Chainer — In the Darkness of Dreams

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

Experimental Changes


So these are the experimental changes I'm dealing with for now (not updating the OP yet until after further iterations) to see how some of them fare. The following notes are sprinkled with incidents from a game yesterday (yay, finally! :grin: ) in which I got to at least use a few of these and get some initial impressions.

It was a different sort of game, though: 1v1 casual, and I didn't self-mill so Chainer didn't come out until after my opponent wiped my board to by themselves time and I really only activated him once - it was simply the quickest way to recover and finish my opponent.

Some of the cards I've removed for now (or on previous changes) may find their way back in, such as Pitiless Plunderer. We'll see how I like piloting this deck without tutors, but Mindslicer will almost certainly find a slot again after having used Myojin a couple times since the last changes.

Vilis is busted and glorious, and flying is pretty useful. I was able to get him on the field just in time to save me from getting killed (9 life left) by an 8/8 double-strike flier. Sheoldred brought him back next turn and Kagemaro finished my opponent's board with -3/-3. This was followed by my opponent's wipe of my side and when I finally cast Chainer.

Geth, Lord of the Vault is in for testing as a mana sink. I had Coffers, Urborg, and Crypt of Agadeem at the end with a number of swamps and black critters in my 'yard due to the wipe, so along with Crypt Ghast and Nirkana Revenant there's potential for a lot of mana to throw around. Speaking of the latter, I was thinking of adding Gilded Lotus instead, but Revenant is going to be much easier to recur if milled. It's is also a mana sink that interacts with some cards where power or toughness matter.

Reanimate and Animate Dead are in as backups to Chainer either early-game or in a pinch. In this game, if I had one of them I might not have cast Chainer at all, but I had plenty of mana to do so. Mindcrank was able to do a decent amount of milling and expose some possible reanimation targets on my opponent's side, though the win was through combat damage.

Deathrender I was able to use a wee bit in this game, though it was ham-fisted just to experience its mechanic. I have a feeling it's going to feel win-more, that I already have to be doing well on recursion and draw for it to help. Lightning Greaves is just good old protection from spot removal and haste.

No usage of Soldevi Adnate or Ugin, the Ineffable yet. I liked that Ugin can make sacrifice fodder that then "draws" cards, but I do already have doubts because if I mill him I have no way to get the card back and some spot removal like Meteor Golem might be better. Also less useful if I don't have a sacrifice outlet available.

K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth is a lightning rod for spot removal. Some of my initial life loss was due to his ability, but I did get some value before he was exiled.

The Haunt of Hightower I have some hopes for though, as there's a nice interaction between him, Chainer, and Altar of Dementia, and the focus on mill in this list should ensure he always gets pretty big.

I also used Head Games, and despite it being a pet card and capable of drastically swinging the course of a game, I was quite self-conscious of how long it took just to pick 3 cards for my opponent's new hand. Perhaps I could get faster at making those card decisions, but I do have to weigh its power against how long it takes to resolve.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

Tags:

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

Yeah, Deathrender looks like it's going to be on the winmore side here. Soldevi Adnate will be great though. Given the 1v1, what was the reasoning stopping you from just giving them three lands with Head Games?

I'm still not fully sold on K'rrik outside of ruthless "win this turn" combo lines that he helms well, what's your logic behind running him? Don't forget it takes 14 life of mana investment to break even on the mana it takes to chase him out.
 
EDH Primers (click me!)
Deck is Kill Club
Show
Hide

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
4 years ago
Yeah, Deathrender looks like it's going to be on the winmore side here. Soldevi Adnate will be great though. Given the 1v1, what was the reasoning stopping you from just giving them three lands with Head Games?
He's an old friend and a very casual player. Sometimes I do stuff just to mess with him, or learn more about how he'll respond to certain things, or half-fabricate a teaching moment on tactics. I gave him a couple nonbasics that weren't ideal and Sacred Mesa as a mana sink, though this was before he drew Hope Against Hope or even Elspeth, Sun's Champion. It did end up wasting his mana sometimes because he had to sacrifice to Mesa and to Sheoldred, whom I already had in-hand.
Rumpy5897 wrote:
4 years ago
I'm still not fully sold on K'rrik outside of ruthless "win this turn" combo lines that he helms well, what's your logic behind running him? Don't forget it takes 14 life of mana investment to break even on the mana it takes to chase him out.
I did cast him for 4 mana and 6 life, though it was before I had Vilis out and didn't draw cards. I'm pretty sure I used him to cast Sheoldred when I only had 5 mana before he got removed. What exiled him was Banisher Priest, so I eventually got him back but I didn't use him for anything after that that I recall.

Rather than just a combo piece, even though that possibility is present in the list, I'm viewing him as a different sort of ramp piece and testing him in that role. It was already a suicide black list, but I've got a bit more lifegain covered than before and want to see how much of a liability that further life loss is versus the benefit of his ramp. It forces me to make interesting decisions and take risks, probably, but being able to run out Vilis, Sheoldred, Overlord, or Chainer two or more turns early sounds spicy.

Side Note: I'm hoping I have enough lifelink to sufficiently provide enough bursts of lifegain, but Crypt Incursion, Torgaar, Famine Incarnate, and - hesitantly - Kokusho, the Evening Star are on my mind in that role as well.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

Since I'm pretty sure Deathrender is going to get cut anyway, I'm going to go ahead and do so. I should be able to get in some multiplayer EDH action this weekend so now is a good time to do that. Just trying to decide between Eldrazi Monument, Damnation, or a burst draw card. Might even try Arguel's Blood Fast in place of Phyrexian Arena - maybe also Profane Memento in place of something like Deathgreeter.

I ordered new cards: Ophiomancer and (finally) Kokusho, the Evening Star. Generally I don't want to be able to win by life drain too easily to make combat/milling the primary goals. I want to test Urborg Syphon-Mage in that regard since it'd be not easy to loop, but in some metas having a more feasible option for this third wincon is probably warranted - and I don't know much about the meta I'm stepping into Saturday. Also I think having one option for it becomes much more permissible when there are no tutors.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
TheGildedGoose
HONK HONK
Posts: 1473
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: any/all
Contact:

Post by TheGildedGoose » 4 years ago

Have you reconsidered cutting Dark Deal? I was thinking of it earlier for some reason and realized it would've been great in Chainer, and, well, here we are. While it's technically more card disadvantage for you, it gets stuff into graveyards with which to take advantage of with Chainer and disrupts your opponents' sculpted hands. In addition, since you're playing mostly tutorless, it digs you deeper into your deck to potentially find answers. I like that it performs multiple roles in your deck and don't think it can be compared directly with, say, Mindslicer.

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

Yeah, I should reconsider Dark Deal and put it back in the pile. Probably way more useful in a meta where players have good card draw. My usual group of friends are a bit light on being able to refill their hand in a number of their decks, so Dark Deal was not great before.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
TheGildedGoose
HONK HONK
Posts: 1473
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: any/all
Contact:

Post by TheGildedGoose » 4 years ago

New metas are always nerve-wracking. I recently moved to The Big City from Small Rural Hellhole and let me tell you, playing against more competent players with better decks has been a wonderful challenge. They still don't really recognize that the person using their life total as a resource is the right person to attack, but hey, maybe they're just being polite. Let us know how the deck performs outside of your local meta.

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

That evaluation has always amused me. Like, are they thinking, "they're doing a good job of killing themselves and I don't need to help"? Because that's definitely not what we're doing. :laugh:

I think there are certain deck archetypes that are good at teaching specific lessons/perspectives about playing magic and that everybody should pilot each for at least a while - and one of them is suicide mono-black.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

Got in 1.3 games this weekend and have a couple observations (first game interrupted, we restarted later). This was against a couple precons (Estrid and Windgrace), and there was actually some back-and-forth, so that was nice.
  • Mesmeric Orb is awesome and gets people worried when it comes down turn 2, which happened in the first partial game (meanwhile I'm making sure all my lands are tapped just before my turn). I may actually need a second graveyard removal piece like Withered Wretch or Nezumi Graverobber with all this mill.
  • Didn't cast Chainer at all, though. I had to take two turns to blast away some enchantments making an Aura Gnarlid huge. Ended up using a Crash of Rhino Beetles stolen via Gonti to beat much face after Mutilating for -10/-10. At one point I even hard-cast Noxious Gearhulk to take out one of two blockers to gain a bit of life and make sure NG got through unblocked due to menace. That was the final lethal attack along with the stolen Beetles. Solid battlecruiser feel to that game.
  • Gonti has been good every time I've used him so far. I don't think I've ever looked at the top 4 and not had a pick that was a useful choice to either use myself or keep from the opponent.
  • Ugin, the Ineffable got to see some usage, too. I got to cast 2-3 artifacts for cheap or free. Sacking the tokens worked well with Smothering Abomination since it was sortof "draw 2". Also when you have multiple tokens it's fun because you don't know what card you'll get since it's exiled face down and you can't look at it. He still might be a bit of a poor fit for the deck, but Eldrazi Monument might help make the tokens (and stolen smashy-smash critters) more useful. Testing shall continue.
Definitely trying to play more often now. I now it's only two games and that does not form a trend, but it got me thinking that if there are too many games of not needing to cast Chainer then I may need to figure out how that happened and how to rebalance to make him more necessary. But I'm having fun testing this iteration so far.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
TheGildedGoose
HONK HONK
Posts: 1473
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: any/all
Contact:

Post by TheGildedGoose » 4 years ago

So, I've been strongly considering rebuilding Chainer as of late. I feel as though I've "solved" Erebos and the slow, stax-y MBC archetype, so I've been looking to explore other mono-black commanders. I flirted with Aristocrat combo-style decks involving Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder or Yawgmoth, Thran Physician, but the winning turns in those decks tend to be storm-like and I feel bad making opponents watch me play Magic by myself for extended periods. With all the shiny new toys Chainer has gotten in the past year or so that weren't a great fit for Erebos I've been craving the raw power of Chainer's activated ability.

I'm pretty basic, though, so my list is a more conventional approach to Chainer, ie, tutors and loops.

Chainer's Torment

Enchantments: 3

Approximate Total Cost:

Obviously it's a rough draft but I feel like it's pretty close to where I want to be. Not sure if this is helpful to you, and I'm not trying to hijack your thread, but I feel like this is the best place for it.

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

GloriousGoose wrote:
4 years ago
So, I've been strongly considering rebuilding Chainer as of late. I feel as though I've "solved" Erebos and the slow, stax-y MBC archetype, so I've been looking to explore other mono-black commanders. I flirted with Aristocrat combo-style decks involving Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder or Yawgmoth, Thran Physician, but the winning turns in those decks tend to be storm-like and I feel bad making opponents watch me play Magic by myself for extended periods. With all the shiny new toys Chainer has gotten in the past year or so that weren't a great fit for Erebos I've been craving the raw power of Chainer's activated ability.

I'm pretty basic, though, so my list is a more conventional approach to Chainer, ie, tutors and loops.

<snip>

Obviously it's a rough draft but I feel like it's pretty close to where I want to be. Not sure if this is helpful to you, and I'm not trying to hijack your thread, but I feel like this is the best place for it.
Definitely a good classic Chainer build with Gary and Koko and lots of removal. I don't know how helpful it is to me, either, other than reminding me how good Yawgmoth would be (but I plan to put him in Marchesa), how good those draw spells are, that I'll need to remember to review if I'm too creature-heavy, that combos aren't really necessary for repeating Gary/Koko (though you have a couple ways to make a self-sustaining loop), that it's okay if I don't have low-cmc creatures to play on curve if I'm planning to wip early instead, and so on? ;)

That list does give me a couple ideas and reinforces some of the thoughts I've had about where I'd be going with my list in the near future.* It's also nice to see stuff like Moonlight Bargain in the list and Infernal Darkness instead of Contamination. Glacial Chasm is interesting, as that's at least 2-3 trips around the table of not taking damage and building up. You have no recursion other than Chainer and Yawgmoth's Will, but I also don't feel like it will be a problem for you since you have so many ways to buy time.

And you're definitely not hijacking, though. It'll be nice to have an example of classic Chainer building around for comparison and contrast.

*I've been pondering for a while reducing the number of pieces meant for combo, Rings being one of the main enablers, but also Deathgreeter and some others. Not removing potential for combo entirely, but it's just not necessary for taking the game. One of the things I'd been somewhat ignoring is that pretty often opponent's boards will get wrecked and not recover as quickly as we do, just by the very ability to repeat Chainer's ability or repeat anything with huge impact like Living Death / Thrilling Encore. I also just realized an interaction between Chainer, Kagemaro, and Faceless Butcher that's a lock.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

Moar Experimental Changes


Another round of experimental and unexperimental stuff, to throw it at the wall and see what sticks.

While Font of Agonies would trigger nicely off paying life, I figured I would want more immediate satisfaction from my removal. So eventually that spot might be removal but this and Phyrexian Arena are giving way to some card draw testing with Night's Whisper and Read the Bones. Necropotence is giving it's spot to Necrologia for now, and because I don't need Infernal Tribute as an escape hatch for that we stitch that to Attrition so I can blow things up.

I'm also cutting down on combo because I'm looking for more of a battlecruiser approach. In that vein, bursts of lifegain are probably going to be better than death-trigger-trickles like Deathgreeter, so I'm going to see how I like Nether Traitor with the sacrifice outlets and Sword of Rampant Growth. Sifter of Skulls is being eyed, too, for possibly Ophiomancer.

Rings of Brighthearth was also rather a combo enabler with Deserted Temple plus the mana-ritual lands, as well as XHD, but also enabled some shenanigans throughout the rest of the deck. There were a lot of cards it somewhat assisted (including a good number of the sacrifice outlets) for 2, but mostly it didn't do anything I couldn't already do by sacking another token or something. There was only a handful that it really helped along. So the "Pay 1 life" fetches and Myriad Landscape also gave way to Swamps since none of them could really ramp anymore without Rings. The planeswalkers also went, as I'd usually rather fetch up Coffers or Urborg with Expedition Map than get just swamps with Liliana, and Ugin was cute but I definitely want my sac fodder, card draw, and removal to be faster and I already increased the first two so Meteor Golem it is. Rings is replaced by Walking Atlas to see if it's at all good as ramp.

Finally, with less focus on achieving a combo that mills everybody out, there are better discard outlets than Geier Reach Sanitarium so I brought Petrified Field back.

Got to play with my regular group for the first time in a long while yesterday. First a half-game 1v1 before dinner. I ended up with Sword of Rampant Growth attached to Walking Atlas and at least 3 turns where I attacked with it... and it was let through. I'm going to have to teach my friends that this Sword is a threat. :?

People just stop attacking you once Vilis is out and they don't have removal, plus I got to draw cards off of Dross Harvester's end-of-turn trigger. Harvester might go the way of Deathgreeter, too, but at least it's a better burst of lifegain as collateral in a wipe and has that interaction with Vilis... and is a Horror.

The actual game after dinner ended up being an interesting good old combat-and-control grind. Most of what I had to work with that game was Bloodghast being sacrificed every turn to Smothering Abomination and also triggering Grim Haruspex, Chainer to keep bringing back an opponent's Great Oak Guardian, and Lightning Greaves to make sure I could attack with it. I'd put Wurmcoil Engine on the battlefield at one point, but that got Reality Shifted to manifest my Mind Slash. Sifter of Skulls was also making some tokens and drawing extra cards.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

Well that was interesting. This weekend I did some testing with Cockatrice and aside from some goldfishing I ended up doing a local 2-player test of Chainer vs Chainer. For readability I'll refer to Player 1 as Alice and Player 2 as Bob.

Alice ended up getting Geth, Lightning Greaves, Oppression, Altar of Dementia and slightly earlier big mana with Coffers. Bob had a bit of card draw with Grim Haruspex and Bloodghast, its own sacrifice outlet with Disciple of Griselbrand, but didn't get into any mill pieces... but Bob did cast Chainer. Alice's Oppression definitely did some work on Bob's hand and made some tough decisions - even Alice sacking Sadistic Hypnotist to itself was handy. Near the end they had similar mana available.

Up until the point that Bob got Chainer on the board, Alice was gaining, recurring Meteor Golem for control and at one point stealing and holding Bloodghast. There was even a point where Bob cast Agent of Erebos to nuke their own graveyard to remove an option from Alice. Later on Alice tried to re-use Agent to nuke that graveyard after Bob had Chainer on the board, but Bob responded with Chainer targeting the Agent themselves (targeting Alice's graveyard of 2-3 cards). As soon as Bob had Chainer, Geth was too slow and it was over. Any creature Alice targeted with Geth, Bob would respond with Chainer and take first, then Bob could do other stuff in Alice's end step because Alice had blown more mana on Geth and Bob still had 1-2 other activations available for Chainer.

This Geth vs Chainer is kindof how I thought Geth would turn out. If Alice had cast Chainer earlier it could have gone the other way or become a race on mana and life. I'm probably going to cut Geth as a mana sink because of that overlap with Chainer - it might be better to make sure my lifegain is sufficient to fuel Chainer as my recursion mana sink and that I have some adequate protection for him. A similar thing might happen with Drana, too.

Edit: I'm also pretty sure I didn't test Geier Reach Sanitarium enough, so Swamp → that, I think.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

Just another update from testing. Since I don't get real games often, playing against myself using Cockatrice has still been revealing since I get more iterations/exposure of mechanics and interactions between cards. I find stuff that's just always awkward, stuff that I hadn't seen before that works really well, and lots of "well I kinda wish ___ were ___ because this would be easier". Also swapping things and putting myself in positions to test specific things is easier.

So, recent lessons I've learned this week:
  • Chainer vs Chainer is itself a weird matchup that becomes a race to mill in early turns and get Chainer on the board with mana to activate (unless you think he'll live to the next turn). For the same reason Chainer could out-do Geth by being responsive, the same thing is true with Chainer vs Chainer: whoever gets him out first with the resources to activate can one-up the other by responding and targeting the same card and the gap widens if there's a spot removal card to reanimate.
  • I'm a bit low on free instant-speed repeatable sacrifice outlets, and none of them are creatures. The only repeatable instant-speed one on a creature is Disciple of Griselbrand.
  • As expected, Thawing Glaciers helps keep you somewhat caught up on lands if you draw a land every other turn once you've exhausted what was in-hand with no additional draw. And with the assistance of Crucible of Worlds, Myriad Landscape under the same circumstances (drawing a land every other turn, and only normal draw) is very slow, mana-intensive ramp. Not sure how helpful this kind of "thinning" is if I mainly need to mill, or if the 3 mana could be spared every other turn. I'd really rather reanimate Solemn Simulacrum just before my turn with mana kept open for response if there was nothing to respond to.
  • Geth has been a dead draw in many tests now.
  • Faceless Butcher can save Chainer from targeted removal, but not a wipe.
  • I need to lean more into mill, and the main way I see to make Chainer's gameplan more consistent is to make sure milling starts early. Mesmeric Orb and Mindcrank are amazing, but Altar of the Brood probably needs to join them. Not many other low cmc options because then you start getting into stuff like Ghoulcaller's Bell, but this alone could be reason enough to add back in a couple tutors. Milling may even be slightly more important than card draw.
  • Doom Whisperer is very nice. Don't cast Living Death if somebody else has one available. Do go ahead and spend 20 life or whatever to just mill yourself 20 cards if the Whisperer is yours. If the Living Death is yours just commit 2-4 activations (4-8 life) in immediate response to see if anybody will respond to the Living Death, then if it seems clear add more activations. In one turn with 7 mana I'd brought my Whisperer out with Animate Dead, milled 20 (on top of what was already there, going 43 life to 23), and the Living Death brought out 18-19 creatures and 24 harpies since Abhorrent Overlord was one of them.
  • Wurmcoil Engine has a nice synergy with Altar of Dementia, especially when Sheoldred, Whispering One can bring it back once every turn. But K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth turned what would have been once or twice a turn into actually being able to mill myself out in one turn (at that point I wanted to know how far I could go on remaining resources). He's powerful, but definitely feels like a combo enabler piece, similar to how Ashnod's Altar is.
Bets on upcoming tests:
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

OP Update!
I've been working on both the deck and the OP on/off lately.

The deck is now 42 cards different than the list I last had in the OP, and there's a changelog entry in the OP going into detail there (the 2020-01-04 entry). After a lot of testing and reflection, I decided that I needed a foundation of going back to basics, to meat 'n' potatoes Chainer (except still not much lifedrain). Then anything that is superfluous or not useful can be swapped for something fun (e.g. if I want to bring Head Games or Gonti back).

As for the OP, I'm eventually going for Primer. I'll occasionally be updating it as I finish large chunks to my satisfaction, but probably won't bump the thread again until it's done. Or if there's another set review before then. Speaking of which...

Theros: Beyond Death Set Review
Agonizing Remorse - This is a really good single-discard. Even if I don't run such things in Chainer, I still want a playset.

Aspect of Lamprey - Somewhat relevant effects, but I have better discard already and if I wanted a lifegain aura I'd be running Vampiric Link.

Blight-Breath Catoblepas - Minuses get around indestructible, and Chainer can recur it. I just really wouldn't want to cast it for 4bb. Kindof a meta call, such as if you're also running/considering Dismember or other -X/-X and already doing other stuff related to black devotion. Contrast with Noxious Gearhulk: same cost, but I can target other creatures I control and it gains me life.

Drag to the Underworld - Really not hard for this to be bb, so if you're running other cheap instant removal like Go for the Throat then this is a good option, too.

Eat to Extinction - Four mana exile with Surveil 1. It's nice to have an 'exile creature' effect in the deck somewhere (and instant-speed matters), but as far as noncreature spells go there are other things I'd probably be choosing above this. Silence the Believers can handle multiple targets with enough mana, plus attached auras, and Scour from Existence can hit anything.

Elspeth's Nightmare - Eh, just no. The discard on II is not good for us. I'm okay with "nonland" restrictions, but "noncreature" is not helpful to us and telegraphing it a full trip around the table allows opponents too much time and information to work around it.

Erebos, Bleak-Hearted - Regarding his trigger, I'd rather run Dark Prophecy, and his sacrifice effect is not very useful. Compare to Yawgmoth, Thran Physician.

Final Death - Really, what's with black and creature exile now? Black gets "destroy target creature" and "target player sacrifices a creature" (or each player/opponent), and now "exile target creature", but the closest we get to "target creature's controller sacrifices it" is Lingering Death, Parasitic Implant, and Grave Servitude.

Funeral Rites - That's basically four cards, so if you run Read the Bones (and that's a good card) this may be an alternative for the self-milling instead of scrying.

Gravebreaker Lamia - This one I like. I don't currently run Corpse Connoisseur because I didn't want to be able to tutor reanimation targets too easily, but I'd be swapping it to this if I were. The lifelink and 4/4 body are relevant. The discount on casting spells from the graveyard is mostly just relevant to a YawgWin turn, but could definitely boost how much gets done then. Also, as a snake it's lore-related to Chainer.

Lampad of Death's Vigil - I would prefer to use more impactful sacrifice outlets and then have things like Zulaport Cutthroat trigger off that, but even the Cutthroat just pings. You need a lot of token synergy or combo to gain significant life with either of these. Disciple of Griselbrand on the other hand can gain me large bursts of life by sacking large creatures.

Mire Triton - It's okay as a two-drop that might not get blocked (so carrying a sword is an option). Two cards in the graveyard and two life is decent. It's repeatable with Chainer and it can be clamped.

Nightmare Shepherd - I admit to wanting to test this. A 4/4 flyer for four mana ain't bad, but the trigger allows me make the tradeoff of an immediate token (that's clampable) in exchange for exiling the card. If Chainer dies, I get a backup whose ability I can use. If the immediate token copies are more advantageous than rebuilding with the cards, cool. So this could get around a board wipe to a degree, but also allows me to deny creatures from returning to their owner's graveyard if needed (Mimic Vat may be better toolboxing for that). Granted, this might not work so well and I might choose many times not to resolve the trigger.

Pharika's Libation - I like it more than Mire in Misery. It's okay.

Treacherous Blessing - This is great if you cast a lot and have synergy with life loss, such as Vilis, Broker of Blood. Not really my thing.

Woe Strider - Not bad. Token; self-recurring; sac outlet with decent effect. I'll test it probably.

Nyx Lotus - Unlike Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, it's possible to tap this for zero mana -- and it ETBT. Might acquire one for the collection eventually, but SCG is starting preorders at 10 bucks and that's a bit much to me.

Shadowspear - Or "God's End", haha. I don't know if I'll be running it in this deck, but I really want one.

Soul-Guide Lantern - This is pretty good when you'd rather run it than Relic of Progenitus or Nihil Spellbomb.

Underworld Sentinel - It's okay maybe, just quite slow. I think I'd be more of a Phyrexian Delver sort of guy.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

Today I'd like to talk about Yawgmoth's Bargain... I mean Griselbrand... I mean His Brokenness, Necropotence|28253 #2...

Vilis, Broken AF

Whenever you lose life, draw that many cards.


If you search for black-identity cards what say "whenever you lose life", there are six. A couple that say "whenever you lose life for the first time each turn" that don't even draw cards, three Lich permanents that make you sacrifice or exile cards/permanents equal to life lost, and then Vilis. We lose a lot of life in mono black suicide. We lost/pay it to things like Necropotence (which actually has some drawbacks) and Phyrexian Arena and Yawgmoth, The Machine. In this deck we pay a lot of life to Chainer.

Drawing a card for each life lost is amazingly powerful. Reanimate puts Vilis on the battlefield and then you lose 8 life, meaning Vilis triggers and you also draw 8 cards. Doom Whisperer (awesome with Living Death, by the way) with Vilis lets you draw a card for each life by not putting any of them in the graveyard, or just double the cards you're exposed to by always pitching the two you surveil, or somewhere in between to somewhat filter your draws. Dismember can draw you 4 cards for 1 and kill something at instant speed. Hex Parasite you can just pour life into, and K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth can expand that to abilities that just use b (because he's also quite broken).

b, Pay 2 life: Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.


As if converting life directly into cards wasn't already absurd, he also comes with a way to pay life. Draw tons of cards while taking out utility creatures, or hatebears, or animated Sol Rings if you're into that. And just like with Dismember, you draw the cards whether the target fizzles or not. Pay bbbb and 8 life -- all four abilities targeting the same 1/1 -- you'll still draw 8 cards. Of course, K'rrik just makes this cost read "Pay 4 life". But you could target creatures you're about to sacrifice to Phyrexian Altar or Altar of Dementia.

One of the more interesting interactions in my testing was with Skirge Familiar. As long as you have targets for Vilis's -1/-1, these two hooligans convert 1 card into 2 cards. Be sure to remember that Skirge Familiar's ability is a mana ability and therefore is a discard outlet that does not use the stack. In one test I was completely tapped out on normal mana, but could discard 3 to activate Chainer just to draw 3 again off of paying 3 life, too. And I could pitch extra cards to pay other things and get back up to 3+ cards by way of Vilis's activated ability. I could have seen my entire library if I wanted to. I had lifegain to keep it going, of course, in the form of Torgaar, Famine Incarnate. By the way, if you're above 20 life and have Vilis out and Torgaar enters the battlefield you can target yourself and just draw a stack of cards. Here's a few more things that become insane with Vilis out. Granted, you're still losing life and you might need to recover it (hahaha, "might"), but a card for each 1 life almost makes it not matter as long as you're not dead. At this point I kinda think Razaketh, the Foulblooded is less broken than Vilis. I don't think Vilis will be leaving this list ever. :black_heart:

Feel free to add other techy interactions in the same vein.

Edit: Added notes to the list above for Phyrexian Arena and its like, for Necropotence explicitly, for Reanimate + XHD + Vilis, and for Withering Boon and Imp's Mischief.
Last edited by lyonhaert 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

Damn you, now I'm reconsidering reshuffling my Daxos around to accommodate him. Funny how you mention Necropotence in the setup, but then don't list it as part of the interaction list. Bolas Rock also says hi. That said, I'd argue Big Ole Raz is still dumber if the deck has the infrastructure to support his gobbling.

Also, weirdly enough, I don't think I ever openly stated my admiration of this thread. Your swap discussion is the best in the business.
 
EDH Primers (click me!)
Deck is Kill Club
Show
Hide

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
4 years ago
Damn you, now I'm reconsidering reshuffling my Daxos around to accommodate him. Funny how you mention Necropotence in the setup, but then don't list it as part of the interaction list. Bolas Rock also says hi. That said, I'd argue Big Ole Raz is still dumber if the deck has the infrastructure to support his gobbling.
Yeah, kindof an oversight not to explicitly repeat Necro, but I'll add it under "normal black card draw" along with Arena and its like. Not meant to be an exhaustive list, but to establish the patterns.
Rumpy5897 wrote:
4 years ago
Also, weirdly enough, I don't think I ever openly stated my admiration of this thread. Your swap discussion is the best in the business.
Thanks mate. I do a fair amount of swaps, even though most of the time its from thinking about the possible interactions rather than from hard data since I don't get to play very often. Since the last change, there's much more testing since I've discovered Forge. I have a change of several cards or so coming up because they didn't test as well as I wanted.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

There will be a number of changes to update to the list eventually, then I can continue primer work. I've been getting some games in via webcam and cockatrice lately and have become more comfortable with loosely swapping cards to try things out on a whim. Notably, Demon of Dark Schemes didn't last long before getting swapped back to Massacre Wurm (it's so good it doesn't need flying). The games have given me good feedback on what I like about this approach and what things work or don't. It's been fantastic. I've played more in the past 2-3 months than in the whole 12 months before them.

But for now, set reviews.

Commander 2020

Nikara, Lair Scavenger - Dark Prophecy would be easier for me, as the counter clause is more difficult (even though Yawgmoth can technically supply them).

Boneyard Mycodrax - This is a function where I'd prefer Nighthowler, as Scavenge is one-time. I also don't always end up with a ton of creatures in the graveyard, and I'd want quite a number for 4b to be worth the +1/+1 counters.

Daring Fiendbonder - Sorcery speed is a bummer, but indestructibility is alright. I could answer a need for indestructibility with Darksteel Plate instead, but the main protection in this list is recursion in the first place.

Deadly Rollick - It's a nice option if you're likely to have your commander out. The irony is that I'm more likely to spend mana during my turn to develop some board presence (possibly not having any up for this), and more likely to leave mana up if I have Chainer out. I kindof want an instant-speed "target creature's controller sacrifices it" instead. It's bizarre that Mercy Killing and Sarkhan the Mad kindof do this and also give the controller something in exchange. And Lingering Death is slow.

Dredge the Mire - Combined with heavy, selective graveyard removal this could be quite decent. I still rather prefer Sepulchral Primordial myself for this type of function, but it's an okay card. With enough life+mana it can be looped with XHD as a DIY, partial Rise of the Dark Realms while looking a bit more innocent up front.

Mindleecher - Pretty good flavor-wise, and giving something flying (possibly making it 6/6) ain't bad. Gonti's effect is far better, I think, since it lets you cast things with any type of mana, solving color issues. Sure, Mindleecher lets you play lands that happen to get exiled, but casting other people's stuff would be more desirable to me and so would being able to repeat this effect. If I need some flying enablement, there's still Fallen Ideal.

Netherborn Altar - If Chainer gets expensive to cast, I'm not sure the lifeloss isn't just shooting myself in the foot. But at least it's an artifact that XHD can return.

Parasitic Impetus - To me, the most useful bit is the lifegain, but I would expect this to be unreliable lifegain. Put it on too small a creature and they'll just attack into someone who will block and kill it (slow kill like Lingering Death). Put it on a big creature and it can wreck things for a bit maybe, unless they have a way to tap it. Kinda works with Vilis if you put it on something of your own, though.

Species Specialist - Very decent tribal+aristocrats draw engine. I could indeed name Nightmare once I've got Chainer going with a sac outlet, or name Spirit when I'm using Bloodghast or Nether Traitor. Chainer can reset it to another creature type, and when he does so it'll be a Nightmare and would draw a card for itself dying, unlike Grim Haruspex or Harvester of Souls. Still probably easier to try Dark Prophecy for both tokens and nontokens, but I might test this one because I could make some tokens and draw a bunch off them dying but without losing life, too.

Titan Hunter - For large creature sacrifices I'd rather use Disciple of Griselbrand, but this is not terrible for sacking tokens to. I'd almost want to put lifelink on this, though, but that would require opponents not to be sacrificing creatures enough to trigger for gaining me life, and I'm definitely more interested in those dying (see Sangromancer). Probably worth some testing, though. It can sac itself, so if I have abundant mana somehow I can net gain life looping this with Chainer.

Nesting Grounds - Just a generally useful card that I'll probably end up with a couple copies of, whether they're useful in Chainer or not (since I don't do much with counters).

Manascape Refractor - This one appeals to me. My commander is slow enough that a 3-mana rock probably isn't a loss of tempo, but this could be extra activation of Coffers, Nykthos, Phyrexian Tower, or even just opponent's colored mana for a stolen creature's activated ability.

Ikoria

Bastion of Remembrance - Harder-to-remove Zulaport Cutthroat. I rather like it and would definitely use it if this list were more into the life-leeching aristocrat triggers.

Bushmeat Poacher - I think this actually deserves some testing, but there are some downsides. 1: The part of the cost means I can't use it right away and can only use it once per turn (without a loop involving haste). 2: The "another" clause means I can't sacrifice it to itself. A minor point, but I have used it to dodge exile removal or to loop things with Living Death (I usually have a better sacrifice method when looping that anyway). Otherwise the gain life equal to toughness plus drawing a card is great. After all, I'm testing Ayara, First of Locthwain.

Cavern Whisperer - There's not enough mutate in mono-black to make this a feasible source of discard. I'd rather reanimate Liliana's Spector or Burglar Rats repeatedly if I were going to brute force it without Oppression or Mindslicer.

Chittering Harvester - Pretty much the same reasoning as the above. Also, Chainer is not Nightmare-tribal. At least not in this way.

Dark Bargain - This is not bad, though. I would test this. It's like Ancient Craving / Ambition's Cost but friendlier for reanimator. Also, as a minor note, it doesn't trigger stuff like Smothering Tithe/Consecrated Sphinx/Notion Thief.

Dirge Bat - Flash is one thing, but 4bb is a bit much for a simple targeted destroy.

Duskfang Mentor - The lifelink counter is okay. There's much easier ways of giving my creatures lifelink. If you're in a lifelink-focused deck then this becomes better for its +1/+1 counter pump.

Extinction Event - Sure, it exiles tokens, but there are plenty of ways to deal with them. This seems like a build-around where you use mostly odd or even cmc creatures in your deck in order to make it asymetric and mostly leave your stuff alone, but even then it's rather a crapshoot what's going to be useful against opponents.

Grimdancer - Same issue as with some others above regarding ability counters and Nightmare-tribal.

Heartless Act - Some have said they wouldn't run this on principle, because the poor kitty is gonna die. But this is a pretty damn good removal spell, and mono-black shouldn't hold such qualms. ;)

Insatiable Hemophage - Same Nightmare-tribal and mutate issues as above.

Memory Leak - It's a decent piece of cardboard since they're not going to do instant-speed versions of this. I think I like Agonizing Remorse a little better, though.

Unbreakable Bond - Reanimation sorcery at 5 cmc is pretty standard in black. The lifelink counter is alright, but I think haste from Bond of Revival is a hair better, though the lifelink could do fun stuff with Pestilence-like creatures.

Unexpected Fangs - I'm probably sticking with my opinion that counters are too fragile in this list.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

Alright, more set reviews. Kindof only marking cards in bold that especially piqued my interest for my version of Chainer.

Core Set 2021

Goremand - Having a large version of Slum Reaper is nifty, and it does it in such a way that it's more likely to stick around (whereas stuff like Fleshbag, you're likely to sac Fleshbag to its own trigger). We only have to sac one of our other creatures if we cast him.

Hooded Blightfang - Could be cute with Ogre Slumlord and a bunch of his rats.

Liliana, Waker of the Dead - This version seems an okay toolbox walker. Disruption on the +1, removal on the -3, and the ult is useful but not OP.

Liliana's Standard Bearer - This is an interesting way to draw cards, and 2b shouldn't be too difficult after a wipe.

Malefic Scythe - This would be a cute toy with Altar of Dementia.

Peer into the Abyss - Bonkers card draw. Not unusual for me to be <20 life by the time I could cast this. Should definitely lead to winning the game, but you'll probably want to run stuff like Thought Vessel/Reliquary Tower. I don't because I want to be able to use drawing over 7 as a discard outlet at end of turn. I think I have plans for this elsewhere. :laugh:

Sanctum of Stone Fangs - This effect is decent and as much as bits of life here and there from Claws of Gix has kept me in games I'd have otherwise died much sooner in, don't discount how much that life might mean in Chainer, especially with how early this can come down compared to Polluted Bonds, Subversion, or Palace Siege. Obviously this is not a super strong card in Chainer, but I think it's okay. Also it and Honden of Night's Reach have minor synergy.

Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose - Combos with Exquisite Blood, obviously. I do like that on its own it encourages combat / damage and can manage to hurt opponents even if the creatures don't make it through. A mono-black aggro deck with double-strike and indestructible stuff could be fun to build with him.

Witch's Cauldron - Slower Vampiric Rites.

Chromatic Orrery - There are decks where this is potentially overbearing as a mana source and heavily tips things in your favor if your plan relies on mana sinks. I'm not sure it'd be quite that good here, because of the need for life as well. It could definitely lead to an explosive turn for Chainer if it stick around, but I'm not in a hurry to test it. I don't even run Gilded Lotus currently.

JumpStart

Witch of the Moors - Basically a less scary-looking Sheoldred, Whispering One. I like this one and would run more little bits of lifegain like Pristine Talisman.

Special Mention

Kels, Fight Fixer - I wanted to mention this one from JumpStart separately. Even though her commander color identity is , she's basically a fair(er) version of Yawgmoth that's more combat-capable, and I would have liked to test her in this list if she were just . The more I think about it, the more I want to build a separate deck around her. Perhaps part voltron, part aristocrats.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

Set Review -- Zendikar Rising

So like any other list, there's a ton of stuff that won't make the cut when you're pushing power/speed/consistency up. However, I've been toying around with medium power level with my Chainer deck so there's all sorts of stuff that's still on the table at that point. Presently I'm even fooling around with stuff like Clackbridge Troll and Mindwrack Harpy. Anyway, I like to comment on cards that might be candidates in such levels.

Black cards

Nullpriest of Oblivion -- I tend to like modal stuff, and this sortof is. This comes down early and has a little potential for carrying a sword. But later for 4bb it's backup reanimation. It can be clamped either way. Not the best backup reanimation for Chainer since it has to be cast with kicker paid to do that, which in my mind makes it my synergistic with XHD.

Demon's Disciple -- Oh, look, another Fleshbag Marauder. Honestly, these can be important for many aristocrat-style triggers and tempo, depending on your build and maybe your meta. This one being a Human Cleric may matter if, for example, you run Cavern of Souls and name human.

Marauding Blight-Priest -- More prone to removal than Sanguine Bond, still a 2-card combo with certain other things. Makes me think it belongs more in an aristocrats deck or a lifelink-attackers deck with Vito and Whip. It could whittle opponents down a bit with enough little lifegain triggers, which is what I prefer for keeping Chainer afloat over big bursts of lifegain because gaining too much life can draw aggro from opponents. I like to live a bit dangerously with Chainer and flirt with disaster. Probably wouldn't make the cut, though, as it doesn't do anything else for me.

Nighthawk Scavenger -- I remember in my first attempt to power down Chainer a bit I tried running Vampire Nighthawk. This is a strict upgrade since I do tend to mill oppenents. I like it and will probably try it, because if it doesn't work here I'll likely find or make a home for it.

Taborax, Hope's Demise -- Coming down early for three mana as a 2/2 flier is not terrible as a blocker while we continue trying to setup -- and he's easily recurrable later on -- but we really don't have many clerics to make sure his aristocrat trigger draws cards. Otherwise that's a lot of reanimation/sacrifice effort just for +1/+1 counters to try to get him lifelink when I could just run Whip of Erebos and give everything lifelink.

Skyclave Shadowcat -- I figured I'd talk about this one just because it's a sacrifice outlet and an aristocrat-style trigger for card draw. However, 2 mana to sac is hefty just to put a +1/+1 counter on the outlet (see Carrion Feeder). And it cares a lot about +1/+1 counters, so this seems far better in Marchesa, the Black Rose. Here, it mainly has the Horror thing going for it and I'd rather use Vampiric Rites if I'm going to pay for the sacrifice.

Drana, the Last Bloodchief -- While this also probably more badass in a Marchesa list due to +1/+1 counter synergy, reanimation on attack trigger ain't bad if we want to rely on attacking a bit more.

Oblivion's Hunger -- There are better forms of protection for Chainer I'd rather use, especially since this has that +1/+1 counter synergy I'm unlikely to get for the cantrip.

Soul Shatter -- Not only is the art bloody awesome (I need to follow Wylie Beckert's work now), but making opponents sac their big things is a pretty nice bonus over Fleshbags or sorcery-speed Innocent Blood. I will absolutely use this.

Blood Beckoning -- Without kicker it's just Raise Dead, but with the kicker it's more than Death's Duet. I like modal stuff in general, so it's okay, but I'd rather use something like Grim Discovery instead.

Feed the Swarm -- OOOOOH! Enchantment spot removal in black, now, eh? Definitely worth running if specific enchantments are enough of a problem in your meta, like if somebody is always running Ground Seal.

Colorless cards

Myriad Construct -- Potential for a big body for 7 and powers-matter/sacrifice stuff, but not if reanimated. Probably better in an artifact/tokens deck based on recurring to hand and recasting.

Skyclave Relic -- I know not many folks run Darksteel Ingot anymore, but mid-game is where I'd be wanting to ramp more and kick this anyway so that it's basically 6 to be able to ramp by bbb the next turn. Also important if you steal stuff with things like Praetor's Grasp or other reasons that nonblack colored mana might matter. I like that they're indestructible because I lean heavily on land ramp instead of rocks because the rocks can just die to a Bane of Progress -- getting set back in a mono color that doesn't ramp well can ruin things.

Lithoform Engine -- I might test it if I ever get hold of a copy. I also hope it doesn't become a "does everything" staple that everybody starts using.

Stuff with land on the backside

These all produce b on the backside and all but one enter tapped (and that one you have to pay 3 life for it to enter untapped). That black mana can be useful with Chainer, especially if we're a bit behind on land. Unfortunately they're not swamps, but that only matters to three cards. With the backside out of the way, it only matters if the front is useful to us at all.

Oddly, these are potentially lands recoverable by unusual means like XHD, etc. Usually we're stuck with Crucible of Worlds, Yawgmoth's Will, or stealing somebody's Ramunap Excavator.

Blackbloom Rogue -- We do tend to mill opponents at least several cards most games, so there's a decent chance that by midgame this will be 5/3. This can be useful for power-matters stuff like Altar of Dementia and Disciple of Bolas, but it's otherwise just a body. So this seems better for a very combat focused build that just needs some solid bodies to throw at opponents.

Malakir Rebirth -- This is pretty decent as far as the front side. Single mana instant, lose a little life, surprise reanimation. I could definitely test this one.

Hagra Mauling -- The cost reduction is kindof a no-go since that's not likely to happen in EDH except against... like... monogreen... maybe. Oof, I read that as "no non-basic lands for some reason. Still a bit unlikely. But instant-speed creature removal that doesn't have restrictions is okay. I still like my Dismember|FNMs/Hero's Downfalls/Murderous Riders better, but this can be a land instead.

Agadeem's Awakening -- Obviously not as good as Rise of the Dark Realms, but has enough utility on the front to be worth testing, I guess. This is the one that can enter as a land untapped by paying 3 life. Also, since this specifies different CMCs, I wonder how often the 4 CMC slot is going to bite me since I have a large number of those in the normal list.

Pelakka Predation -- Middle-of-the-road as far as single-card discard spells. That kind of stuff can definitely be a meta call and there are better options first.

Zof Consumption -- I don't like the proportion of mana to life gained (I'd rather just run Blood Tithe or Exsanguinate), but with the right other resources it could work in an XHD loop as a game-ender.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

Set Reviews -- Commander Legends and Kaldheim
Two set reviews today, so I'm using spoilers since it's a lot.
Set Review -- Commander Legends
Show
Hide
Black cards

Court of Ambition -- If I consistently was getting some combat damage through with stuff like Nether Traitor so that it's easy to get Monarch back, maybe. I think I'd have to get the list to the point where it's more consistently doing things like that for the sake of Sword of the Animist before testing this, though. I do like the Monarch mechanic in general.

Eyeblight Cullers -- A potential token and mill source. The tokens wouldn't trigger Ayara, First of Locthwain and I'm not sure I'd try to loop this this with the mill like I would Abhorrent Overlord, but I might test it. Four bodies from one card is decent. Might be better if Yawgmoth, Thran Physician was the commander, though.

Feast of Succession -- HA! For 6 mana, I'd rather this only affected opponent creatures or something. Necromantic Selection is at 7 and gets me something back (which would be important because that -4/-4 would likely kill Chainer). And there are other wipes at 6 cmc or less that have better potential than -4/-4.

Keskit, the Flesh Sculptor -- This makes me think again of a pattern I'm starting to call "Yawgmoth, but not" where if you have enough token production or returning fodder to support this, you might be running Yawgmoth as your commander anyway which is going to overshadow Keskit. I probably won't be testing Keskit here.

Nadier, Agent of the Duskenel -- Seems to want to be for more token-based decks but Ophiomancer + Spawning Pit could make him pretty useful. And he'd probably pair well with Keskit possibly as partners. But really, we all know that since his token production is power-based we'd be slapping Skullclamp and Blackblade Reforged or something on him as an easier way of getting more tokens out of his death. Fallen Ideal would also be funny. I could see myself using Phyrexian Altar + Nadier + Fallen Ideal in a loop with Chainer instead of Abhorrent Overlord at some point. Yeah, that makes me want to test.

Nadier's Nightblade -- Zulaport Cutthroat but only for tokens. :shrug:

Necrotic Hex -- Hmmm. Getting 12 power for 7 mana but possibly losing all my stuff. This seems like it would be better in a big mana MBC that's very creature-light to not lose my own board. I actually haven't seen many token-based decks in my meta that could easily get around the "sacrifice six" so that would typically be pretty devastating to opponents, I think. But I already run a couple other things against tokens. Just for token power per mana I'd rather have Army of the Damned, though (and I still haven't even tested that one and should).

Nightshade Harvester -- Is this an answer to rampy decks? Meh, kinda. I'd much prefer Polluted Bonds, though.

Opposition Agent -- Everyone has talked this one to death, of course. I probably have enough sac outlets I could remove it from being a problem after whatever tutor I initially wanted to capture. Still, I'd probably rule zero it to a "may" trigger with my pod so I can just hand-wave it to ignore standard land-fetch searches like Wayfarer's Bauble and Cultivate. It can certainly be an answer to land ramping, though.

Plague Reaver -- I probably won't like it as much as Oppression, but I kinda want to see what happens some time for fun. Probably somebody just sacks it, though, and the 'fun' ends.

Profane Transfusion -- Nine. Mana. This has a relatively low floor, actually. And the ceiling is a big token that's mainly useful just to Altar of Dementia or Disciple of Griselbrand or whatever. I'm more likely to be trying to start a loop with 9 mana.

Rakshasa Debaser -- So there are two things I like about this that makes me want to test it. First is that it's an attack trigger rather than player-combat-damage trigger, so unlike Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni, I don't have to actually connect. The second is having an 8-mana way to get 18 power (assuming 3 opponents) from the graveyard that can also steal from opponents. Unfortunately I can't mill them to Altar of Dementia to get more choices since I'd already have had to pick the targets for their attack triggers. But one thing I like about Encore is that they're copies, so Soldevi Adnate and Sacrifice are happy little ritual(ist)s.

Sengir, the Dark Baron -- Other than being a potential big flyer for beatdown or power-matters, I'm not entirely sure how I'd use that lifegain trigger. Since I currently use loops to take folks out (and Torgaar is sometimes part of that), it's almost like I'd have to build around Sengir in such a way that I take players out one at a time to refuel life I'm paying to Chainer. That's kindof weird since most of my tools for win conditions affect each opponent (such as Ayara. Sure, if players die one at time due to having different life totals I'd get boosts in life, but typically I'm doing something like triggering Ayara multiple times off Abhorrent Overlord harpies and I get plenty of life to keep going. So I just don't know where Sengir would fit in this list at all.

Szat's Will -- I went ahead and got a copy to test because making folks sacrifice their biggest thing might be useful, as is instant-speed graveyard removal. Only one way to see if this is useful, since I tend to control a commander mid-game at the earliest, and usually late-game.

Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools -- I like it. I want to test it. Drawing two cards on a plus is pretty nice, as is making two tokens on a plus. Plus walkers sometimes take hits that would have otherwise been to my face, so running 2-3 might help me not go so low before stabilizing board state.

Tormod, the Desecrator -- Tormod makes me think of Open the Graves and Desecrated Tomb. His trigger is similar to Tomb rather than Graves, but at least Graves creates untapped zombies. I'd kinda prefer the 1/1 fliers from Tomb, though. I have some plans for Tormod in another deck with some "return to hand" and flashback stuff.

Colorless cards

Commander's Plate -- Generally this seems like it would be good protection for Chainer, maybe even enabling commander damage wins. But the cost of 3 to equip him kinda interferes with activating Chainer right after he hits the field. Dunno when I'll test this.

Horizon Stone -- Yeah, c is pretty bottom-shelf in this deck. I'd rather run Gilded Lotus, you know?

Jeweled Lotus -- As tricks for getting Chainer out early go, I don't think I'm down for this. It takes a little time to have some reanimation targets milled if I'm not using Entomb or Buried Alive to accelerate that aspect. So as rituals go, Dark Ritual, Sacrifice, or Songs of the Damned are probably of way more use to me for explosiveness, and I can get them all back with XHD.

Maelstrom Colossus -- A big colorless cascade is nifty, but at 8 mana is when I'm trying to do something else. Reanimating this doesn't really do much for me, unlike Vilis, Broker of Blood.

Phyrexian Triniform -- So, a reanimatable 9/9 that makes three 3/3s when it dies for a potential 18 power at a discount is already pretty good when compared with Wurmcoil Engine and Ancient Stone Idol (Idol produces more toughness, of course). An Encore cost of 12 may seem a lot, but, assuming 3 opponents, that's just 4 per copy and a total potential power of 54. I absolutely want to test this army-in-a-can.

Rings of Brighthearth -- I kinda love that this got reprinted and is available for a lot less money than the Lorwyn version. I used to run this in the deck when I had more activated abilities like Kagemaro, First to Suffer.

War Room -- With tap effects on lands I count the mana I then am not making, so this actually costs 4 to me. If I had the room for ancillary c-producing that might draw me a card in a pinch I'd try it, but Chainer is just too hungry for b.
Set Review -- Kaldheim
Show
Hide
Black cards

Blood on the Snow -- So this has some potential with snow swamps to be a bit like Necromantic Selection. I just don't quite like the limitation just to save 1 mana on casting. Sure, Selection exiles itself, but this isn't the kind of thing I'm likely to repeat anyway.

Burning-Rune Demon -- So this could be like Final Parting but with a little variance possible since it falls to an opponent to decide what goes where. I do want to at least try it out.

Draugr Necromancer -- So this is interesting. It kinda messes with repeatability with Chainer reanimating things for ETB (forcing some variance), but I can still mill people's creatures and reanimate those. And most of the time I reanimate my own stuff anyway, being very selective about what I steal from others. But Chainer and this and a sac outlet then become Exile Removal Plus since if Draugr dies and I later reanimate it I can regain access to casting those. I also don't have to be all-in on snow swamps since I'd only need 1-3 to handle the color pips, most likely. Wait... this let's me cast any sort of spell as long it meets the other conditions... and the card just has to be a nontoken creature under their control when it dies to be exiled with an ice counter... so I wonder if there's a way I can manifest stuff. I'll have to look into that, too, but this seems neat.

Dream Devourer -- Absolutely testing this. This seems pretty neat, too.

Elderfang Disciple -- So this is pretty much Liliana's Specter without flying and stuff. Dunno if I'd ever use either, but at least this has snakes for Chainer.

Eradicator Valkyrie -- I'm not sold on testing this yet. Might be an interesting variation on the ol' edict effect, though. That hexproof probably isn't going to matter much.

Feed the Serpent -- Well... snake. But Vraska's Contempt is strictly better. Where's me instant speed "target creature's controller sacrifices it" but in black? On that note...

Withercrown -- Losing 1 life probably isn't going to convince someone to sac the enchanted creature promptly. I perhaps should test Lingering Death as a form of targeted sacrifice.

Haunting Voyage -- Not tribal, so even if I want to reanimate two that happen to share a type, compare to Ever After that's the same cmc and goes back in my library.

Rise of the Dread Marn -- This is neat. Low cost for a possible low floor is fine, but it has a pretty decent ceiling, too. There's plenty of opportunity early game to spend 2 to make it ready.

Tergrid, God of Fright // Tergrid's Lantern --
Tergrid is ridiculous theft with sacrifice and discard -- enough that I certainly wouldn't try running her while playing over webcam. Typically it can be handy to have some lightning rods that attract spot removal so that Chainer can come out more safely, but the overhead (and salt) for Tergrid is something to consider.
The Lantern side is a lot less scary, though. With tons of mana it's just a much more costly Torment of Hailfire if you point it at opponents. But we can also point this at ourselves as sacrifice or discard outlet (or draw if Vilis is out).

Varragoth, Bloodsky Sire -- Well, that's an interesting way to do a tutor. I don't expect to get more than one activation out of that. If I do a restriction against normal tutors I could maybe test it, but I don't foresee doing that anytime soon.

Colorless cards

Cosmos Elixir -- I am never drawing cards off this. 2 life a turn might be alright, though? Sun Droplet could do more if most of my life loss early-to-mid-game wasn't my own doing and not even damage. Then there's still Polluted Bonds and Subversion which would gain me more while whittling opponents. So I don't think I'll be testing this here.

Weathered Runestone -- Oh noooooo! LOL
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 2 years ago

Set Reviews -- Strixhaven, Commander 2021, and Modern Horizons 2

There are many, many ways to build Chainer, because at its heart his ability is opportunistic and works so well when done in response to things, even though it's not quite "swamp, go" style. As long as you can feed the mana and life for getting a decent target, you've got a Chainer deck. That said, there are specialized builds I want to try some day - very different from each other - because I'm nowhere near done exploring this commander (it just takes me a long time).

One build I was already mulling over was "surprise/hidden/one-shot sacrifice outlets" except for maybe a couple key on-board permanent-based ones like Altar of Dementia - the idea being to make looping less likely and force me to lean into incremental value plays. Mill wouldn't be as likely of a wincon, so I would have to make commander damage or infect feasible maybe (or Mortal Combat hahahaha).

The other idea was more instant/sorcery heavy (with maybe 20 creatures instead of 30-35) so I could run the actual Mirari in a useful capacity. I note on a few cards below about this version, as a number of cards in Strixhaven and C21 have given this idea more feasibility.
Set Review -- Strixhaven
Show
Hide
Black cards
Baleful Mastery - The opponent who draws doesn't have to be the one who has the critter/walker you're exiling, so you could "do the table a favor" and give fuel to somebody strategically, which to me makes the 1b cost pretty decent for exile spot removal.

Callous Bloodmage - I will likely test this over Agent of Erebos. I love modal things with useful modes, and every one of these modes are decent value.

Mage Hunter - Definitely meta-dependent tech against storm/combo. Life loss effects can pair nicely with Exquisite Blood and/or Mindcrank, but those draw attention because they're halves of two-card combos.

Oriq Loremage - Basically a "fair" Entomb effect. I'll probably test it.

Plumb the Forbidden - I'm going to test this one as a one-shot sacrifice outlet. They can make the pacing of playing Chainer more challenging in exchange for having no apparent sacrifice outlet. This one can be "get value in response to a wipe", too, though Krav, the Unredeemed's ability is way better.

Professor Onyx - So this is a pretty strong card. The first two loyalty abilities are decent effects. I've mulled over the idea of someday doing an instant/sorcery heavy version of Chainer so I can run the actual for-real Mirari, and I'd certainly test it in that.

Sedgemoor Witch - Same deal as Professor Onyx above.

Colorless cards
Introduction to Annihilation - Scour from Existence this is not, because instant speed can be very important for removal. I don't see the downgrade to Sorcery and opponent card draw worth the 2 less cost.

Wandering Archaic // Explore the Vastlands - This could generate a lot of potential value from copies, or just hidden value from the subtle tempo hit of them paying 2 more. I'd need to test it, though.

Biblioplex Assistant - Not top-shelf, but it's a creature that can help recover and instant/sorcery card, so that's noteworthy to me.
Set Review -- Commander 2021
Show
Hide
Black cards
Author of Shadows - This is kinda interesting and I'd like to test it. I don't tend to steal much, so just getting the best thing even if it's not a creature could be a pretty sweet deal.

Blight Mound - As an enchantment it might stick pretty well, but like Pawn of Ulamog and Ogre Slumlord effects it makes tokens as I do the Chainer stuff. But, these tokens give me life when they die (awesome) and the enchantment makes them 2/1 with menace if they're attacking (also awesome). I even already have a copy for testing.

Cunning Rhetoric - I have no idea if this would actually deter attacks, but I doubt I'd get many hits that are way more valuable than my own. But I can play their lands and take their mana rocks, so maybe I'll test it?

Essence Pulse - Pretty low-power wipe. Might deal with some tokens, but anything more is very dependent on your lifegain. Plus it takes out your own creatures, which is what made Demon of Dark Schemes awkward to work with.

Incarnation Technique - Mill 5 plus reanimate is pretty decent already (and one of the cards that have bolstered the spellslinger Chainer idea), but the Demonstrate trigger is also some neat tech in Commander (we want opponents fighting each other).

Keen Duelist - Dark Confidant but for two players? I like how many political effects are in this set since I like inter-player stuff rather than solitaire. My curve really isn't low enough for Confidant anyway, though Duelist could be built-around with return-to-top-of-library shenanigans like Misinformation (though at the same time you're giving them a likely powerful card).

Marshland Bloodcaster - This seems along the lines of a "fair" K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth, so I might test it some day. We'll see. The trouble is this doesn't let you bypass timing restrictions on casting, and a 3/5 flyer is a good blocker to keep untapped with mana up for that ability. So on those grounds I have my doubts about usefulness without stuff like Vedalken Orrery.

Stinging Study - With Chainer that's basically Promise of Power but instant. Don't even have to have Chainer on the field, which is nice since I like to hold up mana once I have Chainer out and I treat him more like an 8-drop commander anyway. I definitely need a couple copies of this.

Tivash, Gloom Summoner - Not sure how useful this would be, but it at least intrigues me and I like the design.

Veinwitch Coven - Recovering creatures to hand for b since we will need to often gain life could be a good toolbox effect. Not sure how applicable it'll be to my builds, but it has synergy potential with some sort of build.

Colorless cards

Tempting Contract - Honestly, I want to try this just because. But I like trying silly things and seeing if they surprise me.

Triplicate Titan - In the same category as Phyrexian Triniform, Wurmcoil Engine, Ancient Stone Idol, and Precursor Golem - I like my multiple bodies and high P/T totals from single cards. We're usually going to be getting a discount on that casting cost anyway.

Witch's Clinic - We're usually pretty tight for non-b utility lands, but if I ever make commander damage a stronger possibility (lol - Hatred) then attaching lifelink is something I have to consider even if there are better ways.

Reprints
There were several good reprints in this. An example was Noxious Gearhulk which as of this moment is at pretty much a bulk price compared to several dollars for the Kaladesh print. Low prices good.
Set Review -- Modern Horizons 2
Show
Hide
Black cards
Archfiend of Sorrows - This is decent. Kindof Budget Massacre Wurm but flying and Unearth.

Archon of Cruelty - This is a pretty good titan for us. I want. It can cause things that trigger Sangromancer twice and we get a total of 9 life. Yesssssss.

Clattering Augur - Probably not great for us in Chainer, but this is one of two new cards that seem good for Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker, the other being Nested Shambler which I note more on below.

Damn - I know this is bw CI, which makes me sad because I can't overload it and say "Damn it all!" in this deck.

Dauthi Voidwalker - This is very good for us, or at least for builds that focus on reanimating our own stuff and don't steal terribly often (like me). Also its Shadow means it carries swords really well. I'm not going to be too happy seeing it across the table and probably need to start running exile a bit more like Duplicant.

Discerning Taste - The card selection and potential lifegain in a creature-heavy build (or interaction with Volrath's Stronghold) tempt me to test this one.

Echoing Return - This is definitely more of a Relentless Rats kinda card, but most return-to-hand is more than one mana so this card is bonkers - just not for us usually.

Feast of Sanity - For 3b I have doubts about this gaining enough value. We'd have to have a self-discard heavy build with Bone Miser and such, and that's not going to be as easy to trigger multiple times as Blood Artist. But it does damage to any target which is appealing - putting a Lifelink or Deathtouch counter on this would be nice. Such good flavor for Chainer, too.

Grief - This is actually pretty strong. The closest other creatures I can think of for this effect are Entomber Exarch (which limits to noncreature cards) and Mesmeric Fiend which needs an instant-speed sacrifice outlet if you want to permanently exile the chosen card.

Loathsome Curator - The limit to MV 3 or less is a bit annoying, but it's otherwise a decent card with Chainer since it can self-sacrifice.

Magus of the Bridge - Also a good token source for our usual reanimation-and-sacrifice shenanigans. If we have instant-speed sacrifice outlets we can avoid the exile trigger. Nice amount of b devotion, too. And Cavalier of Night can reanimate it.

Necrogoyf - I do kinda want to test this. Considering my usual build mills everybody quite a bit, that could be a lot of power for Altar of Dementia.

Nested Shambler - This one gives me thoughts about testing. Skullclamp it and you get 2 tokens. Put Loxodon Warhammer on it and get 4 life at a time until somebody kills it and you get 4 tokens. Could be useful?

Persist - This is a fairly decent low-MV reanimation spell.

Profane Tutor - Since I tend to use tutors rather casually, the Suspend 2 doesn't bother me, and I love RKF art.

Tragic Fall - I'm amused that they designed something similar to Tragic Slip but different. Slip is way easier to get the -13/-13, though. Hellbent could happen if I use Mindslicer or Oppression, but I wouldn't consider it as reliable as Morbid.

Underworld Hermit - This is basically backup Abhorrent Overlord but with a lot less flying. If Overlord is part of your plan but sometimes gets exiled before you can loop it or whatever, then some redundancy could be good.

Unmarked Grave - Another "fair" Entomb variant. I could see myself using this.

Vile Entomber - Basically it's Deathtouch Gravebreaker Lamia and similarly allows Chainer a repeatable Entomb effect. If you already have those effects then the redundancy (or Zombie creature type) is perhaps good.

Colorless cards
Dermotaxi - We can usually tap Chainer no problem, so this is a different way to 'steal' a creature.

Tormod's Cryptkeeper - Since this is a creature, this gives us another recurrable graveyard removal piece. Gotta be careful about timing due to the tap cost and summoning sickness.

Reprints
New arts for Skirge Familiar|MH2 and Patriarch's Bidding|MH2 are neat.

Also, yes, a reprint of Cabal Coffers, not that I expect it to be terribly lower in price than the Torment or Planechase prints.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 2 years ago

Set Review - Adventures in the Forgotten Realms

Probably going to skip anything where the main feature of the card is venturing, as I saw the dungeons and none of them made me think "yeah, that's a Chainer thing".

Asmodeus the Archfiend - I'd kindof rather use the bbb ability using Necrotic Ooze, but I can't deny that's 7 cards for 7 life and bbbb. However, it's on a 6/6 with no evasion and no ETB/LTB, so I'm not excited.

Baleful Beholder - This one seems possibly useful. Menace is decent to give the whole team, with an optional enchantment removal avenue. Beholders are kinda flavorful for Chainer's gimick, I think, too.

Check for Traps - Ignoring the instant/flash stuff, exiling any nonland card from somebody's hand makes for a decent spot discard spell for 2 mana.

Deadly Dispute - Not bad. There's definitely a specific future build for Chainer I'd try this in.

Ebondeath, Dracolich - I think this one noteworthy because "other things dying" is not hard to do, and you get to reanimate a 5-power flier without Chainer.

Lolth, Spider Queen - Probably easy to get the emblem. I was already running some unblockable stuff like XHD and Nether Traitor and one emblem makes them hit for 8. Her other abilities are fine, too. Might test with a proxy some day before buying one.

Vorpal Sword - Considering the previously mentioned unblockables, combat wincon here. And anything else gains a possibility of getting through with that deathtouch. I'd rather mess with my opponents and have other attack triggers I want to get off (such as Sword of Feast and Famine) and keep the creature by being unblocked, though. I don't want to eliminate opponents too soon from the game.

Warlock Class - For a total of ten mana, this is definitely not better than Wound Reflection. I'd rather be able to do the level 2 ability (look at top 3, one to hand and two to graveyard) multiple times for 1b.

Commander's Sphere|AFC - At least I like the dark and purple art here for a mono-black deck.

Death Tyrant - Replacing fallen attacking creatures is great, actually. It doesn't say nontoken, so I could double power by attacking with Harpy tokens and sacrificing them after damage but before end of combat. And it has a little evasion of its own.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

User avatar
lyonhaert
Posts: 641
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 4
Pronoun: they / them

Post by lyonhaert » 2 years ago

Set Reviews - Midnight Hunt and Midnight Hunt Commander

First, the main set cards.

Blood Pact - Pretty standard for the "draw x, lose x" line and I'll get 1-2 for the collection. I like them as instants and it has a slightly better mana cost than Succumb to Temptation. NB: I don't mind when they're 3mv instead of 2mv because early-to-mid-game I'm mostly setting up probably, and later if I have Chainer out I'm holding up 3+ or 6+ mana anyway (hence the lean toward instants).

Bloodline Culling - I do rather like this one. I'm a fan of running Dismember|TSR and I'm good with the trade-off of losing the flexibility of phyrexian mana for the flexibility of the modal choice. Not only will it take out a wide selection of tokens, but potentially multiple hatebears, too.

Defenestrate - I've been a long-time fan of this word, so I'm a bit tickled it's a card now, too. Kinda iffy to me as removal, though.

Diregraf Horde - While the tokens aren't any good for defense (or even repeated attacks) unlike normal zombies from Grave Titan, I like the utility of graveyard spot removal tacked on. Token sources like these are traditionally engine pieces in my builds, to be paired with sacrifice/death payoffs like Pitiless Plunderer.

Dreadhound - Not sure yet if I'll ever test this here or in my Sidisi deck, but it's not bad. Kinda wish it had some evasion, though. Not as powerful as Syr Konrad, the Grim, but less of a removal magnet maybe.

Gisa, Glorious Resurrector - Yes, I want to try this.

Infernal Grasp - Ah, now this is okay creature spot removal.

Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia - I know some folks are talking about this one. I still like my Ophiomancer, though. I'm on the fence about it's utility, though, since it's creating the 2/2 only at my end step and it can't block.

Jerren, Corrupted Bishop // Ormendahl, the Corrupter - Some of the abilities are Human-centric and my creature suite usually is not aside from a handful of "cultists". And while it's probably not too hard to get down to 13 life, it's still a total of 6bbb and luck/setup for a 6/6 lifelink flample that - despite the awesome "sac another critter: draw" ability - is not indestructible like the original Ormendahl, Profane Prince (which is probably easier to flip). So I can look at for the draw ability, or I can look at it for the flying+lifelink... there are better options for both, and the work to flip probably isn't worth trying to have both on the same card.

Lord of the Forsaken - On the other hand, milling three cards is also really good in my builds. I definitely want to try this one and maybe include a bit more flashback for that last ability (even though it works great with Yawgmoth's Will.

Mask of Griselbrand - I'd have to test it, but I do want one to test it. Since the lifelink pays for the trigger it could be a neat element - it's just the kind where it'll depend on meta/psychology/boardstate on how useful it is and whether you can just turn the creature sideways or have to use sac outlets. Probably works well with Torgaar, Famine Incarnate, though.

The Meathook Massacre - I want one.

Morbid Opportunist - Probably pretty decent in certain builds.

Tainted Adversary - Probably more repeatable with big mana in Chainer than Army of the Damned, but the ratio of power and bodies to mana on the latter is really good.

The Celestus - Mostly mentioned because I'm not obsessed with running only 2mv rocks and this could be interesting to try. Day/night is an aspect of the game itself that will flip back and forth based on number of spells cast each turn, regardless of if there are actually any daybound/nightbound permanents, so once that's been started as this rock enters, it'll be interesting to see how often I get that 'life and loot' trigger. Unfortunately since the 3t ability is sorcery-only and I can't use it as a mana sink at the end of a prior opponent's turn if I'm not going to use it for Chainer or something.

Hostile Hostel // Creeping Inn - I think the design and idea is fun. But it is a lot of work to get going.

Okay, now the Commander stuff.

Crowded Crypt - So aside from being early-to-mid-game ramp that makes b, it triggers on tokens and nontokens alike. Also the last ability can be activated at instant speed meaning this has potential as a combo piece or at least combo payoff if one is doing some sort of loop with Nether Traitor or whatever. Also it can be recurred with Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed.

Ghouls' Night Out - I honestly appreciate the pun, aside from appreciating mini RotDR cards. Although, in Chainer I'm still more likely to run Sepulchral Primordial. Part of this latter appreciation for mini RotDR cards is webcam play, but also that I just prefer playing in contexts where getting the best option from each of those graveyards is a splendid advantage but not a certain win usually.

Visions of Dread - Spot graveyard removal (eg, Withered Wretch or Tymaret, Chosen from Death) can help curate the choices available since I like to run such things anyway. 2b for cast and 3bb for flashback isn't terrible with this commander.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Decklists”