Nissa's Spanish Inquisition!

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Ertai Planeswalker
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Post by Ertai Planeswalker » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Paleoloth is a consideration for its interaction with Mirage Mirror and Baru, Fist of Krosa - all 3 on field, activate mirror targeting Baru, OG Baru dies to legend rule, Paleoloth triggers returning Baru to hand, use Mirage Mirror's grandeur ability, wurm triggers Paleoloth to bounce OG Baru again, rinse and repeat as required. It's janky enough that I'll consider it. Some games just need to end and it's nice having the means to do it, and the chances of it happening game after game are slim. It's a moot point at present anyway as I can't track a copy down, but I do like that it's the sort of combo you would never expect to find in a singleton format. I'll be looking into the rest of the list too to see if there's any other neat interactions with Paleoloth, I just don't have the time now :)
I have more than one eating dust in my binder. If you promise to run it, I can send you one if you PM me your postal adress.

And congratulations on the baby!

EDIT: Would Genesis perhaps be better than Wayward Swordtooth? I'm personally fond of the repeated recursion it brings. Would also give you another way to recur Baru. Additionally you could consider adding High Market in place of a forest. I like it anyway for it's protection against exile effects like StP, but along with Genesis it would give you yet another way to repeatedly use etb's.

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Post by OCPunisher » 3 years ago

Hey all, just wondering if we could drum up some discussion on ways to win that don't involve the combat step. For the record, I run Yeva, Nature's Herald at the helm, but the deck plays out similarly. So far, I've noticed that my only real way to win involves some form of Overrun-effect, aided by either Timbermare to clear out blockers, or Shaman of Forgotten Ways to bring life-totals to within striking distance. Therefore, I'm looking for at least one reasonable way to win the game without using the combat step.

I noticed that this list runs Squall Line as a potential win-con, and I'm wondering why that over something like Squallmonger, or if there are any other alternatives I'm missing. Thanks!
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 3 years ago

Hurricane + big mana + glacial chasm is my go-to alternate route in monogreen. Dealing 22-30 to each opponent late game is very doable.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Ertai Planeswalker wrote:
3 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Paleoloth is a consideration for its interaction with Mirage Mirror and Baru, Fist of Krosa - all 3 on field, activate mirror targeting Baru, OG Baru dies to legend rule, Paleoloth triggers returning Baru to hand, use Mirage Mirror's grandeur ability, wurm triggers Paleoloth to bounce OG Baru again, rinse and repeat as required. It's janky enough that I'll consider it. Some games just need to end and it's nice having the means to do it, and the chances of it happening game after game are slim. It's a moot point at present anyway as I can't track a copy down, but I do like that it's the sort of combo you would never expect to find in a singleton format. I'll be looking into the rest of the list too to see if there's any other neat interactions with Paleoloth, I just don't have the time now :)
I have more than one eating dust in my binder. If you promise to run it, I can send you one if you PM me your postal adress.

And congratulations on the baby!

EDIT: Would Genesis perhaps be better than Wayward Swordtooth? I'm personally fond of the repeated recursion it brings. Would also give you another way to recur Baru. Additionally you could consider adding High Market in place of a forest. I like it anyway for it's protection against exile effects like StP, but along with Genesis it would give you yet another way to repeatedly use etb's.
Thanks :) life is busy with a wee one in it, but it's nice too.

I'm not sure about Genesis. It's very costly and I don't have an easy way to get it to my graveyard without a whole lot of fuss. The effect is nice, but it's a lot of hoops.
OCPunisher wrote:
3 years ago
Hey all, just wondering if we could drum up some discussion on ways to win that don't involve the combat step. For the record, I run Yeva, Nature's Herald at the helm, but the deck plays out similarly. So far, I've noticed that my only real way to win involves some form of Overrun-effect, aided by either Timbermare to clear out blockers, or Shaman of Forgotten Ways to bring life-totals to within striking distance. Therefore, I'm looking for at least one reasonable way to win the game without using the combat step.

I noticed that this list runs Squall Line as a potential win-con, and I'm wondering why that over something like Squallmonger, or if there are any other alternatives I'm missing. Thanks!
I like Squall Line as an out of nowhere win. It's instant speed and doesn't telegraph like Squallmonger. Either one is fine, I just don't have a copy of the latter.

As far as alternate win strategies, how do 'win the game' cards like Helix Pinnacle suit you? I've been thinking about Pinnacle. With Nyxbloom Ancient and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx I can pump out good numbers, but if I can get Nacatl War-Pride and Karametra's Acolyte both in play there's a good chance I can cast in and win same turn cycle.

Other than that, a lot of my wins come from folks capitulating through me being obstinately destructive. Wave of Vitriol will make a 5c player scoop, and Terastodon is nasty if you can recur it enough. It's mean but it works.
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Post by Ertai Planeswalker » 3 years ago

Torturing people into submission is very Spanish Inquisition too ;)

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Post by rogerandover » 3 years ago

If you want to go old school, you could do Ifh-Bíff Efreet instead of Squallmonger. Only minus is that it kills itself, but you can always put a Darksteel Plate on it :)

What I like better about the hurricanes on sticks is that they are repeatable. My jam is Awakening and Seedborn Muse, which can amount to devastating hurricanes rather fast.

Oddballs will be Cyclone, but it's slow as hell. I mostly use it to kill off small dudes. And surprisingly enough, it eats removal more often then not. I recently added back Primal Order, and it's a hit oor miss. But when it hits, it do hurt a lot.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Well, back again after a small hiatus for parental leave. I'm now a dad, and that's pretty cool.

In the meantime I've been mulling over further win cons as per @OCPunisher's query. It is sort of hard to get out of combat wins in mono green, but I think between things like Squall Line and Squallmonger/Ifh-Bíff Efreet plus some form of lifegain/protection, they are really good kill switches. I think Helix Pinnacle is a little bland, but with enough resource it's an easy win too, and it protects itself so there's that. In terms of what's in my deck already, I really like Shaman of Forgotten Ways for getting folk within pushing distance. It's capable of ending a game really quickly if the cards play out well enough.

On other topics, @Ertai Planeswalker, @weltkrieg and I were discussing the possible addition of Paleoloth for an infinite wurm loop with Baru, Fist of Krosa and Mirage Mirror. It needs help, in that the legend rule is not enough to trigger Paleoloth to start the loop. I think the solution is already here, in Bramble Sovereign. It does mean you need to sequence the play quite specifically, but it works:
[*]Baru, Fist of Krosa, Mirage Mirror and Bramble Sovereign in play.
[*]Activate Mirage Mirror targeting Baru, Fist of Krosa. SBA causes one to sacrifice, we choose the original.
[*]Cast Paleoloth, and pay 1g for Bramble Sovereign trigger. The second copy entering triggers the first copy's ability, allowing us to pick up Baru, Fist of Krosa from the graveyard.
[*]From here until the end of turn we can create as many wurms with x/x=lands we control as we like at instant speed.

So having to cast the Paleoloth makes it a little less useful in that, short of adding instant speed play like Chord of Calling or Winding Canyons we get a whole lot of wurms without haste, but it is doable with the existing framework of the deck as it stands, without having to add anything like Regrowth. Eternal Witness could potentially get Baru, Fist of Krosa back to hand too, but that doesn't make things any quicker or cheaper. Nonetheless, it is an option if I can track a copy of Paleoloth down.
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Post by weltkrieg » 3 years ago

Hello toc. Welcome back! Congratulations on the addition to your family! I hope that the child brings great joy!

As you have described it, certainly you can achieve lots of wurms. However, is there really a reason to? In order to win that turn, you need a haste outlet (of which there are only 3 that I can think of that are particularly viable, 4 if you count finale of devastation cast for x=10 or more). In either case, if you have 10 mana or so (your method described here requires 10 mana, which admittedly isn't a lot for a green deck, but getting to 12 or so for the finale in addition would be difficult, I expect) then you can probably win the game with a whole lot less fanfare. You could just as easily use temur sabertooth and loop cloudthresher a few times and probably win about as easily with a whole lot less card slots dedicated to it. Admittedly, it's not as useful if you are chaining that much mana through it, but it *is* an option.

Is the purpose to try to find an alternate combo win?

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

weltkrieg wrote:
3 years ago
Hello toc. Welcome back! Congratulations on the addition to your family! I hope that the child brings great joy!

As you have described it, certainly you can achieve lots of wurms. However, is there really a reason to? In order to win that turn, you need a haste outlet (of which there are only 3 that I can think of that are particularly viable, 4 if you count finale of devastation cast for x=10 or more). In either case, if you have 10 mana or so (your method described here requires 10 mana, which admittedly isn't a lot for a green deck, but getting to 12 or so for the finale in addition would be difficult, I expect) then you can probably win the game with a whole lot less fanfare. You could just as easily use temur sabertooth and loop cloudthresher a few times and probably win about as easily with a whole lot less card slots dedicated to it. Admittedly, it's not as useful if you are chaining that much mana through it, but it *is* an option.

Is the purpose to try to find an alternate combo win?
Thanks, and so far it's a net gain. No major lack of sleep, lots of cuteness, all positive stuff.

Yeah I mean I think ertai was suggesting it as a surefire way to grind out a win if nothing else presents itself. It seems fine to me, in that it works well enough, although unless I can do it outside of my turn the combo doesn't do much for me and is pretty susceptible to board wipe. I'd be happy to consider other combo possibilities to some degree, as the deck does flounder sometimes, but hey, they can't all be zingers.
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Post by weltkrieg » 3 years ago

Well, in that case, it makes more sense just to remove whatever is causing you to not be able to kill them. Green isn't the best at creature board wipes, but it can absolutely blow the living snot out of everything else. The wurm combo you described is both susceptible to board wipes and pillow fort. At the very least, the nacatl war-pride gets around the pillow fort (attack another opponent with lots of creatures and then put the tokens on the battlefield tapped and attacking mr. pillowfort). If it were me, I would dedicate more slots to problem removal and just rule the red zone. If infinite life happens, well, you can always blow up your own nissa planeswalker for commander damage (with damage goat around, shouldn't take more than a hit or two). Removing the problems also fits in more with your plan of mono green control.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

weltkrieg wrote:
3 years ago
Well, in that case, it makes more sense just to remove whatever is causing you to not be able to kill them. Green isn't the best at creature board wipes, but it can absolutely blow the living snot out of everything else. The wurm combo you described is both susceptible to board wipes and pillow fort. At the very least, the nacatl war-pride gets around the pillow fort (attack another opponent with lots of creatures and then put the tokens on the battlefield tapped and attacking mr. pillowfort). If it were me, I would dedicate more slots to problem removal and just rule the red zone. If infinite life happens, well, you can always blow up your own nissa planeswalker for commander damage (with damage goat around, shouldn't take more than a hit or two). Removing the problems also fits in more with your plan of mono green control.
I don't disagree in that respect. Enough problem removal makes you a key that can open any door. I am always on the lookout for more versatle removal options, either in terms of being attached to a body or being reusable/versatile. Ikoria hasn't really given me much, sadly. In some ways I like Sawtusk Demolisher, but mutate is so parasitic it's just really hard to get mileage from. I do sort of like Kogla, the Titan Ape - it does a few things relatively well. The fight mechanic I can make use of, the Naturalize trigger I can use too, and his bounce ability isn't half bad either, as it protects some of my key pieces (Shaman of Forgotten Ways, Sylvan Safekeeper etc) and gives me another way to reuse Eternal Witness. It's not supremely useful, but it's not nothing either.
If infinite life happens, well, you can always blow up your own nissa planeswalker for commander damage (with damage goat around, shouldn't take more than a hit or two).
I'm still waiting for a voltron kill somewhere down the line. It hasn't happened yet, but between Ibex and Baru, Fist of Krosa the possibility does exist, even if it's highly unlikely.
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Post by weltkrieg » 3 years ago

Sawtusk demolisher and some of the mono green mutates have tons of abuse-ability, though I will admit it probably isn't that great in your shell. I am going to acquire them and do a test run in my yeva build. Mutating at flash speed has a lot of advantages that otherwise aren't great (also, my endgame involves Temur Sabertooth / Seedborn Muse / something abuseable). Mutate comes at a price discount compared to my normal engine so it's well worth testing.

Kogla is pretty good, but I don't know that it is better than Thorn Mammoth . Maybe in addition to?

Ikoria really didn't give you much, that much seems apparent. If you ran more planeswalkers (outside of your commander), Nesting Grounds might be an interesting toy.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

weltkrieg wrote:
3 years ago
Sawtusk demolisher and some of the mono green mutates have tons of abuse-ability, though I will admit it probably isn't that great in your shell. I am going to acquire them and do a test run in my yeva build. Mutating at flash speed has a lot of advantages that otherwise aren't great (also, my endgame involves Temur Sabertooth / Seedborn Muse / something abuseable). Mutate comes at a price discount compared to my normal engine so it's well worth testing.

Kogla is pretty good, but I don't know that it is better than Thorn Mammoth . Maybe in addition to?

Ikoria really didn't give you much, that much seems apparent. If you ran more planeswalkers (outside of your commander), Nesting Grounds might be an interesting toy.
Yeah, it's close but no cigar in most cases. I like Sawtusk Demolisher, Migratory Greathorn and Gemrazer but the opportunity to reuse them is quite low here, and that's where the value comes from, mutating repeatedly. So yeah, it's a no from me, dawg.

Kogla, the Titan Ape would definitely be an addition to Thorn Mammoth, not a replacement. Myth Unbound could swap out easy.

Yeah, in general there really isn't much. Even the Commander precons are pretty disappointing for Nissa - I'm getting them anyway for funsies elsewhere, but they don't contribute much here at all.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

So, the one good thing about lockdown is having a touch more time to play some games. I've tried to get some in with Nissa over the last few days, and while she has given me some good gas, I've lost every game. But hey, I've had fun and that's what counts.

I really wanted to have some more feedback about recent additions, but frankly, not many of them have come up. The one that seems to have shuffled its way to the top most often is Nyxbloom Ancient. And it's been pretty good. I guess you could expect more superlative, but there's some caveats with the card:
1. You need to be prepared for a target on your head.
2. You really need a way to convert raw mana into a win fast.

The sheer mana this thing produces is disgusting, but I've thus far found myself without anything meaningful to funnel it into. Ideally, you want to play it into Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, Ursapine or something that can use a heck of a lot of resource, but thus far it's been around in isolation of any of that, which I have to admit is frustrating.

Moving forward in the coming days, I am going to add Kogla, the Titan Ape for more disruption. I've also managed to track down a Yavimaya Granger, and I may drop a Helix Pinnacle in here too. That last is not the most exciting win, but it's got a low opportunity cost that I can make use of with several ways to generate the resource to make it work.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Well, finally have a reasonable game to report, amidst nappy changes and work from home.

Played a 4-way against The Mimeoplasm, Alela, Artful Provocateur and Xyris, the Writhing Storm today. Stunningly great start with a T1 Green Sun's Zenith into Dryad Arbor and T2 Wirewood Symbiote/ Elvish Visionary spam. I hit Springbloom Druid and Harrowed my way into 7 lands super quick, flipped Nissa and then got Rampaging Baloths online, as well as Baru, Fist of Krosa. I swung a little with them and got some damage through, then after some milling via Consuming Aberration, Mime Living Deathed. I got pretty lucky with Lotus Cobra, Titania, Protector of Argoth, Brutalizer Exarch, Kogla, the Titan Ape and Kamahl, Fist of Krosa reanimating. I set my ETB triggers and used Exarch to fetch Nyxbloom Ancient. Next turn I managed to put down like 60 damage with Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Nyxbloom Ancient, wrecked a Lightning Greaves with Kogla, the Titan Ape and used his bounce on Kamahl to keep him alive.

By this point I was archenemy, but it was more or less too late. Living Death got another cast, with brought my elves and bounce package back in as well as Baru, Fist of Krosa, so I used it to squeeze the last 3 basic lands out of my deck for Baru's pump, swung in and finished the game.

Learning points are:
Nyxbloom Ancient is eons better when you have a mana sink.
Kogla, the Titan Ape is pretty great with/as part of a bounce package.
T1 Arbor is great, as is early ETB triggers with Wirewood Symbiote.

All in all, pretty fun game. I was more overtly dominant than I'd usually like to be but when you have the momentum to finish the game sometimes it's best to just back yourself and end it before anyone can muster resistance.
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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

Have you looked into running Magus of the Candelabra for sinking mana with Wirewood Symbiote bouncing either Nissa, Vastwood Seer or Elvish Visionary back to hand while having mana doublers out like Keeper of Progenitus, Heartbeat of Spring, Zendikar Resurgent, and Caged Sun?

Also been thinking of testing Nantuko Mentor over Ursapine for group hug creature pump plus it untaps with Wirewood Symbiote and other untap abilities to reuse again. I thought about swapping Arachnogenesis for Obscuring Haze however the trade off of being able to block creatures with flying long-term seemed too good to pass up.
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Post by weltkrieg » 3 years ago

@toctheyounger That sounds like a disgusting game. Good to see the list can compete! I approve!

That said, between your list in the op and cardslinger j's suggestion, I am curious. With only a few elves with ETBs (and I counted 8 elves total in your opening list), even though one is your commander, is wirewood symbiote worth it? Sure, it is obscene in the elvish visionary line here, but how often is it a dead draw? I would think that your commander is a planeswalker better than half the time so even your commander is not necessarily a guarantee.

Do you find yourself searching for this combination often? My thought is that you would instead search for a Temur Sabertooth and not have any real restrictions other than mana (which isn't much of a restriction for you...). Is it just to return those few elves for re-use?

@Card Slinger J I don't think your suggestion is a bad one. In fact, it's pretty good. However, it really depends on what you're trying to influence for group hug. If the creature's power is cmc 3 or less, then ursapine is just as efficient and outright better at lower power (extremely important if you're trying to influence other combats other than your own). Additionally, ursapine doesn't have to tap to activate, also important if blocking is a thing. If the game is all about fatty tribal (power 4 or greater) then Nantuko Mentor starts to become nuts as a Berserk that targets anything and is repeatable. For a group hug aspect, that is pretty solid!

With regards, to magus of the candelabra: What are you trying to dump stupid amounts of mana into? If your lands don't tap for 3 or more mana, I don't feel that it is worth it. I run it in my Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant // Sasaya's Essence build and untapping with that is enough to make people **** their britches. It does work with a nyxbloom ancient, but other than that it's so/so. You're spending a lot of mana to make a lot of mana and if you don't have a massive sink available to outright win the game, I don't think that it is worth it.

It really sounds as if you are more activated ability tribal in your list based on your suggestions. What does that list look like? I would be interested to see what a mono green activated ability list looks like.

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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

@weltkrieg Nantuko Mentor's really to try to make more use of Wirewood Symbiote's untap ability which is also why I've been thinking of adding in Magus of the Candelabra as well. I am trying to dump stupid amounts of mana into Helix Pinnacle, Planar Bridge, and Planar Portal. I figured Magus of the Candelabra would also work well with mana doublers (Caged Sun, Heartbeat of Spring, Zendikar Resurgent, Nissa, Who Shakes the World, and Keeper of Progenitus) aside from Nyxbloom Ancient which triples the amount of mana I produce.

The Nissa, Vastwood Seer EDH list that I run doesn't run as many creature activated abilities though it does run plenty of artifacts with activated abilities such as Vivien's Arkbow, Planar Bridge, and Planar Portal. You think Elder Druid would be better than Magus of the Candelabra for being able to untap Planar Bridge / Planar Portal instead of trying to ramp for extra mana? As far as my creature group hug goes I run Glademuse, Heartwood Storyteller, and Keeper of Progenitus. Oath of Druids also makes for interesting group hug strategies as well.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

weltkrieg wrote:
3 years ago
toctheyounger That sounds like a disgusting game. Good to see the list can compete! I approve!

That said, between your list in the op and cardslinger j's suggestion, I am curious. With only a few elves with ETBs (and I counted 8 elves total in your opening list), even though one is your commander, is wirewood symbiote worth it? Sure, it is obscene in the elvish visionary line here, but how often is it a dead draw? I would think that your commander is a planeswalker better than half the time so even your commander is not necessarily a guarantee.

Do you find yourself searching for this combination often? My thought is that you would instead search for a Temur Sabertooth and not have any real restrictions other than mana (which isn't much of a restriction for you...). Is it just to return those few elves for re-use?

Card Slinger J I don't think your suggestion is a bad one. In fact, it's pretty good. However, it really depends on what you're trying to influence for group hug. If the creature's power is cmc 3 or less, then ursapine is just as efficient and outright better at lower power (extremely important if you're trying to influence other combats other than your own). Additionally, ursapine doesn't have to tap to activate, also important if blocking is a thing. If the game is all about fatty tribal (power 4 or greater) then Nantuko Mentor starts to become nuts as a Berserk that targets anything and is repeatable. For a group hug aspect, that is pretty solid!

With regards, to magus of the candelabra: What are you trying to dump stupid amounts of mana into? If your lands don't tap for 3 or more mana, I don't feel that it is worth it. I run it in my Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant // Sasaya's Essence build and untapping with that is enough to make people **** their britches. It does work with a nyxbloom ancient, but other than that it's so/so. You're spending a lot of mana to make a lot of mana and if you don't have a massive sink available to outright win the game, I don't think that it is worth it.

It really sounds as if you are more activated ability tribal in your list based on your suggestions. What does that list look like? I would be interested to see what a mono green activated ability list looks like.
Yeah, Wirewood Symbiote is slightly niche. There's a few more ETB elves I've missed that I could add: Yavimaya Granger, Multani's Acolyte, Caller of the Claw, Selvala, Heart of the Wilds. Aside from these listed, the options do get a bit slim outside of heavy elfball synergy. I've done a gatherer search and the options are fairly slim. There's ramp options a lá Farhaven Elf and draw options a lá Elvish Visionary but more expensive to cast, Primal Forcemage, and outside of that the options are elf tribal and limited land search (Elvish Rejuvenator being the best of them).

That being said, bare minimum it's a great option with my commander if I'm struggling for mana. You're right, it's probably 50/50 for time Nissa is flipped. But 7 lands is still a lot to hit early, so bouncing her a couple of times for a Civic Wayfinder effect is fairly helpful. Ultimately that's the basement for it's utility, which isn't awful.

I think ideally something less specific but still as cheap to cast and use would be great to add, but there really isn't much out there and I have all of the best bounce options in mono green already, in Cloudstone Curio and Temur Sabertooth.

Magus of the Candelabra could be fairly decent. I have the capability of creating a disgusting amount of mana already, and this would more or less make it degenerate. It's also a human, so I can use it to protect Kogla, the Titan Ape which is a cute cherry on top. I think the one thing that makes me hesitant to add it is that that much mana I really need mana sinks for. I have a few; Kamahl, Fist of Krosa is obscene, as is Temur Sabertooth, but if I don't have these out I'm generating a crap ton of resources I can't do anything with, and that paints a target on my head which I can't defend. I'd be interested in further mana sink suggestions, FWIW.
Last edited by toctheyounger 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Card Slinger J
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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

Here's some mana sinks you could run:

Mind's Eye
Helix Pinnacle
Leyline of Abundance
Genesis Wave

Hope that helps.
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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Card Slinger J wrote:
3 years ago
Here's some mana sinks you could run:

Mind's Eye
Helix Pinnacle
Leyline of Abundance
Genesis Wave

Hope that helps.
I hadn't considered Leyline or Gen Wave, those are novel. Pinnacle I'm sort of eyeing up, mostly because it's pretty low cost and I can use it pretty easily to get the game over with. I think Leyline of Abundance could be ok, but it's a lot to pay for the effect and that second ability is just not going to achieve much for me. Gen Wave I'm not sure is right here, purely because the deck does sort of need to be sequenced well to win; vomiting everything from my library into play is strong, but not necessarily enough to close out the game.

I've also looked at Ant Queen and Squallmonger. Squallmonger is a pretty convincing add purely for Glacial Chasm's presence here, and it's a pretty solid win con. I might try and pick it and Pinnacle up shortly. It's a shame Squallmonger's creature type is Monger and not human or elf for bounce abilities with Wirewood Symbiote or Kogla, the Titan Ape but it's still strong nonetheless.

edit:
I did a gatherer search for green elf "enters the battlefield" options as above, and came across at least one option that's a mana sink AND ETB trigger in Wren's Run Packmaster. It'd be easy enough to make a huge army with it, and champion means going a level deeper on ETB triggers. It'd surely be a target for removal, so if/when it does, or if I have Wirewood Symbiote out I have another way of triggering something like Wood Elves. It's not the worst option in the world.
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weltkrieg
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Post by weltkrieg » 3 years ago

It looks as if there is a great deal of back and forth here.

@Card Slinger J In that minor list, I do believe indeed that Elder Druid is probably stronger than wirewood symbiote unless you have an extremely heavy elfball subtheme. It sounds more like mono green activated abilities, which means that Elder Druid has many more targets with the artifacts and lands like Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx .. Better still is to run activated ability doubling in Rings of Brighthearth . Better still, if you have lots of creatures with activated abilities, you could run Instill Energy , Nature's Chosen , and Illusionist's Bracers .

@toctheyounger Given that your deck is more about enter's the battlefield triggers rather than full on mana sink, I don't know that ant queen is good enough here. I would think Jade Mage is actually superior since you are still running the Woodland Bellower tech I started you on at the very beginning. It costs more, but it's more easily searched.

I both like and hate Wren's Run Packmaster . In an elf heavy list, it can be amazing. In your list, it's begging for a spot removal to be used on whatever elf you have (likely the ONLY other elf you have) to get the 2 for 1.

Given what I stated previously, if you want a mana sink, there are two I think qualify here. Both are kinda old school today, but they are:

Nemata, Grove Guardian I *LOVE* what this card can do if you're barfing up mana like no one's business and it makes combat miserable for your opponents. It's also fetchable with your bellower package (cmc 6 so Fierce Empath can find him whereas it could not find ant queen. does cost one more to make a saproling, though.) I haven't done the exact math, but I am pretty sure nemata's mana sink ends up being considerably superior to ant queen strictly because of the sacrificial ability.

Verdeloth the Ancient Reuseable ETB mana sink, at your service! A lord for other treefolk and saprolings (your opponents too, unfortunately), but you can toss whatever mana you have into him...all of the mana you have, rather, and then bounce him back and do it again if you want to. It's also searchable with the same cards that find woodland bellower (admittedly, only the one card, but cmc 6 seems to be a sweet spot for this deck). I noticed that you're no longer running the Invasive Species [/card] engine, but that is probably better in my yeva deck for flash shenanigans.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

weltkrieg wrote:
3 years ago
@toctheyounger Given that your deck is more about enter's the battlefield triggers rather than full on mana sink, I don't know that ant queen is good enough here. I would think Jade Mage is actually superior since you are still running the Woodland Bellower tech I started you on at the very beginning. It costs more, but it's more easily searched.

I both like and hate Wren's Run Packmaster . In an elf heavy list, it can be amazing. In your list, it's begging for a spot removal to be used on whatever elf you have (likely the ONLY other elf you have) to get the 2 for 1.

Given what I stated previously, if you want a mana sink, there are two I think qualify here. Both are kinda old school today, but they are:

Nemata, Grove Guardian I *LOVE* what this card can do if you're barfing up mana like no one's business and it makes combat miserable for your opponents. It's also fetchable with your bellower package (cmc 6 so Fierce Empath can find him whereas it could not find ant queen. does cost one more to make a saproling, though.) I haven't done the exact math, but I am pretty sure nemata's mana sink ends up being considerably superior to ant queen strictly because of the sacrificial ability.

Verdeloth the Ancient Reuseable ETB mana sink, at your service! A lord for other treefolk and saprolings (your opponents too, unfortunately), but you can toss whatever mana you have into him...all of the mana you have, rather, and then bounce him back and do it again if you want to. It's also searchable with the same cards that find woodland bellower (admittedly, only the one card, but cmc 6 seems to be a sweet spot for this deck). I noticed that you're no longer running the Invasive Species [/card] engine, but that is probably better in my yeva deck for flash shenanigans.
I'd forgotten about Nemata, Grove Guardian. That's kind of nuts with enough resource. Sure you don't have evasion but you can create some enormous saprolings nonetheless. Verdeloth the Ancient I like a little less, and I guess it's purely for the fact that his tokens won't pump as far, but that could just be the Timmy in me talking. With enough resource it would spread fairly far, although I'd assume Nemata, Grove Guardian would spread further due to the sacrifice effect. Both pump saprolings on all sides of the field but that doesn't matter overly, when we're throwing as much resource as we can at it.

Invasive Species - I can't remember why I dropped it, though it's been out of the deck some time. I ought to reconsider that. I've only just noticed it can bounce lands and walkers too. Potentially there's at least a couple of ways it could help produce tremendous amounts of mana, possibly even infinite. Although that would be barring interruption and using at least 3-4 cards.
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Card Slinger J
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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

weltkrieg wrote:
3 years ago
Card Slinger J In that minor list, I do believe indeed that Elder Druid is probably stronger than wirewood symbiote unless you have an extremely heavy elfball subtheme. It sounds more like mono green activated abilities, which means that Elder Druid has many more targets with the artifacts and lands like Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx .. Better still is to run activated ability doubling in Rings of Brighthearth . Better still, if you have lots of creatures with activated abilities, you could run Instill Energy , Nature's Chosen , and Illusionist's Bracers.
I was assuming you were going to suggest Elder Druid over Magus of the Candelabra instead of Wirewood Symbiote. The list I'm running isn't really aiming toward a Heavy Elfball Subtheme when it's about how much I'm contributing to the board state as possible before swinging for game. The activated abilities of the creatures I'm running were really just to supplement Wirewood Symbiote's untap ability as well as Seedborn Muse's. Rings of Brighthearth is nice though I don't have the money for it right now and I'm running out of room for new artifacts as it is.
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weltkrieg
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Post by weltkrieg » 3 years ago

Card Slinger J wrote:
3 years ago
weltkrieg wrote:
3 years ago
Card Slinger J In that minor list, I do believe indeed that Elder Druid is probably stronger than wirewood symbiote unless you have an extremely heavy elfball subtheme. It sounds more like mono green activated abilities, which means that Elder Druid has many more targets with the artifacts and lands like Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx .. Better still is to run activated ability doubling in Rings of Brighthearth . Better still, if you have lots of creatures with activated abilities, you could run Instill Energy , Nature's Chosen , and Illusionist's Bracers.
I was assuming you were going to suggest Elder Druid over Magus of the Candelabra instead of Wirewood Symbiote. The list I'm running isn't really aiming toward a Heavy Elfball Subtheme when it's about how much I'm contributing to the board state as possible before swinging for game. The activated abilities of the creatures I'm running were really just to supplement Wirewood Symbiote's untap ability as well as Seedborn Muse's. Rings of Brighthearth is nice though I don't have the money for it right now and I'm running out of room for new artifacts as it is.
Do you have a list posted somewhere? I could make more constructive suggestions there.

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