Phelddagrif: Show Weakness to Hide Your Strength

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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 4 years ago

Finally have my own build of this, which my wife (the better player of the two of us) has been piloting. The deck is fascinating and beautiful to watch in action. It so completely baffled our playgroup, especially in the hands of my wife (who tends to favor heavy tribal beatdown lists). Seeing it win was glorious, and as Dirk says, seeing it lose has clear logic to it - with 20/20 hindsight you know the exact turn and exact mistake that ended things.

Agreed on the cards from Ikoria so far - only Fierce Guardianship is worth discussion and seems like it is probably in the top 20 but not top 10 for counterspells in the list. Wilt is interesting, but for single-target disenchant effects I think we'll continue to favor the extra flexibility of Return to Nature, the finality Krosan Grip, and the exiling of Forsake the Worldly; I also don't know that I'd ever run a fourth disenchant when Beast Within, Generous Gift, and Oblation are on the table.

I also wanted to let you know we tried Whirlwind Denial going back a release, and your fears were well-founded; the card moldered dead in hand almost every game and got cut for Stifle.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Well boys, we've got our first big breakthrough for Phelddagrif, with just a couple cards left in the set: bonders' enclave, a fantastic draw engine that's almost strictly superior to arch of orazca. I like it! A lot. Seems like a new auto-include.

Still waiting on that damn UW companion. Obviously the GW one isn't compatible with Phelddagrif (though it'd be crap anyway), and the UG one would basically blow our entire foot off as regards our ability to handle anything remotely degenerate, in exchange for a one-time draw...1 maybe? So UW's our only real hope for Phelddagrif to get a buddy.

Although truth be told idk what condition we could reasonable meet here. I could see UW being "all your creatures have flying" which annoyingly phelddagrif doesn't technically qualify for. Big deck size would be cool, but obviously impossible. Anything about card types we're probably screwed on since, while we run MOSTLY instants, we still probably need at least a couple of the other types, and of course Phelddagrif itself is a non-optional creature which precludes any kind of "no playing permanents/creatures" restriction. So idk. Still holding out hope, but it's probably stupid.

@Hawk

Thanks for the feedback. I agree, wilt seems fine but I'm not usually that interested in cycling my cards tbh.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Kapusta
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Post by Kapusta » 4 years ago

bonders' enclave Yay! Definitly a good card. May replace one of my other colorless utility lands as Arch still may come in handy.
And Yorion, Sky Nomad doesn't really help us too much. Seems like we really only got a couple cool new cards this time around. Enclave is really good though so it was worth it!

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Hey, I called Yorion's condition in advance, lol. So out of our 3 options for companions, 1 is illegal as a companion in the format, 1 is illegal with phelddagrif in the CZ, and 1 is legal but incredibly bad both in its condition - which would require replacing like 2/3 of the nonland cards - and its payoff - which is basically a fire elemental that maybe cantrips. Whee. So...no companions for us.

If by some crazy fluke, the RC allows us to use ANY companion, not restricted by CI, then jegantha, the wellspring could be...kind of ok? Guts our board wipe selection, though. And doesn't really do much. If by some crazy crazy CRAZY fluke, we can use any companion AND we can ignore our commander for the criteria, then lurrus of the dream den would be sweeeet, but there's basically no chance of that.

Anyway, at least we've got a new spicy land. I think I might actually replace one of the other CA engines in the deck, instead of another land. I dream of the day when the whole deck won't have any value engines except its lands, that would be super cool.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

I fiiiiinally got around to updating the OP with the cards from the past...year lol.

I'm also making some improvements to my current decklist, need to get my hands on force of will/negation. I don't want to include those in the list until I've actually got them for real, though.

Cut top and spellseeker. Spellseeker is too clunky and slow and doesn't even hit a great variety of stuff. Top is fine but it doesn't really do enough and attracts attention. Replaced with dovin's veto and stifle, really been liking ability counters. I should really look into getting another tale's end.

I'm going to cut some board wipes to make room for the forces, but having a slightly hard time deciding which to cut. Right now I've got:
I'm kind of thinking maybe evac - the instant speed is great, but it so frequently feels like a sort of overpriced fog or something. Rift is a lot better since it can reset all their mana rocks and likely force them to discard a bunch, plus it disrupts more combos and has the single-target mode. Obviously cyc rift isn't getting cut, but I'm trying to justify cutting a card that's kinda similar to our best board wipe lol.

Other random Phelddagrif thoughts - cards I'd really like to see at some point:

terrain generator but it can play nonbasics. I'd cut exploration instantly.

Overloaded Cyclonic Rift for cheaper BUT it's symmetrical. Because we really don't give a crap about bouncing our own stuff. Annoying they've printed like a million of these at sorcery speed, but never instants. Boo.

cunning wish to get unbanned. That'd be pretty cool.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Kapusta
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Post by Kapusta » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
I fiiiiinally got around to updating the OP with the cards from the past...year lol.

I'm also making some improvements to my current decklist, need to get my hands on force of will/negation. I don't want to include those in the list until I've actually got them for real, though.

Cut top and spellseeker. Spellseeker is too clunky and slow and doesn't even hit a great variety of stuff. Top is fine but it doesn't really do enough and attracts attention. Replaced with dovin's veto and stifle, really been liking ability counters. I should really look into getting another tale's end.

I'm going to cut some board wipes to make room for the forces, but having a slightly hard time deciding which to cut. Right now I've got:
I'm kind of thinking maybe evac - the instant speed is great, but it so frequently feels like a sort of overpriced fog or something. Rift is a lot better since it can reset all their mana rocks and likely force them to discard a bunch, plus it disrupts more combos and has the single-target mode. Obviously cyc rift isn't getting cut, but I'm trying to justify cutting a card that's kinda similar to our best board wipe lol.

Other random Phelddagrif thoughts - cards I'd really like to see at some point:

terrain generator but it can play nonbasics. I'd cut exploration instantly.

Overloaded Cyclonic Rift for cheaper BUT it's symmetrical. Because we really don't give a crap about bouncing our own stuff. Annoying they've printed like a million of these at sorcery speed, but never instants. Boo.

cunning wish to get unbanned. That'd be pretty cool.
I agree with evacuation. I've felt that card always seems to under perform for me unfortunatly. Sure it's instant bounce but it really is only a fog. Besides, I have the mentality that if I were to bouce all the creatures on the board, I'd rather just deter any attacks towards me so they use their creatures elsewhere. I think cutting evac is a good choice.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Kapusta wrote:
4 years ago
I agree with evacuation. I've felt that card always seems to under perform for me unfortunatly. Sure it's instant bounce but it really is only a fog. Besides, I have the mentality that if I were to bouce all the creatures on the board, I'd rather just deter any attacks towards me so they use their creatures elsewhere. I think cutting evac is a good choice.
Glad you agree. Another thing tipping me towards evac - I've been looking through my current decklist, and I've only got 6 nonland permanents in the deck:

Phelddagrif - duh, but easy to bounce so NP with boardwipes
Nimble Obstructionist - fake permanent, NP with boardwipes
Search for Azcanta - needs to flip, but once it's flipped NP with boardwipes
Exploration - Would prefer not to kill, but it can get pretty good value even if I eventually do blow it up
Telepathy - Value dissipates over time if it's destroyed as enemy hands get more unknown information, but it still does give a lot of info right away. and as much as I love it, it is a 1 mana enchantment.
Imprison in the moon - depending on circumstance it might be ok to merely lock someone out of the game for a while and free them later, or it might be a total disaster to break their commander out of prison

So we're really low on nonland perms at all, which makes me want to also cut stuff like cleansing nova that has to choose between creatures and noncreatures, since I'd almost always rather do both. Planar cleansing costs an extra mana, but that's pretty worth it imo. So I might gravitate away from the creature-only wipes and towards the fully global wipes. Although I'd also like to go down to at most 8. I kinda want to replace them with the forces, though, which I'm having a hard time finding in NZ (I bought a FoW in the UK before the move but the seller screwed up and I ended up with a refund instead).

Whether that's going to make me want to include hall of heliod (or whatever it's called) I'm not sure. On one hand, it's a land that recurs the things I care about. On the other hand...it just seems so clunky and there aren't really very many targets. Colorless lands are so hard to justify in here with how strong the alternatives are. Is getting back telepathy really better than a land that can just keep drawing cards? Probably not...
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

mr_abomination
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Post by mr_abomination » 4 years ago

Why Imprisoned in the Moon over Song of the Dryads? I've found the flexibility far outweighs the green mana.

Evacuation has won me a game, but that's only because my opponent was playing tokens. I agree that it could definitely be cut for something better.

Personally I've never gotten exploration to work for me, I never seem to have enough lands in hand to make it worthwhile. I've actually replaced it with Chromatic lantern and have been enjoying having all colours at my disposal, makes it much easier to give hippos.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

mr_abomination wrote:
4 years ago
Why Imprisoned in the Moon over Song of the Dryads? I've found the flexibility far outweighs the green mana.

Evacuation has won me a game, but that's only because my opponent was playing tokens. I agree that it could definitely be cut for something better.

Personally I've never gotten exploration to work for me, I never seem to have enough lands in hand to make it worthwhile. I've actually replaced it with Chromatic lantern and have been enjoying having all colours at my disposal, makes it much easier to give hippos.
Song is generally preferable, but I don't happen to have one, and it's a pretty minor (and straight-across) upgrade. I should probably try to pick one up, but I'm not in much of a rush.

Exploration is at its best with Loam. With loam it's almost mandatory imo. It's a way to generate enough mana that you can use some of our inefficient draw engines reliably, even when you're forced to respond to enemy threats. For a 1 mana enchantment it does a lot. I could conceive of replacing it with summer bloom maybe, if I wanted to go zero-permanents, but generally-speaking the ability to keep ramping consistently is really strong. I've had games where exploration got me 5 or even 10 lands ahead, for one mana.

Not sure that chromatic lantern really makes sense as a replacement. The goal of exploration is to give constant ramp that accumulates over time and will stick around through a board wipe. Chromatic lantern provides only minor ramp, and it goes away next time we - or anyone - clears the board. Chromatic lantern does improve hippo-giving-away ability, but it's fairly rare that I'm looking to use all my mana to give away hippos. Dedicating all your mana to helping one player kind of plants your flag in the ground and antagonizes the other players, plus it's risky if the player you donate to has a way to exploit those hippos. Not that there aren't times to go all-in and give as many hippos as you can, but I can't see dedicating a slot to it, especially in a deck that's loath to run nonland permanents.

The other part of the reason to run exploration is to get lands out of your hand from your draw engines. The bigger your hand, the bigger the threat you look, so you'd rather every card in your hand was an actual answer rather than a bunch of lands you're patiently playing once per turn. And since we run such a high density of lands, the odds of hitting more than you can play is quite high. Exploration lets you slim down you hand by keeping each card as potent as possible.

I could conceive of cutting it, it's not above consideration. If I was cutting it without a straight-across replacement like summer bloom, though, it'd probably be for another answer, not for chromatic lantern. I really don't see that card having a role in this deck (or any deck actually, I really don't like that card lol).
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

mr_abomination
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Post by mr_abomination » 4 years ago

Maybe I'll try exploration again, I hadn't even considered the interaction with loam.

I definitely have been hesitant to wipe with lantern out, I've just often found the convenience nice. The repeated ramp from draw spells is a good thing to consider however,

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

mr_abomination wrote:
4 years ago
I definitely have been hesitant to wipe with lantern out, I've just often found the convenience nice.
I think you can make this deck a couple ways - in particular I think it's worth deciding whether you want to focus on full wipes (akromas wrath, planar cleansing, hour, etc) or if you want to focus on creature-only wipes. Creature-only wipes let you commit things to the board like sylvan library etc, but they also raise your threat profile and make it harder to deal with big noncreature setups from your opponents.

The more CA tools we get from lands/spells the more I think the correct choice is the low-permanent one. As soon as they print telepathy on a land I'm cutting all permanents forever :P Make it a flip land where I have to pay 6 mana and 10 life, idgaf wotc just make it happen.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
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Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

AspiringHippo
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Post by AspiringHippo » 4 years ago

Wow! What a ride! I have been playing this deck since the start of quarantine and it has been beautiful. Every win was calculated and every loss was due to a mistake (Not that there were many!).

I have a couple of questions on the agenda for you regarding card choices:
I am currently trying experimenting with Elixir of Immortality over Nexus of Fate as both provide inevitability but one sets off threat alarms. The upsides and downsides are as follows:
Elixir:
-Can be a dead card
-Physically not as good as Nexus
-Can be milled
-Avoids an endgame without answers left in deck (if the game goes long)
-Gains 5 life which can be nice
Nexus:
-Never a dead card
-Can be pitched to hand size easily
-"Free" card
-Infinite turns should the game go long
-Getting it milled means nothing
-People get wary around extra turns
-Winning via turns can make it feel to players like a combo deck
-Can't often make use of the turns

I am curious what you think about these and your feedback.

Next, a question concerning endgame:
Often, I will face a player who will have "gone off" at some point during the game but will feel heavily oppressed by my inevitable win via hard control. How do I avoid a feeling of oppression on my opponent's side?
Games will often go like this
I have a full grip, a strong opponent will finish off the last opponent and it will go to a 1v1. I, then, boardwipe at end step, untap, and cast our rightful sovereign. Then, I remove every threat that they play trading 1 for one and pull off the victory.

Yet, my mouth blabbers on and I must ask yet another question. As the goal of this deck is to face the weakest player in the end game, how do I weaken the powerful player without incurring the wrath of said strong opponent? I've found that, realistically, the hippos I give don't provide enough advantage at a given time and I can't provide a weak player the tools to face an opponent with a strong value engine/board presence.

Out of the most recent games I've played, I can recount for you one to give you a better understanding of where I am coming from.
Commanders: Sisay, Weatherlight Captain, Teysa Orzhov Scion (Shadowborn Apostles), and Opal Eye.
Immediately, the Teysa player seemed a little "newer" at the game as he started by Field of Ruining my Path of Ancestry on turn 3. I dismissed him and eventually he died to his own greed, literally. The Opal Eye player seemed quite strong at the game but angered both other players with an Elesh Norn resulting in an extremely low life total. He saved himself with a protected Platinum angel but, due to an Arcane Lighthouse on my side, I wasn't remotely worried. However, the Sisay player was left unchecked and ran away with the game. The other players weren't attacking him either and I couldn't find a conceivable reality where I fought anyone else in the final two. I ended up fighting him in the endgame and winning but not before brutally subjugating him to a control steamroll. This will make him more wary of me next game. How do I balance without directing wrath at me?

I have more to say but I will share that with you after you've digested this.

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TheGildedGoose
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
The more CA tools we get from lands/spells the more I think the correct choice is the low-permanent one.
This is my opinion, but the novelty of playing "Oops, No Nonland Permanents" is irresistible to me, so I'm biased. Limiting the ways in which your opponents can interact with you (discard, which is fairly rare, and on the stack, which this deck is well equipped to deal with) is very strong. Blanking opposing draws is virtual card advantage, after all.

That said, there really aren't good replacements for Song of the Dryads or Imprisoned in the Moon, and Sol Ring exists, so right now my ideal is impossible.

Have you reconsidered trimming your land count? My rule of thumb in 60 card format blue-based control decks was always 25 lands, which translates into 41-42 lands for EDH without ramp. I guess you're on the Loam plan now which justifies a higher land count, but for non-Loam builds it seems excessive, even with all those fancy utility lands. Besides, the Douglas Adams connection brings joy.

Also, I just want to throw my weight again behind the blue cantrips for this deck. Even Brainstorm in a deck without fetches, since digging at instant speed for an answer is very strong.

Anyway, congratulations on such an awesome and innovative deck. I've been following the deck in the shadows for sometime now and I always look forward to reading your analysis.

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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago

I'm going to cut some board wipes to make room for the forces, but having a slightly hard time deciding which to cut. Right now I've got:
I'm kind of thinking maybe evac - the instant speed is great, but it so frequently feels like a sort of overpriced fog or something. Rift is a lot better since it can reset all their mana rocks and likely force them to discard a bunch, plus it disrupts more combos and has the single-target mode. Obviously cyc rift isn't getting cut, but I'm trying to justify cutting a card that's kinda similar to our best board wipe lol.
I'll let you know how it goes after a few more games (which this pandemic has made a bit tough), but Evacuation was something I added last time. We've found that in this deck, one really wants the boardwipes to either be 4 CMC so you can cast it and hold up mana for more interaction or Instant speed so you don't have to tip your hand until the absolute most opportune moment possible.

We've generally found Rout and Cyclonic Rift to be the best sweepers in the deck, and that instant speed so valuable that Devastation Tide and Fated Retribution were "decent" despite being absolutely worse than the first two. So now Evac gets a shot just to have one more instant speed wipeout in the deck.

As a result, for your list, I'm wondering if A) maybe you'd find Devastation Tide more palatable as it does a lot of the stuff you love Rift for and B) if Play of the Game or Akroma's Vengeance, as your two most expensive non-instant wraths, are more deserving of suspicion and cutting? Full disclosure I don't own Play of the Game, but it feels on its face that it is extremely unlikely you'll find a willing partner to help cast it. Out of Bounds targets the #1 threat so cooperation is usually almost assured (it's been 1U or U every game so far on our end at least), but since Play of the Game murders everything I just am not convinced you'd ever find someone willing to chip in a significant savings. That's not to say Play is bad even at 8 - Final Judgment but it hits all permanents isn't a bad card at all - but 8 mana is a lot and sorcery speed is a pain.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

AspiringHippo wrote:
4 years ago
Wow! What a ride! I have been playing this deck since the start of quarantine and it has been beautiful. Every win was calculated and every loss was due to a mistake (Not that there were many!).

I have a couple of questions on the agenda for you regarding card choices:
I am currently trying experimenting with Elixir of Immortality over Nexus of Fate as both provide inevitability but one sets off threat alarms. The upsides and downsides are as follows:
Elixir:
-Can be a dead card
-Physically not as good as Nexus
-Can be milled
-Avoids an endgame without answers left in deck (if the game goes long)
-Gains 5 life which can be nice
Nexus:
-Never a dead card
-Can be pitched to hand size easily
-"Free" card
-Infinite turns should the game go long
-Getting it milled means nothing
-People get wary around extra turns
-Winning via turns can make it feel to players like a combo deck
-Can't often make use of the turns

I am curious what you think about these and your feedback.

Next, a question concerning endgame:
Often, I will face a player who will have "gone off" at some point during the game but will feel heavily oppressed by my inevitable win via hard control. How do I avoid a feeling of oppression on my opponent's side?
Games will often go like this
I have a full grip, a strong opponent will finish off the last opponent and it will go to a 1v1. I, then, boardwipe at end step, untap, and cast our rightful sovereign. Then, I remove every threat that they play trading 1 for one and pull off the victory.

Yet, my mouth blabbers on and I must ask yet another question. As the goal of this deck is to face the weakest player in the end game, how do I weaken the powerful player without incurring the wrath of said strong opponent? I've found that, realistically, the hippos I give don't provide enough advantage at a given time and I can't provide a weak player the tools to face an opponent with a strong value engine/board presence.

Out of the most recent games I've played, I can recount for you one to give you a better understanding of where I am coming from.
Commanders: Sisay, Weatherlight Captain, Teysa Orzhov Scion (Shadowborn Apostles), and Opal Eye.
Immediately, the Teysa player seemed a little "newer" at the game as he started by Field of Ruining my Path of Ancestry on turn 3. I dismissed him and eventually he died to his own greed, literally. The Opal Eye player seemed quite strong at the game but angered both other players with an Elesh Norn resulting in an extremely low life total. He saved himself with a protected Platinum angel but, due to an Arcane Lighthouse on my side, I wasn't remotely worried. However, the Sisay player was left unchecked and ran away with the game. The other players weren't attacking him either and I couldn't find a conceivable reality where I fought anyone else in the final two. I ended up fighting him in the endgame and winning but not before brutally subjugating him to a control steamroll. This will make him more wary of me next game. How do I balance without directing wrath at me?

I have more to say but I will share that with you after you've digested this.
As always, glad to have someone else enjoying the deck! It always makes me happy to hear other people are having success with the archetype.

My intention with nexus was always to have a card that solves mill, and in particular one that works if it gets milled, dredged with loam. If you aren't using loam, then the necessity of nexus goes down a lot and elixir becomes a viable alternative, although I think without loam you don't really need mill protection very much anyway. If you're going to natural decking without loam, well....yikes. That is a long game.

I like the lower threat level and all, but unfortunately I don't think anything can really replace nexus. Well, an eldrazi maybe, but that's probably not better threat-wise and it screws up loam occasionally. Gaea's blessing is the inverted elixir where it works when milled but sucks when drawn. It's still alright but I prefer the certainty of nexus. I hope they'll eventually print something else with a similar effect, but for now I think it's either nexus or nothing tbh (nothing is a totally viable answer though).

Actually, if there's one thing that can replace nexus, it might be hall of heliod's generosity. I'd have to put some thought into which specific cards to run with it, though. The 4 enchantments I've got in my current decklist don't really die often enough to be a reliable way to keep your library going. Btw if anyone has experience with the card I'd love to hear about it.

I'd also be curious if anyone has an answer to the oppression at the end of the game. I have had games where my control over the last player was tenuous and didn't look like a total blow-out, but the deck can definitely feel oppressive in the endgame. I don't know that it's avoidable, since removal and counters are the heart of the deck - but if it is, it's probably through minimizing powerful draw engines. If you at least have to pick and choose targets, it looks less oppressive. If you're literally countering everything, you look like a big threat for future games. Obviously you aren't going to be as permissive in the 1v1 game as the multiplayer one, but I think it is worth being judicious with targets and trying not to get too aggressive with answers. You still want to look like you outplayed them, not that you just utterly obliterated them.

Oftentimes the "weakest opponent" is someone with a very creature-heavy, relatively aggressive deck. In those circumstances, helping them kill other people is often a matter of just disrupting enemy value engines and maybe blowing some key blockers out of the way long enough for the aggro player to do their work. Whereas the stronger players are often relying on combos and such that we can disrupt pretty well, and since they're not focusing on combat, they're usually not in a good position to hurt us. Giving away hippos may or may not be effective, kind of depends on what sort of game it is. If you've got an opponent who's playing straight-up jank, of course sometimes it's just too difficult to sway the tides of battle away in their favor. C'est la vie. Sometimes it's best to help the middle-strength player so they actually have a chance. As far as not incurring their wrath, well...sometimes that's going to happen. But as I said, usually the best deck is playing wincons that aren't combat focused, so their wrath doesn't matter too much. They're playing a bunch of cards that let them put together engines, but don't actually start hurting anyone else until they're ready to kill everyone with a combo or big synergy play or whatever. So if you disrupt their engines, they don't really have the tools to hurt you. Of course that isn't always true. But also I think most games, using removal occasionally on obvious must-kill targets, people don't get too upset by that. And naturally, you're trying to keep another player more immediately threatening, so even if they're annoyed you disrupted them, they need to deal with the other player first. This is less true if you're actively funneling them hippos, though, so use your best judgment about when you throw your total support behind another player. Because once you start doing that, yeah, you'll probably not be ignored.

Like the actual card Greed? Lol. That's pretty epic.

I have never seen anyone play opal eye, let alone as a commander. Kudos to that dude. Took me a minute to even remember who that is, and I've looked through the list of legendaries more times than I can count.

Sisay is definitely a problematic commander since it cheats things into play, circumventing countermagic and being used at instant speed to avoid sorcery-speed wipes etc. Honestly, in a field that unbalanced - one player very bad at the game and another playing...lol...opal eye, I'd probably go for an early neutralization on sisay, if you can. Alternately let sisay get slightly out of control, just enough that the other players are concerned, so when you remove sisay in response to an activation, you'll look like a hero. Depending how the field looks, you might also counter her the next time she comes down. I think there are some tools she can pull to make her board indestructible, so board wipes aren't necessarily effective - watch out for that. You need to shut her down with countermagic and instant-speed removal. Though if you've got a rout or something, that could be very effective, although it'd also shut down whatever aggression was already pointing at sisay.

The good thing about sisay, at least, is that she doesn't generally have a way to reuse her stuff. So if she goes off a little, hopefully she'll have pulled the scariest stuff out of her deck and she'll get weaker over time. Or at least the commander itself will become less of an issue.
GloriousGoose wrote:
4 years ago
DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago
The more CA tools we get from lands/spells the more I think the correct choice is the low-permanent one.
This is my opinion, but the novelty of playing "Oops, No Nonland Permanents" is irresistible to me, so I'm biased. Limiting the ways in which your opponents can interact with you (discard, which is fairly rare, and on the stack, which this deck is well equipped to deal with) is very strong. Blanking opposing draws is virtual card advantage, after all.

That said, there really aren't good replacements for Song of the Dryads or Imprisoned in the Moon, and Sol Ring exists, so right now my ideal is impossible.

Have you reconsidered trimming your land count? My rule of thumb in 60 card format blue-based control decks was always 25 lands, which translates into 41-42 lands for EDH without ramp. I guess you're on the Loam plan now which justifies a higher land count, but for non-Loam builds it seems excessive, even with all those fancy utility lands. Besides, the Douglas Adams connection brings joy.

Also, I just want to throw my weight again behind the blue cantrips for this deck. Even Brainstorm in a deck without fetches, since digging at instant speed for an answer is very strong.

Anyway, congratulations on such an awesome and innovative deck. I've been following the deck in the shadows for sometime now and I always look forward to reading your analysis.
I'm not running sol ring (glossary explains my reasoning), but yeah song/imprison are kind of irreplaceable (I've got a thread brainstorming alternatives but I don't think anything is better realistically, though for a long enough game the mindslaver + exile plan is pretty spectacular, and I like the way it sends the message "seriously, %$#% your commander"). Telepathy isn't exactly mandatory but it's just so good it's hard to cut, even to achieve a perfect no-nonland-permanents build.

You've probably already read my thinking behind the high land count, but missing land drops just feels so bad with this deck - first, because we really rely on land drops in a deck with no ramp, and second, because missing a land drop probably means we have to use a counter/removal or discard it, and I don't like being forced to play cards just to avoid discarding them. There's usually some point in the game where I think to myself "jesus christ, I've got too many lands in this deck" but that's usually because I've drawn a higher-than-expected number of lands, on top of the high land count, and it usually balances out by the end. For a more cEDH-oriented build I would probably go lower I expect, since you're likely to have used an answer in the early turns, but so many of our draw engines rely on having a lot of lands because they're so inefficient, so a missed land drop on turn 5 can hurt down the line.

I mean, it is a lot more lands than most decks, but we're also running essentially no ramp. I think the number for lands is still lower than most decks have for lands + ramp. I definitely wouldn't fault anyone for going lower, but especially in low/medium-powered metas where I usually play, I really like never missing a land drop all game. Plus being able to say "lol I'm flooded" can take pressure off.
Hawk wrote:
4 years ago
I'll let you know how it goes after a few more games (which this pandemic has made a bit tough), but Evacuation was something I added last time. We've found that in this deck, one really wants the boardwipes to either be 4 CMC so you can cast it and hold up mana for more interaction or Instant speed so you don't have to tip your hand until the absolute most opportune moment possible.

We've generally found Rout and Cyclonic Rift to be the best sweepers in the deck, and that instant speed so valuable that Devastation Tide and Fated Retribution were "decent" despite being absolutely worse than the first two. So now Evac gets a shot just to have one more instant speed wipeout in the deck.

As a result, for your list, I'm wondering if A) maybe you'd find Devastation Tide more palatable as it does a lot of the stuff you love Rift for and B) if Play of the Game or Akroma's Vengeance, as your two most expensive non-instant wraths, are more deserving of suspicion and cutting? Full disclosure I don't own Play of the Game, but it feels on its face that it is extremely unlikely you'll find a willing partner to help cast it. Out of Bounds targets the #1 threat so cooperation is usually almost assured (it's been 1U or U every game so far on our end at least), but since Play of the Game murders everything I just am not convinced you'd ever find someone willing to chip in a significant savings. That's not to say Play is bad even at 8 - Final Judgment but it hits all permanents isn't a bad card at all - but 8 mana is a lot and sorcery speed is a pain.
I agree that cyc rift is easily the best sweeper. Which is honestly hilarious considering we don't even care about the asymmetrical part. But I'd say very close behind - and arguably in front of - is hour of rev. That card is just insane. 3 mana for a full wipe. Oh, but it's more expensive, but only at times when you wouldn't cast it anyway. What a crippling drawback.

Devastation tide is interesting and I have considered it, but I don't think my current version can realistically set it up to be miracled, and thus it's a sorcery and not an instant. If I had more ways to do it, though, it'd be good. Mystic sanctuary is one good way, at least.

I haven't gotten much of a chance to play play of the game since acquiring it, I think I've only cast it once or twice (I haven't played the deck a ton recently, between moving twice and building tons of new temporary decks). My experience with the assist cards is that people don't leave mana up as often as I'd like, hence why I've excluded out of bounds (although I agree that it's excellent politically). I think I did have some mana buy-in from another player, but only a couple as they only had a couple open. I do see some problems with it - I think USUALLY if you're wanting to wipe the board, it's because something is really scary and thus another player will probably want to as well. It might not ALWAYS happen, but I think calling it "very unlikely" is untrue. Unfortunately, besides relying on opponents to keep up mana, it could also backfire politically:

P1: "I want to wipe the board, will you help me?"
P2: "How?"
P1: "Help me pay for play of the game."
P2: "Oh. Nah."
P1: "Why not? You're dead on board."
P2: "Yeah, but so are you, and I'd rather you were more tapped out so you can't counter my stuff, since I know you'll play it either way."
P1: "Ah. I don't like you. You're too clever."

P1: "I want to wipe the board, will you help me?"
P2: "How?"
P1: "help me pay for play of the game. I don't have enough mana"
P2: "Oh. Hmm. Nah."
P1: "Why not? You're way behind on board."
P2: "I guess so, but I like my stuff, and I'm not very good at threat assessment so I don't see the obvious problem across the table."
P1: "Ok, cool, well now I guess everybody knows I have a board wipe that I can't cast yet, and will try to kill me before I can. Hooray."

P1: "I want to wipe the board, will you help me?"
P2: "How?"
P1: "help me pay for play of the game. I don't have enough mana."
P2: "Ok, that sounds cool, LET'S DO IT!!!"
P3: "Hey, P2, if you don't help him pay for that wipe, I'll kill P1 and then pinkie promise not to attack you for 3 turns."
P2: "Hmmm......sorry P1 I changed my mind."
P1: "Super."

These are the things that worry me about it. And why I tend to only play it when I can afford all 8 mana.

On the other hand, it's one of only 2 (I think) full exile wipes, and it's cheaper than the other one even with no support. There are some decks that just NEVER stop bringing stuff back, so having a way to permanently erase their nonsense en masse is nice to have, imo. Tbh I've been leaning towards including planar cleansing over one of the less total wipes, despite the high cost.

In general I've been pretty ok with wipes being fairly expensive since they aren't usually necessary early on. And I think being able to fully wipe all permanents is worth the extra mana. I do dream of the day they print an instant-speed full exile wipe, though. IDC what it costs. Make it happen.

Ofc play of the game is not worth it in cEDH, one assumes. I've generally skewed my deck to have really efficient targeted removal and counterspells to answer cEDH-style threats, and big expensive clunky board wipes to handle casual games.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Kapusta
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Post by Kapusta » 4 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 years ago

I agree that cyc rift is easily the best sweeper. Which is honestly hilarious considering we don't even care about the asymmetrical part. But I'd say very close behind - and arguably in front of - is hour of rev. That card is just insane. 3 mana for a full wipe. Oh, but it's more expensive, but only at times when you wouldn't cast it anyway. What a crippling drawback.

Devastation tide is interesting and I have considered it, but I don't think my current version can realistically set it up to be miracled, and thus it's a sorcery and not an instant. If I had more ways to do it, though, it'd be good. Mystic sanctuary is one good way, at least.

I haven't gotten much of a chance to play play of the game since acquiring it, I think I've only cast it once or twice (I haven't played the deck a ton recently, between moving twice and building tons of new temporary decks). My experience with the assist cards is that people don't leave mana up as often as I'd like, hence why I've excluded out of bounds (although I agree that it's excellent politically). I think I did have some mana buy-in from another player, but only a couple as they only had a couple open. I do see some problems with it - I think USUALLY if you're wanting to wipe the board, it's because something is really scary and thus another player will probably want to as well. It might not ALWAYS happen, but I think calling it "very unlikely" is untrue. Unfortunately, besides relying on opponents to keep up mana, it could also backfire politically:

.......

These are the things that worry me about it. And why I tend to only play it when I can afford all 8 mana.

On the other hand, it's one of only 2 (I think) full exile wipes, and it's cheaper than the other one even with no support. There are some decks that just NEVER stop bringing stuff back, so having a way to permanently erase their nonsense en masse is nice to have, imo. Tbh I've been leaning towards including planar cleansing over one of the less total wipes, despite the high cost.

In general I've been pretty ok with wipes being fairly expensive since they aren't usually necessary early on. And I think being able to fully wipe all permanents is worth the extra mana. I do dream of the day they print an instant-speed full exile wipe, though. IDC what it costs. Make it happen.

Ofc play of the game is not worth it in cEDH, one assumes. I've generally skewed my deck to have really efficient targeted removal and counterspells to answer cEDH-style threats, and big expensive clunky board wipes to handle casual games.
Oh man, Hour of Revelation is absolutely my favorite wipe in this deck. It's so cheap and my playgroup already knows to start picking up their cards if I tap for 3 white mana specifically XD

I share the same gripes with Play of the game, I've case it full cost 9/10 games because really no one likes to help. *shrug* I still really like it though. Mass exile is bueno. I am trying planar cleansing over evacuate right now, and It's been relevant a couple times. Still on the fence about which to play. I've also considered playing it over Fated Retribution.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 4 years ago

Two quick shower notes:

1) I'm really curious to try hall of heliod's generosity. It's a land, so it's loamable, and it can add cards to the deck, as well as give us an "infinite" source of neutralization and telepathy (plus other less important things). It might actually be an ok replacement for nexus - not as strong, of course, but way less frightening. I feel like I might want some additional good enchantments, though, just so if we're down to an empty deck we're topdecking SOMETHING instead of recycling do-nothings just so we don't lose.

2) I really really really hope gifts gets unbanned in the quarterly. Idk how likely it is, but it feels like it's gotta be time. The card is really not that busted. That said, it's really freaking sweet here. I foresee 4 modes:

-Get an answer to the "right now" problem that anyone who isn't the source of that problem should be happy to give you, plus a baked-in intuition - most likely fetching a loam package. So basically demonic tutor + intuition stapled together for 4 mana.

-The fully political tutor, where you offer someone a bunch of hippos or life or to give them a blocker so they don't die or whatever - in exchange for which they give you perfect selection, double demonic + double entomb.

-Four of the same effect. Four boar wipes, four counterspells, four removals, maybe 4 value cards. We have enough redundancy even the 3/4th best of an effect should still be very good.

-Big loam package. Loam + 3 cyclers, or loam + 2 cyclers + tolaria west, or loam + 1 cycler + TW + some sweet utility land like kor haven...so many strong land packages in here. Obviously Intuition is already great, but getting an extra land would be a big bonus.

Actually now that I spell that all out, I think those are basically the same modes intuition had. Whatever. Still nice to run through them. Cross fingers on the 20th!

If I add hall of heliods (which I'm a lot more apt to do if gifts is legalized) it also does a nice package of loam + hall + cycler + song of the dryads (or another enchantment). No matter what they give you, you can get song of the dryads into play (though it's not cheap).
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

AspiringHippo
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Post by AspiringHippo » 3 years ago

Hello! It's me again.

Wanted to quickly share some thoughts on games I had and contribute to this thread.

I've recently went into a rough patch of losses so I feel like I should share what I learned from them.

Most recent game: Started off by fighting a Meren player and a Kami of the Crescent Moon. Meren player kept trying to set up but their deck was entirely EDHrec Meren staples. It was a relatively linear deck and he committed to the board while the Kami player just played symmetrical card draw effects. It went pretty fine until the Meren player went off so hard I had to boardwipe. I made the mistake of exiling his graveyard with pretty much his entire deck in the graveyard. He saw that his deck was empty and scooped. I then fought a grueling battle against Kami that we didn't finish. It was pretty clear that he had better inevitability and it felt like a loss with my boardwipes as dead cards.

A similar game involved a Nicol Bolas the Ravager player playing a ton of must answer threats and between him and other players ruthlessly attacking, I was defeated to a Torment of Hailfire with no cards left in hand. Looking back, I should not have board wiped the aggressive decks as it may have been my best path to victory.

I decided to give your most recent version of the deck a go and I found that Stifle wasn't relevant enough. It usually sits in my hand and I consistently wish I had a different card. Another card I found to be... not as good is Stubborn Denial. When I am playing without hippo in play as I am on the defensive, the card becomes quickly unplayable. To add to the fact, it only hits non creatures which make the restrictions even worse. I just don't think that the one mana cost makes it better than say, Negate.

I would like to share more on card choices but my time is limited so I must leave you at this.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Stifle I just stuck in a few days ago, and ideally I'd like to grab an extra force of will/negation to put in there. I also might replace stifle with tale's end, since stifle is narrow. But I've found countering abilities to stop a huge percentage of infinite combos. kiki conscripts? Stopped. mike trike? stopped. flash hulk? stopped. palinchron? usually stopped. Hell, even sanguine bond stopped, at least temporarily. I have had games where it's a bit narrow and doesn't feel great, but I've been angling my particular list to handle cEDH - same reason stubborn denial is in there. Outside of cEDH, yes, I'd definitely go negate (or more likely dream fracture).

This is part of why I've tried to be clear that anyone building Phelddagrif shouldn't take any list as gospel, and should take the general structure of the deck and adapt it to the sorts of games they want to play in!

It's difficult to say anything about games without basically being there, but I'll give my two cents.

I would think that, if you're running nexus of fate, a fight against symmetrical draw effects would be an easy win. Exploration lets you vomit out a million lands, their draw effects fill your hand with counterspells, you run out a wipe against their howling mine artifacts just before you deck yourself, and then you go infinite nexus of fate for the win. Maybe strip mind their reliquary tower if that's allowing them to hoard extra counterspells so you don't lose the counter war (hopefully).

Aggressive decks are harder to judge since there's not an obvious auto-win like nexus to resolve the problem. Just comes down to playing the political game and trying to shunt them towards the bolas player. Anyone damaging your hand is a definite problem and has got to go. The good thing is, bolas himself isn't always a planeswalker that poses a problem for us, so it could be a good opportunity to direct the aggressive players in his direction if he tries to transform. And he's probably not in a big hurry to trade his fancy schmancy bolas for your happy hoppy hippo, so Phelddagrif is a good deterrent blocker. torment of hailfire is definitely something to be wary of and try to keep a counter up for - heliod's intervention is a nice bonus answer to have.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

AspiringHippo
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Post by AspiringHippo » 3 years ago

In the particular game against the Meren player, I had Scavenger Groundsed after loaming away 8 counters or so. The mono-blue player was running Echo of Eons so it became a kind of became a deck vs deck matchup. He was playing both Blue Sun's and Nexus which made it seemingly impossible to win.

I find myself wanting Exploration in my hand often but there is no reliable tutor for it save a politicked Intuition.

I agree with you on the Stifle topic and Denial as, when it comes down to it, it's a meta choice.

I've found that the worst part of Bolas is actually the intial pitch a card. The planeswalker just draws attention and doesn't harm me. I've found that I am often happy when it flips.

I played a game hours after posting and I am quite pleased with how it played. The commanders were Niv-Mizzet of five colors, Tolsimir Wolfblood, and Kalamax.

I had played the Kalamax player before. His deck was very weak to removal and an early conceder. I believed that I wasn't going to be facing him in 1v1 so I payed little attention to him. Sure enough, he ran out of gas, and conceded around t8.

The Tolsimir player was playing suboptimal cards and the deck was incredibly unfocused. I decided I would fight them in the 1v1. They were relatively compliant and a few kind hippos and a couple of cards were all they needed to cooperate.

The Niv player explosively drew cards and would not comply at all. Hewas resistant and the "I see what your doing" kind of guy. He was irked by my doing nothing and saw me as a threat for that reason.

The game started with the dream 5 land, Voidslime, Pulse of the Grid. I went land, land, land, land, Phelddagrif into an Intuition Loam+Kor Haven pile. Nexus of Fate didn't help matters on t7 though, as it started a counter war when Kala Narset's Reversaled into a Counterflux by the Niv-Mizzet player. This raised my threat profile to the point where Niv-Mizzet started saying things like "You're doing what he wants. He's gonna win etc."

I came out on top blah blah blah by aiding the Tolsimir player to kill Niv and then Tragic Arroganced them.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Lol, sounds like you played it well. Whenever someone says "you're doing what he (I) wants" I tend to say "Yeah, of course, because it's also good for him, because you're the threat" or whatever, depending on game state. Sometimes I've even gone as far as throwing out removal on subpar targets in an effort to show that I'm "not trying to give myself an insurmountable advantage" or whatever. Hey, if you can get down to a 1v1 game with 60%+ odds, that's rarely a bad thing, rather than play an extremely tight game for CA and risk setting off the alarms and needing to fight 2v1.
AspiringHippo wrote:
3 years ago
In the particular game against the Meren player, I had Scavenger Groundsed after loaming away 8 counters or so. The mono-blue player was running Echo of Eons so it became a kind of became a deck vs deck matchup. He was playing both Blue Sun's and Nexus which made it seemingly impossible to win.

I find myself wanting Exploration in my hand often but there is no reliable tutor for it save a politicked Intuition.
Happily untrue. Wargate hits exploration, which can in turn be hit by mystical tutor (which can be hit by merchant scroll which can be hit by muddle...so if you're desperate enough, you'll get there!)

I've been skewing towards more counters personally - might be worth doing the same for your deck. Might help in those sorts of scenarios. Some decks can be resistant to removal, but counters work against just about everybody.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

AspiringHippo
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Post by AspiringHippo » 3 years ago

Ok, short post but as of now I am joining a 6 player edh game and I will take notes and post them.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Still waiting on those notes... :laugh:

So a few months ago I was speculating on more powerful alternatives to neutralizing removal. In particular, blink effects combined with stifle effects. Not as a standard gameplan, but mostly as a way to shut down commanders that create major problems by being "kill this every time it's cast or lose the game". Or commanders like MW that generate too much value for us to handle with traditional removal. Generally in the same way one uses neutralizing removal - either when someone is way too powerful for the table to handle, or when it's 1v1 and you want to shut it down. But since there were basically no repeatable blink effects that couldn't be avoided by just going to (and returning from) the CZ, it seemed like a dead end (btw the only exception is Identity Thief, but that card is terrible).

While I'm not a big fan of the death trigger change, it looks like that possibility has now become a reality. Whenever a commander is blinked, with any wording of the effect, if the opponent chooses to send it to the CZ, it will not return, since it has to change zones from exile to CZ and thus loses the link.

Meaning with a repeatable blinker, they either accept that we can kill their commander over and over, or they take a risk and leave him in exile, in which case if we have a Stifle effect, that commander is almost certainly gone forever.

Neat-o.

I took a minute to peruse the list of potentially exciting cards with this change (besides obviously stifle effects all getting significantly stronger in tandem with them). Here's my initial list of potentially promising candidates:
angel, mage, and roon are likely disqualified for being hard-to-protect creatures. Voidwalk is similar since it prevents us bouncing 'griff, but at least you're guaranteed the first blink. Though if they have a sac outlet you're SOL.

astral drift, slide, and skybind are probably too much effort to support.

mystifying maze just got a huge bump, although it's not exactly reliable. But it does make it a lot more interesting, even if it probably shouldn't be the primary perm-removal tool.

planar guide is really interesting since it's also an instant-speed board wipe if you've got that stifle. Could potentially exile EVERYONE's commanders at once. That's dirty as hell. Even if they CZ them, you could still exile all the non-commanders and send the commanders to the CZ. Pretty neat.

vanish into memory is single-shot, but it does offer a lot of potential value with that stifle. Especially since, if your opponent CZ's it, you don't have to do a damn thing, just draw a bunch of cards while killing an enemy commander. Sweet.

mistmeadow witch is probably the most straightforward as a tool for permanent removal. It's expensive as hell, but it protects itself and can keep eating commanders forever until they give up and let it go to exile where you can stifle it. Even without a stifle, some commanders get shut down if they can be blinked at any time. The biggest downside is that it's pretty slow. Really easy to be put in a position where you have to go shields down, and it's not a solution that works in the early turns, like you might enchant an early Zur or something to stop it getting out of control. But on the other hand, you could just kill the problem commander with normal removal until you can effectively use the witch. It's definitely got some interesting legs imo.

As far as M21 goes so far...

Angelic Ascension is a decent removal spell. Low cost, decent flexibility. 4/4 is a lot to handle, though any way to buff griff makes it a lot easier. Not a slam dunk but might make the cut.

Mazemind Tome is cute. Pretty far down the list of good CA engines though imo.

Discontinuity is mostly just a slightly worse Time Stop which I've never run anyway. Can't see the alt cost making sense, unless someone is flashing in something nasty on our endstep or whatever. Hard to say if it's better or worse than TS I guess, but as I said I've never really seriously considered time stop, so meh.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Kapusta
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Post by Kapusta » 3 years ago

Sublime Epiphany may not be a bad card. Though realistically only 2-3 modes will really matter often so I'm not too high on it. Definitely feels like a more splashy card than this deck needs.

Oh and btw, I've been playing a few games and have been loving the loam / cycle lands as a draw package. It also helps when I need to use Scavenger Grounds multiple times a game. I also like to use a surprise Glacial Chasm which loam helps me recur during the late game. Loam is staying in the deck as a value engine for sure.

Not too excited over the rules change to be honest. I believe the angriest I can make someone is permanently removing their commander in a game. No other act besides constantly targeting them will trigger a player harder. I would be angry myself so I don't think this is the deck for this new blink/flicker - exile strategy. However, I do believe this deck to be a strong one to fully utilize such a method of removal. I mean the colors are perfect and it definitely can follow our gameplan. I just think it puts a huge target on you and really wouldn't play well in a consistent group (Which my current Pheldy list does. They actually tolerate the deck and tend to like having me in more competitive games.)

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

epiphany is definitely overcosted for what we'd do with it. You're paying all that extra mana for the copy mode, which is useless to us. Otherwise it's barely better than Cryptic Command, which is a fine card but honestly not THAT great. Don't think it bears mention in the primer, tbh, it's that bad (here).

Just to clarify, you mean you're reusing scavenger grounds because of the extra cycling deserts, right? You can't recur the sacrificed desert with loam if you use the ability, since it'll exile itself (unless you can save it as an instant somehow).

The perma-exile plan would definitely be a tool of necessity, not an every-game plan by any stretch. And I think the witch is also a totally fine late-game value tool on her own, even if you never stifle anything. With enough mana she can keep things out of play most of the time, or protect anything she wants, including herself. I'd only use the perma-exile plan if my opponent is playing something that I just can't really deal with any other way, or playing something cEDH tier in a casual game, where they really deserve all the pain we can send them.

I don't think it puts a target on the deck. I guess if we have mistmeadow in play, then it might, but we don't have to play it unless we plan to actually do it. Once it's done, it's done - that's part of what I like about it compared to, say, imprisoned in the moon - killing us doesn't resolve the problem, their commander is still gone. They might get mad and hurt us out of vengeance, but the highest win% strat is probably to ignore us and try to cobble together a backup plan.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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