Nissa's Spanish Inquisition!

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Post by Card Slinger J » 4 years ago

rogerandover wrote:
4 years ago
If you loads of mana and want to trample people over, Ursapine might be a good card for you. It's also very political, since it can target your opponents stuff too.
I might be able to find a slot for Ursapine though when it comes to 5 drops, Seedborn Muse works wonders. I remember almost having trouble finding a spot for Nyxbloom Ancient since I was lacking on good Enchantments to run. I can see Primal Forcemage being good with Avenger of Zendikar though it seems a bit janky to pull off If you aren't going for an Alpha strike that turn.
rogerandover wrote:
4 years ago
How has Road of Return been working out? Versatility on cards is always a good thing, but don't think I have ever considered/needed to return Nissa to my hand.
It worked pretty well for me in a 6 player pod I played in where it ultimately came down between me, Tuvasa the Sunlit and Kenrith, the Returned King. I remember trying to keep myself alive with Maze of Ith and Constant Mists until I could win with Helix Pinnacle but ultimately lost.
rogerandover wrote:
4 years ago
Also, Amulet of Vigor doesn't seem worth it, or am I missing something?
Being able to have lands enter untapped seems too good not to ignore. Plus it helps get around Stax shenanigans with Winter Orb, Static Orb, and Tangle Wire. I have a friend of mine who runs a Mono White Stax deck for Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant and it can be brutal.
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Post by rogerandover » 4 years ago

So toc, did Ikoria/C20 give you anything?
Generally I havn't been all that excited for the set. Mutate and evergreen-counters seems hella clunky. But for Nissa, there's one card that sparks my joy - welcome Nesting Grounds! This will let me move more counters around, for which i only had Power Conduit before. It's just a shame it only works at sorcery speed, so I can't move multiple counters around during a round, when also having Seedborn Muse. Time for some durdling, lol :)

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

Ikoria:Lair of Behemoths Set Review




Thanks @rogerandover, had been meaning to do this. Work got a little busy around lockdown, so I was behind the 8-ball for spoilers and such. But here we are, a new plane, and Wizards has literally drowned us in spoilers, for not just a standard set, but an associated Commander precon set too.

I'll run over each release separately, as there's a lot of cards to digest. That being said, with this set, I'm not holding out hope for a ton of goodies for us. There's some weirdness, and cool stuff, but as with every established list one does get to the point where new inclusions need to do really specific things to warrant a space opening up.

Artifacts/Colorless/Lands

  • Bonders' Enclave - Not terrible, and probably something I'd easily draw from regularly. I don't see it as critically necessary, though.
  • Farfinder - It is cute, not gonna lie. Foxes are totes adorbs. It's again a bit surplus to requirement, and if I were going to run this I'd already have Civic Wayfinder in the list.
  • Crystalline Giant - This is a limited beater, without some serious help it's not going to cut it in EDH.
  • The Ozolith - This thing is pretty crazy. It just does nothing here.



Green

  • Auspicious Starrix - The first of a few reasonably cool mutate mechanics. I think if the set had gone deeper with mutate cards I'd be thinking differently, but as it is there's not really the support there to make good use of them here, especially this one, that gets better the more it mutates.
  • Gemrazer - If I were to run a mutate card from the set this would be it. Well costed and repeatable.
  • Kogla, the Titan Ape - There's a lot of value stapled to the king of the apes. We get an ETB trigger, an attac trigger, and a bouce ability. At first glance I wasn't super keen on him. The bounce ability doesn't give me much to work with, purely because I have 5 humans in the deck, one of which benefits from being bounced Eternal Witness. That being said, this still does a LOT. It could be worth adding.
  • Migratory Greathorn - Another of the mutate cards I'd probably run.
  • Vivien, Monster's Advocate - Not bad. Protects itself, gives me fat on the field. Well costed, and the static ability could potentially help me use Nissa's +1 ability more wisely. Worth considering, maybe. I'd be interested to hear feedback from others!

Commander 2020 Set Review




And another new set of precons. Not gonna lie, I've been waiting for some new Abzan options, and Tayam, Luminous Enigma calls to me. Again, Nissa fares less well with potential inclusions, but as above, that's purely because the list is at a sweet spot.

Artifacts/Colorless/Lands

  • Nesting Grounds - This is kind of neat. It could do cool things here, like removing counters from Glacial Chasm, dropping counters from our commander to another walker to hit an ultimate, or keeping Spike Weaver fully stacked.
  • Cryptic Trilobite - This is kind of cool, it just doesn't do much or us here. It's my sort of jank though, I do like it.
  • Manascape Refractor - Ok, so this could so some pretty degenerate things, mostly like generate a crap ton of mana. Entering tapped hurts it, not being legendary makes it cool(Mirage Mirror shenanigans ahoy). It's a toss up, and probably meta dependent. We don't have any ways to make this quicker, but if you see a lot of Coffers, Dust Bowls, Maze of Iths and such in your meta, this could pull its weight. This is another one I'd be interested to hear more about from others.



Green

  • Obscuring Haze - These 'free' cards are the new hotness, and this one is pretty decent. Turns your trading attack into an alpha strike, or a rattlesnake block. I have enough fog variants in here to not be super thirsting for it, but it would be a decent addition.
  • Sawtusk Demolisher - Beast Within on a mutate. One more I'd potentially play.
  • Slippery Bogbonder - Really neat card and cute artwork. I like it, but this probably isn't the deck for it.
I'm not absolutely pumped for anything here. I like mutate in theory, I don't know enough about it in reality to know whether or not it's worth pursuing. It could well be and if so I may give it a whirl. Otherwise, King Kong could be worth it....slim pickings in general, I'm still not super certain what to make of this set.

As usual feel free to discuss; if I've missed something obvious sell it to me :)
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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

Really digging Glademuse for my Nissa EDH deck since it almost functions the same as Heartwood Storyteller. Not too crazy about Mutate to be honest, feels too gimmicky to me. Nesting Grounds is pretty solid but yeah I can see how broken it would be with Seedborn Muse If it wasn't sorcery speed. Curious Herd with Mycosynth Lattice can setup for some crazy Beast token shenanigans especially for taking advantage of someone's treasure tokens from Smothering Tithe.

Feels too narrow to be really effective unless it's used with other artifact synergies such as Hum of the Radix and Bane of Progress. Obscuring Haze is kinda tricky with Nissa since I assume you'd have to pay the CMC If she's already a Planeswalker on the battlefield. If she's still a Creature then it's basically a free Fog. I'd like to find a spot for Wilt in my deck but I just don't have the room for it unfortunately.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Card Slinger J wrote:
3 years ago
Obscuring Haze is kinda tricky with Nissa since I assume you'd have to pay the CMC If she's already a Planeswalker on the battlefield. If she's still a Creature then it's basically a free Fog.
Oh she's still your commander as a walker. Her commanderness doesn't change because she shows a different side. I've looked into this before, not only for this deck but Bruna too, on account of meld and having previously being accused of cheating for finishing a game with 21 commander damage from Brisela, Voice of Nightmares. As if I wouldn't know the rules around my own damn decks. At any rate, yeah, it'll most likely be free to cast. That being said, I probably won't run Obscuring Haze here. Constant Mists and Glacial Chasm have me covered, and they're both damn hard to get past.

As far as mutate goes, I really need to know more about the mechanic before I commit. Things such as:
  • What happens to the mutate pile if I bounce the mutate card? Do I get the whole lot back in hand?
  • Same question for removal/graveyard
  • Are the mutate effects ETB triggers?
Ultimately I think it's going to be too laborious to play around with, but considering some of the triggers are pretty decent I'm willing to consider it.....I just need time spare to look in depth into the mechanic, moreso than what the mechanics article from WOTC covers.
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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Constant Mists and Glacial Chasm have me covered, and they're both damn hard to get past.
Which is why I don't run Glacial Chasm for the feel bads it creates with Constant Mists especially when my playgroup normally doesn't run land destruction via Strip Mine / Wasteland. I did manage to ramp off of an opponent's Armageddon with Smothering Tithe triggering Anointed Procession in one of my last EDH games before the pandemic.
toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
As far as mutate goes, I really need to know more about the mechanic before I commit. Things such as:
  • What happens to the mutate pile if I bounce the mutate card? Do I get the whole lot back in hand?
  • Same question for removal/graveyard
  • Are the mutate effects ETB triggers?
Ultimately I think it's going to be too laborious to play around with, but considering some of the triggers are pretty decent I'm willing to consider it.....I just need time spare to look in depth into the mechanic, moreso than what the mechanics article from WOTC covers.
Cephalid Constable is pretty hot with Otrimi, the Ever-Playful right now.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Card Slinger J wrote:
3 years ago
Which is why I don't run Glacial Chasm for the feel bads it creates with Constant Mists especially when my playgroup normally doesn't run land destruction via Strip Mine / Wasteland.
You don't need to feel bad for running Chasm. It costs you ever-increasing amounts of life the longer you have it in play. It's far from the fortress of safety it seems, all I usually use it for is to buy time until someone blows up the board or I have what I need. Even hamming it up with Ramunap Excavator and Drownyard Temple you're missing land drops, so seriously, run it and don't feel bad about it.

Constant Mists though, that card is hilariously abusable in mono green. It does somehow feel a little worse, even though it's fairly similar in being a harsh bargain. I try to get around it by using it politically here and there. It can buy you a lot of good will saving folks from incidental attacks here and there.
Card Slinger J wrote:
3 years ago
Cephalid Constable is pretty hot with Otrimi, the Ever-Playful right now.
Yeah, I looked a little further into it and mutate does not count as an ETB trigger, which is a bit of a bummer and makes me want to consider them less. Ultimately they're still usable but a lot more laborious to abuse. I like that they could give something like Wirewood Symbiote a little more fat to swing, and a few of them have relevant combat abilities, so there's some versatility there. It just isn't as clean and easy to get value from them as I would like.
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Post by rogerandover » 3 years ago

I'm very reluctant to play anything that could give my opponents such a huge opportunity for card advantage as Glademuse would give. Even though I play a bunch of instants, and occasionnaly have Vedalken Orrery, I believe there would always be a deck that play way more instantspeed stuff (hi blue), and they shouldn't be given extra cards for free.

I won't be running Obscuring Haze, though I like the new freespells. But I like my fogs to be repeatable, so it's behind the two mentioned and Spike Weaver and maybe even moment's peace.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

rogerandover wrote:
3 years ago
I'm very reluctant to play anything that could give my opponents such a huge opportunity for card advantage as Glademuse would give. Even though I play a bunch of instants, and occasionnaly have Vedalken Orrery, I believe there would always be a deck that play way more instantspeed stuff (hi blue), and they shouldn't be given extra cards for free.

I won't be running Obscuring Haze, though I like the new freespells. But I like my fogs to be repeatable, so it's behind the two mentioned and Spike Weaver and maybe even moment's peace.
Yep, agree with all of this. There's a huge divide between holding someone off for one turn and being able to do so indefinitely, even if there is a cost to you to do so. A single fog tells someone they need to work on their timing before they swing at you. A wall of fogs tells them to take their garbage attempt to take us down elsewhere :)
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Post by Ertai Planeswalker » 3 years ago

Wow this deck sure came a long way! Also, thanks for the credits, I hadn't even noticed until just now,

Looking over your current list, I have two suggestions:
1: Take out Myth Unbound. I can't imagine this pulling enough weight. I would put Paleoloth back in it's place so you have one infinite combo if you need it. Plus, more recursion is never bad.
2: Replace Blasted Landscape with Dark Depths if you have it. You're already running Thespian's Stage and enough land search. Would really add some extra oomph to Scapeshift.

Also, not sure what ramp to cut but you have some additional land drop cards so land search can often equate to ramp. Perhaps Nylea's Intervention would be a good include as it allows you to find nonbasics. Or just Hour of Promise instead of Crop Rotation. I get that the latter only costs one mana but the Potential upside on one of the others is far greater. Also, adding a Scavenger Grounds seems like a good silver bullet against decks abusing the graveyard even more than you do. You could cut a forest for it.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Ertai Planeswalker wrote:
3 years ago
Wow this deck sure came a long way! Also, thanks for the credits, I hadn't even noticed until just now,

Looking over your current list, I have two suggestions:
1: Take out Myth Unbound. I can't imagine this pulling enough weight. I would put Paleoloth back in it's place so you have one infinite combo if you need it. Plus, more recursion is never bad.
2: Replace Blasted Landscape with Dark Depths if you have it. You're already running Thespian's Stage and enough land search. Would really add some extra oomph to Scapeshift.

Also, not sure what ramp to cut but you have some additional land drop cards so land search can often equate to ramp. Perhaps Nylea's Intervention would be a good include as it allows you to find nonbasics. Or just Hour of Promise instead of Crop Rotation. I get that the latter only costs one mana but the Potential upside on one of the others is far greater. Also, adding a Scavenger Grounds seems like a good silver bullet against decks abusing the graveyard even more than you do. You could cut a forest for it.
Hey, credit where it's due. This was one of those decks that came together via committee, and your advice over on salvation was solid.

1. Myth Unbound, yeah, it's a funny one. Good in it's own way, and casting Nissa is like a red flag to a bull, people just attack her. I don't mind, but it's a nice way to keep costs down and get more value from casting her. I get it though, it's a little niche. Thing is, I never managed to track down a Paleoloth. I could add this in once I can track it down.

2. Yes, Blasted Landscape is average. Reasonable if middling utility, but Dark Depths is a bit expensive for what I can currently afford. Scavenger Grounds I actually have a spare of so that's an easy add, but Depths might have to be a long-term prospect for addition.

I've had Hour of Promise in here before, and it's ok. Crop Rotation I really, really like, for a couple of reasons. It's low cost and instant speed, it does things with Titania, Protector of Argoth and it's great mid-combat for Glacial Chasm. The cost is just so low I can squeeze it in around other plays easily.
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Post by rogerandover » 3 years ago

With Myth Unbound you also get to draw a card once Nissa transforms, and again if she dies. Sure, sometimes it's a do nothing card, but sometimes it will also give you plenty of value. But I agree, if I should cut a card, this might be the one to go first.

I have no opponion about Dark Depths - to me it's a bit boring/underwhelming - still dies to plowshares. Scavenger Grounds I wouldn't run myself. Green is by far the best color at recursion. Scavenging Ooze is an all-star, and I had people fold just because of it.

Crop Rotation can never be cut. The flexiblity is miles high, and I don't think we'll ever get a card that does better what Crop Rotation already does. Putting the land into play untapped, is just way better then two tapped lands IMO.

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Post by Ertai Planeswalker » 3 years ago

rogerandover wrote:
3 years ago
Scavenger Grounds I wouldn't run myself. Green is by far the best color at recursion. Scavenging Ooze is an all-star, and I had people fold just because of it.
I would agree that it is not an ability you use lightly since this deck has some reasonable graveyard recursion itself. But not to the levels that I would consider it a graveyard centric deck. This will hurt Karador, Ghost Chieftain, Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle, Muldrotha, the Gravetide etc. way more than it will this deck. And this deck can run it with virtually no opportunity cost. At least it's better than Blasted Landscape.

Also, @toctheyounger: why no Crucible of Worlds? The effect seems strong enough and while I get Ramunap Excavator is tutorable, it's also more killable and I feel the value it gives this deck warrants the redundancy. You could cut Emrakul, the Promised End for it. I get that EM is powerful card which can end games but that is true for any deck you put it in and I just don't see what it brings in terms of synergy or flavor with the rest of the deck. I think the aforementioned Ursapine would serve this deck better as it opens up the possibility of a fast clock commander kill with Nissa or just getting through a clogged board with Yavimaya Dryad in a meaningful way.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Ertai Planeswalker wrote:
3 years ago
rogerandover wrote:
3 years ago
Scavenger Grounds I wouldn't run myself. Green is by far the best color at recursion. Scavenging Ooze is an all-star, and I had people fold just because of it.
I would agree that it is not an ability you use lightly since this deck has some reasonable graveyard recursion itself. But not to the levels that I would consider it a graveyard centric deck. This will hurt Karador, Ghost Chieftain, Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle, Muldrotha, the Gravetide etc. way more than it will this deck. And this deck can run it with virtually no opportunity cost. At least it's better than Blasted Landscape.

Also, toctheyounger: why no Crucible of Worlds? The effect seems strong enough and while I get Ramunap Excavator is tutorable, it's also more killable and I feel the value it gives this deck warrants the redundancy. You could cut Emrakul, the Promised End for it. I get that EM is powerful card which can end games but that is true for any deck you put it in and I just don't see what it brings in terms of synergy or flavor with the rest of the deck. I think the aforementioned Ursapine would serve this deck better as it opens up the possibility of a fast clock commander kill with Nissa or just getting through a clogged board with Yavimaya Dryad in a meaningful way.
There's no crucible here purely for financial cost, similar to Depths. I have some budget but not enough to justify $35 NZD on a single card.

I do like the idea of Scavenger Grounds at least for utility. I don't run Scavenging Ooze but then I don't really see a ton of reanimation or graveyard shenanigans so I haven't really had to bear down on it.

I kind of like Ursapine. Em I haven't cast in forever, it just hasn't come up, but I do kind of like the idea of swapping her out for something that gives me a bit more firepower mid game rather than endgame. I don't have an Ursapine, but surely there's other comparable mid game combat pumpers around.
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Post by Ertai Planeswalker » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Ertai Planeswalker wrote:
3 years ago
Also, toctheyounger: why no Crucible of Worlds? The effect seems strong enough and while I get Ramunap Excavator is tutorable, it's also more killable and I feel the value it gives this deck warrants the redundancy. You could cut Emrakul, the Promised End for it. I get that EM is powerful card which can end games but that is true for any deck you put it in and I just don't see what it brings in terms of synergy or flavor with the rest of the deck. I think the aforementioned Ursapine would serve this deck better as it opens up the possibility of a fast clock commander kill with Nissa or just getting through a clogged board with Yavimaya Dryad in a meaningful way.
There's no crucible here purely for financial cost, similar to Depths. I have some budget but not enough to justify $35 NZD on a single card.

I do like the idea of Scavenger Grounds at least for utility. I don't run Scavenging Ooze but then I don't really see a ton of reanimation or graveyard shenanigans so I haven't really had to bear down on it.

I kind of like Ursapine. Em I haven't cast in forever, it just hasn't come up, but I do kind of like the idea of swapping her out for something that gives me a bit more firepower mid game rather than endgame. I don't have an Ursapine, but surely there's other comparable mid game combat pumpers around.
I had no idea about card prices. But I just looked up the price of some of the cards on magiccardmarket.eu. Crucible of Worlds is €9,50, Paleoloth costs €0,45, Dark Depths costs €12,00 and Ursapine is €0,17. Emrakul, the Promised End will fetch you €30,00. So you could buy the cards you need + have some spending left for future upgrades. Just sayin.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Ertai Planeswalker wrote:
3 years ago
I had no idea about card prices. But I just looked up the price of some of the cards on magiccardmarket.eu. Crucible of Worlds is €9,50, Paleoloth costs €0,45, Dark Depths costs €12,00 and Ursapine is €0,17. Emrakul, the Promised End will fetch you €30,00. So you could buy the cards you need + have some spending left for future upgrades. Just sayin.
You do have a point, but then again, you always lose in trade. Most LGSes trade at maybe 50-60% value, right? So from Em, a $55 NZD card I'm likely to get maaaybe $30 tops, probably less. Which would get me the smaller bits and some credit, or Crucible, or some of the cost of Depths. I definitely get it, Em isn't really needed, but looking at prices here for those picks, it won't cover all of these. I'm still not super convinced I need a crucible here anyway, I'd personally prefer to lean into additional land plays per turn with something like Azusa, Lost but Seeking or Exploration. But I'm probably not likely to get enough credit to cover those either.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

An update after recent discussion.

I'd been side-eyeing Ursapine since it came up, wondering if it was worth a try. At 3gg it's costed ok, and I did a quick gatherer dive for anything else that trades g without tapping for stat pumps. This is pretty much it (Elder of Laurels caught my eye too, but is relatively conditional by comparison).

So I'm gonna give it a go; as mentioned, it could alpha strike with Yavimaya Dryad, as well as Tornado Elemental, gives me the (still very slim) option of commander damaging someone out, and gives me lots to do with Nyxbloom Ancient mana.

I had actually meant to be adding Paleoloth too. I ordered it for nothing from my LGS, but they couldn't find the damn card. It wasn't meant to be, this time. I like the idea of one weird and wacky combo in the deck, I like that I can do it at instant speed, and I've been meaning to sit down with the rest of the list and see if there's any other specific angles to work with Paleoloth and other inclusions, but it's a moot point for now.

Emrakul, the Promised End I won't miss overly. For an Eldrazi titan she was super flavourful, I loved the 'unlucky 13' thing it had going. In terms of gameplay though, I was always too timid to pull it out on my wife and it just sat in my hand in a lot of other games too, so there's no reason to keep it. Ursapine is a lot more unassuming too, which I like.
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Post by rogerandover » 3 years ago

Another good thing about Ursapine, which you didn't point out in your post, is it's ability to target any creature, not just your own. This makes it a pretty funny political toy. You can potentially deal damage during opponents turns if you buff an unblocked dude. You could even make blockers bigger, to kill off an attacking creature.
Looking forward to hear how it preforms.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

rogerandover wrote:
3 years ago
Another good thing about Ursapine, which you didn't point out in your post, is it's ability to target any creature, not just your own. This makes it a pretty funny political toy. You can potentially deal damage during opponents turns if you buff an unblocked dude. You could even make blockers bigger, to kill off an attacking creature.
Looking forward to hear how it preforms.
That is pretty cool. I guess it makes it a little easier to eliminate problematic creatures and problematic opponents while also spreading goodwill...in some directions, anyway. I guess the idea is if you pull this trick make sure the guy you're shanking stays down :laugh:

I like that though; I've used Constant Mists like this in the past to make allies (and also to leave them hanging when a win is on the cards, but hey that's how this game goes), so this could be really helpful.
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Post by weltkrieg » 3 years ago

I don't know about ursapine. It really needs a ton of mana to be great, and you're not doing much with what you have. It's a different story if you have other effects (the only one in your deck that easily gets nuts is pathbreaker ibex) that can magnify the effect. I suppose the commander damage option is a thing, but Nissa really? I am not so sure. Even in my mono green sasaya deck which routinely generates hundreds to thousands of mana without going infinite, ursapine wasn't impactful enough.

It's just not as efficient as kamahl, fist of krosa for what it does. As far as +1/+1 pump effects go, it's not the only one I know of. There are various rootwalla effects, unyaro bees, etc. that also do so, but only for themselves. Unlike ursapine, unyaro bees is actually a kill condition on its own due to the built in evasion.

It is pretty nasty in a meta where dismiss into dream or cowardice is a thing.

Onto paleoloth: good card, but why here? It's 6 mana, doesn't trigger on itself entering the battlefield, and you only have 8 to 9 other creatures in the deck which can trigger it. Only one of those (titania) can make tokens which trigger it also. Greenwarden of Murasa seems almost strictly better for your needs (same cmc and power, gets any card) or Deadwood Treefolk (which also does trigger on itself).

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

weltkrieg wrote:
3 years ago
I don't know about ursapine. It really needs a ton of mana to be great, and you're not doing much with what you have. It's a different story if you have other effects (the only one in your deck that easily gets nuts is pathbreaker ibex) that can magnify the effect. I suppose the commander damage option is a thing, but Nissa really? I am not so sure. Even in my mono green sasaya deck which routinely generates hundreds to thousands of mana without going infinite, ursapine wasn't impactful enough.
You're not wrong in that it just get things big, but I do have evasion on a lot of the list. Between Rogue's Passage, Tornado Elemental, Yavimaya Dryad, Baru, Fist of Krosa, Pathbreaker Ibex, Rampaging Baloths, Nyxbloom Ancient, Hornet Queen and Thorn Mammoth there's a reasnable amount of creatures that can connect and beat face. I'm going to just see how it goes initially; most of what I like about it is as a mana sink for extra resource, which realistically I could cover with something like Squallmonger too/instead.
Onto paleoloth: good card, but why here? It's 6 mana, doesn't trigger on itself entering the battlefield, and you only have 8 to 9 other creatures in the deck which can trigger it. Only one of those (titania) can make tokens which trigger it also. Greenwarden of Murasa seems almost strictly better for your needs (same cmc and power, gets any card) or Deadwood Treefolk (which also does trigger on itself).
Paleoloth is a consideration for its interaction with Mirage Mirror and Baru, Fist of Krosa - all 3 on field, activate mirror targeting Baru, OG Baru dies to legend rule, Paleoloth triggers returning Baru to hand, use Mirage Mirror's grandeur ability, wurm triggers Paleoloth to bounce OG Baru again, rinse and repeat as required. It's janky enough that I'll consider it. Some games just need to end and it's nice having the means to do it, and the chances of it happening game after game are slim. It's a moot point at present anyway as I can't track a copy down, but I do like that it's the sort of combo you would never expect to find in a singleton format. I'll be looking into the rest of the list too to see if there's any other neat interactions with Paleoloth, I just don't have the time now :)
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Post by weltkrieg » 3 years ago

Using mirage mirror's grandeur ability with paleoloth and baru certainly isn't a bad idea. You of all people know how much I appreciate corner case jank (especially since I remember helping you with this deck concept back on salvation!). That said, you will need a 4th card to get the original baru back first (paleoloth triggers on etb, not death, unfortunately) unless baru was to be your commander. Does paleoloth do enough on its own to warrant the slot in an otherwise crowded list? That is the question that I think needs to be answered.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

weltkrieg wrote:
3 years ago
Using mirage mirror's grandeur ability with paleoloth and baru certainly isn't a bad idea. You of all people know how much I appreciate corner case jank (especially since I remember helping you with this deck concept back on salvation!). That said, you will need a 4th card to get the original baru back first (paleoloth triggers on etb, not death, unfortunately) unless baru was to be your commander. Does paleoloth do enough on its own to warrant the slot in an otherwise crowded list? That is the question that I think needs to be answered.
That's the question really. IRL we're days away from baby so I really haven't had the chance to dive into the list for this.

The wurm with X/X = land count is what triggers it btw. It's nice that the card doesn't say non-token otherwise the loop wouldn't work.
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Post by weltkrieg » 3 years ago

No, I am not arguing the loop once it gets going.

Scenario: 5 or more lands on battlefield, Mirage Mirror , Paleoloth , and Baru, Fist of Krosa . Mirage mirror copies baru, original baru dies to legend rule and goes to graveyard. Until you have a way of getting the original baru back in hand, you cannot discard it to copy baru for the grandeur ability.

Translation: You need a 4th effect like Regrowth or similar to make the loop work. It doesn't even easily work if baru is the commander and not nissa, though Command Beacon becomes an option.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

weltkrieg wrote:
3 years ago
No, I am not arguing the loop once it gets going.

Scenario: 5 or more lands on battlefield, Mirage Mirror , Paleoloth , and Baru, Fist of Krosa . Mirage mirror copies baru, original baru dies to legend rule and goes to graveyard. Until you have a way of getting the original baru back in hand, you cannot discard it to copy baru for the grandeur ability.

Translation: You need a 4th effect like Regrowth or similar to make the loop work. It doesn't even easily work if baru is the commander and not nissa, though Command Beacon becomes an option.
Oh, yeah I see what you mean. Ideally you need Eternal Witness or another fatty to trigger Paleoloth that first time. That is a wrinkle. You can't even use bounce shenanigans once the legend rule triggers because it's an SBA. Well, that's a further complication.
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