Varina, Lich Queen

[WizardMN]

Haven't had a chance to use Ageless Insight yet, but I imagine it would do a solid job of filling your hand. Not sure that would be one of my cuts.

The problem I see with it (and it is a small problem to be fair) is that it doesn't work on its own. As we talk about KD this goes even further in the same direction of needing a board presence but it boils down to "it doesn't work without Varina". Sure, there are a few other draw spells it works with so it obviously isn't only working with her, but I couldn't come up with another cut and I just wanted to get things that worked on their own.

Are you folks finding Sword of the Animist to be making a big impact in your games? Am I undervaluing it here?

I won't deny that the sequence for Sword is odd in this deck. It is similar to the issues I mentioned with KD but there are situations where some of potential explosiveness can be hindered by the fact that we just don't have the mana to do more than 1 or 2 things. Our creatures are fairly small after all.

In reality, there may not be a good reason to run it, but it seems to shore up one of the weaknesses. For a data point, in one of my games yesterday I had a situation where I had Nykthos on the board with 5 Devotion to Black. This additional two mana allowed me to cast Lord of the Undead, Undead Warchief, and Zombie Apocalypse in the same turn. This allowed me to just straight up win the game. Granted, I think Apocalypse ends up winning me the game either way here, but it still allowed for a more explosive turn to just outright win. And this is only getting 2 "extra" mana. Being able to get even further ahead than that allows for even more explosive turns later in the game. I have no idea if it is needed, but being able to get ahead on mana a little is helpful.

I did get Fact or Fiction in a game and it worked out well to get me a land and Teferi's Protection (and something else) because the other cards were threatening enough to allow for this split. I also had a really good outing with Plumb the Forbidden where I sacrificed a couple Zombie tokens Varina gave me which re-filled my hand. And, of course I had a *really* bad play in a different game where I did this with Narset, Parter of Veils on the board because I wasn't paying attention. But, that was me being stupid...

I will keep trying to tweak and evaluate some of the more recent changes so I will keep providing updates on them as I get them.

[yeti1069]

For you folks who haven't been able to get games in, have you looked online? Discord has some servers for games. I've been using DroidCam to turn my phone into a webcam. Not as fun as in person, but it's allowed me to play paper magic basically nonstop through the last year.

This is my usual avenue, in all honesty. Getting into a store is just a little harder for me despite my country being relatively unscathed by the pandemic. For me the issue is more having a 1yo kid in the house. Until you're a parent you truly have no idea how blessed you are to have spare time. It's awesome in its own way, but I just don't have the time for pursuits outside of getting things done right now. I genuinely have more spare time at work.

I have a 13 week old. I get it. Tend to get in 1 or 2 games after everyone is asleep.
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[WizardMN]

I got in a game yesterday against Ayara, First of Locthwain and Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire. And, spoiler alert, I should have won but a significant misplay caused me to lose.

Things started off somewhat poorly in that I didn't have any blue mana to start with. But, I did have Archaeomancer's Map which kept me going with lands, and I did eventually draw into blue mana so I got sort of lucky. Interestingly, Map did not ramp me at all since Vaevictus missed some land drops and I had gone before Ayara, but the 2 lands were still important.

I ended up casting a Devastating Mastery right after I Mana Drained a Falkenrath Noble from Ayara. I had to counter it because their board was filled with tokens and Vaevictus and I had a couple creatures ourselves and I didn't want to get drained for so much.

So, I wrathed and dropped in Death Baron and next turn I cast varina and Diregraf Colossus to start building up my board. Vaevictus and Ayara still tried to keep me in check but I was able to weather through their onslaught on my board. What was becoming a problem was Falkenrath Noble that Ayara had gotten back and was draining me with every death.

Finally, I got a reasonable board state after casting Zombie Apocalypse which got me Varina back along with a few other creatures. I swung out to draw some cards and gain some like and then did the same again a turn later. The draws I was getting were pretty bad though. The second time, I drew nine cards and got two zombies. I discarded both and then waiting for next turn.

Due to Ayara really pressuring us, and being at 40+ life still, Vaevictus went after them and got them down to 5 life. So, on my turn I saw I had Wayward Servant in the yard with 3 other Zombies. So, I cast Patriarch's Bidding to bring everything back. This brought Ayara down to 2 life but also gave them back their Sidisi, Undead Vizier so they could tutor for something.

And me, being the stand up guy I am, let them know what was going to happen. I had a bunch of zombies, a Grimgrin, Corpse-Born for a sac outlet, and a Plague Belcher to drain them for 2 life. The problem was that I had to wait until their turn since they had Falkenrath Noble so the triggers would work where Noble's would resolve before Belcher's, leaving them at 2 life throughout the process. Doing this in their turn meant mine would resolve first.

So, they searched for a while and finally found a card. I passed the turn and, in their upkeep, they cast Sudden Spoiling Which then just lost me the game. I don't regret telling them how things would play out. I don't want to win because an opponent didn't understand the board state. And I would have won since I had enough to kill Vaevictus too.

What I do regret is getting so focused on the cool "I understand the way triggers work and I can kill you through a Noble by simply waiting for the right time" that I totally missed that I could have just killed them with Varina on my turn. See, I had 4 mana up which could create 2 zombies which then drained for 2 more to each opponent. That would have killed Ayara and I could have done the rest, still on my turn, to kill Vaevictus.

So, I had the win and the deck performed very well overall. But I just let it slip away from me because I got a bit of tunnel vision. It was a great play other than that.

Beyond that, I did get to Epiphany at the Drownyard and cast it for X=4. So, I revealed 5 cards and revealed 2 lands, Sol Ring, Grimgrin, and Teferi's Protection. I have to say that I actually kind of liked the mind games with sorting the piles for myself as it really isn't that easy. Though, in this case the choice was basically "give me Grimgrin or Protection" and I figured they wouldn't want to give me protection so I just put a land with it and then a land and Sol Ring with Grimgrin. And I was right. It was not the best but it still got me something and Sol Ring was still important.

Also, I did have Plumb the Forbidden in hand which would have done so much work (I wanted to attack with those 9 zombies and then draw a bunch off Plumb to discard a bunch of zombies) but Noble really hamstrung me in this game. Not only would I lose life from Plumb and Noble, but I also had Midnight Reaper on the board making me lose life.

Varina was enough to really save me in the life department this game so I don't really have a need for more life gain. I wouldn't mind trying to find something that adds a bit more incidental life gain though just to give me more of a buffer later in the game.

I think Map actually did pretty well. Even without the ramp, it still ensured I hit land drops which wasn't bad. I never saw Sword of the Animist or Kindred Discovery. The deck performed fine without them so that is a point against needing them in the deck. Even if I had Discovery, I don't think there was a point in the game where it would have made sense to cast. At best, I could have gotten it down only to see Vaevictus blow it up instead of a Zombie, but the mana was tight, even after Sol Ring, and I don't think it would have helped me win the game. Depending on timing, it may have actually led to a loss. At least, one that wasn't quite as much my fault The point on it above still stands that taking a turn off, or limiting the cards on board, isn't going to end well for this deck.

[Nimbaway]

Managed to get a game in with Varina as well this weekend, sadly also got mana screwed on blue during it. Which was disappointing since one of my opponents was running a mill subtheme with Syr Konrad, the Grim , but instead of putting zombies into the yard a lot of blue sources ended up going there.

Managed to get back into it thanks to Varina finally hitting the board and having Zombie Master out, but in the end I was just behind too much to stop Ghave, Guru of Spores e from setting up. Partially due to ill-timed 'removal' from one of my opponents, as his Banishing Light targeted a ready to ultimate Planeswalker while Aura Shards ards was on the field. Turning it effectively into protection from my Swampwalk for the other.

Despite fumbling on blue, Archaeomancer's Map seemed to perform nicely and a worthwhile inclusion.

The life loss on our card draw can sometimes indeed be an issue, as have ended up running into it a few times before. So might just toy around with some things in order to negate that a little in a pinch.

For my next games I'll be siding out Kindred Discovery, as so far I've not seen it hit my board that much. Sure, when it did it ended up performing nicely, but more often than not I was getting a more desired effect from a different card so Kindred Discovery ended up as discard fodder. I haven't played with Grimgrin, Corpse-Born myself, so am going to try it out.

[WizardMN]

Managed to get a game in with Varina as well this weekend, sadly also got mana screwed on blue during it. Which was disappointing since one of my opponents was running a mill subtheme with Syr Konrad, the Grim , but instead of putting zombies into the yard a lot of blue sources ended up going there.

Despite fumbling on blue, Archaeomancer's Map seemed to perform nicely and a worthwhile inclusion.

It is sometimes amazing how reliant we can be on other colors even with the major focus on Black. It is one of the reasons I have gone down on basics so much (and only put some Plains back due to adding Map) because a fair number of other cards require double of either white or blue.

The life loss on our card draw can sometimes indeed be an issue, as have ended up running into it a few times before. So might just toy around with some things in order to negate that a little in a pinch.

I would be interested to hear what you find out with this. It is something I came across in my last game. Though, to be fair, Falkenrath Noble/Blood Artist effects really hurt us more than just losing life since we are going to have creatures die and, as you said, to draw without Varina, we need those deaths to draw. Interestingly, this is where Kindred Discovery comes in, but it might not be exactly right. I would rather try to come up with some way to just gain life back somehow. The main problem is finding something. Fountain of Renewal might be a reasonable option based entirely on mana cost and the fact that it can replace itself, but it is slow.

Ivory Tower might be alright and would certainly get us more life than Fountain. But, it sort of "feels" wrong. "Just" life gain is hard to justify even at 1 mana.

I do run Vault of the Archangel but I don't think I have ever activated it so it isn't the greatest solution. It is something though and only takes a land slot.

I know this conversation sort of occurred in @toctheyounger's thread and I think I like Shadowspear or Umezawa's Jitte because they aren't just life gain. I might lean more towards Jitte because it can act as removal as well. Whip of Erebos could be good too, though I don't see myself activating the reanimation ability too often.

For my next games I'll be siding out Kindred Discovery, as so far I've not seen it hit my board that much. Sure, when it did it ended up performing nicely, but more often than not I was getting a more desired effect from a different card so Kindred Discovery ended up as discard fodder. I haven't played with Grimgrin, Corpse-Born myself, so am going to try it out.

I am glad to see my thought of cutting Discovery seems to be catching on It seems like my experiences with it aren't unique as I think the card makes sense in the deck but ultimately, due to the nature of the deck, doesn't perform as well as we really want it to. I do like Grimgrin though, again, 5 mana can be tough. But he is removal and a sac outlet and being a sac outlet can be important for things like Plague Belcher.

[toctheyounger]

Managed to get a game in with Varina as well this weekend, sadly also got mana screwed on blue during it. Which was disappointing since one of my opponents was running a mill subtheme with Syr Konrad, the Grim , but instead of putting zombies into the yard a lot of blue sources ended up going there.

Despite fumbling on blue, Archaeomancer's Map seemed to perform nicely and a worthwhile inclusion.

It is sometimes amazing how reliant we can be on other colors even with the major focus on Black. It is one of the reasons I have gone down on basics so much (and only put some Plains back due to adding Map) because a fair number of other cards require double of either white or blue.

The life loss on our card draw can sometimes indeed be an issue, as have ended up running into it a few times before. So might just toy around with some things in order to negate that a little in a pinch.

I would be interested to hear what you find out with this. It is something I came across in my last game. Though, to be fair, Falkenrath Noble/Blood Artist effects really hurt us more than just losing life since we are going to have creatures die and, as you said, to draw without Varina, we need those deaths to draw. Interestingly, this is where Kindred Discovery comes in, but it might not be exactly right. I would rather try to come up with some way to just gain life back somehow. The main problem is finding something. Fountain of Renewal might be a reasonable option based entirely on mana cost and the fact that it can replace itself, but it is slow.

Ivory Tower might be alright and would certainly get us more life than Fountain. But, it sort of "feels" wrong. "Just" life gain is hard to justify even at 1 mana.

I do run Vault of the Archangel but I don't think I have ever activated it so it isn't the greatest solution. It is something though and only takes a land slot.

I know this conversation sort of occurred in @toctheyounger's thread and I think I like Shadowspear or Umezawa's Jitte because they aren't just life gain. I might lean more towards Jitte because it can act as removal as well. Whip of Erebos could be good too, though I don't see myself activating the reanimation ability too often.

For my next games I'll be siding out Kindred Discovery, as so far I've not seen it hit my board that much. Sure, when it did it ended up performing nicely, but more often than not I was getting a more desired effect from a different card so Kindred Discovery ended up as discard fodder. I haven't played with Grimgrin, Corpse-Born myself, so am going to try it out.

I am glad to see my thought of cutting Discovery seems to be catching on It seems like my experiences with it aren't unique as I think the card makes sense in the deck but ultimately, due to the nature of the deck, doesn't perform as well as we really want it to. I do like Grimgrin though, again, 5 mana can be tough. But he is removal and a sac outlet and being a sac outlet can be important for things like Plague Belcher.

For what its worth I got some action in the other day and brought home a pretty strong win. I had a lot of play with Sword of the Animist and it was pretty strong. I had an insane start anyway with turn one Sol Ring into Talisman of Dominance into Gravecrawler so I would've been fine without it, but nonetheless it gave a lot of impetus to my game play. It gave me the opportunity to play more expansively and still hold up resources for counters and removal.

I think if I'd have drawn into it later in the game it could've been less useful, but thats what Varina is for I guess. If its not useful it hits the yard.

I ended up closing out the game with Grimgrin, Corpse-Born and Plague Belcher followed by a Patriarch's Bidding with Wayward Servant in the yard. So again, good value from the new adds, although Grimgrin isn't cheap to cast, so it's still a little questionable.

I've got Epiphany on the way from LGS, so I have more changes to make myself. Archaeomancer's Map seems like a great add too, but I'm not just not willing to spend the asking price for it right now. I'm gonna try out Land Tax because I have a spare kicking about, it should do good things.

As for further draw/life total insurance, Sphinx's Revelation? Its a lot to splash but it could be worth trialing.

[WizardMN]

Yeah, Grimgrin is still tough. There are a few 5 drops for creatures and they can definitely be powerful but it can sometimes be hard to get them on the field when it takes an entire turn or when we want to hold up countermagic or any other responses.

That sounds like a pretty awesome game though.

I agree on Map. I almost pulled the trigger the other day but I need 5 and they are still at $20. I am hoping they come down a bit more before I buy them though I am not holding out a ton of hope on that. I did see some discussions around Land Tax in your thread so I wouldn't mind hearing how that goes. They seem like they would ultimately be really good together.

I can see Revelation being decent. My main concern is how much life we would get off of it. That is, the card draw is good, but Pull from Tomorrow and maybe even Ephiphany is better (since we don't mind/actively want things in our graveyard) so the question is how much life is enough to make it "good"? I think it would have to be at least 5 and that is being generous and that is 8 mana. Which is a lot.

That is sort of why I was thinking of Jitte. Gaining 4 life (essentially) every time a creature hits seems really good. And it can easily be moved around for attacking with one creature and blocking with another to potentially gain 8+ life a turn cycle.

I think you might be right that it would be worth trying out, but I would be interested in where the line is where the life gain is enough to warrant the card and I don't think we often have the mana to spare to just sit on it just for even 3 life (and 3 cards granted; that is important too) let alone enough to make it worth it to cast.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, Grimgrin is still tough. There are a few 5 drops for creatures and they can definitely be powerful but it can sometimes be hard to get them on the field when it takes an entire turn or when we want to hold up countermagic or any other responses.

It's where my curve always hits a sticking point to be honest. I'd love a few more activated abilities that reanimate for lower costs a lá Apprentice Necromancer and Whisper, Blood Liturgist. There's Havengul Lich but that's feeding into the problem more again, and it's very costly to use.

I agree on Map. I almost pulled the trigger the other day but I need 5 and they are still at $20. I am hoping they come down a bit more before I buy them though I am not holding out a ton of hope on that. I did see some discussions around Land Tax in your thread so I wouldn't mind hearing how that goes. They seem like they would ultimately be really good together.

I don't see it dropping in price anytime soon. It's very good and probably warrants being somewhat more expensive, but personally I refuse to pay top dollar for it. I can wait for reprints or market saturation. Or just more variety in white ramp, because really, that's why it's expensive; It's easily the best of a very middling bunch of options (for quantity of lands in white anyway, white has at least a few options for utility land tutelage). As more feasible options become available in future release, it may well settle at a lower price.

I can see Revelation being decent. My main concern is how much life we would get off of it. That is, the card draw is good, but Pull from Tomorrow and maybe even Ephiphany is better (since we don't mind/actively want things in our graveyard) so the question is how much life is enough to make it "good"? I think it would have to be at least 5 and that is being generous and that is 8 mana. Which is a lot.

I'm not going to run it myself, but I recognise that life loss is a problem for a few other folks running this shell, so it's an option I guess. It could be worthwhile, but realistically, getting anything more than say 3 and 3 is going to be tough, barring any instances in which Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is active. I do like the idea of Umezawa's Jitte too, actually - I think that might be the clutch lifegain option presented thus far. Doubling as removal and not needing to hit a player is perfect, so it could do some really great work. That might be worth trialling for yourself and @Nimbaway.

[Nimbaway]

It's why I am swapping out Kindred Discovery for Grimgrin, since they have an equal mana value (still feels weird to call it that way). So for the moment its not affecting the curve and takes a double blue pip costed card out of the equation at the same time.

I don't have a Jitte in my collection, so that limits me trying it. As far as the other suggestions go, I don't want it to be a one time only life gain effect and even just gaining one life a turn feels bad. On top of it, I would like it to be on a creature so there is a potential to recur it, though most things I considered weren't Zombies and that limits the recursion a bit.

Right now, the cards I consider the most are Suture Priest , Grim Haruspex or to an extent Deathgreeter. Like I mentioned in the other thread, I've also been toying with the idea of Platinum Emperion which does have the drawback of being an unlikely hard cast and having some vulnerability with being both creature and artifact. The biggest downside is that it's something I'd only get to pull off once, after that the card is just one huge target... both to remove itself and for people to target your yard more. However, Suture Priest is my main consideration right now as it punishes other token decks and puts a nice drawback on Tombstone Stairwell for my opponents.

[WizardMN]

Suture Priest does seem like one of the better options. I know I wouldn't run it due to not being a zombie, but it seems good.

Did you mean another card than Grim Haruspex? I am not sure how that relates to life gain? If you aren't limited to just Zombies, maybe Dread Presence could be good? Depending on your build and how much you are killing opponents' stuff (or otherwise getting to their yard), Bloodchief Ascension isn't too bad. I am not sure it really fits but it is something. And getting to the 3 counters should be fairly easy. It doesn't really work as well with Tombstone Stairwell though.

[toctheyounger]

Suture Priest does seem like one of the better options. I know I wouldn't run it due to not being a zombie, but it seems good.

Did you mean another card than Grim Haruspex? I am not sure how that relates to life gain? If you aren't limited to just Zombies, maybe Dread Presence could be good? Depending on your build and how much you are killing opponents' stuff (or otherwise getting to their yard), Bloodchief Ascension isn't too bad. I am not sure it really fits but it is something. And getting to the 3 counters should be fairly easy. It doesn't really work as well with Tombstone Stairwell though.

Grim Haruspex doesn't leech you to accompany the draw aspect. There's actually very few iterations of the effect without the life loss. Liliana, Dreadhorde General is the only other I can think of.

[WizardMN]

Oh, gotcha. I was thinking of gaining life, not simply mitigating the life loss. In that case, it is certainly a viable option for card draw. Depending on how much difference one feels there is between draw and filtering, Gate to the Afterlife could be an option?

Otherwise, Liliana, Species Specialist, or Harvester of Souls will let you draw without losing life but each has their own issues. I think I would prefer Species Specialist over Haruspex though based entirely on the fact that Specialist will trigger off tokens dying.

[Nimbaway]

Yeah, I've been considering mitigating the life loss, mostly because the other cards first need to be able to do some work to build up those life points. Generally if Varina isn't doing that then you are likely in a rough spot already in that regard. My idea behind the life gain/mitigating is to be able to sac creatures for card draw, either to bring out Lab Man or dig for a mass reanimate.

I personally lean towards having draw over filtering, as again that is already what Varina does and still would like to have cards in hand to potentially cast or lands to play.

I had Liliana in the deck before, but while she looks interesting she always felt expensive to cast and in my meta Planeswalkers tend to be highly targeted. Species Specialist certainly is something to consider, as it triggering off token is a benefit for sure, Dread Presence has the benefit of being removal as well, but it highly depends on having your swamps at the right time.

[yeti1069]

Are you running Gray Merchant and Wayward Servant already? I've found them + Varina to be more than enough life gain for the most part.

Unraveling Mummy seems...ok. I had Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord in my list for a little while as both life gain and recursion, but found I wasn't in a position to protect planeswalkers consistently enough to make any that weren't very high I pact or that protect themselves worth running. It's basically an alternate version of Whip of Erebos.

Otherwise, I'd probably look at Authority of the Consuls: it's cheap, gains life against most of the decks that will be problematic, and tacks on the benefit of negating haste and forcing players to hold back blockers because they can't play any for turn. Jitte looks like it suffers from the same issues that Sword of the Animist in that it's a tempo loss most of the time.

Oh, or maybe Path of Bravery.

On the Kindred Discovery front again...are you finding you frequently don't have attackers ok turn 5, or don't have zombies to play? Or is your group running a ton of enchantment removal? I'm just puzzled because I can think of very few situations where either I had Kindred, it was doing nothing for me, AND some other instant draw spell would have made a difference, OR where I had Kindred and some other spell would have been better. Just trying to understand your experience where a 1-shot 5 mana instant is better than the nonsense that is KD. I don't think I've ever played it and drawn fewer than 3 cards, other than one game where it got blown up immediately.

[WizardMN]

Yeah, I've been considering mitigating the life loss, mostly because the other cards first need to be able to do some work to build up those life points. Generally if Varina isn't doing that then you are likely in a rough spot already in that regard. My idea behind the life gain/mitigating is to be able to sac creatures for card draw, either to bring out Lab Man or dig for a mass reanimate.

I don't run LabMan but I am right there with you on the mass reanimate. I too find that I often want to dig further to get to something like Living Death so being able to do so while affordably drawing cards would be nice.

I personally lean towards having draw over filtering, as again that is already what Varina does and still would like to have cards in hand to potentially cast or lands to play.

Yeah, this is fair and I would agree with that.

I had Liliana in the deck before, but while she looks interesting she always felt expensive to cast and in my meta Planeswalkers tend to be highly targeted. Species Specialist certainly is something to consider, as it triggering off token is a benefit for sure, Dread Presence has the benefit of being removal as well, but it highly depends on having your swamps at the right time.

Also agree. Specialist seems like it is easily the best of the bunch there.

Are you running Gray Merchant and Wayward Servant already? I've found them + Varina to be more than enough life gain for the most part.

Unraveling Mummy seems...ok. I had Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord in my list for a little while as both life gain and recursion, but found I wasn't in a position to protect planeswalkers consistently enough to make any that weren't very high I pact or that protect themselves worth running. It's basically an alternate version of Whip of Erebos.

Otherwise, I'd probably look at Authority of the Consuls: it's cheap, gains life against most of the decks that will be problematic, and tacks on the benefit of negating haste and forcing players to hold back blockers because they can't play any for turn. Jitte looks like it suffers from the same issues that Sword of the Animist in that it's a tempo loss most of the time.

Oh, or maybe Path of Bravery.

I am running Gray Merchant and Wayward Servant. I am guessing Nimbaway is at least running Gray Merchant. But I agree that they should be enough. It is just that sometimes they aren't so finding another addition for possible life gain isn't a bad idea. It is also why the conversation is about "life gain +". That is, we don't want something that is solely life gain based if possible. Jitte is removal, Suture Priest is drain, Shadowspear helps deal with hexproof or indestructible creatures (more so the latter), etc. Even in Nimbaway's suggestions they are just looking for ways to eliminate some of the damage/life loss associated card draws. It isn't that the deck always gets to 0 life really quickly but providing a bit of a cushion can be helpful.

On the Kindred Discovery front again...are you finding you frequently don't have attackers ok turn 5, or don't have zombies to play? Or is your group running a ton of enchantment removal? I'm just puzzled because I can think of very few situations where either I had Kindred, it was doing nothing for me, AND some other instant draw spell would have made a difference, OR where I had Kindred and some other spell would have been better. Just trying to understand your experience where a 1-shot 5 mana instant is better than the nonsense that is KD. I don't think I've ever played it and drawn fewer than 3 cards, other than one game where it got blown up immediately.

It is interesting that Sword and Jitte are criticized due to their tempo costs when Discovery has its own tempo cost with a mana cost that is 2.5 times as high. At least Sword and Jitte can be dropped in when we have some spare mana after committing to the board whereas we don't have that luxury with Discovery. Discovery is obviously a higher power level but the discussions about curve have been about tempo and it is easier to find a place to just "randomly" cast a 2 drop (and then equip it later) than it is to find a great time to cast a 5 drop.

However, out of curiosity and based on the questions posed, I went through a few goldfishing games to illustrate some sample starts/games and how they progress and what some of the sequences are:

Test Games

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In the first game, I started with Gravecrawler, Cryptbreaker, and Dreadhorde Invasion. On turn 5, right after getting Varina down, I attacked and ended up with 2 cards in hand. This would have been a perfect start for Kindred Discovery.

In the next game I went turn 2 Talisman, turn 3 Varina, Turn 4 Bone Miser, turn 5 Graveborn Muse & Carrion Feeder, turn 6 draw a ton of cards (and lose a bunch of life), turn 7 reanimate everything I discarded.

The next game, I cast Midnight Reaper on turn 3 and Varina on Turn 4, and Bone Miser on Turn 5. On Turn 6 I cast Diregraf Captain and Umezawa's Jitte. This would have been an alright game to cast Discovery on turn 6 but with Miser I didn't really need it and I still had a full hand on turn 8 with 7 zombies on the board.

The next game I got stuck on mana a little but still got Varina on turn 4 and then Graveborn Muse on turn 5 (still with only 4 mana). I was able to play a land on turn 6 followed by another rock and then had plenty of cards in hand (at the expense of life) for the subsequent turns. Even at the best possible time here, I wasn't able to cast Discovery and then it was no longer needed.

Next game I didn't really have any creatures to start with but I had lands and a Deluge along with a Marauder so I kept. I cast Marauder on turn 3 and Varina on turn 4. I cast Sword on turn 5 and equipped it to Varina to ramp and I exiled some cards to get another zombie. On turn 6 I attacked with those 2 zombies so this was definitely a spot where Discovery would have helped. Although, I drew into Pull from Tomorrow and thanks to the ramp, I fired it off for X=8. The next turn I cast Shepherd of Rot, Wayward Servant, Gravecrawler, and Death Baron. I still only got to attack with 2 creatures though. I then cast Cryptbreaker postcombat. Next turn I swung with 7 zombies (the first time I finally had a significant number on board). This was the first time Discovery could have made an appearance without significantly affecting tempo and it seemed like it wasn't needed as I had 18 power on the board.

The next game I ramped the first two turns and got Varina on turn 3 followed by Undead Warchief and Death Baron on turn 4. I swung with one card in hand and discarded a land to keep Bone Miser in hand. Next turn I cast Bone Miser and had just enough to cast Discovery if I had it in hand. I didn't so I swung with 3 zombies to draw 3 discard 3 (again, with one card in hand). I discarded a creature, land, and artifact so I drew off Miser, got another Zombie and then got mana to activate Varina. Next turn I attacked with 7 Zombies and ended up going from 3 cards in hand to 7 total thanks to Miser. I was able to use the mana from Miser to cast an Epiphany for X=9 to refill my hand even more. I ended turn 6 with 12 cards in hand along with a Pull From Tomorrow and Plumb the Forbidden.

These are not meant to be absolutely representative of the entire argument against Discovery but this is a sample of goldfishing games just to show what could happen. As shown above, there was basically 1 game where I had a good enough start that I would have wanted to take a turn off for Discovery and that was the first game. And, in that game, my board was exceptionally weak so if I had attacked, everything would have almost certainly died by being blocked.

The third game would have been good with Discovery on turn 6 but it was not necessary and the fourth game is probably where I would have liked it the most after I finally got a significant board state and it is possible it wasn't needed even then.

These "test games" also obviously have one major flaw: they all assume I can attack with reckless abandon and that I don't have to worry about blockers or people attacking me. That is going to generally be far from the case. Granted, some of the other effects, like Bone Miser, drawing me out of tough situations also rely on that so, again, this isn't perfect. But Pull from Tomorrow, Epiphany, Graveborn Muse, and Fact or Fiction don't rely on combat. Discovery has the ability to draw when a creature enters the battlefield too which is great and is obviously a point in its favor.

But the discussion isn't around simple power level. As I started off with when I talked about Discovery, the decision I had was around necessity more than utility. That is, 5 mana, as discussed, is tough at certain points of the game and if the deck is able to function without it, why have it? I don't think the card is quite in the realm of "win-more" but my experience has been that the deck functions without it fairly well and the card is abysmal if the game is not going well. At best, in a bad situation, I can see drawing it and suiciding my team in the hopes to draw something better. And, if I am in that bad of a position, I am likely drawing 3 maybe 4 cards off it? At best anyway.

Mass card draw can potentially get us out of a bind (without risking our board to do it) when top decking it whereas Discovery works the best when we already have an established board state.

So, I don't think it is wrong to play the card. I said in the past, and I will continue reiterating, that the card makes perfect sense and this is exactly the type of deck that should have that card. But I would prefer to lower the curve and be far more aggressive and then add in some failsafe type mass draw to get back in the game if it is not going well because as well as Discovery works, I still stand by the idea that it is unneccesary.

As part of this, I do have some ideas for other cuts in the deck that I will discuss in another post. This one is far too long as it is.

[WizardMN]

While going through some of the thoughts about regarding curve and aggressiveness of the deck, along with some of @toctheyounger's thoughts on things like God-Eternal Oketra, I am thinking of trying to replace the following cards:

Kindred Discovery (I had added it in after cutting it last time with the caveat of possibly wanting to cut it again; just adding it here to be complete)
Ashiok, Dream Render
God-Eternal Oketra
God-Eternal Bontu
Mystic Reflection
Phyrexian Delver
Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant

Reflection is more that I thought I already ran Mirrorweave (which I thought I added based on some of toc's cool play with it) and I didn't add it. And I think it is better than Reflection.

I am getting increasingly frustrated when drawing Ashiok since he doesn't do as much as I would like. He helps clear the way for my Living Death effects but he dies easily and I am not entirely sure he is needed. Sure, opponents get stuff back but when I get 10 zombies back with relevant ETB triggers, it doesn't matter as much what they are getting.

The 2 Gods and Nev are almost entirely based on mana curve. Bontu, I think, has some of the same issues as Discovery where 5 mana is tough and he is a rough top deck. And he is basically replaced with Plumb the Forbidden which I like due mostly to the mana cost and the fact that it is almost impossible to counter. Oketra is the one toc cut and I think I am on board with the reasons behind it. She isn't all that explosive and our mass reanimation doesn't work with her.

Nev is one @pokken had mentioned earlier too and I am getting closer and closer to cutting him. I am not actually sure yet, but I at least wanted to add him here as a quick comment on "I think I might cut him". I did have a really cool goldfishing game where I sacrificed my board and then mass reanimated my yard with him in it and I got a ton more tokens from him.

Phyrexian Delver I am starting to realize just isn't very good. My Zombies tend to be small and, again, I tend to want to just reanimate everything en masse. There is one addition I am thinking of though that is keeping me away from being 100% on this.

Some of the additions are:

Mirrorweave
Umezawa's Jitte (see previous discussions)
Sidisi, Undead Vizier

Sidisi is the one that I think changes a few things in the deck. It is one of the better reanimation targets for Delver so I can tutor for two things. It also gives me a bit more power when reanimating everything. If she is in the yard and what I have in the yard isn't enough to just end the game, she gives me an option to find something that might work with my newfound board.

Notably, I have more "cut" options than "adds" so I still need to fill things in if I really want to cut all of this stuff. We have, unfortunately, not gotten much in the way of new zombies for nearly a year. Since June of last year, I have made a number of changes to the deck and only added two Zombies: Liliana's Standard Bearer and Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant. And the latter I am thinking of cutting. So, hopefully, (especially with two Innistrad sets coming down the line) we will get some decent Zombie additions by the end of the year. Until then, I might use these slots for testing out other cards.

[toctheyounger]

I am getting increasingly frustrated when drawing Ashiok since he doesn't do as much as I would like. He helps clear the way for my Living Death effects but he dies easily and I am not entirely sure he is needed. Sure, opponents get stuff back but when I get 10 zombies back with relevant ETB triggers, it doesn't matter as much what they are getting.

Bang on. If your reanimation spells are cast at the right time, what else comes into play by rights shouldn't really matter. If it's something you're really worried about, Withered Wretch is a pretty cheap and on-curve zombie that takes care of any really nasty stuff. I'd say this is an easy cut.

The 2 Gods and Nev are almost entirely based on mana curve. Bontu, I think, has some of the same issues as Discovery where 5 mana is tough and he is a rough top deck. And he is basically replaced with Plumb the Forbidden which I like due mostly to the mana cost and the fact that it is almost impossible to counter. Oketra is the one toc cut and I think I am on board with the reasons behind it. She isn't all that explosive and our mass reanimation doesn't work with her.

I wish I had more to contribute regarding Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant but you've definitely had more experience than I. Personally, I'm leaving the spot alone until I've settled with a ramp package I'm happy with. And if it's robust enough to manage Nev, he can stay. If not, he won't.

Phyrexian Delver I am starting to realize just isn't very good. My Zombies tend to be small and, again, I tend to want to just reanimate everything en masse. There is one addition I am thinking of though that is keeping me away from being 100% on this.

I've been thinking precisely the opposite, personally. Reanimation with no exile or sacrifice clause is pretty great, and the CMC isn't actually too bad all told. Sure, if it were available on a smaller body, I'd take it. But paying 5 for a 3/2 and, say, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed or Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant or God-Eternal Bontu isn't bad.

Mystic Reflection vs Mirrorweave: Reflection is cheap, but it's very situational. It'd be insane with Tombstone Stairwell but what isn't? I can't think of another staple in the shell that it synergises with really well. Nev, yes, but he might not stay so let's not put too much stock in that. Mirrorweave is capable of blowout win-cons just through copying tribal lords, but even copying something like Wayward Servant or Apprentice Necromancer can do some crazy stuff. On top of that, it's instant so it can be used defensively, and it takes care of problematic commanders for a turn, and without targeting so you can still nerf that Narset, Enlightened Master or Sigarda, Host of Herons. It's a slam dunk, honestly.

Sidisi is the one that I think changes a few things in the deck. It is one of the better reanimation targets for Delver so I can tutor for two things. It also gives me a bit more power when reanimating everything. If she is in the yard and what I have in the yard isn't enough to just end the game, she gives me an option to find something that might work with my newfound board.

I'd strongly recommend adding Sidisi, Undead Vizier. She's been really good for me, plays nicely with spot reanimation and mass reanimation, and just helps smooth out any speed bumps. It should be fairly obvious that she's very good, I just haven't had a time casting her she wasn't stellar. Can highly recommend. Whether it's enough of a case for keeping Phyrexian Delver I can't say for sure, but the times I've swapped her in from Apprentice Necromancer have been so, so good.

Hope that helps - I think the idea of using these slots for testing and flex slots is pretty reasonable. There's no 'must-have's that you haven't considered, so seems reasonable. I don't think there's a lot else out there for tribal stuff that one or the other of us hasn't tried, but I'm also hoping for more to come. Modern Horizons gave us some cool stuff the first time around (Undead Augur), perhaps the second edition will have more goodies.

[WizardMN]

The 2 Gods and Nev are almost entirely based on mana curve. Bontu, I think, has some of the same issues as Discovery where 5 mana is tough and he is a rough top deck. And he is basically replaced with Plumb the Forbidden which I like due mostly to the mana cost and the fact that it is almost impossible to counter. Oketra is the one toc cut and I think I am on board with the reasons behind it. She isn't all that explosive and our mass reanimation doesn't work with her.

I wish I had more to contribute regarding Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant but you've definitely had more experience than I. Personally, I'm leaving the spot alone until I've settled with a ramp package I'm happy with. And if it's robust enough to manage Nev, he can stay. If not, he won't.

Yeah, I just haven't seen him in the multitude of games I have played so it is really hard to come to an actual conclusion on him. And, even if I have seen him, I have never paid for his trigger. I really want him to be good and I really like the ability but it is becoming tougher to justify the slot.

Phyrexian Delver I am starting to realize just isn't very good. My Zombies tend to be small and, again, I tend to want to just reanimate everything en masse. There is one addition I am thinking of though that is keeping me away from being 100% on this.

I've been thinking precisely the opposite, personally. Reanimation with no exile or sacrifice clause is pretty great, and the CMC isn't actually too bad all told. Sure, if it were available on a smaller body, I'd take it. But paying 5 for a 3/2 and, say, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed or Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant or God-Eternal Bontu isn't bad.

I don't run Mikaeus and I am thinking of cutting the others so that could be part of where our opinions on the card differ. Which is fair. The card is really the best when surrounded by other high power creatures and I am getting close to cut some of the top end ones.

Hope that helps - I think the idea of using these slots for testing and flex slots is pretty reasonable. There's no 'must-have's that you haven't considered, so seems reasonable. I don't think there's a lot else out there for tribal stuff that one or the other of us hasn't tried, but I'm also hoping for more to come. Modern Horizons gave us some cool stuff the first time around (Undead Augur), perhaps the second edition will have more goodies.

A second, even if differing, opinion is always helpful And yeah, I forgot about MH2 coming out so there is a real possibility we get something there for this deck. I hope so anyway since we have gone a long time without any significant zombies being printed.

[toctheyounger]

I don't run Mikaeus and I am thinking of cutting the others so that could be part of where our opinions on the card differ. Which is fair. The card is really the best when surrounded by other high power creatures and I am getting close to cut some of the top end ones.

I can kind of see why it's not optimal...like it feels bad if you can only get a weenie on the ETB trigger, so I can see why it's not an absolute lock.

Aside from that, why no Mikaeus, the Unhallowed? Is it just the combo potential or the CMC? Cause honestly, he's so good with sweepers, sac outlets and Living Death. He just supercharges the aristocrat suite. I know he's expensive to cast, but he's worth a slot imo.

[WizardMN]

The 6 was just higher than I liked. I started off with him in the deck but last July I cut him based mostly on cost and because I lean really heavily into mass reanimation. I don't think I have ever really missed him.

I did get another game in online. One person scooped because they didn't like being targeted after dropping a turn 2 Rest in Peace and another scooped after I cast Twilight's Call to get back 5 Zombies with Noxious Ghoul being one of them.

The game was super quick though that is pretty easy when I really only had one opponent doing a lot. The second opponent to scoop was running Sisay so I spent some removal on her and then Noxious Ghoul helped kill her a second time. The one opponent who stayed was using Atraxa, Praetors' Voice to helm a Modular deck. I think RIP messed them up too and they had gone after the RIP player early on. I did a bit with Shepherd of Rot to just keep slowly eating away at life totals. Though, I only did it a few times before needing to stop as Atraxa's creatures were getting pretty big.

Luckily, Noxious Ghoul was able to wrath most things and the mass reanimation at the end got rid of all but one of their creatures, though it was a 10/10. I was able to loop Fleshbag Marauder with Unholy Grotto and Varina to get them to sac both of their remaining creatures and get them down to 7. Varina kept my life total hovering between 8 and 13 as Midnight Reaper was pinging me as well.

I had made a couple cuts that were talked about above though I didn't see any in this game. I will probably record them a little later when I am sure about them but the main one was getting rid of Kindred Discovery again.

[WizardMN]

I played a couple other games last night as well. One was against Jadzi, Oracle of Arcavios // Journey to the Oracle, Zo-Zu the Punisher, and Sram, Senior Edificer.

I really didn't get to do much in this game and Jadzi just went off. They ramped pretty hard to the point where they got Jadzi down on turn 4 and none of us were really able to keep up. I wrathed to get rid of Jadzi (they just bounced him) and then they just cast Apex Devastator the next turn to get their board established again.

Zo-zu cast Devastation which I countered. And, I believe, this may have ultimately been a mistake. I know it set us all back but it would have set Jadzi back the most. They did have two mana rocks and they did get their land drop for the turn, so they still would have been ahead on mana but it is possible that letting the Devastation resolve would have allowed Mana Crypt to kill them.

Instead, they cast Tatyova, Benthic Druid one turn into Expropriate the next. I did use Sidisi to get to Gray Merchant but I didn't have the mana to cast it that turn so I hoped to get to my nest turn to cast it since Jadzi was down to 6 life. But Tatyova gained them quite a bit of life and drew them a bunch of cards.

When they did cast Expropriate, one opponent chose Time so I just chose it as well. 2 turns in a row was basically the same as 3 in a row and I just wanted the game to end. On their first extra turn they cast Ulamog into Ulamog into Blightsteel. So, while they were able to simply win on the second extra turn (so my vote didn't actually matter) I don't think it really mattered that an opponent before me voted for time either. Sure, we would have gotten a turn but none of us had any board to contend with theirs so they still would have had two Eldrazi, Devastator, and Blightsteel. While the right choice is to vote Money, this is one of the major issues I have with Expropriate: the choice often never matters.

Anyway, the second game was a little better. I played against Erebos, God of the Dead, Drana, the Last Bloodchief, and Depala, Pilot Exemplar. Depala got a Skysovereign, Consul Flagship down on turn 3 and basically blew up my board to keep me off of everything. I finally got some board presence though not a lot. Eventually I was down to 1 card in hand and 1 creature on the field. I just ended up dropping in a Varina to filter a little and then exile a couple cards to get a zombie. This at least let me have some board presence through Skysovereign killing everything.

Drana ended up dropping in a Blood Artist which, again, messed up a lot of the math on my side. When I attacked with Varina and the token I had created I drew Wayward Servant and Grimgrin, Corpse-Born. So, I pitched those and then cast Zombie Apocalypse to kill Erebos since they were at 5 but, unfortunately, since Erebos was out, I didn't gain any life.

But at least now I had a board state with Grimgrin being the most substantial creature on the board. Unfortunately, Drana swung at me and put me to 2. So, I swung Grimgrin at them to kill their Blood Artist (back up to 9 after Varina) and then dropped in Tomstone Stairwell. Unfortunately, Drana exiled Grimgrin which meant I couldn't sac the tokens in response to them getting Blood Artist back so I didn't have to worry about my life total getting drained.

So, they got two tokens from Stairwell and swung into me while I was at 18 life. They put me down to 2 again (I couldn't block Drana since she Flies and another creature had Pro Black thanks to a Sword) and the two tokens they got were enough to kill me anyway regardless of my tokens dying.

So, again, Blood Artist came into play in a significant way and I just couldn't find a way around it. Jitte would have helped in more ways than one (namely, it would have let me kill the Artist and Drana which could have won me the game). I had Jitte in the deck but never drew it so there was a chance for it.

I also ended up with one card in hand at the end and only had 4 lands on the field with 2 mana rocks. I did quite a bit with so little, and the last card in hand was an Epiphany at the Drownyard. I would have needed two turns to make it good since I had so little mana, but it was an out for sure. And, again, Kindred Discovery would have been terrible in this game as there was never a chance to cast it due to being down on mana.

Online doesn't have Archaeomancer's Map yet so I really can't say how much that would have mattered but I am starting to think that, in addition to Sword of the Animist, I should add in Land Tax and Tithe. Tithe is already here as a replacement for Map, but I am thinking that all 3 might be the way to go. And, as pointed out in @toctheyounger's thread, this does 2 significant things for us: it helps ensure land drops *and* gives us discard fodder for Varina.

[WizardMN]

With the latest games in mind and with all the other discussions, I am going to try these changes out:

5/4/2021

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

CUTS

1 Read the Runes

1 Liliana's Standard Bearer

1 Liliana, Dreadhorde General

1 Teferi's Ageless Insight

1 Peer into the Abyss

1 Rise of the Dread Marn

1 God Eternal Oketra

1 Mystic Reflection

1 Ashiok, Dream Render

1 Dreadhorde Invasion

ADDS

1 Pull From Tomorrow

1 Fact or Fiction

1 Epiphany at the Drownyard

1 Sword of the Animist

1 Phyrexian Arena

1 Mirrorweave

1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier

1 Land Tax

1 Tithe

Approximate Total Cost:

I had mentioned a few of these changes earlier and finally decided to make the cuts. I posted about them a few weeks back so I don't really have anything more to say on them but I wanted to get them recorded so here they are. The last few games I have been playing have had the first 5 cuts/adds already done so I have gotten a fair bit of testing with them as it is.

Discovery has been discussed to death, Oketra is high on the curve, and Mirrorweave does a better job than Reflection. Ashiok was discussed above as well.

Dreadhorde Invasion is the new cut. I am really skittish about cutting Bontu, even though I did call him out above, and I still want to see if Nev ever does anything. Invasion seems like the right cut. It can't go wide like Bitterblossom can and it doesn't give me additional ETB triggers if I already control an Army. The token is nice to have but I don't think it is really powerful/useful enough to keep it here.

With that being said, I am going to throw Mikaeus back in for now as a test. I won't add him as a change to the deck as I am still wary of the cost which was the main reason he was cut but as long as I am putting in some ramp and cards to help ensure land drops, it seems like a reasonable time to try him out again as I wait for Map to get added to Online.

[WizardMN]

I played a game online earlier and got blown out by a turn 4 Jokulhaups so I just left.

I played another game online and this one went fairly well. I played against Alesha, Who Smiles at Death and another Varina, Lich Queen deck. The builds were quite a bit different.

I started the game with 6 lands and a Tombstone Stairwell. Not the best hand but I figured I would draw into something or Varina could at least filter and I was guaranteed to hit land drops. I ended up getting a Diregraf Captain on the field followed by Varina and then Undead Augur the next turn. Not exact the fastest but something.

Alesha just ramped until they got to Alesha and Dauthi Mindripper and Varina got a few zombies down. Luckily Alesha went after the other Varina deck with Mindripper first. I got a Jitte down and was able to get some counters on it for next turn in case they decided to come at me with Mindripper. They ended up casting Ruinous Ultimatum instead so I just gained 4 life off the Jitte.

I did get Bone Miser down and discarded a land to get mana to then get a zombie with Varina so my board was getting pretty scary. Luckily I drew a bunch of cards off Augur to refill my hand and one of them was Cyclonic Rift.

I dropped in a Zombie and held up Rift in case Alesha came at me with Mindripper. Which they did so I just bounced everything. Since Alesha was missing land drops, this actually set them back a decent amount since they then needed to spend their turn recasting rocks.

This also reset Varina nicely and they were in a bit of bind due to getting pinched on mana as well. But they cast Gisa and Geralf which let them start rebuilding and I had a chance to commit a little more to the board so I cast Varina leaving up mana to get two zombie tokens. Which I ended up doing. Attacking with Varina got me a Devastating Mastery in hand and I had drawn Mission Briefing for turn so I had some protection.

The other Varina was really rebuilding again as well so my next turn I decided to just go with Mission Briefing into Rift again. I preferred the tempo play here as it left my board alone and made them spend more turns rebuilding. The next Varina trigger gave me Teferi's Protection.

I did misplay slightly here. I had enough mana for Mission Briefing into Overloaded Rift into Teferi's Protection bur I had F6'd through the turn not thinking they would do anything other than rebuild and I got "got" with a Toxic Deluge. I wanted to Protection there but didn't. Varina then cast Necromancer's Covenant to exile my graveyard and since I didn't have any creatures, I couldn't get the two mana from Phyrexian Tower to cast Protection. So, my yard was gone and Varina had 7 zombies.

It was a huge deal though. Alesha was still the pain due to the Mindripper so Varina went after them and took them out of the game while also getting to 53 life thanks to lifelink and Varina's trigger. I then cast a Pull from Tomorrow for X=7 to refill my hand (it could have been 9 but I left two mana up in case of a Spell Pierce from Varina).

Next turn I was going to cast Devastating Mastery but I didn't have 4 white mana. So, I just cast Toxic Deluge for X=4 that I had drawn off Pull and then dropped in Corpse Knight, Gravecrawler, Sidisi, Undead Vizier (sacrificing Gravecrawler and getting Epiphany at the Drownyard) and then recasting Gravecrawler from the yard.

Varina cast Rooftop Storm and then emptied their hand with God-Eternal Oketra being the main creature. So, I just cast Plumb the Forbidden to sac my 3 creatures and draw 4 cards, cast Devastating Mastery and cast a few creatures to get back to having something on board.

Varina then cast Command the Dreadhorde to take my 2 creatures (Sidisi and Knight) so I just cast Teferi's Protection in response. I then dropped in Varina and swung out to draw a bunch of cards and gain some much needed life (I was at 9) and I got Winds of Abandon in hand which was basically the best removal spell since it didn't trigger their Plague Belcher. This exiled the board they built up which incidentally got rid of everything they could recur from their own yard and they were stuck with 0 cards in hand while I still had a few Zombies on board so they just scooped it up.

I was ecstatic to see Jitte there and had they not gotten rid of it, I have a feeling it would have done a lot of good work against Alesha. I am hopeful it turns out to be a relevant card.

Epiphany had let me see 5 cards and Pull let me see 7 so those seems to be working reasonably well. The pile I got off Epiphany was the smaller pile but I got what I wanted off it. Protection came through in spades here (and probably should have done even more if I hadn't passed through my turn). Nothing really felt out of place though I did get Phyrexian Arena at the end that I was afraid to cast due to being at 9 life.

Overall, it was a good game and the deck performed pretty well. I was trying to set up for a Stairwell play but it sat in hand all game due to the other Varina deck making things tough. And then of course Covenant made it not worth it to cast.

Sidisi felt a little underwhelming but that was mostly because I already had the wraths in hand that I really needed at the time. I do think I should look at Hour of Revelation as another wrath because I think they will be relevant to slow people down even more.

[toctheyounger]

Sounds like some intense game play.

I think you've done well with the cuts/adds. Dreadhorde Invasion was always pretty underwhelming to me, it's very slow. How did you end up doing with Rise of the Dread Marn? I never picked up a copy myself, but on paper it looked pretty reasonable. I just preferred to try out the superior version on a creature with Nev.

Sidisi, Undead Vizier is one you sort of need to get it right whether to cast or turf. If you've got what you need to advance your plans, you turf for reanimation later. If you don't, you find what you need. It's still invaluable, but there's a time and place I think, especially because it requires removal of itself or another creature to work out well. Still, there's nothing like a free tutor from mass reanimation or a double tutor with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed in play.

I'm interested in your opinion on board wipes and your preferences; I've looked into Hour of Revelation myself, I think it's one of the best-costed wipes in the format. But, here, www even with the cost reduction, is pretty rough. Same goes for Doomskar, Devastating Mastery and so forth. Not to mention, I'm personally a little reluctant to load up on nonland permanent board wipes, purely because I have very few ways to bring my tech back.

I'm currently trying out Black Sun's Zenith myself. Ideally I'd go for a Toxic Deluge too, but prices being what they are I'm not shelling out for it. Nonetheless, Zenith could be pretty good. With the density of lords we have there's a good chance it ends up being one-sided, it plays nicely with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, it shuffles back in on resolution which gives us at least a small chance of seeing it again as well as seeing more cards with Varina. I don't think it's perfect, but it is fairly versatile. In a way, the bb and X makes it a little awkward to cast too, but I think because our land bases are more skewed towards swamp availability it becomes a little easier to manage than springing for white, or blue/white as I had had with Supreme Verdict. I did a little deep dive on wipes that are black or black/x and there's not much out there that'll be really exceptional. Best I can see outside of Deluge and Zenith is Merciless Eviction, which, all things considered isn't all that bad, I like the modality, but probably is a little more pricey to cast than I'd ideally like.

[WizardMN]

Sounds like some intense game play.

I think you've done well with the cuts/adds. Dreadhorde Invasion was always pretty underwhelming to me, it's very slow. How did you end up doing with Rise of the Dread Marn? I never picked up a copy myself, but on paper it looked pretty reasonable. I just preferred to try out the superior version on a creature with Nev.

Agreed on Invasion. It *looks* similar to Bitterblossom but the differences are just too significant and I almost never got a token above 6 power so it could get lifelink. If it worked on any Zombie it might be alright, but it is still not that great.

I don't know if I ever cast Rise in this deck but I did in Marchesa (where I just cut it as well). I just find that I don't like things that are too reactionary *and* narrow in when the reaction makes sense. It is why I cut Standard Bearer. I think it messes things up too much when the lines just turn into "do this, this, this, and this and *then* Rise of the Dread Marn is sure to be a blowout!". I started feeling like it was taking too much setup for a bunch of tokens. It is still really cheap and it isn't like it doesn't have its uses (and I still think it might be decent in the deck) but I just felt that it wasn't needed.

Sidisi, Undead Vizier is one you sort of need to get it right whether to cast or turf. If you've got what you need to advance your plans, you turf for reanimation later. If you don't, you find what you need. It's still invaluable, but there's a time and place I think, especially because it requires removal of itself or another creature to work out well. Still, there's nothing like a free tutor from mass reanimation or a double tutor with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed in play.

Agreed and another point in favor of Mikaeus. I wasn't even sad to see her as anytime where she is "bad" means the game is likely going in my favor. Unless I am sitting on 5 mana and an empty board and I absolutely need something now. But generally even a value tutor, like I did above, isn't the worst thing.

I'm interested in your opinion on board wipes and your preferences; I've looked into Hour of Revelation myself, I think it's one of the best-costed wipes in the format. But, here, www even with the cost reduction, is pretty rough. Same goes for Doomskar, Devastating Mastery and so forth. Not to mention, I'm personally a little reluctant to load up on nonland permanent board wipes, purely because I have very few ways to bring my tech back.

I'm currently trying out Black Sun's Zenith myself. Ideally I'd go for a Toxic Deluge too, but prices being what they are I'm not shelling out for it. Nonetheless, Zenith could be pretty good. With the density of lords we have there's a good chance it ends up being one-sided, it plays nicely with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, it shuffles back in on resolution which gives us at least a small chance of seeing it again as well as seeing more cards with Varina. I don't think it's perfect, but it is fairly versatile. In a way, the bb and X makes it a little awkward to cast too, but I think because our land bases are more skewed towards swamp availability it becomes a little easier to manage than springing for white, or blue/white as I had had with Supreme Verdict. I did a little deep dive on wipes that are black or black/x and there's not much out there that'll be really exceptional. Best I can see outside of Deluge and Zenith is Merciless Eviction, which, all things considered isn't all that bad, I like the modality, but probably is a little more pricey to cast than I'd ideally like.

So, a couple of things: I actually thought I had Hour of Revelation in this deck during one of the games above. I went back and found I cut it for Nev. Hour is way better than Devastating Mastery and the 4 white mana is tough, even with some of the mana tweaking. I should go back to that.

But, I think I like both. Currently, I run Toxic Deluge (and yes, this is easily the number one option), Mastery, Cyclonic Rift, Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant, Winds of Abandon, and Living Death (sort of) to clear the board. I really think that these being cast are where most of my games are won which is why I am considering adding Hour while keeping the rest.

The fact that our ramp is also affected is definitely a concern but it is also why I like Sword of the Animist and Archaoemancer's Map. While they would be destroyed with a wipe, they can offer some more lands in the potential where a wrath occurs. And, generally, I think wrathing everyone sets us up a bit better even if we do lose some ramp. So, I am basically saying that I am "pro-wrath"

I realize it is tough to justify sometimes but I have very little effects in the way of Artifact and Enchantment destruction which I know is different for you. So I tend to just go full out with "Destroy all nonland permanents" as just a catch all.

Which suggests that the importance of these types of wraths are based on the rest of the build. I don't think you would be nearly as reliant on them as I am since you have complementary removal whereas I do not.

I think Black Sun's Zenith is reasonable, but I would probably go with Damnation over it. Supreme Verdict is good too and the uncounterable clause is relevant but if you are looking for more, I think good ol' Damnation (or Wrath of God) is more consistent and reliable than BSZ. Even if BSZ does "reset" things for Mikaeus. Assuming BSZ doesn't kill them when they have +1 counters on them as Mike won't bring them back in that case.

My one main gripe with Eviction is that if you want to use its Creature mode, you are really messing with your ability to rebuild. Now, you might not have a lot of creatures when casting it, or maybe you even have a sac outlet like Carrion Feeder, but losing even 3 or 4 zombies to it feels bad.

As an aside, based on your comment of not being able to get your tech back: I do feel this and I am not sure there is a good solution other than "don't blow your own stuff up". I have added Jitte, Sword, Arena, etc and of course already had Tombstone Stairwell, and there is no good way to get this stuff back and I am not sure anything is even worth adding so I can understand the hesitance to including things that destroy these.