Vadrok, Apex of Thunder - Jeskai Mutate Combo Durdle

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MeowZeDung
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

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If you're a nerd/90's kid like me, sing to the tune of the "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" theme song:


Jeskai Mutate Combo Durdle
Jeskai Mutate Combo Durdle
JESKAI MUTATE COMBO DURDLE
Elemental Dino Cat
Durdle Power!

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Table of Contents


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Introduction

Howdy, I'm MeowZeDung. I've been playing Commander for about 5 years, and almost exclusively playing the Jeskai wedge in the format for about a year. As such, I've developed a pretty good sense of what these colors can do well and what resources they have at their disposal.

I tend to build "focused" leaning toward "optimized" decks rather than either theme/jank/super-casual or competitive builds. Vadrok, Apex of Thunder lives in the focused/optimized zone quite comfortably since the mutate mechanic is by no means broken, but it IS moderately costed with a relevant payoff ability. If you build a Vadrok, Apex of Thunder deck you probably won't strike fear into your opponents when you reveal your commander, but sometimes that's great because you get to fly (like a pterodactyl) under the radar until you're ready to strike.

An important note about my general Commander philosophy and this deck specifically: I like powerful magic, but I like having to work for it a bit and preserve fun factor and surprise/randomness rather than go all out competitive. As such, while this is a deck looking to win via an infinite combo (by definition that is powerful magic), it doesn't include any that require less than 4 cards. It also doesn't include a bunch of ways to tutor combo pieces up.

So let's take a look at Vadrok and get our Jeskai mutate combo durdle on!




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Commander Analysis

There are several things that immediately come to mind when looking at Vadrok (apart from "Woah, Thunder Pterodactyl Cat is cool!"):

First, Mantis Rider in the command zone is not really where you want to be. This deck isn't running Vadrok for it's stats.

Second, mutate is not the greatest mechanic in the world: 1) It's parasitic, meaning it's probably only ever going to be found in the Ikoria and C20 sets and is unlikely to have many (or any) new additions over time. 2) The depth of Jeskai mutate cards came across as pretty lackluster compared to Green and Black. There are some cool ones for sure, and there's certainly a Vadrok cat tribal deck to be had using Huntmaster Liger, Regal Leosaur, Cubwarden, and the like. This deck isn't it. Apart from Vadrok itself, the deck uses only two other mutate cards. (A quick shoutout to @Sinis who has a neat Vadrok token deck that does use several of the other Jeskai mutate cards here) 3) Then of course there is the consideration that mutate has the same problem that auras have always had in MtG; namely that they lead to massive blowouts if the mutate target is removed out from under the mutator. Since mutate is affected by commander tax the same as CMC, this is a very real concern for Vadrok decks. More on this later on.

Third, a 4cmc mutate cost that allows for a 3cmc or less noncreature card to be cast from the graveyard is not exactly mana efficient. Vadrok isn't about cheating big or expensive things into play. It's more about playing small ball and getting the right things back from the graveyard at the right time. Note that the card must be cast, albeit for free, so lands are off limits in addition to creatures. It ends up being a weird crossover of a Sun Titan and a Torrential Gearhulk. . . sort of.

You may enjoy this deck if you:
  • Like using your graveyard as a resource
  • Don't want to be totally dependent on your commander
  • Like combos, but not the same 2 or 3 card combo every game
  • Want one of your combo pieces in the command zone
This may all sound like bad news, but let's take a look at the bright side. Vadrok gives the deck a key element: consistency. This list has many permutations of 4-card infinite combos, and Vadrok is able to functionally be one of those four cards whenever you are ready to combo off. This means that sometimes you won't even play Vadrok until the game winning turn, although the deck also has a number of ways for Vadrok to give repeatable value before you have a combo set up.

You won't enjoy this deck if you:
  • Just want to ramp and play battlecruiser magic
  • Don't like playing combo
  • Aren't interested in playing a complex and puzzle like deck
  • Want to turn creatures sideways
Putting this all together makes Vadrok unique or, depending on your perspective, downright strange. It's a deck sure to surprise the folks at your LGS or kitchen table playgroup the first time they see it, and it has a lot of resilience and play to it even when they know what it's trying to do. It does a good job of encapsulating the blend of chaos, explosive play, depth, and suite of answers that makes Jeskai a blast to play.



Alternate Commanders

This build is quite unique in the way that it uses Vadrok's specific ability, so I don't recommend just putting a different commander at the helm of these 99 cards. However, if you like the idea of a mutate deck, combo deck, or jeskai deck but Vadrok just isn't the Dino Kitty for you, maybe one of these legendaries will do it for you:
  • Illuna, Apex of Wishes - Illuna seems like a good way to cheat out an eldrazi titan or Blightsteel Colossus while also being in red which has several ways to grant haste. I haven't researched it much, but I imagine Illuna will play out like a lot of the powerful cascade decks. Green and red are good colors for non-permanents that can generate tokens for Illuna to mutate onto as well.

  • Nethroi, Apex of Death - I'm curious to see how folks build this, but I see a powerful self-mill and/or elf tribal build here myself. Nethroi is a bit like a Genesis Wave that pulls from your graveyard, so you know what you're getting ahead of time, and lots of cheap elf bodies to mutate onto are great.

  • Otrimi, the Ever-Playful - Of the mutate commanders that aren't Vadrok, this is the one I personally think would be most fun. Sultai is a powerful color combo and it grants access to a lot of base creatures that are safe or powerful to mutate onto, such as Nightveil Predator, Elusive Tormentor // Insidious Mist, Reaper of the Wilds, Cold-Eyed Selkie, and so on. @DirkGently has done some cool theorycrafting here with the main strategy being mutations onto manlands to keep the mutate stack relatively safe. The thread also contains some good discussion around Vadrok, Apex of Thunder and other mutate commanders.

  • Zedruu the Greathearted - The GOAT might just be the best Jeskai commander for the 4-card-combo durdle style of play as exemplified in @tstorm823's primer here. In fact, that list runs one of the same combos as this Vadrok list with Arcbond.

  • Kraum, Ludevic's Opus + partner - a lot of card draw is essential to durdling and getting to a 4-card-combo, and Kraum fits the bill. I use him and Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder to pilot another combo durdle deck here.

  • Kykar, Wind's Fury/Elsha of the Infinite - if you think the limitation of 4-card-combos only is ridiculous, and you still want to combo off with a Jeskai commander, look no further than the big bird and monk lady. Both can combo well, and both are cEDH material if that's your thing. I've got a Kykar primer that's more in the focused/optimized range here.


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Deck History

Vadrok, Apex of Thunder is a new legendary, so this deck doesn't really have any history yet, but the color wedge and combos within do. As such it's a decent blend of new magic and old magic. I've wanted to build a deck that revolves around damage reflection, lifelink, and indestructibility for some time, so this list has evolved mutated out of previous brainstorming sessions, such as this one with Sevinne, the Chronoclasm.

I looked at a lot of options for Vadrok, Apex of Thunder here, some a lot worse than others, and had some good strategic discussions. Ultimately I settled on the combo route.

As it gets played over the coming months and years it will see a number of changes mutations.


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Current Decklist
Jeskai Mutate Combo Durdle

Commander (1)

Combo

Approximate Total Cost:



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Card Choices

As noted in the introduction, this deck is looking to win with 4-card infinite combos, which merits further explanation here. They don't have to be 4 specific cards, but rather cards out of four categories: lifelink, indestructibility, damage, and reflection. Many more details about the combos will be forthcoming throughout this section and the Deck Strategy section, but for now you need to understand what the goal is and what constitutes a relevant combo piece. So, before looking at each individual card and its contributions to the deck, below is a breakdown of some of this deck's infinite combos and explanations as to how they work so you have a basic understanding of what you want to be doing.



Example #1:

Lifelink Jeskai Charm + Indestructibility Gideon Blackblade + Damage Collective Defiance + Reflection Arcbond.

With Gideon Blackblade in play as a creature on your turn you activate his +1 to grant another creature indestructible. You then grant them both lifelink with Jeskai Charm and the ability to reflect damage with Arcbond + Vadrok's mutate replaying Arcbond. Finally, you deal some damage to one of them with Collective Defiance, which sets off a chain of infinite damage reflection back and forth between your two indestructible creatures, burning out your opponents while keeping you alive via lifelink. Note that each of these combo pieces can be bought back from the graveyard with Vadrok's mutate trigger, and in this case you must either use it on Arcbond or have the creature other than Gideon Blackblade be a damage reflector that can target a creature such as Boros Reckoner.

This is a good first example because it shows that using 1 card from each of the 4 categories is inefficient as it will generally require multiple creatures in play, multiple mutates, or a single mutate to recast of one of the pieces a second time. Strictly speaking, it's not an actual four card combo, but more like 5-6 cards and a whoooooooole lot of mana (16 to be exact). Most of the combos in the deck will use cards that cover multiple categories or 2 + cards from the same category, as in the next example.




Example #2:

Indestructibility Chance for Glory + Reflection Arcbond + Reflection Narset's Reversal + Lifelink and damage Deafening Clarion.

With two creatures in play you resolve Chance for Glory granting indestructibility, then cast Arcbond. Respond with Narset's Reversal, returning the Arcbond to hand. Resolve the copy and then recast Arcbond a second time. Lastly, cast Deafening Clarion choosing both the lifelink and damage modes. Your indestructible lifelinkers will now infinitely reflect lifelink damage back and forth as well as to each player, thus killing your opponents while gaining you life.

A side note: The lifelink pieces are only strictly necessary in the infinite combos involving Arcbond to keep you from killing yourself, but they are incredibly useful for high level synergies that you will leverage throughout the game before you go infinite - especially with the likes of Heartless Hidetsugu, Star of Extinction + a reflect creature, and Coalhauler Swine.

You can see that we gained some efficiency by using two cards from the same category (reflection in this case, with Narset's Reversal being super flexible as a means of protecting combos as well as actively participating in them) and a card that covers two different categories with Deafening Clarion. Even with all of that the combo is still not down to 4 cards since creatures had to already be in play and Arcbond had to be cast twice, whether via Narset's Reversal or from the graveyard with Vadrok, Apex of Thunder. So how about a true 4-card-combo example?




Example #3:

Reflector Spitemare + Reflector #2 Guilty Conscience + Indestructibility Flawless Maneuver + Damage Izzet Charm.

Enchant Spitemare with the Guilty Conscience, make it indestructible with Flawless Maneuver and then zap it with Izzet Charm to make it do an infinite loop of damage to itself and any target creature/player and burn your opponents out. Vadrok can bring all of these pieces except Spitemare from the graveyard. So, for example, after resolving the Guilty Conscience in this scenario you could mutate Vadrok onto Spitemare, casting Izzet Charm from the graveyard and in response cast Flawless Maneuver from your hand for free.

Consider one more example of a true 4-card-combo.




Example #4:

Reflector Coalhauler Swine + Reflector #2 Pariah + Indestructibility Boros Charm + Damage Boros Charm again.

Enchant the big pig with Pariah, and make it indestructible with Boros Charm. Then mutate Vadrok onto the swine to make a majestic thunder pterodactyl pig cat that casts Boros Charm again targeting yourself with the 4 damage. Pariah sends that damage to the indestructible baconator, who sends it out to all your opponents and back to itself again via Pariah, looping endlessly until you win.



Those should give you a flavor of what the deck is trying to accomplish without listing every permutation of combo pieces that will go infinite. Now you will be able to appreciate the value of each card as it is discussed individually.


Ramp
Ramp
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A Jeskai ramp package is limited compared to any green deck because you don't get Cultivate, Explosive Vegetation, Birds of Paradise, mana elves, Utopia Sprawl, etc. You'll be more reliant on mana rocks, which come with the upsides of having a low cmc while only requiring generic mana to cast, thus allowing for consistent early game plays that both fix and ramp. You can get cute with stuff like Dreamscape Artist, but at 2 mana with a 3 mana activation cost and without native haste you run the risk of a dead draw in the mid to late game. Similarly, Pollywog Symbiote can cut your mutate costs and make a big difference in the game, but it's vulnerable and only helps with one specific mana cost. The ramp in this deck looks to strike a balance between early game consistency, still-relevant late game plays, quality fixing, putting lands onto the battlefield, and explosive combo turns.

  • Sol Ring - It almost feels silly to offer an explanation for including it. Fast mana is good, T1 Sol Ring + Signet/Talisman is a pretty iconic Commander power play, and other formats either ban Sol Ring or consider it the best card available. It's one of the few cards less than 2-3 cmc in the deck you might consider playing off of a mutate trigger.

  • Arcane Signet - Here's fast fixing that doesn't require another mana source to use. I can't see how it won't be a format staple for a long time to come.

  • Azorius Signet, Boros Signet, Izzet Signet - They're not quite as good as the newer Arcane Signet, but the old reliables get the job done. You aren't in green, so ramp in the form of mana rocks is a concession you have to make to some extent, and these are better than the 3 cmc variants in most cases.

  • Talisman of Conviction, Talisman of Creativity, Talisman of Progress - These are slightly better than the guild signets, and slightly worse than Arcane Signet. You won't mind the pain from these so much with the various ways to gain life sprinkled throughout the deck and the fact that winning at 1 life is still winning, but you should still be aware of it.

  • Walking Atlas - Jeskai doesn't have a lot of ways to ramp that involve putting additional lands onto the battlefield, which is IMHO the best way to ramp. Walking Atlas gives you that ability early enough to ramp you into a mutation if you need/want it unlike Solemn Simulacrum and gives you the body to mutate onto unlike Worn Powerstone. A cautionary note though: you may not want to keep an opening hand with Atlas and 2 lands since it will effectively be a do-nothing until you draw into more lands. An opener with Atlas and 3 lands is likely to draw the fourth land in time to ramp with the activated ability, and an opening 7 with Atlas and 4 lands is great since you won't even mind your hand "flooding" a bit since you get to activate Atlas multiple times.

  • Chromatic Lantern - Lantern is a tremendous way to fix mana for 3+ color decks, especially the non-green ones. You'll take the ramp from wherever you can get it, but this is more about the fixing and ramp is a cherry on top.

  • Hazoret's Monument - This monument reduces the cost of all your Vadrok mutations while also filtering your hand and filling your graveyard. Many of the damage reflectors in the deck are red creatures as well.

  • Smothering Tithe - Smothering Tithe is not about ramping fast and early, but rather sheer mana production. Tithe has the added advantage of giving colored mana and at an incredible rate assuming your opponents are actively trying to draw cards, as nearly all commander decks are. It also goes infinite in a combo detailed in the deck strategy section here.

  • Mana Geyser - Many of the deck's combos are very mana intensive, especially if it is necessary to mutate Vadrok, bounce it back to hand, then mutate again. Geyser can fuel a big, expensive combo turn on its own. It goes even better with Bonus Round or Narset's Reversal.


Draw/Loot/Rummage
Draw/Loot/Rummage
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Whereas the green decks have the advantage when it comes to ramp and fixing, blue decks can draw cards amazingly well. Red contributes some chaotic looting/rummaging/wheeling elements to your draw package, and white some defensive and tempo options. With Vadrok, Apex of Thunder in the command zone you're looking to get cards into the graveyard, so the deck's draw spell package is built around drawing and filling the yard at the same time whenever possible.

  • Gamble - This is not technically a loot effect, but it's close enough to consider it one. Gamble is the only tutor in the deck, and it's "downside" will be just fine by you since Vadrok makes a combo piece in the yard just about as good as one in hand. Just be aware that if you find yourself in a position where you need to tutor up a creature or land with this, things could go bad. It makes for a great T1 play if you have a land-heavy hand and you wouldn't mind losing one.

  • Faithless Looting - A red format staple that's great for sculpting your hand in the early game while filling your graveyard for later.

  • Nin, the Pain Artist - Nin is an interesting one, and she checks a lot of boxes that you need checked. First and foremost, she's a source of card advantage and often a very good one. Second, you have access to several ways to leverage her ability to your advantage: with Boros Reckoner or similar to reflect the damage instead of merely nuking one of your one creatures for cards, with Swans of Bryn Argoll, Nin's BFF, to draw twice as many cards without killing a creature, or with Basilisk Collar to plink away at opposing critters with a deathtouch BB gun or at your own with a lifelink bazooka. Third, she's a cheap creature that does all of this, and you need creatures to mutate onto while remaining a relatively creature light deck.

  • Frantic Search - This delightful instant filters your early draws to ensure you hit land drops, fills your graveyard, and can effectively be replayed with a mutate for 1 mana after you factor in the lands untapping. Once you have a repeatable mutate engine online, Frantic Search can be one of your more important durdle cards as it draws, discards, and untaps again and again. The three Ravnica bouncelands (Azorius Chancery, Boros Garrison, and Izzet Boilerworks) are in the deck specifically for use with Frantic Search.

    The best case scenario (late-game) is to cast Bonus Round twice in a turn using either Narset's Reversal or a mutation, then cast Frantic Search. That puts you at 10 mana spent (3 for Bonus Round, 4 to mutate and cast Bonus Round again, and 3 for Frantic Search) and up to 12 lands untapped for a net gain of two mana (more with the Ravnica bouncelands), 8 cards drawn, and 8 cards discarded. If you have a way to mutate repeatedly and fire off Bonus Round once more, you can really get ahead on mana on subsequent Frantic Search mutations. Rinse and repeat until you've got enough mana and have found all necessary combo pieces.

  • Windfall - Have you discarded a bunch of cards to Nahiri's Wrath or Vanish into Memory? Or maybe you've just run out of gas and don't have a juicy mutate target in the graveyard at the moment? Windfall is your ticket to a full grip. Commander is a format where everybody wants to draw LOTS of cards, so you can often piggyback onto someone else's Blue Sun's Zenith, Rhystic Study, Grim Haruspex, or whatever. Windfall also goes infinite in this list as an alternate win con if damage isn't going to get it done for whatever reason. That combo is detailed in the deck strategy section here.

  • Rhystic Study - You will occasionally play at a table where everyone does their darnedest to pay for Rhystic Study, but that tends to require teamwork on your opponents' parts since one is often not willing to pay unless they all pay. When it does go unchecked for even one or two rounds of the table it's phenomenal card advantage. In this deck Rhystic Study is particularly good because if it gets Disenchanted Vadrok can bring it right back.

  • Collective Defiance - Modal cards tend to be useful, and here you have a gem for this deck. It recycles your hand when nothing particularly useful is available. It's also good if you just want some of what you do have in hand to go to your graveyard for future mutate triggers. The damage modes can set your combo into motion and a mutation can cast it from the graveyard. If you have Arcbond or Guilty Conscience (and you're desperate) you can follow one of them up with Collective Defiance escalated into two modes to start your damage loop and hope you draw into some instant speed indestructibility/lifelink to respond with to the triggers on the stack. Since escalate is an additional cost and not part of the casting cost, you can pay for it when casting the base spell off a mutate trigger.

  • Jeskai Ascendancy - If you've never played with this card you are in for a treat. It is an absolute house in most Jeskai decks, which tend to be creature light. This deck is no exception, currently sitting at 45 noncreature spells. While Ascendancy does not provide card advantage it does provide excellent filtering and card selection. Plus you can take advantage of the loot by setting up for future mutate triggers. While the deck isn't combat oriented, the pump effect can be made use of defensively, and untapping Walking Atlas or a lifelinking Heartless Hidetsugu multiple times per turn seems fun.

  • Swans of Bryn Argoll - Nin, the Pain Artist's BFF and one of the biggest sources of card advantage for the deck. You have lots of ways to deal the damage to the Swans yourself, the best among them being Heartless Hidetsugu + Pariah, Star of Extinction, Blasphemous Act, and the various damage reflectors that can target creatures. With Swans in play and a burn spell such as Collective Defiance in the graveyard, a Vadrok mutate trigger can be a draw spell in a pinch.

  • Vanish into Memory - Here's some solid gold that doesn't see nearly enough play in decks running blue and white. You don't mind the discard upon the creature's re-entry since you want the yard full anyway, but you can also be picky about your target and leverage this to your advantage. One strong play is to exile a creature with several +1/+1 counters on it which will return with fewer or no counters on your upkeep. Timed right this can be temporary removal as well as card advantage. In a tight spot you can also use this as a way to protect one of your own creatures. A lot of your creatures have symmetrical power and toughness, but you can net a card by blinking Swans of Bryn Argoll, Truefire Captain, or Heartless Hidetsugu.

  • Whirlwind of Thought - Here's a great way to get ahead on cards in a durdle deck. Whirlwind helps to offset the discard activation costs from Thalakos Scout and Skywing Aven, especially if you are going off with Frantic Search or Windfall + Smothering Tithe.


Removal
Removal
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Often boring but always necessary, a deck's removal suite needs to have flexible options for getting rid of all kinds of permanents - preferably at instant speed - as well as dealing with multiple problems at once or wiping the board. This deck's removal is tailored around its combos and many of these cards can be used multiple times thanks to Vadrok's mutate trigger for when you need to slow the game down and be more controlling than combo-centered.

  • Generous Gift - A format staple in white for getting a thing gone at instant speed, whether creature, enchantment, artifact, planeswalker, or land. Save it for when you REALLY need it or a player is running away with the game.

  • Chaos Warp - The red version of a Generous Gift-like effect is better in the sense that it can deal with indestructible permanents, but worse in the sense that it can be far more disastrous than giving your opponent a 3/3 depending on what they flip over while resolving the warp. Still essential to saving your bacon or stopping a runaway opponent from time to time.

  • Nahiri's Wrath - Here's a red card that should see more play than it does. Marvelous with Rielle, the Everwise, or even if you just have a Windfall to follow it up with. Easy enough to leverage with your damage reflection creatures. Most importantly, the discard is an additional cost, so you can cast Nahiri's Wrath from the graveyard with a mutate trigger, discard even just a single 1 cmc card for the additional cost, and that will suffice as your damage dealing combo piece.

  • Sweltering Suns - This is not the world's greatest board wipe by any means, but it has a lot of things going for it here: it's 3 mana and can be cast off a mutate trigger, it cycles when you don't want/need it in hand, and it plays nice with indestructible damage reflection creatures, larger lifelinking ones like Coalhauler Swine, or good old Swans of Bryn Argoll. The ability to cast it over and over each turn cycle can make it downright oppressive to token decks or smaller tribes like elves/goblins. If you have enough mana available and a way to bounce / re-mutate with Vadrok, Sweltering Suns can become a build-your-own Starstorm. Definitely not an optimal play, but sometimes you'll need an in-case-of-emergency-break-glass card, and Sweltering Suns can be just that.

  • Star of Extinction - Here's a big damage wipe that you'll pay a premium for, but you will deal with the most problematic land on the board and make the superfriends player cry. Look for ways to leverage this with your damage reflectors and indestructibilty/lifelink. Star of Extinction hitting a Mogg Maniac and Spiteful Sliver = a dead opponent.

  • Blasphemous Act - You want your board wipes to be as asymmetrical as possible, and with several ways in the deck to make your critters indestructible and/or make use of direct damage via lifelink/reflection, Blasphemous Act fits the bill. This has the potential to be a =wipe the board and draw 13 if Swans of Bryn Argoll is in play, or =wipe the board, deal 13 to each opponent and gain 26 if a lifelinking Coalhauler Swine is in play.


Bounce/Mutate
Bouncers
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As previously mentioned, the deck is built such that you may not need to mutate Vadrok until the game-winning turn, or in some rare instances never at all. However, in most games you will be looking for a way to set up a mutation engine where you can repeatedly mutate Vadrok and get some repeatable value out of it without piling up commander tax or running many more mutate creatures. The simplest ways to accomplish both at the same time is to return Vadrok to your hand or mutate another creature onto the pile.

This deck runs a couple of other mutate creatures and a handful of creatures that can bounce themselves. They work together very well because you can 1) play a self bouncing creature 2) mutate Vadrok onto it 3) mutate another creature onto the pile to get additional triggers, then 4) bounce the whole pile to your hand to set up for it all over again.

  • Glitterfang - Here you have the cheapest of the cheap. We're talking yard-sale pricing. The upside is great: play Glitterfang for a mere , mutate onto it, attack with a hasty 3/3 flyer (because why not), then both Glitterfang and Vadrok come back to your hand at the end of your turn. The downside is real though: by itself this will only get you one mutate per turn cycle, it is vulnerable to removal with no instant speed way of returning to your hand, and you're using a slot in your COMMANDER deck for a 1/1 for 1 which does nothing without your commander. The upside outweighs the downside though, and you won't be too upset if someone Counterspells or casts Swords to Plowshares or on your Glitterfang, and you'll likely only pay commander tax one time before bouncing Vadrok to hand and getting back to the 4 mana mutates.

  • Darting Merfolk - This is closer to full retail pricing, but the flavor text is on point: opponents will have better luck catching water with a net. Instant speed bounce that you can control is great and it allows you to execute multiple mutates per turn for as long as you have the mana, though it is intense on specifically, so plan ahead! In reality 2 mana for Darting Merfolk, 4 mana to mutate, 1 mana to bounce, then repeat for a total of 14 mana is an awfully steep cost for two spells of 3cmc or less from the yard. You won't be looking to do that unless it outright wins you the game or you've generated absurd mana and a full graveyard with Bonus Round copied with Narset's Reversal (or mutated out a second time in a single turn) + Frantic Search. Under normal circumstances you will be usually be playing Darting Merfolk, mutating for value, declaring it as a blocker, then bouncing before combat damage to set up for next turn's mutate.

  • Skywing Aven - Aven is slightly more expensive up front than Darting Merfolk, but the lack of an activation cost (in mana) means you don't need as much available. The discard is a real cost, and an empty hand means a vulnerable bird. Normally, however, you'll be happy to pitch a juicy mutate trigger target.

  • Thalakos Scout - Skywing Aven #2. While it's not too likely, the shadow could count for something. If you don't HAVE to bounce a mutated Scout back to your hand before your turn, wait so that you can attack with it with impunity for some commander damage before bouncing and re-mutating during your post-combat main phase.

  • Sea-Dasher Octopus - You won't often find yourself looking to trigger the combat damage effect on this card, but it's worth running simply because it's a cheap instant speed way to get an additional Vadrok trigger.

  • Lore Drakkis - Another mutate creature worth running because of the cheap mutate cost that enables you to get another Vadrok cast trigger while also having a great trigger of its own. Note that you can use the stack to your advantage with Drakkis. For example, you mutate Lore Drakkis onto a creature already mutated with Vadrok: now stack the two mutate triggers such that Vadrok's resolves before Drakkis's and you can, for instance, cast Stitch in Time for free from the graveyard then return it from the graveyard to your hand after it resolves :cool:





Lands
Lands
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  • Coming soon!


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Deck Strategy


Coming Soon!
Early Game Strategy
Coming Soon!
Mid-Game Strategy
Coming Soon!
Late-Game
Coming Soon!


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Credit and Thanks


My thanks to many of the usual suspects, in no particular order:
@pokken and @darrenhabib for helping me sort out some ideas for Vadrok in a brainstorming thread as well as their usual high level of insight and feedback. It's always appreciated!
@tstorm823 for being a fellow Jeskai nut and showing me by example just how fun these durdle combo decks can be.
@DirkGently for his recent theorycrafting around mutate that had me poking around at a few different angles for this deck.


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Changelog

Last edited by MeowZeDung 3 years ago, edited 7 times in total.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

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MeowZeDung
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

So here's a primer that's a little over half done. I thought I'd go ahead and post a red, white, and blue list on the fourth of July and also get some feedback on this one before I finish off the card choice and deck strategy sections of the primer. It's a nutty one, and I'm interested to see what others think and what I have probably missed.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

If you're in the market for some Jeskai mutate combos, I thought of a few last night:

Dude who returns to hand + Lore Drakkis + extra turn spell

Dude who returns to hand + Frantic Search + vadrok with some lands that tap for extra Like Lotus Field (can supplement with additional mutates)

Similarly, Ornithopter + vadrok + Snap (need 5 mana from 2 lands though, unless you have an etb/cast trigger to exploit)

Also Brash Taunter seems like a must for your combos.
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

I feel like you have too many bounce creatures.
The thing is that its not like you have a lot of payoff cards to cast with Vadrok, Apex of Thunder in the first place outside of the combos.
These are your targets; Gamble, Frantic Search, Windfall, Collective Defiance, Generous Gift, Chaos Warp, Nahiri's Wrath, Sweltering Suns, Silence, Mizzium Skin, Lazotep Plating, Narset's Reversal, Arcbond, Azorius Charm, Boros Charm, Izzet Charm, Flawless Maneuver, Bonus Round, Deafening Clarion, Chance for Glory, Stitch in Time, Jeskai Charm.
So the sort of only non combo cards for value are Frantic Search, Windfall, Stitch in Time, Collective Defiance, Generous Gift, Chaos Warp, Jeskai Charm.
If you are spending Thalakos Scout + Vadrok, Apex of Thunder = 3{w/u}urr on casting an Izzet Charm (for example) to draw 2 and discard 3 (because you discard for the Thalakos Scout as well), then this is just simply too much to ask for even the slowest commander games.
Spending 7 mana a turn to cast say Generous Gift is fine, but still not super appealing. All I am saying is that its not even like you want to go into the continuous bounce plan.
I would cut the once off guys at least with Whitemane Lion, Deputy of Acquittals, Jeskai Barricade.
Technically Niambi, Esteemed Speaker is an upgrade to Deputy of Acquittals, but they are both Humans, meaning can't be the target of mutates.

The draw 7 cards like Wheel of Fortune, Wheel of Fate, Windfall could allow you to go indefinite with Smothering Tithe and the bounce creatures. In a 4 player game, you should be getting 21 treasures, which would be enough to cover replaying the bounce creature and Vadrok.
So you do have Windfall for this plan, but you could back this up with Wheel of Fate as its a $4 card.

Wow, those are some very mana intensive sequences to pull off!
If you are casting Arcbond then mutating Vadrok, Apex of Thunder to recast Arcbond, that's 3{w/u}rrr already and we haven't even cast our lifelink (Jeskai Charm for example) or indestructible yet (Boros Charm for example).
I feel like this deck is going to need help with mana for the combo turn most times.
Mana Geyser can consistently give you all the red and colorless portion of your costs.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance can pull double if not triple duty in the deck. The [-4] can be used to deal damage to your creature to start combo off, but also it has a mana portion, and also card advantage.

Lore Drakkis is the mutate creature you should have. It'll help with mana needs if you've already cast Vadrok then you can mutate for 2 mana to get the cast effect while also bringing back another spell.

Selfless Spirit is a great blanket indestructible enabler.

I know you've mentioned in your philosophy that you don't include many ways to tutor, but nobody is going to begrudge you using Sunforger as it does require work, but it is good in this deck for getting you access to a number of your combo cards; Arcbond, Flawless Maneuver, Chance for Glory, Jeskai Charm, Azorius Charm, Boros Charm, Izzet Charm.
Plus protection and disruption; Silence, Mandate of Peace, Generous Gift Chaos Warp.
The neat thing is that you can cast these cards for value and they get put into the graveyard for Vadrok to also have access to later on.

Abrade does three things, can start off your combo or get rid of a troublesome artifact or creature.

Wear // Tear is just a good card, can be cast by Vadrok and Sunforger.

I'll assume you are specifically not looking to use the Stuffy Doll or Brash Taunter with Guilty Conscience as they are 2 card combo?

Easy cuts in my eyes are Star of Extinction, Elixir of Immortality, Leave // Chance, Whitemane Lion, Deputy of Acquittals, Jeskai Barricade.

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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
If you're in the market for some Jeskai mutate combos, I thought of a few last night:

Dude who returns to hand + Lore Drakkis + extra turn spell

Dude who returns to hand + Frantic Search + vadrok with some lands that tap for extra Like Lotus Field (can supplement with additional mutates)

Similarly, Ornithopter + vadrok + Snap (need 5 mana from 2 lands though, unless you have an etb/cast trigger to exploit)

Also Brash Taunter seems like a must for your combos.
I was thinking about Chance for Glory and recasting it and then using a card like Sundial of the Infinite or Glorious End to not lose for infinite turns.
The idea is that you bounce Vadrok each turn to cast Chance for Glory. If you were going to use Glorious End then you'd need to recast Vadrok twice.
So ultimately you'd need some cost reducers to make this happen.
Say if you had Ruby Medallion then 2x Darting Merfolk + 2x Vadrok, Apex of Thunder + Chance for Glory + Glorious End would cost you 3uu{w/u}{w/u}rrrrrrw which is 13 mana. Yeah not very likely.
But Sundial of the Infinite would make this very feasible.

The problem with the Frantic Search plan is that specifically Skywing Aven and Thalakos Scout require discarding a card, so it would literally only be Darting Merfolk you could use this with to get any traction as you'll keep going down a card each time.
It would have to be supplemented with something like Teferi's Ageless Insight.
It is 3u{w/u}rr to keep recasting a bounce creature and Vadrok, which is 7 mana. I feel like it specifically needs to be Lotus Field/Lotus Vale + Thespian's Stage/Vesuva or bust.
Lotus Field/Lotus Vale + 2 bounce lands in Azorius Chancery, Boros Garrison, Izzet Boilerworks would be just enough.
These would be the combo lands you need for the Snap one as well.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Great feedback already. Thanks!
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
If you're in the market for some Jeskai mutate combos, I thought of a few last night:

Dude who returns to hand + Lore Drakkis + extra turn spell
I had pretty much forgotten about Lore Drakkis since I was so focused on Vadrok as my only mutate for so long. Unless I'm missing something, isn't it just better to do this with Vadrok? EX: have Darting Merfolk in play, cast Stitch in Time, mutate Vadrok onto the merfolk to cast Stitch a second time, bounce merfolk to repeat the process on the extra turn. With Drakkis it's: have Darting Merfolk in play, cast Stitch in Time, mutate Drakkis, recast Stitch, bounce critter for the extra turn. It's essentially an exchange of a 2 mana cheaper mutate, but then you have to pay for the 3 mana spell so it's actually 1 mana more with Drakkis. It could be a good backup for situations where some commander tax has stacked up. I suppose with both Drakkis and Vadrok it gets better: Merfolk in play, cast Stitch, mutate Vadrok to re-cast Stitch, mutate Drakkis to re-cast stitch and return it to hand by stacking triggers appropriately, bounce dude. Nice.
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Dude who returns to hand + Frantic Search + vadrok with some lands that tap for extra Like Lotus Field (can supplement with additional mutates)
I thought of running the Rav bounces for this reason. It's just that when they suck, they really suck. I need to invest in Ancient Tomb / Lotus Field eventually, so it may happen.
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Also Brash Taunter seems like a must for your combos.
I wanted it and Stuffy Doll so bad, but alas they go off with fewer than 4 cards because of the native indestructible.
darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
I feel like you have too many bounce creatures
Hmm... I was worried I'd have too few :lol:
darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
The thing is that its not like you have a lot of payoff cards to cast with Vadrok, Apex of Thunder in the first place outside of the combos.
These are your targets; Gamble, Frantic Search, Windfall, Collective Defiance, Generous Gift, Chaos Warp, Nahiri's Wrath, Sweltering Suns, Silence, Mizzium Skin, Lazotep Plating, Narset's Reversal, Arcbond, Azorius Charm, Boros Charm, Izzet Charm, Flawless Maneuver, Bonus Round, Deafening Clarion, Chance for Glory, Stitch in Time, Jeskai Charm.
So the sort of only non combo cards for value are Frantic Search, Windfall, Stitch in Time, Collective Defiance, Generous Gift, Chaos Warp, Jeskai Charm.
If you are spending Thalakos Scout + Vadrok, Apex of Thunder = [sym=uw] on casting an Izzet Charm (for example) to draw 2 and discard 3 (because you discard for the Thalakos Scout as well), then this is just simply too much to ask for even the slowest commander games.
Spending 7 mana a turn to cast say Generous Gift is fine, but still not super appealing. All I am saying is that its not even like you want to go into the continuous bounce plan.
Yep, here's the real struggle with the deck put very succinctly. It's why I mentioned in the primer that I often see this deck panning out with only a few mutates, and sometimes none until the combo turn for the small-ball pieces (like izzet charm) in the yard. I agree that the "continuous bounce plan" is not really a thing because of the insane mana costs unless I'm going off with Bonus Round and Frantic Search, in which case I'd be close enough to infinite to bounce/mutate until I win. It's going to be more like the "once a turn bounce plan", and even then only when it makes sense, and you're absolutely right that with the deck as is, it will rarely make sense. There will be those occasional "pay 7 for a Windfall while Rielle, the Everwise is in play" or "pay 7 for Stitch in Time after resolving Bonus Round" types of turns though.

Perhaps I need to look at some more additions in the "untap mana sources" camp, such as Turnabout (nvm, 4 cmc, can't cast off of mutate), Snap like @DirkGently suggested, or some additional copy spells? They would also go well with a Mana Geyser/Seething Song type of approach.
darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
I would cut the once off guys at least with Whitemane Lion, Deputy of Acquittals, Jeskai Barricade.
Technically Niambi, Esteemed Speaker is an upgrade to Deputy of Acquittals, but they are both Humans, meaning can't be the target of mutates.
Well balls. I forgot about the human thing with Deputy of Acquittals, and I don't think I want to go down the Stonecloaker or Quickling route. The idea here was to loop two of these cards together, keeping the mutate pile protected and always having a body available to mutate onto.
darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
The draw 7 cards like Wheel of Fortune, Wheel of Fate, Windfall could allow you to go indefinite with Smothering Tithe and the bounce creatures. In a 4 player game, you should be getting 21 treasures, which would be enough to cover replaying the bounce creature and Vadrok.
So you do have Windfall for this plan, but you could back this up with Wheel of Fate as its a $4 card.
Yep. Windfall + Smothering Tithe + Elixir of Immortality + mutate/bounce is a win con. I don't own a Wheel of Fate just yet, but it may need to happen to shore up some weaknesses here.
darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
Wow, those are some very mana intensive sequences to pull off!
If you are casting Arcbond then mutating Vadrok, Apex of Thunder to recast Arcbond, that's already and we haven't even cast our lifelink (Jeskai Charm for example) or indestructible yet (Boros Charm for example).
I feel like this deck is going to need help with mana for the combo turn most times.
Some of the sequences are a lot more expensive than others though. For instance these from the primer can be much more reasonable mana-wise:
MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Example #3:

Reflector Spitemare + Reflector #2 Guilty Conscience + Indestructibility Flawless Maneuver + Damage Izzet Charm.
MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Example #4:

Reflector Coalhauler Swine + Reflector #2 Pariah + Indestructibility Boros Charm + Damage Boros Charm again.
In both cases the cost can be offset by already having the creature in play the turn prior or using a free spell like Flawless Maneuver. I mean, there is also the fact that I'm not looking to make this a competitive list, so I'm ok with derpy 9-12 mana 4-card combos, and in a way that's kind of the point. However, I think you're absolutely right that the list as it currently sits needs some help with mana production. Even just Lore Drakkis and Pollywog Symbiote in two of the flash/bounce creatures' spots could help a lot.
darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
Mana Geyser can consistently give you all the red and colorless portion of your costs.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance can pull double if not triple duty in the deck. The [-4] can be used to deal damage to your creature to start combo off, but also it has a mana portion, and also card advantage.
Good recs. I had written off Geyser because it's all red, but 3 of the 4 mana in vadrok's mutate can be paid with , so I think it's worth serious consideration, especially with Narset's Reversal and Bonus Round in the deck.

Chandra is an interesting option because of the flexibility, but you could even make an argument for Chandra, Flamecaller instead for the discard and potentially stronger draw and the damage. The elemental mode is poo here though.
darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
Lore Drakkis is the mutate creature you should have. It'll help with mana needs if you've already cast Vadrok then you can mutate for 2 mana to get the cast effect while also bringing back another spell.
Yeah, see above. I kind of forgot about this little critter while deckbuilding because I was so focused on mutating with only Vadrok. Cutting a mutate trigger cost in half is too big of a game to pass up for this list.
darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
I know you've mentioned in your philosophy that you don't include many ways to tutor, but nobody is going to begrudge you using Sunforger as it does require work, but it is good in this deck for getting you access to a number of your combo cards; Arcbond, Flawless Maneuver, Chance for Glory, Jeskai Charm, Azorius Charm, Boros Charm, Izzet Charm.
Plus protection and disruption; Silence, Mandate of Peace, Generous Gift Chaos Warp.
The neat thing is that you can cast these cards for value and they get put into the graveyard for Vadrok to also have access to later on.
I'm more than a little embarrassed that I didn't think of Sunforger since I love it in Kykar so much. I suppose I mentally blocked it out since I was looking to avoid blowouts on mutates so much that adding equip costs to the mix just seemed patently insane. It could be worth it in this case though. I'm not sure. The density of combo pieces in the deck is pretty high, and I think it will fill the yard with enough consistency that an additional tutor piece may not be necessary in most games. That said, the main appeal of Vadrok to me was the consistency of access to combo pieces, and Sunforger fills a similar role.
darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
I'll assume you are specifically not looking to use the Stuffy Doll or Brash Taunter with Guilty Conscience as they are 2 card combo?
Bingo. 3-cards technically: Doll/Taunter + Conscience + a damage spell (or a cooperative/foolish opponent I suppose) NVM, brain fart, I forgot they can damage themselves once they can tap. I thought about Stuffy because it's limited to a single player kill, but it still felt like too much of a violation of the 4-card-combo restriction, and I didn't want to lose Guilty Conscience.
darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
Easy cuts in my eyes are Star of Extinction, Elixir of Immortality, Leave // Chance, Whitemane Lion, Deputy of Acquittals, Jeskai Barricade.
I think I'm with you now on the flash/bounce creatures, mostly because losing Deputy b/c of the human/mutate conflict makes the already low density of these creatures way too low to reasonably expect to loop them together for continuous mutates. The others I don't know about though. . .

Star of Extinction is one of the better high level synergies with my damage reflectors and lifelink/indestructible pieces. It's pricey, sure, but if it hits two spite creatures a la Spitemare it results in a dead opponent. Hitting a lifelinking Coalhauler Swine with it is pretty spicy, and Swans of Bryn Argoll wouldn't mind catching a sweet meteor of death either. I could be convinced I suppose, but I think every commander deck other than the most degenerate cEDH combo masterpieces should have a few ridiculous battle-cruiser magic haymakers to throw.

Elixir of Immortality allows me to win the game with Windfall + Smothering Tithe + mutate/bounce by milling everyone except for myself.

Leave // Chance is both a way to bounce a mutate pile and recycle my hand while filling the yard for a future combo. That's a hard cut to make and I'm curious why you would make it.

Well, back to the drawing board on several points. Easy first cuts are the flash/bounce creatures, and easy includes are Lore Drakkis, Increasing Vengeance maybe???, Mana Geyser, and probably Pollywog Symbiote.
Last edited by MeowZeDung 3 years ago, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
The problem with the Frantic Search plan is that specifically Skywing Aven and Thalakos Scout require discarding a card, so it would literally only be Darting Merfolk you could use this with to get any traction as you'll keep going down a card each time.
But if I'm netting mana each go around and discarding cards, eventually I would just pause my Frantic Searching to fire off a Windfall or Vanish into Memory. I haven't done the math on Dirk's Snap example, but my thoughts were to cast Bonus Round twice in a single turn before starting my Frantic Searching and mutating. That way I get 4 resolutions of Frantic search before even having to bounce the mutate stack for the first time. Assuming I can find a draw spell before I run out of cards to discard to my bounce creature, I would get 4 resolutions of it as well.

This does make me think, Bonders' Enclave or Arch of Orazca might be worth considering just for this situation.
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Great feedback already. Thanks!
Bingo. 3-cards technically: Doll/Taunter + Conscience + a damage spell (or a cooperative/foolish opponent I suppose). I thought about Stuffy because it's limited to a single player kill, but it still felt like too much of a violation of the 4-card-combo restriction, and I didn't want to lose Guilty Conscience.
Both of them have activated abilities that deal damage to themselves.
Elixir of Immortality allows me to win the game with Windfall + Smothering Tithe + mutate/bounce by milling everyone except for myself.
I mean you are going to draw into literally all of your combos anyway, so you don't need Elixir of Immortality at all which should never use at any other stage of the game as you want your graveyard.
Leave // Chance is both a way to bounce a mutate pile and recycle my hand while filling the yard for a future combo. That's a hard cut to make and I'm curious why you would make it.
Runs into the issue that once-off bounce isn't actually that good and spending 4 mana for discard to draw as I've found through experience isn't good at all. I've played a lot of decks that played cards like Heartwarming Redemption and they are just too costly to try and reshape your hand.
Spending a card to Cyclonic Rift yourself is fairly marginal imo. This is where I just feel a Counterspell serves you better if you're reacting to a sweeper, rather than returning your cards back to hand.
Well, back to the drawing board on several points. Easy first cuts are the flash/bounce creatures, and easy includes are Lore Drakkis, Increasing Vengeance maybe???, Mana Geyser, and probably Pollywog Symbiote.
Pollywog Symbiote is very limited in help.
Sapphire Medallion is a better option, but is a $17 card. Kefnet's Monument is more budget friendly.

Oh yeah Whirlwind of Thought is another Jeskai card hard to pass up on.

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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
The problem with the Frantic Search plan is that specifically Skywing Aven and Thalakos Scout require discarding a card, so it would literally only be Darting Merfolk you could use this with to get any traction as you'll keep going down a card each time.
But if I'm netting mana each go around and discarding cards, eventually I would just pause my Frantic Searching to fire off a Windfall or Vanish into Memory. I haven't done the math on Dirk's Snap example, but my thoughts were to cast Bonus Round twice in a single turn before starting my Frantic Searching and mutating. That way I get 4 resolutions of Frantic search before even having to bounce the mutate stack for the first time. Assuming I can find a draw spell before I run out of cards to discard to my bounce creature, I would get 4 resolutions of it as well.

This does make me think, Bonders' Enclave or Arch of Orazca might be worth considering just for this situation.
That's true. You can end up with no cards in hand and just keep cycling through your deck until you discard Windfall to cast that instead to refill.

You won't need card draw to help with that now that you've pointed it out, so Bonders' Enclave and Arch of Orazca are not necesary.
You do obviously need Lotus Field/Lotus Vale + Thespian's Stage/Vesuva at least in order to make this work.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

@MeowZeDung i was mostly thinking of it as a way to use full extra turn spells with cmc > 3 since drakkis has no restriction. Fair enough if that's too spikey ofc. Drakkis is also very efficient regardless though, even if you're mostly retriggering vadrok, 2 cost can't be beat. Sea-Dasher Octopus might also merit consideration.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

I've been meaning to reply, thanks for the shoutout! I think others have gotten to my main suggestions first (Whirlwind of Thought is a house, and Lore Drakkis is surely worth running).

Your list is really thin on Mutate creatures. Even in the event of using a bounce creature so you can 'reuse' mutates, your current list (well, without Lore Drakkis) will get one mutate per bounce. The rate on a creature that bounces itself is around 3-4 CMC (Blinking Spirit|IA, Lantern Spirit, Brightling, Darting Merfolk etc.). So, you're looking at 7-8 mana for a single cast from the yard. I think you might want to consider some other Mutates (I mean, other than Lore Drakkis). Sea-Dasher Octopus is aggressively costed, has Flash (for an instant speed Vadrok trigger), and probably worth running.

Second, I would consider running fewer cards that discard your whole hand and draw. Since you'll probably have few mutates going forward, you won't be able to cast and recast cards from your graveyard as much as you'd like. Further, you can't play Leave // Chance using Vadrok's trigger (I'm not sure if you intend to, but it has 6 CMC). It might be playable on its own, though. However, I would like to say I've had some good results with Faithless Looting and Izzet Charm. I'm also testing out Dack Fayden who scoots under Vadrok's limit and provides pretty decent utility in terms of artifact theft (I wouldn't count on his ult, but you could steal a lot of creatures with Nahiri's Wrath in your list).

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
Both of them have activated abilities that deal damage to themselves.
Caught this shortly after I posted. It was late alright :crazy:
darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
I mean you are going to draw into literally all of your combos anyway, so you don't need Elixir of Immortality at all which should never use at any other stage of the game as you want your graveyard
Solid point. I wanted the deck to have a plan B with the mill out, but it may just not be necessary.
darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
Pollywog Symbiote is very limited in help.
Sapphire Medallion is a better option, but is a $17 card. Kefnet's Monument is more budget friendly.

Oh yeah Whirlwind of Thought is another Jeskai card hard to pass up on.
I had forgotten about Kefnet's Monument. Hazoret's Monument might just be better here actually. Although, with Kefnet's Monument there might be something there with Monument + Cloud of Faeries + Vadrok + Snap. I suppose to make it work with just the Rav bounces you would need Sapphire Medallion though.

Whirlwind of Thought is my jam. I didn't include it because I didn't imagine this deck being very storm like in nature, but now that I see some of the possibilities with Frantic Search and Windfall, I'm in!
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
@MeowZeDung i was mostly thinking of it as a way to use full extra turn spells with cmc > 3 since drakkis has no restriction. Fair enough if that's too spikey ofc. Drakkis is also very efficient regardless though, even if you're mostly retriggering vadrok, 2 cost can't be beat. Sea-Dasher Octopus might also merit consideration.
Yeah, drakkis can get there with less than 4 cards and a "grown up" extra turn spell. It's still going in for the cheap mutates and the less spikey Stitch in Time. Octopus probably too; I think the flash and low mutate cost alone make it worthwhile.
Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
Your list is really thin on Mutate creatures. Even in the event of using a bounce creature so you can 'reuse' mutates, your current list (well, without Lore Drakkis) will get one mutate per bounce. The rate on a creature that bounces itself is around 3-4 CMC (Blinking Spirit, Lantern Spirit, Brightling, Darting Merfolk etc.). So, you're looking at 7-8 mana for a single cast from the yard. I think you might want to consider some other Mutates (I mean, other than Lore Drakkis). Sea-Dasher Octopus is aggressively costed, has Flash (for an instant speed Vadrok trigger), and probably worth running.
Yeah, I definitely over-committed to the "Vadrok is my only mutate card" notion. I think Octopus and Drakkis will reduce costs and increase mutate rates significantly enough by themselves, and I don't think it's worth it to include the likes of Pouncing Shoreshark or Souvenir Snatcher since they cost so much.
Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
you can't play Leave // Chance using Vadrok's trigger (I'm not sure if you intend to, but it has 6 CMC). It might be playable on its own, though.
Fudge. I forgot that the Leave // Chance would count as 6 instead of 2.

Well, here's what I'm going to go with for now:




Thanks for the great feedback so far y'all.
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Post by SirGregarious » 3 years ago

Hi. The angle of Boros Reckoner combo for this commander is beyond sweet. I'm gonna throw together a variant of this list and take it for a spin.

Dockside Extortionist + Lore Drakkis or Vadrok, Apex of Thunder + Snap (or any other bounce spell) will generate you infinite mana if there are enough artifacts/enchantments on board. I'm not sure if you're opposed to it, but it is a three card combo with a condition. There's a couple of bounce spells with "draw a card" stapled to them as well that would draw your deck this way. Or if you assemble Lore Drakkis and Vadrok together there a million ways to use two instants to draw your deck.

Brightling is another self-bouncing creature that you might have overlooked. It takes an additional mana but doesn't require a discard.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

SirGregarious wrote:
3 years ago
Hi. The angle of Boros Reckoner combo for this commander is beyond sweet. I'm gonna throw together a variant of this list and take it for a spin.

Dockside Extortionist + Lore Drakkis or Vadrok, Apex of Thunder + Snap (or any other bounce spell) will generate you infinite mana if there are enough artifacts/enchantments on board. I'm not sure if you're opposed to it, but it is a three card combo with a condition. There's a couple of bounce spells with "draw a card" stapled to them as well that would draw your deck this way. Or if you assemble Lore Drakkis and Vadrok together there a million ways to use two instants to draw your deck.

Brightling is another self-bouncing creature that you might have overlooked. It takes an additional mana but doesn't require a discard.
Glad you dig it!

I don't own a Dockside Extortionist and don't have any plans to pick one up without a big price drop. I'm not necessarily opposed to a 3-card-combo if all it does is generate infinite mana because, by definition, you'll need at least one other card to funnel all that mana into for a win. I'd likely run it if I had an extortionist.

I didn't include Brightling because, as has been discussed a lot so far, the re-mutate process is flipping expensive. Basically, I went with only the cheapest self bounce options, and triple is tough. I'd probably run Blinking Spirit over Brightling.
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Post by SirGregarious » 3 years ago

Another thought I had; If you like Jeskai Ascendancy storm turns, you can run the Dork Myrs (Gold, Iron, Silver, Alloy, Palladium, Plague) and some man-lands. This might help out with your re-mutate mana issue as well as give you some additional ramp and mutate targets.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

SirGregarious wrote:
3 years ago
Another thought I had; If you like Jeskai Ascendancy storm turns, you can run the Dork Myrs (Gold, Iron, Silver, Alloy, Palladium, Plague) and some man-lands. This might help out with your re-mutate mana issue as well as give you some additional ramp and mutate targets.
Hmmm, good point. I'm already running the manlands for emergency mutates/blocks. I'm not sure I want to find room for all the myr though.

Bonus Round + Frantic Search + Bouncelands PLUS Iron Myr + Rakka Mar + Jeskai Ascendancy is a thing, but that's a REALLY convoluted combo that doesn't justify including Rakka Mar by itself.

I'll rethink this more when I have some time (read: when I'm bored at work tomorrow) and look at where I might consider adding in the dorks. It certainly would be a nifty way of solving the deck's mana issues.

I'd also want to add in Turnabout to combo with Bonus Round and Narset's Reversal, which would tempt me to add Kykar, Wind's Fury since I'm going down a stormier path. Once I do that, what's to stop me from adding more manlands, Intruder Alarm, Opposition, Aetherflux Reservoir, etc. and just making it a Kykar tap/untap deck?

TL;DR the tension here is how far do I go down the storm/mana path before the deck loses its identity as a derpy mutate combo deck and just becomes a storm deck.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Well, why not? By replacing the signets and dual talismans with the 5 Myr dorks and Turnabout I open myself up to sweepers a bit, but the opportunities for big mana turns with Jeskai Ascendancy, manlands, Frantic Search, Bonus Round + Narset's Reversal + turnabout, etc seem ideal for bouncing, mutating, and durdling my way to a combo finish.

There's also the corner case of sneaking an infect win in with plague myr, perhaps with Mirrorweave's assistance?

Thanks for the idea @SirGregarious


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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Yeah, I definitely over-committed to the "Vadrok is my only mutate card" notion. I think Octopus and Drakkis will reduce costs and increase mutate rates significantly enough by themselves, and I don't think it's worth it to include the likes of Pouncing Shoreshark or Souvenir Snatcher since they cost so much.
Yeah, I think even I don't run Souvenir Snatcher.

The only other Mutate I'd even consider for this deck is Cloudpiercer; the loot is something this deck probably wants to do, but it probably isn't efficient enough to do it.

Mutate is a weird mechanic; the more mutates you have, the more any individual mutate is worthwhile, but on the whole, the cards themselves are almost universally atrociously bad.

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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

Another avenue opened up by mutate cards is clone effects. Say you had Vadrok, Apex of Thunder underneath a Darting Merfolk, you could clone it with something like Cackling Counterpart and keep both because it isn't legendary. Bounce the original, then mutate onto the clone which now has two copies of Vadrok's mutate trigger, one of which could cast Cackling Counterpart again, so you could bounce the original and mutate a third time, so on and so forth, just like pop an extra Vadrok head out of that poor merfolk's back each time.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Solid mad science right there @tstorm823. I guess I need to find room for Cackling Counterpart and Quasiduplicate. It gets even nuttier if I mutate vadrok AND drakkis on each new copy.

Edit: Fated Infatuation is another I found. No others at 3cmc or less that don't also exile at end step.
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Solid mad science right there @tstorm823. I guess I need to find room for Cackling Counterpart and Quasiduplicate. It gets even nuttier if I mutate vadrok AND drakkis on each new copy.

Edit: Fated Infatuation is another I found. No others at 3cmc or less that don't also exile at end step.
I did a bunch of thought experiments on the premise that something like Lore Drakkis makes a creature nonlegendary. Adds a bunch of cards to the list of things that easy combo with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. Thought about it in Zedruu and ultimately couldn't justify a mutate there, but it's a wacky mechanic.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Yeah, adding kiki/twin is a bridge too far. Cool idea though.
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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

The fact that the phrase "indestructible baconator" was used, and in context, is a total win. Mad props to you for this.

Have you considered the loop with Lore Drakkis/Vadrok, Apex of Thunder + Dockside Extortionist + Blink of an Eye/Into the Roil? It requires a ridiculous setup but could theoretically create infinite mana via Treasures and/or draw your deck if your opponents have enough Artifacts/Enchantments.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Ph3ar teh baconator!

Extortionist can probably loop a number of ways, but would also likely win with less than 4 cards. Plus I don't own one :P Thanks for the suggestion though. I love thinking about magic (too much).
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
I love thinking about magic (too much).
I was thinking about this. Have you considered Grinning Ignus? If you want to play a bounce game, it bounces itself at sorcery speed, but, it refunds itself very heavily.

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