par with others, but it really wasn't enough.

It is one of the main issues i tend to have with Exploration: to be really good, I need a bunch of lands early. But, if I have a bunch of lands early, I don't have much else going on. Exploration is still good in the mid game when I can get an engine going for playing deserts from the yard. That might just tie into Tireless Tracker being a bit better.

At one point I topdecked Regal Force with nothing on board which was disheartening to say the least. It was countered anyway but it still likely wasn't going to do much.

It is interesting to note that this game included a deck consisting primarily of fliers which made is extremely tough to actually do anything. Which ties into your comment of Monarch not being good for this reason.

I will try to evaluate a few things and see if I can make some room for different cards and try to work out the topdeck mode issue.

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Post by pokken » 3 days ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 days ago
Speaking of Tireless Tracker, I wonder if I am overvaluing Tireless Provisioner. The Treasures are absolutely nice to have, but I might need to put a bigger focus on getting cards to play versus have the mana to play them. I am likely getting enough lands that the Treasures may become superfluous? Not sure where I land on that yet, but it is a line I am thinking about.
Yeah I never really play provisioner. I don't tend to want decks that need that much mana that playing 10+ lands or whatever isn't sufficient. The choke point on lands decks is usually cards not mana.
WizardMN wrote:
3 days ago
That is a good callout on Sword. I had thought of it way back when I originally started the build and just decided to go a different direction. My concern is more that it costs 5 mana but perhaps that is fine. It should be more a mid to late game play anyway to basically help me get over the hump. It, however, doesn't really let me top deck to get back into the game. Though, I suppose, perhaps not much does.
Sword of Forge and Frontier has essentially draw 2 attached to it, you can just slap it on your commander and go to town. Last time I played it I drew 6 (exiled 6) and wound up playing 4 of them :D
WizardMN wrote:
3 days ago
I just played a game with Sun Titan and Heroic Intervention added and Moraug, Fury of Akoum and Ancient Greenwarden cut. I didn't get either card and I ran out of cards halfway through after emptying my hand to an early Exploration. Which meant I was in topdeck mode pretty much all game. Not a great place to be. Vanquish the Horde helped keep me on par with others, but it really wasn't enough.

It is one of the main issues i tend to have with Exploration: to be really good, I need a bunch of lands early. But, if I have a bunch of lands early, I don't have much else going on. Exploration is still good in the mid game when I can get an engine going for playing deserts from the yard. That might just tie into Tireless Tracker being a bit better.
Yep, that's the perennial problem with extra land drops, they're functionally card disadvantage (since you spend cards that do nothing else to let you put lands out faster), so you've got to either fill your bin or your hand. Sometimes they wind up being about Loam because of this.

You may want to consider trying a handful of CA glue cards - Sword of Forge and Frontier is a good one, but you can always just jam Wrenn's Resolve and Reckless Impulse which I've had really good luck with. Sylvan Library is a decent one too of course but again a struggle I've been having with that one is 1) the life loss, and 2) the not getting cards now :D if you topdeck a library you're two turns from attacking with anything you draw.

An issue with Hazezon is in general that the desert count can't be high enough for general bin filling to work, so you almost have to tutor for deserts en masse which is tricky. stuf like Satyr Wayfinder and Mulch can be OK, but the playable list of deserts is pretty short right now :D

I'm hoping this deck can really evolve with all the new deserts coming out.

--
WizardMN wrote:
3 days ago
At one point I topdecked Regal Force with nothing on board which was disheartening to say the least. It was countered anyway but it still likely wasn't going to do much.
This is gonna sound ridiculous but man I have just been avoiding as much board/hand position dependent card advantage as I can. I've been finding in my God-Eternal Oketra deck I draw Bennie Bracks, Zoologist on an empty board and I need to draw yet another creature to get the chain going, and it's quite annoying.

To a lesser extent i think you can play around hand dependent card advantage by not over-extending -- so more The Great Henge and less Shamanic Revelation. But even then sometimes you're forced to overextend to try to survive :D

That whole idea is part of the genesis of my Xenagos, God of Revels project currently, which is that, I think, you have a lot of nongames if too many of your card advantage sources don't help you topdeck. You have games where you topdeck Return of the Wildspeaker with no creatures. And of course you have games where you draw 17 cards and go on to win triumphantly, but it's infrequent (in my experience) that that isn't a bit excessive.

So I've been trying to run more stuff like Harmonize and Wrenn's Resolve and at least in Xenagos it is working really well.

(re: card advantage - kind of a low key new card I haven't seen many people playing is Ignite the Future. I've really enjoyed it. It's quite gambly, but when it hits it sure hits. )

in God-Eternal Oketra I am struggling tbh. White just doesn't have that much. So thinking about trying some stuff that survives board wipes like Tocasia's Welcome or that can resuscitate from the bin like Dusk // Dawn and Return to the Ranks.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 days ago

I am going to try cutting Provisioner and adding Tracker and Forge and Frontier. As you said, there is a pretty delicate balance of having mana and having cards so scaling back the mana in favor of cards can possibly get back to being more centered on that scale.

I have thought of things like Wrenn's Resolve due to their effectiveness in Pia Nalaar. I wonder if I might like Rob the Archives a bit better. It requires that I play them this turn, like Sword, but also let me potentially "draw" 4 if I have a creature out. I won't necessarily always have a creature but having a slightly higher ceiling could be useful. If I go that route anyway.

I think I am fine with the tutoring aspect as I don't much care for general bin filling anyway. And in this deck, I would want to try to capitalize on that more by adding some sort of recursion for things other than lands. I think I like the way it is playing so far. But perhaps I will need to look at some more of those "glue" type cards later on. I am still keeping Loam and Gamble as options in the back of my mind. As I solidify some of the other elements of the deck, these might make it in here eventually.

I can see that for sure. Idol of Oblivion is another one that can't get us out of topdeck mode. But Tracker would be similar. I am not opposed to trying to minimize the topdeck misses in this regard but I don't think we can eliminate them all. I did think about something like Harmonize. I used to run it in Xenagos and it is still probably the best pure CA card that also works in top deck mode in green. I have yet to even draw Shamanic Revelation so I will probably just swap them. Ignite the Future is one that I have in Pia Nalaar because it can be really useful, especially late game. And it is basically "draw 3" for 4 mana like Harmonize is. With the added mode later of "draw 3 and play them for free". I might give that a try.

I did think of The Great Henge but since my mana is, by design anyway, meant to be working towards tokens, I didn't know how good it was really going to be. I do only have 20 something creatures after all which might be a low creature count to make it work. Of course, when you mentioned things like Dusk//Dawn, I immediately thought of something like Creeping Renaissance but that too might have the same issue since creatures are most likely what I want to get back. But Renaissance can also get lands or enchantments which might be relevant.

I suppose I don't have a lot of creature recursion so maybe if I am adding Welcoming Vampire, Tocasia's Welcome should be slated for inclusion as well.

Based on this conversation, and previous ones, here is what I am going to try right now:

Most of these were talked above but Rampant Growth for Sakura is mostly because of Sun Titan. Regal Force, Shamanic Revelation, Idol, and Nissa are all cut for Tireless Tracker, Harmonize, Tocasia's Welcome, Welcoming Vampire, Rob the Archives, and Ignite the Future. I am leaving in Bennie Bracks since it works on the same basic principle as Vampire and Tocasia's Welcome. I suppose I am sort of splitting the difference on cards that need some board interaction since I am cutting Idol. We will see if the straight card "draw" cards can help shore some of this stuff up.

Zuran Orb is cut for being "do nothing" in the sense that the life gain isn't really why its here. I wanted to sac lands and it may come back eventually depending on how much I lose on cutting it, but it felt fairly low impact that I wanted to open that space up for testing other things.

GSZ (and, by extension, Dryad Arbor) is being cut since it only gets green creatures. I don't often find I want to use it for early ramp and I would generally want the ability to find Vampire or Sun Titan or something like that. Arbor was here mostly for its interaction with GSZ so cutting it frees up slots for Deserts later. I added a Forest for now and cut a Mountain and Plains for the Bicycle lands.

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Post by pokken » 3 days ago

Yeah I didn't mean henge as a specific include more of a general comment.

I think rob is waaaaay worse because it's only this turn. The resolve and impulse last til next turn. This is awesome.

Generally think that is a strong changeset!

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Post by WizardMN » 3 days ago

Fair enough. I do think Henge is one of the better card draw type cards one could include in a lot of situations. It gets out of control fast.

I can understand the idea of having an extra turn to cast the cards being a fairly high benefit. But I can see the other side where I need a card now and seeing 4 cards is better than 2. And since this is typically a deck that can generate a bunch of mana, I can see being able to cast both, or all 4, cards in most cases.

Of course, that does mean there is very little in the way of being able to plan out the cards better. I cast them now or not at all so if it would be better to wait a turn, I can't do that. I am going to stick with Rob the Archives for now since I do like the potential of 4 cards over 2 but I see your point and I will have to see where I land on that once I playtest a bit more.

Thanks! I did play a game with this new list and it worked out really well in general. Up until the UR player comboed off with Thousand-Year Storm and Expropriate.... I think it was like turn 6 or so too.

Anyway, I had this great plan with Nylea's Intervention to grab some much needed Deserts and I had Oracle of Mul Daya and Dryad of the Ilysian Grove on the field to give me more land drops and Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines to double up on triggers. With Purphoros, God of the Forge and Warleader's Call I might have been able to win the game. I didn't add up all my mana but a transformed Growing Rites of Itlimoc // Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun might have been enough for everything.

Anyway, I will try some more and see where things land. I am liking these changes so far.

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Post by pokken » 3 days ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 days ago
Thanks! I did play a game with this new list and it worked out really well in general. Up until the UR player comboed off with Thousand-Year Storm and Expropriate.... I think it was like turn 6 or so too.
I been adding Pyroblast to most of my red decks these days :D
WizardMN wrote:
3 days ago
Anyway, I had this great plan with Nylea's Intervention to grab some much needed Deserts and I had Oracle of Mul Daya and Dryad of the Ilysian Grove on the field to give me more land drops and Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines to double up on triggers. With Purphoros, God of the Forge and Warleader's Call I might have been able to win the game. I didn't add up all my mana but a transformed Growing Rites of Itlimoc // Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun might have been enough for everything.
that sounds like a nice setup!

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Post by WizardMN » 3 days ago

I will think on Pyroblast. It likely would have helped in that game, assuming I had it in hand. But that does assume I would have had it in hand which isn't a guarantee obviously.

I played another game and this one worked out better. I won't go into too much detail but I was able to get Hazezon down with Knight of the Reliquary and a couple cards to increase land drops. At one point I cast Nylea's Intervention for X=9 thanks to Gaea's Cradle and I got 7 Deserts. I should have left the other mana alone as I sort of forgot about my Cycling lands and I could have cycled a bunch of stuff to turn into cards.

But I discarded some Deserts and then next turn I cast Archmage's Charm to get me Purphoros, God of the Forge. I then played 3 Deserts from the yard, used Squirrel Wrangler and Dunes of the Dead as part of this to get more tokens and ultimately ended up killing the table with Purphoros. One opponent was at 6 life but the other two were at around 30 or so.

This was a great way to win and didn't rely on combat which was nice. I am starting to think though that Impact Tremors and maybe even Warleader's Call are superfluous. I have so many ways to get Purphoros and he is the better option anyway that I might want to focus on him for this line. Warleader's Call is nice in that it also buffs the team which can combine with Jetmir, Nexus of Revels to get in damage in combat. I am thinking Ogre Battledriver might be good here too to give me the combat damage line as well.

Either way, things went well. Granted, I lost Toski, Bearer of Secrets right away as my source of card draw (I did get 3 cards off of it) and there was no further interaction against my board so I mostly went unchecked. Had a board wipe occurred, I would have been in a very bad spot as I didn't get much for card draw options and Archmage's Charm wouldn't get me much. Maybe Tireless Tracker and trying to rebuild from there? Not really sure what would have happened but luckily I didn't need to find out.

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Post by pokken » 2 days ago

Nice. I think Nylea's Intervention really is great gas for this deck. Get a bunch of deserts, cycle them, play them. Solid.

I think between Purph and Finale of Devastation you probably have enough ways to close it out. I suspect Shared Animosity would be the most efficient alternate wincon but it lacks haste - but it has good sequencing where you can untap with an unassuming 6-7 dudes and then blast for 50. (does have a benefit of being titanable too:D)

The more I think on this deck I wonder how many creatures you really need. Tutoring helps but you aren't spending a lot of energy recurring them, and you can make so damn many sand warriors. Chances are good something like Felidar Retreat will win the game a lot more triumphantly than random dudes.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 days ago

I agree on Intervention. It is fairly flexible and can offer options to refill a hand as needed.

I would agree with those two being the main win cons in the deck. It is tough to get in damage with just 1/1s. I do like Jetmir, Nexus of Revels still as well though I haven't won with him on the field yet. Shared Animosity is certainly an option and the sequencing is definitely a benefit. I am not sure how much else is out there that can really buff the army as well as something like that.

I think you have a good point on creatures being less relevant. Retreat actually seems like a reasonable option as well. As with the discussion above regarding Tocasia's Welcome being safe from creature wraths, Retreat also gives me a potential way to rebuild after a wrath (that didn't also blow up my enchantments).

I am not sure that there is much for creatures that I really want to cut though. Most of the ones I have still benefit the overall game plan or give me options for games where I might not be able to make as many Sand Warriors. Interestingly, Bygone Bishop might be worth cutting. I never really checked before, but I do only have 13 creatures that can trigger it.

Perhaps Titania, Protector of Argoth and maybe even Bennie Bracks, Zoologist can be cut. I like both but I can see finding something else in their spot.

For now, I think I am going to try Felidar Retreat over Impact Tremors and Shared Animosity over Skullclamp and see how the games play out.

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Post by pokken » 2 days ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 days ago
Bygone Bishop might be worth cutting. I never really checked before, but I do only have 13 creatures that can trigger it.
Man I apologize for bishop, in my head it was "creature 3 or less ETBs" like Tocasia's Welcome template. It's so hard to keep track of all that!
WizardMN wrote:
2 days ago
Perhaps Titania, Protector of Argoth and maybe even Bennie Bracks, Zoologist can be cut. I like both but I can see finding something else in their spot.
I think Titania is interesting. It's so strong, but on the flipside requires a sac outlet to really be good and you don't have that many ways to sacrifice lands; so a 3 part combo of sac outlet, titania plus more lands/your commander feels awkward. Landfall effects feel more likely to be consistent.

Bennie Bracks, Zoologist is really strong, but you don't have that many ways to make deserts enter at instant speed so it's much less good. I think he'll underperform Harmonize at a high rate :D
WizardMN wrote:
2 days ago
For now, I think I am going to try Felidar Retreat over Impact Tremors and Shared Animosity over Skullclamp and see how the games play out.
These seem like solid changes to me. I think you will find retreat to be *very* good. it drastically overperformed my expectations in Ephara, God of the Polis. In which vein it reminds me that this deck likely can support Field of the Dead and it would help get over the top and recover from sweepers. But, field is kind of samey in the vein of Skullclamp so I could understand not wanting to run it.

in Ephara, I was able to in one game play fetch crack a fetch and swing with sun titan then crack that subsequent fetch to lethal the board with just a handful of zombies and kraken tokens. :D Nobody expects that from Ephara.

(I should note it is quite tiresome to track this offline; i had to resort to using tokens with the # of counters and # of dudes on them; but since it's usually at the end of the game it's not bothering me so much)

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Post by WizardMN » 2 days ago

pokken wrote:
2 days ago

Man I apologize for bishop, in my head it was "creature 3 or less ETBs" like Tocasia's Welcome template. It's so hard to keep track of all that!
No worries. I should have checked it more closely when I added it as I too thought it was on enter :)
Bennie Bracks, Zoologist is really strong, but you don't have that many ways to make deserts enter at instant speed so it's much less good. I think he'll underperform Harmonize at a high rate :D
I do like Bennie Bracks but yeah, it is likely going to be only drawing 1 or 2 cards before it goes away. I have started wondering how much Dawn of a New Age is going to draw me as well. The nice thing about that is that it is cheap and just works on its own once it is down (assuming creatures on the board at that time).

In terms of ways to get Instant timing Deserts to enter, one way is Crop Rotation which I am considering cutting. I don't have a huge selection of silver bullet lands (though I did consider Glacial Chasm) so I am more often just using it to get a Desert. Not bad but maybe not entirely worth a slot.
These seem like solid changes to me. I think you will find retreat to be *very* good. it drastically overperformed my expectations in Ephara, God of the Polis. In which vein it reminds me that this deck likely can support Field of the Dead and it would help get over the top and recover from sweepers. But, field is kind of samey in the vein of Skullclamp so I could understand not wanting to run it.

(I should note it is quite tiresome to track this offline; i had to resort to using tokens with the # of counters and # of dudes on them; but since it's usually at the end of the game it's not bothering me so much)
I could see wanting to get Field of the Dead in this deck. Honestly, it likely only feels samey in the same sense that Hazezon feels samey. That is, I can't completely avoid repetition if I want to give the deck a chance to actually win. I might think on it and see what happens.

Offline tracking is definitely something I have thought about. It is a small reason why I didn't mind Scute Swarm going and is one of the reasons I haven't done a lot with counters overall. Retreat obviously changes that but I am sure I can figure out the logistics if/when I get to play in person.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 days ago

I got another game in and it went alright, but not great. I had a huge army at one point even with Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire trying to beat me down (fliers are becoming a real concern). I was able to get in about 27 damage back at Vaevictus thanks to Shefet Dunes. Unfortunately, they cast Kenrith's Transformation so I couldn't replay it and that let me get them to 1 life.

I would have lost next turn to them except another person cast Massacre Wurm which killed me (and Vaevictus) first.

So, there is definitely more to look at in regards to being able to swing with the army. Shared Animosity was definitely the card I was hoping for. Finale of Devastation did come up on top of my library but I had no way to draw it so I milled it looking for something else. I didn't have a creature that would have buffed the team to allow for a win though. A creature would have been relevant since I was able to bounce Growing Rites of Itlimoc // Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun with Ruin Ghost after tapping it for mana to then get the ETB trigger again. I only got Sun Titan so that wasn't any help. But with Itlimoc and Chord, having a creature to affect the board wouldn't be the worst option.

This leads me down the path of Craterhoof Behemoth and/or Moonshaker Cavalry. The particular sequence above might also show that I need more card draw. I actually would have had a land to cycle to get Finale if Vaevictus hadn't made me sac something to then put Scattered Groves on the field. So, this all could just be a poor matchup with some unlucky hits.

I do think I might need to start looking into something for fliers though. I don't know what that would be (and Nylea's Intervention is something) or if I just need to accept that my primary way of dealing with fliers is just going to be to wrath the board.

All in all though, I am obviously not going to win every game and sometimes I just won't get to the cards I need. In this game, everything else still worked out well as I had 12 Sand Warriors and a couple Zombies from Hour of Promise. It just went too fast for me to really do anything with them to actually close out the game. And of course Massacre Wurm is almost certainly going to be an auto-lose if I don't have Teferi's Protection in hand.

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Post by pokken » 2 days ago

Sandwurm Convergence might be a funny on theme answer to fliers but it's pretty pricey mana wise. :D

I have lately been playing Elder Gargaroth and Vorinclex // The Grand Evolution and these two have been great at deterring fliers. Not really great in this deck which might be more interested in
Ulvenwald Hydra

New vclex actually is great for your deck in some ways since it can get you two cycling lands and can flip to mill a lot.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 days ago

Convergence would be really nice to include but yeah, 8 mana is just too much. I might just have to accept that I am going to be weak to fliers in general. Unless I want to add something to give all my creatures Reach or something.

I had thought of Elder Gargaroth but it doesn't do a lot here. Hydra is one that I did include at one point but found that it wasn't doing everything I wanted. Vorinclex actually is an interesting option though. You are correct that it gets me a form of card draw if needed or even just land drops if needed. No Deserts but the other cyclers are good to grab.

I am going to try these changes:
3/26/2024
Approximate Total Cost:

I decided to cut Titania for Vorinclex. And I am thinking of getting rid of Crop Rotation and decided to try out Faithless Looting. It isn't card advantage but I am sometimes in situations where I am fine with discarding excess cards that aren't doing anything. It also works well with Hazezon if I discard Deserts. Probably something that might not be great in the end but 1 mana, or 3 mana, to filter can help find answers. We will see how well it works in the end.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 days ago

Ugh.....

I played a game online and got to 9 poison counters but was able to stabilize. I was lucky that another player took out the Infect creature and then I drew into Hour of Revelation a little later to reset everything. The infect player was playing Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief which led to a lot of Mutates which meant keeping Enchantments on the board was nearly impossible. Luckily I am not super heavy into them but Shared Animosity did get blown up early before I could swing with it.

However, I was able to stabilize and used Chord of Calling for Jetmir when I had a bunch of creatures on the field. Vorinclex transformed to get me Eternal Witness and Oracle of Mul Daya. Ivy blew up the enchantment before seeing the milled cards so E Wit just got back Vorinclex and I did it again. This time I got Sun Titan and Ojer Taq. Titan got back Shared Animosity.

I was able to do all this thanks to Gaea's Cradle. Which both opponents could have blown up but didn't for some reason.

I then swung out at both players. The other player had Teferi's Protection so I would need to wait a turn. But the triggers from Shared Animosity (which was about 25 triggers) crashed the Client and we never actually got to see the end of the game.

In any case, since I also had Teferi's Protection in hand and Ivy only had 2 mana open, it was almost certain they would have died and I likely would have gotten through the second time at the other player.

This worked out very well. Vorinclex did get me cyclers and Realms Uncharted also got me cyclers which turned into valuable cards later on. Mondrak was nice to double the tokens as well. There might be an argument to be made that I should have grabbed Purphoros with Chord but I wanted to see what Jetmir could do. And I did only have 1 land drop to make per turn which would have meant that Purphoros could do 8 damage to each player. Vorinclex getting me more creatures to get land drops would have let me win but it wasn't a guarantee. Actually, Sun Titan for Shared Animosity might have been more reliable but Jetmir ensured things couldn't be chump blocked quite as easily.

Anyway, MTGO crashing was a bit unfortunate but getting to that point showed things are certainly coming together a bit better. I still wouldn't mind trying to find one more source of card draw that can help me out. Faithless Looting actually did help a bit here as it got me Hour of Revelation and Ignite the Future gave me some good options as well.

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