Varina, Lich Queen

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

On-color Filters in splash-focused 3-color decks are amazing in my experience; even in Gitrog there were days where Twilight Mire dug me out of jams by turning coffers mana into GG or a single forest into BB.

I had a 3-color deck with Aminatou that was maybe 75% blue and used the 2 blue filters and they were always exceptional - making WW or BB for odd casts on one card while simultaneously making UUU costs easy.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
On-color Filters in splash-focused 3-color decks are amazing in my experience; even in Gitrog there were days where Twilight Mire dug me out of jams by turning coffers mana into GG or a single forest into BB.

I had a 3-color deck with Aminatou that was maybe 75% blue and used the 2 blue filters and they were always exceptional - making WW or BB for odd casts on one card while simultaneously making UUU costs easy.
I've had similar experiences with Twilight Mire in Glissa, the Traitor. It's just handy to have in a pinch. In this deck I could see them being useful, although I'd probably only run the two black splashers myself, Fetid Heath and Sunken Ruins.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
On-color Filters in splash-focused 3-color decks are amazing in my experience; even in Gitrog there were days where Twilight Mire dug me out of jams by turning coffers mana into GG or a single forest into BB.

I had a 3-color deck with Aminatou that was maybe 75% blue and used the 2 blue filters and they were always exceptional - making WW or BB for odd casts on one card while simultaneously making UUU costs easy.
I've had similar experiences with Twilight Mire in Glissa, the Traitor. It's just handy to have in a pinch. In this deck I could see them being useful, although I'd probably only run the two black splashers myself, Fetid Heath and Sunken Ruins.
Yeah by on-color I mean on the main color - this deck is Buw, only splashing the blue and white really. He's not playing a Mystic Gate that I can see, and no real huge reason to. He's got ruins and adding heath I think will help.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
On-color Filters in splash-focused 3-color decks are amazing in my experience; even in Gitrog there were days where Twilight Mire dug me out of jams by turning coffers mana into GG or a single forest into BB.

I had a 3-color deck with Aminatou that was maybe 75% blue and used the 2 blue filters and they were always exceptional - making WW or BB for odd casts on one card while simultaneously making UUU costs easy.
I've had similar experiences with Twilight Mire in Glissa, the Traitor. It's just handy to have in a pinch. In this deck I could see them being useful, although I'd probably only run the two black splashers myself, Fetid Heath and Sunken Ruins.
Yeah by on-color I mean on the main color - this deck is Buw, only splashing the blue and white really. He's not playing a Mystic Gate that I can see, and no real huge reason to. He's got ruins and adding heath I think will help.
Oh I didn't see the Ruins, whoops. Yeah seems reasonable. My build is pretty similar for colour mix, seems reasonable to look at filters at some point in the not too distant future.
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Here are my overdue card summaries/evaluations for Zendikar Rising and Commander Legends. I just bunched them all together and tried to limit the scope of what cards are being discussed. There might be something I missed of course, but hopefully I got the main ones.

White Cards

Promise of Tomorrow - We really like mass reanimation like this card but the effect is very hard to control quite right without really opening ourselves to getting blown out. It is not worth it and other mass reanimation spells are far better.

Black Cards

Elvish Dreadlord - I think if this said non-zombie creatures, it would be a bit more in contention for inclusion. It shouldn't be hard to get it to die and having 3 copies to completely wipe the board is decent. But, I think Nevinyrral is just better as is basically the same idea and the same cost.

Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools - I think I like this card over some of the Lilianas I have as it gets me away from completely relying on Varina for card draw. With some of the more recent discussions in @toctheyounger's thread, I am thinking this might make a better 5 drop than Alhammarret's Archive. Especially now since the draw doubling is covered with Teferi's Ageless Insight. I think that ends up being a straight swap.

Tormod, the Desecrator - This is on the cusp of being good enough to include. While the ability is ok-ish, being on a 4 mana creature makes it not very worthwhile. The deck is already moving in the direction of preferring mass reanimation which doesn't do a lot with Tormod, and a single extra token just isn't all that exciting. There is an infinite loop with Gravecrawler and Phyrexian Altar if one wants to go that route but outside the combo, I don't think the effect is quite worth it to be included.

Multicolor Cards

Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant - Speaking of Nevinyrral.... 6 mana is obviously a lot so he isn't just an auto include. But the idea of being able to have him enter and just be a threat to take out the board when needed is really good. He is effectively an instant timing wrath and has some interesting sequencing where he can wrath the board with his ETB trigger on the stack to then get an army of zombies right away, while everyone else has nothing.

Being recurrable is good as well. I think the most obvious swap is just Hour of Revelation due in part to the mana requirements of the latter. I have re-tooled the mana base to help support it better, but with Nevinyrral here it might just be best to forget about it and move into a creature based wrath.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

With the cards from Zendikar and Commander Legends, here are the changes I am going to make for now:
11/12/20
Approximate Total Cost:

Unfortunately, not a lot of cool new toys for this deck. As mentioned above, Tormod could be included but I don't think he is right for the deck. So, I just went with these two.

Nevinyrral allows for a wrath on a creature that can also be used to generate an army if things are sequenced right. As such, I think the right cut is Hour of Revelation. I made a couple mana base changes to better support Hour but I think that ends up not being the right direction now with Nevinyrral.

With that addition, it makes sense to at least go back to one more sac outlet that is a land so I am going to throw Tower back in over a Swamp. The other land changes should be fine to still support the huge black component of the deck with the loss of this swamp.

And Tevesh is one that I really just want to see how it works. Not only does it offer another sac outlet for Nevinyrral, it can help keep my hands full without completely relying on Varina.

As for cuts, Hour and Swamp I talked about, but I decided to go with Havengul Lich over Alhammarret's Archive. This is for a couple reasons. First, Archive still works well with the deck, even being 5 mana. And I have really started moving away from single target reanimation and I think Lich is the right cut. As we get more zombies, hopefully decent ones, the other single reanimation cards likely end up cut as Archive probable will as well. But, for now, I would rather keep it over Archive.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I decided to play a little more online as I sort of got into the mood for it after reviewing all the new cards. Note that any Commander Legends cards are not included yet for obvious reasons.

I played again Arcades, the Strategist, Tuvasa the Sunlit, and Yarok, the Desecrated.

I did keep a pretty sketchy hand with 2 lands and a Talisman. I wasn't thinking about the fact that Prairie Stream enters tapped. I drew a land luckily and fetched 2 basics so Stream was untapped.

I ended up getting stuck on those 3 lands and the Talisman for a couple turns though. Yarok got down a turn 1 Rhystic Study and Arcades had some early mana trouble. Tuvasa did Tuvasa things but nothing too aggressive.

I just played Fleshbag Marauder to get rid of Yarok and Tuvasa early and then played Ashiok, Dream Render to mill myself (because of Tombstone Stairwell in my hand) and exile graveyards. I did this twice before Tuvasa killed it.

I drew an Hour of Revelation and just needed another land to play it. Luckily, the next land I drew was Fetid Heath so that addition came through in spades. However, Tuvasa had a Karmic Justice on the field so I couldn't use it without losing my lands.

They played Starfield of Nyx so I could destroy Justice without losing anything. But, that still left me with having to deal with Starfield. Arcades had some answers but, for some reason, they used one of them on a Dreadful Apathy instead of Starfield. So, Justice came back and then Yarok timed out and I didn't have the mana to cast both Deluge and Hour. So, I just waited. I ended up getting to 5 mana so I cast Grimgrin, Corpse-Born followed by Tombstone Stairwell next turn. I got a bunch of tokens which would have been way better if Tuvasa hadn't gotten Apathy back and exiled Grimgrin. I am still salty that Arcades just let them keep Starfield...

Anyway, I cast Varina next turn and attacked with 7 zombies. This allowed me to gain some life and filter some cards. I ended up keeping Mana Crypt, a land, Patriarch's Bidding, and Toxic Deluge. I probably should have kept Living Death but I wasn't really thinking.

Tuvasa then cast Calix, Destiny's Hand to get rid of Stairwell which wasn't the worst play but I did have to pay 6 to keep it. I am not sure it was really worth it for them but since I wasn't going to get it back from Calix any time soon, it probably made sense.

A couple turns later, after Arcades quit for having mana troubles, and Tuvasa attacked me for 20, I cast Deluge into Bidding. This gave them one creature back and got me 10. And Marauder was one of the creatures returned so they needed to sac their Archon of Sun's Grace that they got back.

Among the cards I got were God-Eternal Bontu, Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Diregraf Captain, and Corpse Knight. I was going to sac a few things to Bontu since my hand only had one card in it (a Godless Shrine) but only after Gray Merchant drained for 14. It wasn't as good as it could have been since the other two players quit, but still not bad.

Unfortunately, because Tuvasa had only 1 card in hand and not a lot on board anymore (Starfield was still around, but probably wasn't enough), they just conceded. It seemed premature to me since life totals would have been 40+ for them and around 30 or so for me. I did have a pretty big board though so without an answer, I would have won pretty quickly.

All in all, it is tough to gauge the success of the deck since 2 people quit before I ever really got going. But at least I was able to deal with a pretty substantial board across the table and reverse it so I had the big board. I am not sure Nevinyrral would have been better than Hour though. At least Hour was only going to cost me 3 mana. I am definitely going to still swap them but it is an interesting point that Nevinyrral might not have done everything I was trying to get Hour to do. The fact that I never cast Hour can't be ignored either, but I had about 4 turns where the only idea was figuring out how to cast Hour without Karmic Justice blowing all my stuff up.
Last edited by WizardMN 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
Luckily, the next land I drew was Fetid Heath so that addition came through in spades
Always love seein this ;)

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I jumped into a queue online that said "tribal" so I figured it would be a good place to test out the more recent changes.

I played against Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca, Jodah, Archmage Eternal (they were the host, so hopefully they were tribal Humans or Wizards), and Aesi, Tyrant of Gyre Strait. Not sure if Aesi was tribal at all as they scooped on turn 3. Not really sure why.

Anyway, I started with 3 lands, Read the Runes, Fleshbag Marauder ,Tevesh Szat, God Eternal Bonty, and Living Death. I had no blue mana but only Runes needed it so I figured I would be fine.

I did draw into a Talisman of Hierarchy and a Dreadhorde Invasion. After I got my first token, I cast Fleshbag to get Jodah off the field along with an inconsequential Merfolk from Kumena.

I did end up missing a land drop or 2 which wasn't good as I had all 5 drops in my hand. I was still able to interact with things like Swords to Plowshares. Unfortunately, during this time, my draws included Mission Briefing, Mana Drain, and Teferi's Ageless Insight. At one point, I had no blue mana and 4 out of the 5 cards in my hand were blue with all but Read the Runes requiring double blue.

Unfortunately, Jodah scooped it up after their commander was blown up and their Vraska was countered. So I never got to see what they were doing. The only good thing is that the scoop meant Mana Drain didn't resolve so Kumena didn't get the mana.

I spent my Swords on their Thrasios, Triton Hero since I really didn't want that thing sticking around, especially since it was now just the two of us in the game. I just passed after that and let my Zombie token grow a little larger.

I finally drew into a fifth land (Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx) and slammed Tevesh Szat. I created two tokens and passed. Next turn, I drew Mana Crypt and sacrificed a token to get a Swamp and Withered Wretch. I swung in with my token which was a 7/7 now thanks to it counters *and* thanks to Kumena's Coat of Arms they cast early on. This was actually a huge card for me.

I gained some life, cast the Wretch, cast Bontu and sacrificed the other Thrull token, This got me to a Fabled Passage so I finally had blue but couldn't play it yet. Kumena attacked me and I blocked with Fleshbag and Bontu to get rid of the Bear Umbra they had. They untapped and cast Rite of Replication to copy their Merfolk Mistbinder 5 times. Now, with those and Coat of Arms, their army was massive.

So, I used Wretch to exile their two creatures and something else. I started my turn and attacked with the token (to gain life) and Bontu. Bontu died and I left him in the yard. I then activated Nykthos for 4 mana and then cast Living Death. Kumena only had 1 card in hand, though was able to draw 2 cards. Luckily, none were counters so the board was wrathed and I got Bontu and Wretch back (Fleshbag just sacrificed itself).

I also ended up with Wayward Servant and Midnight Reaper off Tevesh when I sacrificed Wretch. And I drew a Hallowed Fountain in there. Next turn, I played the Hallowed Fountain and swung out. I knew they had a Cyclonic Rift they had gotten off Merchant Scroll so getting the second blue was huge.

They had a counter spell in hand unfortunately so everything was bounced. But, I had drawn a Bone Miser off activating Tevesh Szat (sacrificing the token I got from Dreadhorde Invasion). So, I just cast my Crypt and Talisman and then cast Bone Miser. I went to discard and discarded 4 creatures and a noncreature. I drew a card and discarded one more creature. I passed the turn with 5 zombie tokens and Bone Miser. And everything was much bigger thanks to Coat of Arms.

Kumena started their turn, couldn't draw into anything, and scooped.

This game was pretty amazing, though the majority was just 1v1 which was not as fun. But Tevesh Szat was really good here. The all star of the game of course goes to Coat of Arms, but this is one of the reasons I don't really like it. And I don't think it is really necessary for the deck. I would have kept grinding as they were down to 2 cards in hand and I had a full grip.

I never got Varina down because of the lack of blue mana but being able to pull out the win there despite having a bunch of dead cards for a while was pretty cool. Nothing more to say about cards in the deck or anything like that. I didn't see anything I didn't like and never felt like I needed a specific card to stay in the game. And this sample size is quite small but I am already liking Tevesh Szat. It is not apparent if he is truly needed, but his effect is, so far, welcome.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Looking back to my previous game, as well as the discussions in the three color mana base thread, I decided to take another look at my mana base to see if there might be something more I can do to better ensure colors. While the previous game was more about not drawing lands, it does show I could use a little more in the lands department to try to ensure my colors are hit.

I am going to go with this for now:
12/02/20
Approximate Total Cost:

So, the lands being added are pretty straightforward: add in duals that can tap for multiple colors and the Pathways are pretty much better than basics in every situation, especially since I have no way to ramp via lands.

What might be less obvious is why I chose those particular lands to cut. After all, black mana is the most important so cutting 3 swamps seems sort of contradictory. But, the idea is that basics are just becoming less useful in this deck and I am adding in 4 lands that can (potentially) tap for black anyway so I don't think I lose out on much.

I am going down to one Plains because I don't like fully cutting basics of any color I might need even though it might be justified here. And I wanted to keep my basic Island count to 2 because of the issues mentioned above.

And, finally, I am beginning to realize Unclaimed Territory is more of a hindrance than a boon. Same with Cavern though the uncounterability with Cavern gives it a pass for now. As such, I feel this is a good time to finally cut Territory. The biggest push to do so again comes from the most recent game above and the realization that I have a lot of noncreature cards that I want to be able to cast, and a lot that take more than 1 colored mana to cast. Which means Territory often messes with those lines without really offering anything of substance for the rest of the deck. In short, there are just better lands.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I got in another game online. This one was against Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury, Phenax, God of Deception, and Syr Konrad, the Grim.

I started with 2 lands in hand, Cryptbreaker and Relentless Dead. I also had Fleshbag Marauder which I was sort of banking on just using to then tap with Cryptbreaker before sacrificing something.

I drew into a Sunken Hollow so I played that first and waited on Relentless Dead. Because Phenax cast Rhystic Study I just played my Prismatic Vista to get to 3 lands and then played the Dead and paid for Study.

They ended up casting Toxic Deluge which suited me just fine as I didn't think the board was all the threatening and I know I wasn't doing anything. Next turn I drew a land and cast Varina (letting them draw a card). Phenax then cast Propaganda and Wight of Precinct Six which was pretty big so I figured this was the time for Fleshbag. It also got rid of Freyalise's Argothian Elder which was nice too.

I swung into Konrad since I couldn't pay for Propaganda. I ended up discarding Peer into the Abyss since I was playing against mill and I figured this wasn't going to be a great card to cast on anyone (I didn't need it for Freyalise and it would have just helped Konrad).

Next turn I cast Alhammarret's Archive so I could draw 2 off Varina. I drew into Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant and Shepherd of Rot and discarded a land. Not ideal but I didn't want to discard anything else.

Freyalise cast Reclamation Sage (after tutoring it with Worldly Tutor) and went after my Archive. Not a bad play in general but with Study and Propaganda on the field, I figured they would have been better going after either of those.

Konrad cast Goremand which made me sac Varina (I didn't have the mana to create a token) so the next turn I just cast Varina again and again didn't pay for Study. Freyalise then cast their general and blew up the Study so we didn't have to worry about it anymore.

For some reason though, Phenax cast Consuming Aberration, equipped it with Lightning Greaves and then milled Konrad. While they had Konrad out. That resulted in a ton of triggers which brought me to 16, Freyalise to 4, and Phenax themselves to 7. They milled 6 more to deal 3 more damage to everyone after that and Freyalise scooped it up.

They decided not to attack for some reason though so I started my turn and cast Winds of Abandon and then swung into Konrad (I still couldn't pay for Propaganda). Phenax cast Consecrated Sphinx and equipped it with Greaves but chose to stay back on defense. Konrad recast Konrad and then exiled our graveyards with Soul-Guide Lantern. So my Zombie Apocalypse in hand wasn't all that useful.

I started my turn and drew for turn. Sphinx let Phenax draw 2. They had Sphinx's Tutelage which milled Konrad for 4 and at this time it made sense since they only had 5 cards left in their library. The first 2 that were hit were black so they milled them out and we took no damage off Konrad. I was at 68 cards in my library at the time.

I played Undead Warchief and swung at Konrad for the trigger and then left open 2 mana for a Zombie from Varina. Which I forgot entered tapped so the plan of using it to block ended up not really working. Phenax cast Fleet Swallower and equipped it and passed. I just played Shepherd of Rot so I could just close out the game. This turned out to be an exceptionally important play in the end. They milled me for 25 on my turn, attacked with Fleet Swallower to put me to 18 and then Traumatized me for 9 and milled me for the rest with Sphinx and Phenax. I just started my turn, stopped on my upkeep, and won with Shepherd since I had 4 zombies and they had 3 life.

This was a pretty crazy game overall and Shepherd really came through. Considering I was against a mill deck, it was sort of disappointing not to be able to get some mass reanimation going on but it worked out in the end.

The major thing of note is the Archive. I still think I would much rather have something else in that slot, but preferably something with a cheaper CMC. I don't know if it should be another wrath or a counterspell or something, but I think there are better options.

Also, I did have Nevinyrral but never cast him as I could not find the right time to do it. I really wanted to though as I wanted to get rid of some of the stuff on Phenax's board. It is only one game but it does show he is not just a wrath and takes a little bit of effort to get him to work.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Now that we have the entire set spoiled, as well as the Commander Decks, here are some of the cards that stand out to me for this deck:

White Cards

Cosmic Intervention - With the sac outlets in this deck, as well as things like Living Death, I like to think this could actually end up allowing for a bit of a blowout with those types of cards, in addition to helping protect against wraths.

Blue Cards

Mystic Reflection - The only real reason I put this here is because I think it would be awesome to target an opponent's Craterhoof Behemoth (or something huge) and then cast one of the mass reanimation spells. Yeah, everyone else has theirs enter as a copy of that creature but it is my turn and I get to attack! Realistically it probably won't end up doing much so it is a questionable card, but the ceiling in this deck is quite high.

Reflections of Littjara - When this was first spoiled, I felt like I had to add it (probably over Archive) but even looking at it now, I really think I should focus on getting the curve of this deck down. Getting duplicates of creatures is nice but probably a bit overkill. So swapping a 5 drop for another 5 drop doesn't really accomplish what I think I should be striving for.

Tales of the Ancestors - I doubt this deck needs this card, and the fact that it is (more or less) symmetrical, means I likely won't include it. But it does seem to have a decent ability to really refill our hand when needed (while also potentially refilling our opponents' hands). I think I leave it out for now, but I don't think it is a bad card by any means and might have a place in the deck in the future.

Black Cards

Draugr Necromancer - I don't know about this. It gives us the ability to get "free" cards to cast, effectively being a draw engine. It also allows for the Necromancer to die and come back and still let us cast those cards. It does require a snow mana base which I am not opposed to but I don't know if I can get enough lands to make it worthwhile. As it is, I only have 6 basics that I could just straight make Snow which is sort of low. Which means that any Red or Green cards just can't be cast. Maybe exiling creatures is enough as it does make my Living Death effects that much better later on.

Haunting Voyage - A one sided Living Death (basically, a slightly more expensive Zombie Apocalypse). 9 mana over two turns is a lot of mana though. I don't think I want to go this far into mass reanimation as I prefer the rest that I have, even if other people get things back too.

Rise of the Dread Marn - After a wrath, or even after a Living Death, this can help flood the board with even more creatures. I think the timing might not always work out so it can be kind of clunky, but it might be worth it. Not sure if it is is absolutely needed (I am leaning towards 'no' for now) but I think it can fit.

Multicolor Cards

King Narfi's Betrayal - This actually plays with, and against, a couple of things in the deck. First, it clearly fills my yard to make my mass reanimation better. And it lets me exile cards to cast on the next two turns which is a form of "draw" (though, not one the deck necessarily needs). The main issue is that it fills other people's graveyards which makes my mass reanimation spells worse. I think that because of that, and because I still need to pay mana (and I can only do it for two turns) means this is a pass for now.

Colorless and Land Cards

Pyre of Heroes - I think I have to at least mention this card. A Birthing Pod but for Tribal (in this deck, it is effectively the same as if I had Pod), but I don't really like tutor effects. I don't think this is a bad card, and it probably makes sense in the deck, but I am hesitant to include it just based off the fear of repetitiveness. So, I will skip it for now, but I think it is a powerful card for the deck,

Hengegate Pathway - More mana fixing.

Port of Karfell - Entering tapped is a pain. But the ability itself could be pretty good. Since it is stapled to a land, it can just sit around, still doing something, until I absolutely need it. I am thinking of trying to slot this in as a way to get something back when I need to. I think it is worth it entering tapped for the ability long term. Or, at least, it is worth trying out to see if it does anything in longer games.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

So, with the new cards I mentioned above, I am potentially looking at the following changes:
01/24/2021
Approximate Total Cost:

Cemetery Reaper just isn't as good as I want it to be. Lords tend to be irrelevant as it is and the ability itself is supplanted with Varina (more or less). Of the remaining lords I have, I think it is an easy cut.

Archive has been talked about but 5 mana is a lot and Teferi's Ageless Insight does a suitable impression. Insight might not even be necessary to be honest, so cutting the 5 drop is what I am going to try.

Liliana Untouched by Death seems like the worst of the remaining Lilianas. Her "ultimate" isn't all that great since I need to pay mana for them and I would rather just reanimate everything at once anyway. The only real ability she has is the removal one and I think I have plenty of other removal where she won't be missed.

Port and the Pathway are just being swapped with an Island and Cavern. I think the same comments about Unclaimed Territory still apply here and getting stuff countered isn't necessarily a big deal. I might regret this but I am getting lower on my basics than I tend to like so I don't want to go much further with cutting those at this time.

Mystic Reflection was mentioned in @toctheyounger's thread and I commented on it above and I think I am going to try it out. Some good arguments were made about it in my Kykar thread as well and, while those don't fully transfer here, I still want to try it.

Rise of the Dread Marn is more testing than something I think will do great things. I like the idea of it and I want to give it a chance to shine.

A quick note on Cosmic Intervention: toctheyounger also has some decent comments about the card which I do think are relevant. He ended up going away from the card and I realized I was thinking of it like a different form of Teferi's Protection. But I am not running Teferi's Protection here so I am just going to go with that first and then add in Intervention later if I feel I need it.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
Mystic Reflection was mentioned in @toctheyounger's thread and I commented on it above and I think I am going to try it out. Some good arguments were made about it in my Kykar thread as well and, while those don't fully transfer here, I still want to try it.
I actually think there's a chance it'll work really nicely here. Similar to Mirrorweave it can be used both offensively and defensively; I like the idea of stacking up a whole mess of tokens to enter, or some mass reanimation, and targeting Wayward Servant or Gray Merchant of Asphodel with it. Most likely it's game over in either case, and I'm sure there's other bits and pieces that will cause a blowout.

Totally agree with cutting Liliana, Untouched by Death, I've been tossing it up for the chop myself. Reasonable utility, but just not good enough to stay. I'm looking for space to trial Goldvein Pick and Sword of the Animist myself so that ought to give me some options.
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Totally agree with cutting Liliana, Untouched by Death, I've been tossing it up for the chop myself. Reasonable utility, but just not good enough to stay. I'm looking for space to trial Goldvein Pick and Sword of the Animist myself so that ought to give me some options.
I did notice you mention Pick in your thread so I am going to try to follow your experiences with that. I do like Sword better but having both will be interesting to see what they do. I like the idea of them; just not sure what they actually do. I don't have Sword here (yet) but I have used it in other decks to good effect.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Totally agree with cutting Liliana, Untouched by Death, I've been tossing it up for the chop myself. Reasonable utility, but just not good enough to stay. I'm looking for space to trial Goldvein Pick and Sword of the Animist myself so that ought to give me some options.
I did notice you mention Pick in your thread so I am going to try to follow your experiences with that. I do like Sword better but having both will be interesting to see what they do. I like the idea of them; just not sure what they actually do. I don't have Sword here (yet) but I have used it in other decks to good effect.
Yeah, i mean I haven't tried, either myself. I think sword could be pretty advantageous, and Pick less so, but bother offer different types of ramp at an early point in the game which is something my deck could make great use of.
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I got in a game online with this deck:

I played this against Darigaaz Reincarnated, Maelstrom Wanderer, and Kangee, Sky Warden.

I started off with 4 lands and 3 zombies in hand after a mulligan. Not a lot happened in the early game, with each player just getting down a creature or two. I ended up casting Varina on turn 4 after having 2 zombies on the field so I was able to start drawing and gaining life.

Kangee dropped in a Gravitational Shift but I still kept attacking with my 0 power zombies to trigger Varina. And then I cast an Undead Augur.

Maelstrom Wanderer was at 14 pretty quickly but then they cast Wanderer into Ilharg, the Raze-Boar and Wurmcoil Engine. Ilharg brought in Ulvenwald Hydra and they swung out at Kangee instead of me (which I though was odd). Kangee swung back at them to put them to 1 and they scooped.

Darigaaz scooped before this as well and I am not sure. I am assuming they just had to leave.

On my turn I cast Fleshbag Marauder to make them sac a creature and so I could draw a card. They sacrificed their only untapped creature but Shift was still stopping me from doing a lot. After I drew with Varina, I cast Death Baron to offset Shift a little bit.

On their turn they cast Kangee again and I countered it. Since they were at 8 life now, they just scooped it up.

This was turn 7 and I still had a Cyclonic Rift in hand to bounce their board to win so they were dead on board (more or less) even if they didn't scoop.

Not a whole lot to say about it here. The deck worked and nothing seemed out of place. Though, to be fair, I never got to any of the cards I am still thinking of cutting and most of the rest of the deck is running the way I want it.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Now with Strixhaven and Commander 21 being fully revealed, here are the cards I want to talk about for this deck. As I have been doing lately, this includes both sets together:

White Cards

Archaeomancer's Map - This allows me to get lands for land drops and potentially ramp to keep up with green decks. I am going to try it out here, and a few other decks, to see how well it actually works. It seems like it can do a lot of good work.

Devastating Mastery - I think bouncing a couple permanents, even if they are the opponent's choice, is worth a cheap wrath. And, best case scenario, I can choose someone who has nothing or, at least, very little so the player in the worst position won't often be set back by quite as much. Due to the 4 white, it is basically a guarantee that I won't cast it for its mana cost, but that is still an option. I think I actually cut another Liliana for this.

Blue Cards

Curate - A Ponder/Preordain variant that fills the yard isn't too bad, but I already don't run Ponder or Preordain. I think I would still go with those over this.

Black Cards

Callous Bloodmage - I really wish this was a zombie so I could cut Agent of Erebos for it...Not really much else to say since it isn't a zombie.

Plumb the Forbidden - Since I tend to want to be able to reanimate things en masse, and I can easily get a fair number of tokens thanks to Varina or Stairwell, I think this offers quite a bit to get my hand refilled. I am going to give this a try somewhere in the deck.

Stinging Study - If Plumb doesn't work out well, this could be a reasonable replacement. It is always 5 cards for 5 mana which is pretty good on its own. But I don't think I need a ton more draw since Varina offers a good amount (technically she filters cards instead of straight draw but that is good enough). I do like this card so if I get to needing even more draw for some reason, I might look a this a little closer. It could work out better than Tevesh Szat anyway.

Multicolor Cards

Fracture - 2 mana removal which gets rid of 3 permanent types deserves a good look. I don't really know if I need it, but I also don't have a lot of artifact/enchantment removal as it is. I think I would prefer something like Generous Gift or Unexpectedly Absent first though so I will pass on this for now.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

With the recent review, I have decided on trying the following changes:

The additions were mentioned above so there isn't much need to re-hash those reasons. As for the Cuts:

The lands are swaps for Plains to help make Map work. Tevesh Szat is mostly just a swap for Plumb and, as mentioned, I am cutting Liliana for a wrath.

Kindred Discovery is a bit of an interesting cut but I decided to go with it because I wanted to lower the curve and I don't think the effect is needed as much anymore. I might revisit this but I am curious to see what the deck can do without this particular effect.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
Kindred Discovery is a bit of an interesting cut but I decided to go with it because I wanted to lower the curve and I don't think the effect is needed as much anymore. I might revisit this but I am curious to see what the deck can do without this particular effect.
This is a bold move, I'll be interested to hear more about how this works out for you. Being honest I'd tossed it up too, recently. I'm about to get an Emry, Lurker of the Loch build going with a ton of token synergy, and it could put some work in there, so it's easy to see it dropping off in a deck that struggles for a high curve.

I'll be keeping an eye on how Plumb the Forbidden works out for you too. It's the standout from this release for me, being an instant speed scaling sac-for-draw. I actually think it's pretty excellent, and could very well double as a win condition as well as draw in the right circumstances. And as with almost every card ever, it could be bonkers with Tombstone Stairwell.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I really hate Kindred Discovery but man it's bananas in this deck, people pretty much have to have removal the turn you cast it or it's game over as you swing with 6 zmobies, draw a bajillion cards. etc. I think that's probably a mistake.

I would be far more inclined to cut one of the planeswalkers. Liliana, Death's Majesty is way, way, way worse than KD and so is Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
Kindred Discovery is a bit of an interesting cut but I decided to go with it because I wanted to lower the curve and I don't think the effect is needed as much anymore. I might revisit this but I am curious to see what the deck can do without this particular effect.
This is a bold move, I'll be interested to hear more about how this works out for you. Being honest I'd tossed it up too, recently. I'm about to get an Emry, Lurker of the Loch build going with a ton of token synergy, and it could put some work in there, so it's easy to see it dropping off in a deck that struggles for a high curve.
Oh believe me, I never approached that cut as "you know, this card just isn't that good". I know it is good and it can be insane in this deck. But in the interest in keeping my curve low, and sort of going a little bit harder into the mass reanimation with Plumb since it draws me cards and fills my yard, I am willing to give it a try. I really think the right cut was probably Teferi's Ageless Insight since it probably draws me fewer cards than Discovery, but the mana difference got it to win out for now.
I'll be keeping an eye on how Plumb the Forbidden works out for you too. It's the standout from this release for me, being an instant speed scaling sac-for-draw. I actually think it's pretty excellent, and could very well double as a win condition as well as draw in the right circumstances. And as with almost every card ever, it could be bonkers with Tombstone Stairwell.
That is my thought/hope as well :) Stairwell is really an excellent card in this deck as it is and I like leaning into it a little more with things like Plumb.
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I really hate Kindred Discovery but man it's bananas in this deck, people pretty much have to have removal the turn you cast it or it's game over as you swing with 6 zmobies, draw a bajillion cards. etc. I think that's probably a mistake.
I am about 95% sure you (and toc) are correct. But it keeps popping out to me as something to try to do without and I am curious about what it might affect.
I would be far more inclined to cut one of the planeswalkers. Liliana, Death's Majesty is way, way, way worse than KD and so is Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools
Well, I agree completely with that which is why I *did* cut those at that same time :P The only planeswalkers left are Ashiok, Dream Render and Liliana, Dreadhorde General. I got pretty close to cutting Ashiok actually but the fact that I do so much with mass reanimation, I didn't want to. And Liliana seems good for card draw and removal, even at 6 mana.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
Well, I agree completely with that which is why I *did* cut those at that same time The only planeswalkers left are Ashiok, Dream Render and Liliana, Dreadhorde General. I got pretty close to cutting Ashiok actually but the fact that I do so much with mass reanimation, I didn't want to. And Liliana seems good for card draw and removal, even at 6 mana.
lol, my habit is to look at the OP in another window when thinking about cuts, missed that you had already cut them :) I think nevinyrral stands out as the worst card next to me.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

It is really interesting you say that because when I was scrolling through my list I did pause on him and thought about it. But I basically came to the same conclusion @toctheyounger did in his thread: it works really well with Plumb and can be decent in turning him into a instant timing wrath.

Is that enough to keep Nevinyrral? No, absolutely not. But that isn't the only thing he has going for him and I think it is just another data point in his favor. Plus, I really want him to work. This might be more of me thinking that he is just a cool card and I kind of want to cast him, sac him, and get a bunch of tokens while everyone loses their board.

In the end, there is a possibility he simply isn't needed. And with the release of more wraths and existing wraths it might be best to simply bank on those instead of a creature based version. But a recurable Akroma's Vengeance seems like it should be good for this deck.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
Well, I agree completely with that which is why I *did* cut those at that same time The only planeswalkers left are Ashiok, Dream Render and Liliana, Dreadhorde General. I got pretty close to cutting Ashiok actually but the fact that I do so much with mass reanimation, I didn't want to. And Liliana seems good for card draw and removal, even at 6 mana.
lol, my habit is to look at the OP in another window when thinking about cuts, missed that you had already cut them :) I think nevinyrral stands out as the worst card next to me.
It's very much based on what the ceiling could be with Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant, and I know it's expensive to cast, but honestly, I think Nev has a pretty reliable possibility to end games on the spot. Ideally, I think you'd not be casting it but reanimating it. Even hardcasting though, the swing it could provide is pretty damn enormous.

Granted, all of this is based off of spitballing as I haven't yet had a game with it, nor any game in the last 2 months, but I think there's a really good possibility it could be very good.

Personally if we're cutting from the top end, I'd be looking at Grimgrin, Corpse-Born. And I hate to say that cause I love that big bastard. Otherwise, I'd be dropping Ashiok, Dream Render, or maaaaybe Teferi's Protection (I've found it to be more of a desperation move than a game winner).
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