Phelddagrif: Show Weakness to Hide Your Strength

mr_abomination
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Post by mr_abomination » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
I'd say my second favorite card of this spoiler season was revealed today - Inspiring Refrain. Almost un-interactible, repeated CA. 6 cmc sorcery is hard to swallow, but setting it up early for 3 isn't terrible. Opinions on this bad boy?
I think Inspiring Refrain is definitely a fun include. You can set it up and as the game goes long you'll just keep getting value from it which is pretty much where this deck wants to be. I don't think anybody will waste a counter on it as it doesn't directly impact the boardstate.
Kapusta wrote:
3 years ago
Oversimplify - What doesnt simic get in edh anymore... An interesting type of board wipe but kinda medium on it.
Exile wipes are pretty powerful, and the token people get back hopefully helps smooth over some feels-bad from getting all your stuff exiled. I think I'm going to give it a shot.

On an unrelated note, what are some good value engine targets for Merchant Scroll to hit?

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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 3 years ago

I'm actually really excited about Perplexing Test for Phelddagrif. In my book, the most important element to any spell in this deck is being instant speed and I'm willing to pay some hefty prices for the ability to wait until the absolute last moment to act. This is notably and significantly worse than Rout, Cyclonic Rift, and Evacuation and probably worse than Fated Retribution. But I'm desperate enough to wipe at instant speed that I'd still give this heavy consideration - maybe not over the 3 and 4 mana wraths (Wrath of God et al, and including Hour of Revelation and Devastating Mastery as 3-4 mana in practice), but I'd play this over any 5+ CMC sorcery speed wrath effect.

Oversimplify I'm less enthused on - I think it's maybe a little better than Final Judgment if you absolutely need stuff not going to the 'yard, but probably worse than Terminus or Hallowed Burial. Those tokens can be no joke, and while hopefully they won't be pointed straight at you...you're likely the only player who won't have their own fractal protecting you, as getting a fractal would mean allowing 'grif to go to the command zone instead of your hand.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
I'd say my second favorite card of this spoiler season was revealed today - Inspiring Refrain. Almost un-interactible, repeated CA. 6 cmc sorcery is hard to swallow, but setting it up early for 3 isn't terrible. Opinions on this bad boy?
This is my kind of card. Incremental value stretched over multiple turns so that nobody really notices. Best case scenario, you drop it on turn 3 and draw 6+ cards over the course of the game for 3 mana. Worst case scenario, it's a dead topdeck in the very late game where you're probably already winning. I like it a lot. I think it's my second favorite card in the set and commander decks for Phelddy after the obvious choice.

I'd like to see some more discussion about Excavation Technique. With enough savvy it's double pseudo-Vindicate for four mana. It's a sorcery, sure, but realistically you're not going to be tapping out to cast this on turn 4, and four is low enough in the mid and late game that you'll still have enough mana available to be open for business.

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Post by Hawk » 3 years ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
3 years ago
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
I'd say my second favorite card of this spoiler season was revealed today - Inspiring Refrain. Almost un-interactible, repeated CA. 6 cmc sorcery is hard to swallow, but setting it up early for 3 isn't terrible. Opinions on this bad boy?
This is my kind of card. Incremental value stretched over multiple turns so that nobody really notices. Best case scenario, you drop it on turn 3 and draw 6+ cards over the course of the game for 3 mana. Worst case scenario, it's a dead topdeck in the very late game where you're probably already winning. I like it a lot. I think it's my second favorite card in the set and commander decks for Phelddy after the obvious choice.

I'd like to see some more discussion about Excavation Technique. With enough savvy it's double pseudo-Vindicate for four mana. It's a sorcery, sure, but realistically you're not going to be tapping out to cast this on turn 4, and four is low enough in the mid and late game that you'll still have enough mana available to be open for business.
I can see Inspiring Refrain being good. It's not even a total dead draw the way something like Ancestral Vision can be late-game: six to draw two is terrible, but not literally unplayable. I think it's "invisible" enough to not draw ire, making it a great value engine. I'd say anyone still experimenting with quirky stuff like Bounty of the Luxa, Kumena's Awakening, or other permanent-based value engines should definitely consider Refrain instead.

I'm still really not sold on Technique. Four mana for removal is a ton, and sorcery speed is awful. It's flexible, sure, and a possible 3-for-1 if we're playing right, but if we aren't able to get someone to play ball it is very overcosted compared to Council's Judgment, nevermind Beast Within and Generous Gift and Oblation. And, giving the biggest threat at the table a pile of treasures ain't nothing either - in particular, it makes Technique a really awkward option for removing pesky commanders because you're giving them the cash to pay their next Commander tax. I've found Pir's Whim which is in a few of Dirk's lists to be really awkward and disappointing, and I'd say that's generally going to be more reliable than this so I don't have high hopes for it.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Nice thing about oversimplify is that we can give someone a big fat fatty with hippo tokens. But yeah I'm still not huge on it. It's just ok.

Replication technique would be fine if we super cared about any particular land, but there's nothing so valuable that it makes sense imo.

Perplexing test isn't QUITE a worse evacuation. Certainly worse in 1v1 (unless I guess they have only tokens), but in the midgame the added control means we can play favorites a bit better. Give someone a bunch of hippos, then bounce nontokens so they can swing into someone else. Evac isn't my most favorite wipe, but I think this is comparable and worthy of consideration.

Muse Vortex is a sorcery, and as such it is horrible trash. Honestly I wouldn't even like it that much as an instant. Just play Pull from Tomorrow, you don't have to reveal anything and it's an instant. And I don't even like PfT that much either lol. We're many degrees removed from playability.
mr_abomination wrote:
3 years ago
I don't think anybody will waste a counter on it as it doesn't directly impact the boardstate.
I see people saying it should be countered in the mythicspoiler comments...I wonder if these people are playing the same format I am...
On an unrelated note, what are some good value engine targets for Merchant Scroll to hit?
Pulse of the Grid, Whispers of the Muse, Intuition to hit loam package, of the top of my head. Loam package is the main one for my build.

TheGildedGoose wrote:
3 years ago
I'd like to see some more discussion about Excavation Technique. With enough savvy it's double pseudo-Vindicate for four mana. It's a sorcery, sure, but realistically you're not going to be tapping out to cast this on turn 4, and four is low enough in the mid and late game that you'll still have enough mana available to be open for business.
My problem with any sorcery-speed removal - especially one where the selling point is that it can hit multiple things - is "why not just play a board wipe instead?"

It's a triple vindicate though. If we can't find even one opponent to share our goal, it's either 1v1 or we badly screwed up, so it's probably really reliable tbh (plus, what are they going to hit of ours that we care about anyway?). If it was an instant, I'd love it. But I think that delta is too wide. And the treasures ain't nothing.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

Chromaticus
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Post by Chromaticus » 3 years ago

Played a game last night with my budget Phelddy deck -

Lo and behold, someone else flipped over Phelddagrif as their commander!

The other 2 opponents were a spellslinging Vial Smasher the Fierce and Sakashima of a Thousand Faces partners combo and Hans Eriksson and Saffi Eriksdotter rule zero partner combo.

VERY different Phelddagrif decks as I found out with turn 2 Tempting Wurm into Forced Fruition and Heartbeat of Spring. Everyone else was dropping huge battle cruisers and I dropped 2 more basics.

My next turn I played Wrath of God to the chorus of groans and drew 7. Everyone redeployed like mad with the Forced Fruition Heartbeat of Spring combo, and I then dropped Planar Cleansing .

It was an odd game from then on - I felt like I was in the role of fun police, but there was no way I was going to let Avenger of Zendikar and Fiery Emancipation style cards hang out on the battlefield.

Some fun things — at various points of the game every player but me had an Avacyn, Angel of Hope in play. Omniscience made an appearance, as did Eternal Dominion.

The latter was my ultimate savior - I positioned the game where the player that cast it was my final opponent - he had a huge board by this time- but after the Hour of Revelation resolved and he went looking through my deck... needless to say, Telepathy wasn't going to take it home for him.

Only downside to the game is that because of all the hug enabled draw, my deck looked like board wipe.dec instead of the tamer beast that I think it really is. My opponent commented that I really like to blow stuff up :l

All in all, I think I played it the only way I could have to win (multi-player lethal represented on the board every time I wiped) just didn't love the role compared to my other games with the deck.

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Post by Dunadain » 3 years ago

Chromaticus wrote:
3 years ago
VERY different Phelddagrif decks as I found out with turn 2 Tempting Wurm into Forced Fruition and Heartbeat of Spring. Everyone else was dropping huge battle cruisers and I dropped 2 more basics.
It's funny how people assume I'm group hug when I sit down, even though the deck is pretty far removed from group hug decks.
Chromaticus wrote:
3 years ago
Only downside to the game is that because of all the hug enabled draw, my deck looked like board wipe.dec instead of the tamer beast that I think it really is. My opponent commented that I really like to blow stuff up :l

All in all, I think I played it the only way I could have to win (multi-player lethal represented on the board every time I wiped) just didn't love the role compared to my other games with the deck.
Yeah, I hate playing with group hug, I don't really understand why other people seem so excited to see one player playing it, but whatever, you probably did play right. In situations where the board seems to rebuild every turn, my favorite cards are Moment's Peace, so I don't have to do anything until someone starts swinging and Alchemist's Refuge so I can just flash in my wipes at the last possible second (by extension, instant speed wipes are great, but that's always the case).

Oversimplify I do like my exile effects, I think it's not good enough though, not because of the tokens our opponents get, phelddy is great at blocking big dumb creatures, but why spend 5 mana when we have a slew of sorcery speed creature wipes for 4 mana?
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Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
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Post by mr_abomination » 3 years ago

Promise of Loyalty seems like an interesting card. We don't have to bounce Griff in response so it's sort of like a normal 4 color wrath. It won't get rid of the most problematic permanents, although they won't be able to attack you. I think this is probably a meta call depending on how much triggered and activated abilities are relevant to your playgroup.
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Pulse of the Grid, Whispers of the Muse, Intuition to hit loam package, of the top of my head. Loam package is the main one for my build.
I've been wanting to try out the Loam package myself, but I don't have the money for fetches and certainly not for an intuition right now. All these old cards have shot up so much this past year. Any thoughts on a decent replacement tutor?

I grabbed the cycling deserts for cheap and I'll put the cycle duals back in for another try. I might also try out the normal cycle lands ah la Lonely Sandbar and friends, depends if I care about reusing scavenging grounds I suppose.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Honestly the new tutor (Solve the Equation) seems good.

Promise of Loyalty is adorable, but ultimately it's rarely the creatures that are attacking that are the biggest problem. I'd only consider it in a pretty low-powered meta.

Group hug is obnoxious. It seems like you probably did the best you could have, though having instant-speed wipes can really simplify those sorts of situations.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Muddle the mixture is an elite loam finding tool on a budget and very good in control shells. I would play it over the new sorcery fabricate if I couldn't afford intuition.

Being able to transmute for targeted removal or sylvan library or loam etc and especially being uncounterable for loam is nice.

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Post by mr_abomination » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Muddle the mixture is an elite loam finding tool on a budget and very good in control shells. I would play it over the new sorcery fabricate if I couldn't afford intuition.
Oh I do love muddle, thanks for the reminder that it can hit Loam.

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Post by Dunadain » 3 years ago

I've made two changes to my list recently.

I've actually taken out Once and Future I still think it's better than Wildest Dreams but I realized I don't need them anymore.

Graveyard recursion is good for two reasons: they can get back a critical card, and they are like tutors in that the card can become any card in your graveyard that you need. The first point is a bit moot since we don't need any one specific card, our deck is packed with redundancy. The second point is also weak, as I'd rather find a new card that my opponent didn't know I had.

Having said that, I've always kept Once and Future in because every once and awhile you really are going to need it and you'll be glad you had it.

The thing is, we now have Mystic Sanctuary and Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary, neither of them are nearly as powerful, but, together, they are enough recursion for me to feel comfortable and they're just lands whenever I don't need them.

I should note however, that I run Crop Rotation, Azorius Chancery, and fetch lands, so my deck has more ways to get them than other decks might. In it's place I'm adding Inspiring Refrain, my gut says it's not going to be good enough, but I want to give it a shot, it is a neat effect and I suspect my current list doesn't have as much draw as it should.
All cards are bad if you try hard enough.

Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada

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Post by mr_abomination » 2 years ago

Just had my first game in a long time over spelltable, and everything went exactly according to plan.

My opponents were Kaalia of the Vast, Galazeth Prismari, and my buddy's political Queen Marchesa deck. I was cut on blue for most of the game, so my counter options were limited, however despite that I decided to transmute my Muddle the Mixture for a Thaumatic Compass // Spires of Orazca which repeatedly saved my butt against the Kaalia player. People get way less salty when you Maze of Ith their big demons rather than destroying them (plus it can save an ally from having all their treasures destroyed by a Steel Hellkite).

I played fairly conservative most of the game, countering a protection spell vs a Soulfire Eruption (which the Galazeth player agreed not to target me with for fear of counter) and exiling an Avacyn, Angel of Hope. The largest play I made was countering a Temporal Trespass with a Spell Swindle and everyone erupted with laughter. It's hard to get angry over a spell swindle I've found. Countering that spell actually turned out to be the best thing I could have done because immediately afterwards the Galazeth player tried to cast Surge to Victory targeting the extra turn spell. I was able to use the panic to get others help me dig for an answer, casting FoF and Dig off my treasures in a bid to find a counterspell (and also sculpt my hand for the imminent final showdown).

Eventually Kaalia cheated out a Sower of Discord and killed the other two players, leaving just the two of us. Immediately I used the last of my treasures to cast Devastating Mastery and Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn, setting me up fairly nicely for the win. Due to various reanimation shenanigans he was able to rebuild his board faster than anticipated, however Song of the Dryads dealt with the commander and a perfectly timed Mystic Confluence (all three modes being bounce) removed the last blockers to let Pheldagriff get in for the final bit of damage.

Overall I think the game went fantastically with the final fight being close enough that no one felt like it was a blow out. I need to be more careful of on board tricks though; a Hammer of Purphoros token was all that stood between the Kaalia player dying from a well timed Insurrection (although ironically it did leave him low enough to be dealt with directly instead of with commander damage). I am loving the spell lands so far, they offer the perfect amount of versatility when I need it and a land when I don't.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Quickie review for MH2:

Blessed Respite - a passable fog effect. I really wish it did the Gaea's Blessing thing to give real mill protection so I could replace Nexus of Fate. As-is, I don't think it really outcompetes other fogs and it's not a reliable tool against mill, so meh.

Break Ties - it does things we want so I figured I'd mention it, but I don't actually think it has any reason to be run with so many better options.

Dress Down - interesting card. Counters an etb, and some other effects and cantrips. Stops a decent number of combos I guess. To me this looks similar to Interdict and co - potentially good, but maybe too niche to really merit a slot. But I haven't played with such an effect outside of Humility so maybe I'm underestimating it.

Esper Sentinel - really cool card I expect to be very good. Probably not for this deck, though. If it was an enchantment I'd love it (as long as I'm dreaming, how about a manaless land?).

Out of Time - finally a potentially exciting one for this deck. On one hand...hooo boy, that could be the board wipe to end all board wipes, locking all opposing commanders and all other creatures out of play essentially permanently, especially if we juice the numbers with hippo tokens. On the downside, we do have to play defense for the enchantment after that point, so that sucks, but we do run other enchantments already. I still think think is a hell of a card, and could probably be a good replacement for our existing neutralization removal sine those are also enchantments. It's definitely the card most likely to make a significant impact for the deck.

Said // Done - I like the modal options of value / answer, but the answer side is just too niche and overpriced for this to be any good unfortunately.

Solitude - This is one that will likely be dependent on meta speed. For a fast meta, having another free answer to many of the formats combos is a godsend. For slower metas...well, it's still ok. It's a 5 mana stp that comes with a chumper. It does annoy me to have another creature in the deck though, so it's an F-.

Subtlety - The blue one isn't nearly as good imo - it's a narrower FoW that isn't a permanent answer. I'd be ok with maybe one of those restrictions, but not both. (The green one doesn't bear mentioning imo)

Suspend - This card grows on my more every time I look at it. Here's a few reasons why:

-The cost is really, really nice.
-It exiles.
-highly commander-focused decks will have to decide if they're ok waiting 2 turns without their commanders. Some will likely decide they're not, in which case you just got a blue STP. noice.
-A lot of combos can be effectively broken up by removing one at a time. And you might bait out someone else's removal for the other half of the combo and direct attention toward the combo player, so that's all gravy. Same thing for any other major bomb.
-Maybe the nastiest reason - it gives us a REALLY good answer to particularly nasty commanders. Hit them with suspend, then counter the trigger to cast them leaving them in permanent exile. Ofc this only works if they don't just put it back in the CZ, but the threat of this happening will mean a lot of decks just accept suspend as a blue STP, which is hardly a bad result, especially if we don't have the stifle on-hand.

Overall I still think it's probably good but not completely insane - rare is the removal that really outclasses the other options, the deck usually just gets incremental improvements. But still, I think I dig this.

Urban Daggertooth - the ability to proliferate lifelink counters when triggered by Sorrow's Path is...oops, sorry, wrong deck. ;)

Verdant Command - I'm so annoyed that (1) this isn't a cycle and (2) the one we got has its primary mode making stupid squirrel tokens. Sigh.

Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth - totally fine land you can run if you want I guess. When you use it with Sorrow's Path though...

Alright, that's all I'm seeing. Top picks are:

1) Out of Time
2) Suspend
3) Solitude

Not nearly as exciting as MH1, but still some solid pickups I think.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Dunadain » 2 years ago

I also thought Blessed Respite could have been that pe3rfect anti-mill card we've been looking for, but no such luck =/.

I don't think I'll run Solitude as I've already decided Force of Will isn't good enough and I feel a free counter spell is more useful than a free creature removal.

I'm definetely excited for Suspend.

I wasn't a fan of Out of Time when I saw it, I figured it fit in the same boat as Oblivion Ring effects, but I hadn't thought of it when compared to neutralizing removal, now I must rethink it... hmm...
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Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 2 years ago

Out of Time is good Magic card. Effectively Oublietteing every creature on the board at the same mana value until you let it get blown up can be backbreaking. It's versatile, too, in that you can run up the clock with hippos at EOT to remove one or two creatures forever. You can protect it reasonably well and besides, with the suite of sweepers letting it get blown up isn't the end of the world. I like it a lot.

I think you're underrating Dress Down a little bit. In addition to countering ETBs, creature combos, and stopping Hullbreacher, it synergizes with your removal spells in that it neuters whatever property is stopping you from interacting with it. I think it's still too niche, but in theory Song of the Dryads on Narset, Enlightened Master sounds like a good time.

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
2 years ago
in theory Song of the Dryads on Narset, Enlightened Master sounds like a good time.
...but isn't that what Out of Time is for? ;)

(But seriously hitting hexproof commanders is another nice bonus that out of time provides - although it's worse against planeswalker commanders, so there is some tradeoff)

@Dunadain - I'm curious what your reasoning is for ditching FoW - I've always liked that it worked as a panic 2-for-1 counterspell in a competitive setting, or a 5-cost counterspell for when the pressure is off.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Dunadain » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
@Dunadain - I'm curious what your reasoning is for ditching FoW - I've always liked that it worked as a panic 2-for-1 counterspell in a competitive setting, or a 5-cost counterspell for when the pressure is off.
@DirkGently it absolutely murders our hand, that's all lol. I don't know, might put it in again sometime. How often is it just a more expensive counter spell for you? Because for me it was a lot of the time.
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Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Murders in terms of taking up space, or in terms of 2-for-1 hurting the hand too badly? Obviously a 2-for-1 is undesirable, but I'd usually only use that mode if either I was going to lose the game otherwise, or I had a powerful draw engine going that made the extra card irrelevant.

I cast it for 5 quite a bit, but I don't really consider that a problem. If I replaced it with some 3-cmc variant it wouldn't make it THAT much better - we usually have a lot of open mana by the time we'd want to cast a counterspell against a "normal" deck - but it shores us up against fast combo decks and provides an extra trick up the sleeve in a war of interaction.

If I knew I was only going to play in lower-powered metas I'd cut it for something more efficient, but I usually favor building for a competitive environment at the expense of the weaker one. Especially since a degree of inefficiency is desirable politically in lower-powered metas anyway (although there's an argument that playing a famous "power card" like FoW can draw attention in a low-powered meta, even if it's not a strong card in that environment)
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Dunadain » 2 years ago

I just realized that Out of Time means that Wargate can now be a board wipe if we need it, yeah Out of Time is going in for sure.

You know it's funny, I've been experimenting with a different tutor package that didn't use Wargate at all and ran Darksteel Mutation instead of Song of the Dryads so that I could transmute for it with Muddle the Mixture. Overall, I think the tutor package was slightly worse, but tutor chaining for Song of the Dryads is painfully clunky (Muddle the Mixture into Merchant Scroll into Mystical Tutor into having to somehow draw a card into Wargate into Song of the Dryads) and Wargate is often a kinda weird card to have in hand when you don't need anything. However, now that Wargate can tutor for Out of Time, my fancy new tutor package that I was gonna share with you all went from a legitimate alternative, though probably slightly weaker overall, to not even being worth mentioning =/.

Back to the lab again, lol
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Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
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Post by Sefir » 2 years ago

Hi! I recently developed a taste for Phelddagrif and I discovered this thread.

So first of all, great work. Very impressive way of political thinking.
Secondly, is Dust Bowl a card that can be considered in this deck? Is continual hate of annoying non-basic lands+a way to keep sacrificing Mystic Sanctuary to recur it with Loam and replay it (making those 3 an ideal Intuition Package) too much in terms of power plays and attention drawing?
Finally, a hypothetical question. If Questing Phelddagrif was actually legendary, would you consider him instead of the normal Phelddagrif in the helm? Is the bounce ability more important than the ability to pump and give protection from Black and Red?
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Post by Dunadain » 2 years ago

Sefir wrote:
2 years ago
Hi! I recently developed a taste for Phelddagrif and I discovered this thread.

So first of all, great work. Very impressive way of political thinking.
Secondly, is Dust Bowl a card that can be considered in this deck? Is continual hate of annoying non-basic lands+a way to keep sacrificing Mystic Sanctuary to recur it with Loam and replay it (making those 3 an ideal Intuition Package) too much in terms of power plays and attention drawing?
Finally, a hypothetical question. If Questing Phelddagrif was actually legendary, would you consider him instead of the normal Phelddagrif in the helm? Is the bounce ability more important than the ability to pump and give protection from Black and Red?
Welcome to the team! The Phelddagrif team grows! lol

I've actually considered Dust Bowl a couple times, not only is it a reusable graveyard recursion + reusable land hate option it also provides a clunky way of keeping yourself from milling out (sac Mystic Sanctuary, cast Life from the Loam to get it back, put Life from the Loam on top with Mystic Sanctuary's aility.) probably isn't that good, since you aren't actually doing anything, your just keeping yourself from milling out but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. (If you really like the anti-mill + grave recursion tech, but are against Dust Bowl you could always run Rath's Edge, the ping might even be relevant from time to time.)

But yeah, people HATE Strip Mine locks, so I'm still not sure if it's worth it. Heck I replaced Wasteland with Ghost Quarter, despite the fact that the card is, for the most part, worse, because the table loses their mind the second they see Life from the Loam + Strip Mine. Which brings me to my second point: we already have a recurable land hate option in Life from the Loam + Ghost Quarter, so your only getting the extra grave recursion by using Dust Bowl. Finally, having to pay to activate as opposed to the Ghost Quarter requires isn't the worst thing ever, but it's not great.

Idk, if you think your group will be okay with it, give it a shot and let us know how it goes, just remember rule #1 is to be invisible, so if you find Dust Bowl is drawing attention, it's probably not worth it.

I'd say Questing Phelddagrif is significantly worse, though their was someone on this thread that used him as a rule 0ed commander instead. The pump ability actually sounds really nice as it allows you to speed up the pheldagrif clock + grow Questing Phelddagrif to be able to block bigger stuff. But the bounce ability is HUGE, the ability to void basically all removal out there (who plays Sudden Spoiling, lol though I suppose that new Sudden Edict might be a bit frustrating for us), the fact that we can bounce him to avoid our own wipes, and the fact that he can block big, non tramply creatures then bounce to hand before damage, is all super useful. Also, when you get to the 1v1 stage, the ability to give Phelddagrif flying more or less for free (since our wincon is commander damage we don't actually care about life gain) makes it much easier to connect with Phelddagrif. Gaining flying at the cost of allowing our opponent to draw a card seems much worse.

Again, if you want to try it, go ahead and tell us how it goes, my thought on Questing Phelddagrif are all theoretical, so if you get some actual testing done with it, that would be much more valueable than my theory crafting.
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Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada

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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

Agreed with what @Dunadain said on both counts - the fact that dust bowl is repeatable can give it a high threat profile for sure. I actually like his idea about using GQ over strip mine, I might make that swap. I have had to talk the table into relaxing about the potential strip mine recursion, even though anyone sane can see that it would be an insane use of resources to try to strip lock the entire table with LftL. Even if you have exploration and a cycling land you'd only be able to stall out 2 people, assuming they play no additional ramp, etc. It's only even remotely realistic in 1v1 and usually by that point it's just too slow to be meaningful anyway.

Also agreed about the bounce being crucial - as nice as the buff is, it doesn't really help us in the part of the game where we need help, and being an on-board trick it could make us look kinda threatening when we're sitting on tons of green. The flying thing is a double-edged sword - it is pretty nice to be able to give enemy cards without needing to bounce phelddagrif, but free flying is definitely handy for ending the game. The pro/black red thing is pretty lame too. If I could mix and match stuff, I'd probably take the bounce and flying ability from OG phelddagrif, and replace trample with +1/+1. Maybe one day we'll see Phelddagrif 3, who knows. I'd bet money that if they do, he'll be legendary this time at least.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Dunadain » 2 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
2 years ago
Maybe one day we'll see Phelddagrif 3, who knows. I'd bet money that if they do, he'll be legendary this time at least.
Phelddagrif is an anagram for Garfield PHD. As such, he is technically a vanity card, and while vanity cards can be reprinted, new ones can't be made, so I think the phelddagrif 3.0 dream is just that, a dream.

However, the Wikipedia page (I only use the most reliable of sources, lol) says "The vanity rules now prevent making vanity cards of Wizards employees" and while I think Richard Garfield still contributes to some projects from time to time, I'm pretty sure he's not officially employed by WOTC. So maybe there's a loophole that allows our flying hippo to rise again?
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Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
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Post by DirkGently » 2 years ago

The same page (I assume) says:
Words from existing vanity cards are grandfathered in and thus can be reprinted.
So I'm pretty sure it's still on the table. Honestly I'm kinda surprised it hasn't happened already. The griff has pretty impressive staying power as a commander for its age. It's easily the most popular commander of that era - on EDHrec it's the most popular commander until freaking sliver overlord in scourge, even surpassing Captain Sisay and Chainer, Dementia Master.

Of course, if they made it now, it'd probably be some forced group hug symmetrical garbage that's """""political""""" in the baby way of "I do a nice thing for everyone, so now be nice to me ok?".
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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