Varina, Lich Queen

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
The fact that our ramp is also affected is definitely a concern but it is also why I like Sword of the Animist and Archaoemancer's Map. While they would be destroyed with a wipe, they can offer some more lands in the potential where a wrath occurs. And, generally, I think wrathing everyone sets us up a bit better even if we do lose some ramp. So, I am basically saying that I am "pro-wrath"
I can agree with this. Having Sword of the Animist, Land Tax, Archaeomancer's Map in the build give you basics in play on a regular basis, so there's definitely less of a reliance on rocks to get where we need to go. I think the further into this area the deck leans the more you can wrath with confidence.
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
I think Black Sun's Zenith is reasonable, but I would probably go with Damnation over it. Supreme Verdict is good too and the uncounterable clause is relevant but if you are looking for more, I think good ol' Damnation (or Wrath of God) is more consistent and reliable than BSZ. Even if BSZ does "reset" things for Mikaeus. Assuming BSZ doesn't kill them when they have +1 counters on them as Mike won't bring them back in that case.
I for sure agree, but again, price point is pretty high and I don't otherwise have a copy. Aside from that everything else I own is fairly questionable. I think I have Decree of Pain (which is cool but SUPER expensive to cast), Slaughter the Strong and a couple of other options, so for me BSZ is probably the best I can do right now. Supreme Verdict is great, but the color cost does hurt, and so I've just cut it to try BSZ for something a little more easily cast.

All that being said Hour of Revelation is pretty cheap to buy, and very cheap to cast even if it splashes in a way that doesn't favour us. I think it's probably worth having at least one full board wipe, too, so I might pick up a copy myself.

In terms of retrieving tech, I've run Dance of the Manse in the past, and I sort of want it back in. There's also Faith's Reward and Brought Back, Sun Titan, Sevinne's Reclamation, but I don't know that it's worth going too heavy into that area.

What made you go for Phyrexian Arena? I've actually just traded my last copy (for like 30NZD which is super good). I think it's fine, but it's very slow, and generally I'd rather have something that gives me better draw with immediacy by preference. In terms of spitballing a best in slot, as galling and annoying as the card is I think Rhystic Study is where it's at. Mystic Remora has been really great for me, so I could recommend that for you too to try out. It's best timed for a mid game cast once people have the resources to start expansion, whereas early game it can struggle, but I've found it well worth having in the list.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
In terms of retrieving tech, I've run Dance of the Manse in the past, and I sort of want it back in. There's also Faith's Reward and Brought Back, Sun Titan, Sevinne's Reclamation, but I don't know that it's worth going too heavy into that area.
I just picked up a couple Sevinne's Reclamation since I do like the card but I didn't really have anything to throw it in. Maybe this is a reasonable deck for it? It does get quite a few Zombies and can get back Map, Jitte, and Sword. Granted, the latter two have cemented a spot in the deck but they can still be reasonable. Or, in the context of ramp, it can get back 3 lands which isn't awful.

Dance of the Manse seems alright actually. What led you to cutting it? It seems reasonable to re-establish our rocks, or any equipment (assuming X is 5 or less), and Tombstone Stairwell. It also works well with Map.
What made you go for Phyrexian Arena? I've actually just traded my last copy (for like 30NZD which is super good). I think it's fine, but it's very slow, and generally I'd rather have something that gives me better draw with immediacy by preference. In terms of spitballing a best in slot, as galling and annoying as the card is I think Rhystic Study is where it's at. Mystic Remora has been really great for me, so I could recommend that for you too to try out. It's best timed for a mid game cast once people have the resources to start expansion, whereas early game it can struggle, but I've found it well worth having in the list.
@yeti1069 mentioned it so I figured I would give it a try. I added it when I was messing around with a pretty large swathe of changes and it seemed alright. I do agree that it is slow though and I don't think I have ever cast it so it can probably come back out.

Study and Remora are solid, but damn are they annoying. I should play Study since I have a couple judge foils and I never play them anywhere. This might be a deck that really wants it to help keep the hand full and would be another thing Sevinne's Reclamation and Dance could get back. I might think on this a little. Though, likely, my decision comes down to how expensive it is online so hopefully it isn't too bad.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
Dance of the Manse seems alright actually. What led you to cutting it? It seems reasonable to re-establish our rocks, or any equipment (assuming X is 5 or less), and Tombstone Stairwell. It also works well with Map.
Honestly, I think I just hadn't had a fair shake with it and wanted to try other stuff. Now I'm at the point where I'm looking at cutting a fair amount of other stuff (Smothering Tithe, Archfiend of Ifnir. Bone Miser - I don't have wheels in the build any more so they're just that much less likely to give value) from my build for lack of synergy so it might get a spot back in the build anyway. I'll see how I go, but it does seem like it could be good.
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
@yeti1069 mentioned it so I figured I would give it a try. I added it when I was messing around with a pretty large swathe of changes and it seemed alright. I do agree that it is slow though and I don't think I have ever cast it so it can probably come back out.

Study and Remora are solid, but damn are they annoying. I should play Study since I have a couple judge foils and I never play them anywhere. This might be a deck that really wants it to help keep the hand full and would be another thing Sevinne's Reclamation and Dance could get back. I might think on this a little. Though, likely, my decision comes down to how expensive it is online so hopefully it isn't too bad.
Man, jealous of those Judge promos. I'll never own one, they're just out of my price range - I'd love a copy or two, but what can you do? It's never going to see reprint to the level it'll be affordable for me, so the fish will suffice.

As far as them being annoying, I feel like it's all in how you manage your table presence. Don't be that a-hole that interjects everything with 'do you pay the 1?'. Be the guy that says, 'no dramas, you let me know if you're paying the 1, otherwise I'll presume I draw'. Keep it chill and don't be a jerk about the trigger and you're good. I've had good and bad interactions with Study, and mostly the bad are people that are getting real pushy with it.

I think Arena is a fine card, but honestly Study is where the value is. Arena may well be enough to top you off turn to turn. but Study and Remora give you the goods and then some, and that gives you the option to discard what you don't need for value via either reanimation or Zombie Infestation or Bone Miser, or both. Plus, you're forcing a certain degree of control on the board via resource denial or baiting removal.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

That is fair on the side of Dance of the Manse. I never even gave it a real consideration so at least you went a little further and tried it out.

I definitely get that Study doesn't have to be annoying. In my experience, at least in paper, it is more that I always forget about it so I basically just force people to ask "are you paying {1}". Not because they are jerks about it but because I don't otherwise remember. I probably should but when trying to sequence everything I just zone out that they still have a Study sometimes. But you are right it doesn't have to be that way and this might be a reasonable deck to give it a go in. I mean, who can get mad at something that is "just" Zombie tribal, right :)

And yeah, the price on that thing is %$#% ridiculous. I didn't realize the judge foil was so high but even the normal printings are hovering around $40. There really isn't a great reason for it either as it should be able to be reprinted more often.

So, I might try out Study in place of Arena and I might try to find a spot for Dance of the Manse just to try it out.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
That is fair on the side of Dance of the Manse. I never even gave it a real consideration so at least you went a little further and tried it out.

I definitely get that Study doesn't have to be annoying. In my experience, at least in paper, it is more that I always forget about it so I basically just force people to ask "are you paying {1}". Not because they are jerks about it but because I don't otherwise remember. I probably should but when trying to sequence everything I just zone out that they still have a Study sometimes. But you are right it doesn't have to be that way and this might be a reasonable deck to give it a go in. I mean, who can get mad at something that is "just" Zombie tribal, right :)

And yeah, the price on that thing is %$#% ridiculous. I didn't realize the judge foil was so high but even the normal printings are hovering around $40. There really isn't a great reason for it either as it should be able to be reprinted more often.

So, I might try out Study in place of Arena and I might try to find a spot for Dance of the Manse just to try it out.
Yeah it's like 70NZD, it's just waaay out of my league. I can't see meaningful reprints for it any time soon either so that price will stay out of my league more or less indefinitely most likely.

Yeah I think Study becomes a lot more irritable when it's in a deck that's hyper-competitive too, so putting it here where ostensibly it is just a zombie tribal build, it might seem a little more innocuous and less groan-inducing.

Let me know if you get any play in with Dance, I'm interested in a second opinion there.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
Let me know if you get any play in with Dance, I'm interested in a second opinion there.
I picked up both Dance and Study Online (it is only $5 online) so I will probably grind some games tomorrow. I will see if either makes an appearance and report back here. To get both added, I made the following changes:
5/4/2021
Approximate Total Cost:

I really didn't put a ton of thought into the Bontu cut. I talked about it earlier in the interest of the curve and it was at the top of the list when going through the cards so I cut it before looking through the whole list. I might add it back in later, but for testing other things, it seemed fine.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I got another game in this morning and I saw pretty much every new card I added since I saw pretty much every card in my deck :P

I played against Krark, the Thumbless & Thrasios, Triton Hero partners, Kathril, Aspect Warper, and Gishath, Sun's Avatar.

I started with turn 1 Gravecrawler, turn 2 Sword of the Animist, turn 3 equip and turn 4 Noxious Ghoul. The Ghoul was important because Kathril had Hermit Druid (which they already activated once). On their turn they decided to cast Golgari Grave-Troll which was a 10/10.

By this point I had gotten 3 lands off Sword, two of which were untapped by now. Also, one of the lands I had was Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx which also became important as it allowed me to cast Varina and Agent of Erebos (exiling Kathril's yard) on the same turn. Kathril then Entombed for Zetalpa, Primal Dawn, cast Kathril, and hit me for 20 with GGT :(

I had filtered a couple cards the turn before so next turn I just swung out at Partners since that was the only way I was sure that my creatures wouldn't die. I did draw Hour of Revelation for the turn but GGT being Indestructible meant it wasn't that great. So, I drew 4 and got Toxic Deluge among them. Varina also got me back to 23 life.

At this time, Gishath also had Lurking Predators so I cast Fact or Fiction which got me Rhystic Study and Mana Crypt (the other pile was Death Baron, Cryptbreaker, and Diregraf Captain. I had pitched Grimgrin off Varina this turn as well.

So, I cast Study to trigger Predators and exile Kathril's yard again and then cast Deluge for X=10 to wrath the board and put me to 13. Gishath did end up getting Etali, Primal Storm off one of these triggers so I was able to kill that with the Deluge along with everything else.

Kathril cast Turntimber Symbiosis // Turntimber, Serpentine Wood to get Doom Whisperer and Gishath cast Xenagos. On my next turn I cast Mana Crypt because I needed the mana (I was still at 13 so it was risky) into Withered Wretch. I started eating away at graveyards (mostly Kathril) and then left up 8 mana for Twilight's Call as that was my ace in the hole due to my graveyard. At this point, I had gotten 5 lands off Sword which is what made these lines possible.

Kathril swung at me (which was expected) and put me to 7. Gishath luckily swung at Kathril since I did only have a lonely Wretch on the field and Kathril had shown to be able to just make big things out of nowhere. Since I didn't need to cast Twilight's Call, I just ate everyone's creatures with Wretch along with a couple important cards in graveyards.

On my turn I cast Wayward Servant which was huge in this situation. And I cast Sol Ring as well. Predators triggered to get them Mothra which wasn't a huge deal. I then just cast Patriarch's Bidding to get everything back and kill everything on the field except a massive token Gishath had from Quartzwood Crasher. But now I had the significant board state and no else had anything except for Gishath with Iroas and their token. This also killed Partners since I had gotten them fairly low from some early attacks. I wasn't really viewing them as a threat, but they happened to be the only player I could attack so it was just a bit of bad luck for them.

I swung at Gishath to get another land and passed the turn. Kathril was only able to cast a Rhonas the Indomitable and a Perpetual Timepiece and passed. Gishath cast a Ghalta, Primal Hunger and Runic Armasaur and passed. On their end step, I cast an Epiphany at the Drownyard for X=15 thanks to Nykthos. I split the piles into 4 cards in one and 12 in the other. They gave me the pile of 12 since the other had Zombie Apocalypse and I had Grimgrin on board to make use of it.

One of the cards was Path to Exile so I exiled the Armasaur to cut off their card draw and then attacked Gishath. I used Grimgrin to destroy the token and then I used Varina to make their creatures smaller so Grimgrin wouldn't die. I did end up sacrificing one of the attackers when I should have just sacrificed the new zombie but I sequenced it weird. Not that it mattered in the end, but it was technically wrong to do it the way I did.

Kathril was really stuck on mana and didn't draw an out (not that it mattered since I still had Twilight's Call in hand along with Teferi's Protection so I don't think they had a good way to really get rid of my board. And Nykthos would have given me enough mana for both. So, they scooped it up.

A couple of comments: Jitte didn't do anything since I didn't get it until later (and I just discarded it). Sword as huge but that was also because I was able to get it attached on turn 3 and did prevent me from casting Lord of the Undead. Rhystic Study drew me around 5 cards total and taxed 3-4 other spells so it definitely did its job.

Epiphany was massive and being able to get 12 cards in hand off it was pretty cool. Interestingly, I didn't want the pile of 4; I just sorted it that way because my opponent didn't know I didn't want it and I figured they didn't want me to have it so I was able to really refill my hand with it.

I ended the game with Hour in hand having never needed to cast it. Dance was discarded along with Jitte since I didn't need it. I am guessing that if I had cast Hour earlier, Dance would have some in handy. Noxious Ghoul was pretty much the star Zombie of the game as well and basically kept the board clear of everything.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
Epiphany was massive and being able to get 12 cards in hand off it was pretty cool. Interestingly, I didn't want the pile of 4; I just sorted it that way because my opponent didn't know I didn't want it and I figured they didn't want me to have it so I was able to really refill my hand with it.
yuss :) This is a special case but it feels like the type of thing to happen with this deck with some regularity if you're good at splitting. It's obviously not super exciting for X=4 to help hit land drops, but it does get the job done in that scenario.
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
I ended the game with Hour in hand having never needed to cast it.
I have been cutting wipes like hour from decks like this and trying to focus more on spot removal and one-sided wipes. I think I would consider cutting hour for Heliod's Intervention in this deck and see how that goes. Or possibly Angel of the Ruins I guess, although I think you are still 100% zombies. Comeuppance is another great option that does kinda similar stuff (although doesn't deal with non-creatures).

The main thing is (at least I think) once you cast Varina, you almost never want to sweep the board because you'll outpace basically anything. Other people sweeping will be annoying enough.

This deck has more resilience than most because of being able to make zombies again from the stuff that gets binned but recasting Varina at 6 8 or 10 is yuck.

I think you could probably make do with Cyclonic Rift, Living Death and Winds of Abandon as your only sweepers in this deck.

(* I also think I may have suggested Hour for this list in the first place, but hey, I can evolve ;) I wanna say it was Kykar where I suggested it though).

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
Epiphany was massive and being able to get 12 cards in hand off it was pretty cool. Interestingly, I didn't want the pile of 4; I just sorted it that way because my opponent didn't know I didn't want it and I figured they didn't want me to have it so I was able to really refill my hand with it.
yuss :) This is a special case but it feels like the type of thing to happen with this deck with some regularity if you're good at splitting. It's obviously not super exciting for X=4 to help hit land drops, but it does get the job done in that scenario.
I agree this was a special case but I also agree that even on X=3 or 4 can be useful to just get gas for continuing the game.
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
I ended the game with Hour in hand having never needed to cast it.
I have been cutting wipes like hour from decks like this and trying to focus more on spot removal and one-sided wipes. I think I would consider cutting hour for Heliod's Intervention in this deck and see how that goes. Or possibly Angel of the Ruins I guess, although I think you are still 100% zombies. Comeuppance is another great option that does kinda similar stuff (although doesn't deal with non-creatures).

The main thing is (at least I think) once you cast Varina, you almost never want to sweep the board because you'll outpace basically anything. Other people sweeping will be annoying enough.

This deck has more resilience than most because of being able to make zombies again from the stuff that gets binned but recasting Varina at 6 8 or 10 is yuck.

I think you could probably make do with Cyclonic Rift, Living Death and Winds of Abandon as your only sweepers in this deck.
I think my line of thinking is slightly different on the sweepers plan. I don't want to blow things up either, but I also don't care as much if I do since I have a bunch of reanimation to rebuild. And sometimes the sweeper can set up the reanimation so I can get ETB triggers.

However, I can see where that might be a reasonable line of thinking but I do think your list at the end there is maybe a little sparse for my tastes. But, I can get behind your, and toc's thoughts, regarding not wanting the things on our board blown up and I don't risk anything by trying things out (the great thing about playing online). So, I will cut Nev and Hour for Intervention and something else. I don't really know what else I want to add so I might just throw in Smothering Tithe for the time being.

On a side note, I wish Wizards would get off their ass and get the rest of Commander 21 online :fuming: I really want to test out Archaeomancer's Map.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
I think my line of thinking is slightly different on the sweepers plan. I don't want to blow things up either, but I also don't care as much if I do since I have a bunch of reanimation to rebuild. And sometimes the sweeper can set up the reanimation so I can get ETB triggers.
You do have that mass reanimation subtheme for sure and that's a factor. I don't see all that many enchantments/artifacts you wanna protect either.

I do wonder though if you'd win more games with focusing on pushing damage through and pinpoint removal than the whole sweep/reanimate combo. Let people do the sweeping part for ya :)

Akroma's Will in particular seems very likely to be super lethal a lot of the times. And Comeuppance is also reverse-lethal :P
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
On a side note, I wish Wizards would get off their ass and get the rest of Commander 21 online I really want to test out Archaeomancer's Map.
I am super bummed they are so frigging expensive and non-foiled in paper. This is a card should have probably been named a little more generically and put in both white precons to get the supply up, and man I have no idea why the promo packs don't have foils but do have extended arts :P

It's probably gonna be a year plus until they do a judge promo foil or something, and right now the card is insanely expensive. I feel great to have scored one for $10 now even though that felt a bit pricy at the time.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I agree that there aren't a lot of Artifacts and Enchantments I really want to protect though the ramp package is the most important. It feels pretty bad to get Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and a Talisman only to see all that go away because I have to wrath. Usually it works out fine, but it is a setback.

That is possible and I know Akroma's Will came up in an earlier discussion and I completely forgot about it. I will put that in over Smothering Tithe for now. I agree that might make sense but my concern is always about the slower starts and how to catch back up. Committing to the board isn't likely going to make a dent when others are doing more. I just played two games (detailed in the next post) and I didn't get more than 3 creatures on board in either game.

I get the idea of Comeuppance and it isn't necessarily bad, but I have had situations with it in Marchesa where it just doesn't kill stuff. And enough creatures never attack (and don't need to) because their static/activated/triggered abilities are the problem.

Agreed entirely on the foil aspect. I was really surprised when I was buying C21 cards that I could get extended art but not foils. Seems dumb. Though, considering what some of the cards are at, I can't imagine what they would be for foil.

With as much as they have been doing with special printings, I have been a little more patient on certain things. As I mentioned in Volrath, I cut a few cards due to cost because they can easily be reprinted somewhere.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I played a couple more games online. The first was against Edgar Markov and I really needed a wrath and just couldn't get to it. Epiphany made a showing but everything was far too slow for the onslaught of Vampires. Interestingly, they lost to Child of Alara because Child used Living Death which actually left Child at 1 life but with a pretty massive board and Edgar had nothing so they scooped.

The next game was a bit better. It was against Codie, Vociferous Codex, Purphoros, God of the Forge, and Golos, Tireless Pilgrim.

I had a really slow hand but I already mulliganed twice and this had 4 lands in hand so I kept it. I didn't have black mana but I did draw into it. I cast Varina on turn 4 and swung into Golos's Chandra. Codie finished her off. Purphoros started with Sulfuric Vortex and ended up getting Norin in play. I did have to Swords their Krenko, Mob Boss. I really wanted to get rid of Codie but Krenko seemed like the threat at the time.

Golos was slow playing Golos a little and ended up casting Scroll Rack the next turn. I swung at them with Varina and a token to filter my hand and then cast Rhystic Study. Codie cast Time Warp and hit Growth Spiral (luckily). I countered Time Warp.

Purphoros cast Purphoros and started pinging with Norin. Golos cast Tamiyo, Field Researcher and targeted my two creatures so they could draw cards. I swung at Tamiyo and the Codie player and filtered some more. I then cast Sidisi, Undead Vizier to get Cyclonic Rift as backup. I left enough mana open for Teferi's Protection.

Codie started their turn my casting Temporal Mastery off Miracle and then cast Mizzix's Mastery targeting Time Warp so they had two turns in a row. On their first turn they cast Brass's Bounty and Hour of Promise. Their next turn they cast Ruinous Ultimatum so I cast Protection to protect my board and Golos scooped.

They then cast Conflux to get Insurrection, Brave the Sands, Rise of the Dark Realms, Mind's Desire, and Unexpected Results. They cast Results and passed with a single Treasure available for mana.

Purph started their turn and got a few tokens on the field and put Codie down to 2. I cast Gray Merchant of Asphodel to kill them and put myself back to 24. I passed the turn and let Purph do their thing and then just cast Rift after they attacked me. I should have done it with the Purph trigger on the stack when Torbran, Thane of Red Fell entered but I had an auto-yield on the trigger. Not a big deal since I was at 20.

Either way, Rift ended the game as they scooped since I had 10 damage on board and I don't think they wanted to try to rebuild. I didn't have the game locked up but they only had 5 lands to my 8 (plus Mana Crypt) so they weren't going to be able to come back quickly. And I had Plumb the Forbidden into Patriarch's Bidding or Twilight's Call to sac everything and get Gray Merchant to trigger again if needed. I only had one zombie in the yard so even that wouldn't have killed them but it would have been close.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I got another couple games in and won both. The first was against Animar, Soul of Elements combo and it isn't even worth typing out. They had loops like Animar has and I cast Teferi's Protection to save myself. On my turn I cast Toxic Deluge (after they took a 20 minute turn) and they scooped.

The second game was a bit better. I played against Wort, the Raidmother, Galazeth Prismari, and Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty.

I kept a hand with no white mana but it had some ramp and Undead Augur. Wort ramped and so did Galazeth. And they did get a trigger off Uvilda, Dean of Perfection // Nassari, Dean of Expression which stole my Mana Crypt. This ended up working out since Imoti cast Cyclonic Rift so I got my Crypt back.

Next turn I recast everything including a Gravecrawler I drew. Wort ramped some more, including Keeper of Progenitus and Galazeth recast most of their stuff as well. On my next turn, I just cast Living Death and drew 2 cards off Augur dying and if I had 1 more mana I would have been able to recast it thanks to Unholy Grotto putting it back on top. I still put it on top to recast later. Wort scooped to this which was sort of weird since they had 7 mana in play.

Anyway, Galazeth rebuilt again and I cast Augur, Gravecrawler, Umezawa's Jitte, and equipped it. Galazeth continued to rebuild and had their general, Nassari, Sharding Sphinx, and Thopter Spy Network. Imoti got Rashmi, Eternities Crafter on the field and cast Venser, Shaper Savant to bound Nassari.

On my turn I cast Sidisi, Undead Vizier and just grabbed Cyclonic Rift to deal with Galazeth. Galazeth cast Crackle with Power which killed Sidisi and Rashmi. I was planning on casting Mission Briefing into Living Death again but Imoti ripped a Devastation Tide off the top so reset everything again. I cast Augur, Gravecrawler, my ramp, and Jitte again. Next turn I attacked Galazeth with Gravecrawler who had Jitte attached and they blocked with Galazeth. I then removed the two counters to kill Galazeth. I recast Gravecrawler and reattached Jitte. I also cast Varina and Gray Merchant of Asphodel thanks to Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and drained for 6.

Galazeth scooped at 34 life and a ton of mana available. I think they had 4 cards in hand so it seemed premature.

Unfortunately, Imoti was missing land drops so the remainder of the game wasn't much of one. Though, they had some cool plays. They cast Diluvian Primordial to recast my Living Death which killed everything but brought back Sidisi. I sacrificed her to herself to get Zombie Apocalypse and cast that on my turn. This drained for some more with Gray Merchant and let me tutor again (sacrificing Gravecrawler) to get Twilight's Call.

Next turn I attempted to cast Akroma's Will to close out the game while they were tapped out and they cast Commandeer. They had Rashmi at the time so I just swung out and they blocked Augur. They also cast Natural Reclamation before that to get rid of Jitte and didn't get much off Rashmi or Cascade.

My attack still brought them down to 11 life. On their turn they were able to cast Imoti which got them Crashing Footfalls and was able to get them a decent sized army. But I just exiled cards with Varina to get more Zombies and then on my next turn I drew Vengeful Dead and attacked. This brought them to 2 with four triggers from Dead which killed them. I ended the game with Rift, Deluge, Protection, and Twilight's Call in hand. I also had Swords to Plowshares which I maybe should have cast on Rashmi much earlier but I never felt that I needed to so I hung onto it just in case. And Plumb the Forbidden was there to help refill if necessary.

Overall, a reasonable game but the other two players scooping made things far easier than they should have been. I appreciate the Imoti player for sticking it out and giving it a try, but they were just too far behind when it got to 1v1.

I did see Dance of the Manse but I discarded it to an earlier Varina trigger in favor of keeping my board control. Jitte offered a nice play, but ultimately didn't do a lot. Mission Briefing ended up being discarded but it offered a nice line with recasting Living Death (which I ended up not needing to take). Akroma's Will almost got me the win but was stopped at the last minute.

Overall, the deck is playing nicely. I did see Mikaeus, the Unhallowed as well but pitched him during one of Varina's triggers since I didn't need him. At this point, I can see where Dance, Jitte, and Mikaeus might not be good enough/needed. I hate to lump Mikaeus in there because he is fantastic, but Sidisi is quickly becoming the powerhouse this deck needs. Her inclusion has been nothing short of stellar and as I think about cards I want to get off her, Mikaeus is not among them. Arguably, Grimgrin is a higher pick than him.

The past couple games have shown that Sword of the Animist isn't needed though it can still be nice. I had plenty of mana this game without it. I still haven't gotten Land Tax in a game yet, but I think I like that over Sword. Which means that might be another potential slot to cut somewhere along the line.

I say this with a word of caution though since this last game had two people scoop early and the one before was just Animar doing Animar things. Even the ones above wouldn't have changed any with Sword. It would have been too slow against Markov and wasn't needed in the other so there might be a chance Sword ends up being slotted out.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
The past couple games have shown that Sword of the Animist isn't needed though it can still be nice. I had plenty of mana this game without it. I still haven't gotten Land Tax in a game yet, but I think I like that over Sword. Which means that might be another potential slot to cut somewhere along the line.
I think Sword of the Animist is worse than Fellwar Stone probbly 95% of the time in this deck and I don't love the 2 cmc rocks in here either, since rushing out Varina is basically asking for her to die.

Your endgame is so absurdly powerful and mana efficient (5-8 mana sorceries basically) that I think you just want to hit your land drops and sometimes hit endgame ramp off Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, and sometimes hit a 2 cmc rock or something. And I would not be that surprised if drawing a land is better than a 2 CMC rock a high percentage of the time for you.

I'd also think about trying out Expedition Map over Sword. I know you're not a huge tutor guy but I have had super good luck with map for stuff like Nykthos or similar. Unholy Grotto might be good enough as a second target and you also have Phyrexian Tower and Vault of the Archangel.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I can get behind that. My main issue is hitting land drops *and* trying to keep up. The rocks help with that by quite a bit. I am not sure what the right decision is with that to be honest. I would love to be less reliant on rocks, and is one of the reasons I never play them in green decks, but I have a hard time believing that cutting the Signets and Talismans are the right call. Archaeomancer's Map is almost certainly the answer though....

I can try out Expedition Map over Sword. I don't mind that. I typically shy away from that particular card because I feel it is just too narrow. Even here, it is basically Nykthos #2 and it just feels weird to me to have something so specific. I don't know, but I don't mind giving it a try.

The same with the rocks. I don't mind trying it though I would likely at least want to put Arcane Signet in there. So, I can cut the four 2 mana rocks, put a new one in, and then find something else to try. I did consider revamping the mana base a little to make Terrain Generator function a bit better. I had done an overhaul to the mana base when I was trying to get Hour of Revelation to work the first time around so maybe I can scale back on some of that? In that case, Map would be good to get Generator. Especially with Land Tax in here.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
I can get behind that. My main issue is hitting land drops *and* trying to keep up. The rocks help with that by quite a bit. I am not sure what the right decision is with that to be honest. I would love to be less reliant on rocks, and is one of the reasons I never play them in green decks, but I have a hard time believing that cutting the Signets and Talismans are the right call. Archaeomancer's Map is almost certainly the answer though....

I can try out Expedition Map over Sword. I don't mind that. I typically shy away from that particular card because I feel it is just too narrow. Even here, it is basically Nykthos #2 and it just feels weird to me to have something so specific. I don't know, but I don't mind giving it a try.

The same with the rocks. I don't mind trying it though I would likely at least want to put Arcane Signet in there. So, I can cut the four 2 mana rocks, put a new one in, and then find something else to try. I did consider revamping the mana base a little to make Terrain Generator function a bit better. I had done an overhaul to the mana base when I was trying to get Hour of Revelation to work the first time around so maybe I can scale back on some of that? In that case, Map would be good to get Generator. Especially with Land Tax in here.
Yeah I think I'd go slow with stuff like that for sure. I find myself mostly wanting to cut non-synergistic rocks for more on-curve plays - like, the benchmark for me as to when I play lots of 2 cmc rocks is if I want to play Unwinding Clock. The issue I have these days is that someone is often wiping my mana rocks, and I'd have rather had slightly worse ramp options like Knight of the White Orchid or Boreas Charger or even Expedition Map over things that get blown up.

A signet very often needs to live for 3 turns before it's mana positive when cast on curve--even the ones that tap for mana, you're often not double spell sequencing with them.

I'm going deep these days on Cosmic Intervention for my white decks too, but I play a lot of fetchlands.

I think what I'd say is - keep a watch for how many times you tap your signets 3 times in games.

Maybe just try expmap over sword and see how that plays. I think it's a much more reliable endgame tool for you to get Nykthos and tap it for 8 or 10 or whatever than try to get multiple triggers off sword (which needs to trigger twice to pay for itself, or have the game last 4 turns after a single trigger).

What I kept finding with sword was I basically am always scrambling to keep the game from ending or try to end the game and I never want to play 4 mana for Farseek.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

The issue with people wiping my mana sources is the exact reason I don't run mana dorks in green decks. So I certainly understand the mentality.

I have gone pretty high on fetchlands myself lately though not as high as you. Varina has 5, for example. I thought I had purchased Intervention but it looks like I never did as I was waiting for the price to come down. It is still $8 online but that isn't the worst. I might pick on up. Not entirely sure it right for this deck though.

I did make a bunch of changes and am trying some things out. I cut Jitte, Sword, and the four 2 CMC rocks and added Map, Sevinne's Reclamation, Terrain Generator, Island, Arcane Signet, Wayfarer's Bauble, Ponder, and Preordain. For the latter two, I cut Mikaeus and Bone Miser. Regardless of what @toctheyounger says, I am still not 100% on it :P And toc mentioned potentially cutting Bone Miser so I thought I might try that too.

Before I go too far: I know Bauble is not a great card but I figured I would toss it in as long as I am making the other changes anyway. It easily comes back out but I figured what the hell.

I did play a game with that configuration and just got steamrolled by Pako, Arcane Retriever & Haldan, Avid Arcanist partners. It didn't help that the other two people scooped pretty quickly. Land Tax did a ton that game but I realized I forgot to tweak the mana base further as I ran out of basics pretty quick and then Bauble did nothing and I had to just leave it on the field :cry:

I did have Reclamation in hand as well and really wanted to loop Fleshbag Marauder with it but I just couldn't get the right time to do it. But it would have been a cool play.

I did make a few other changes to the mana base and am trying another game right now. Here are all the changes I made. This includes some over the past couple days that I didn't "officially" record and Hour was added and cut during this process so it isn't listed here:

I definitely might have gone overboard on the basics, but I am sure there is a right number between what I went to and where I wasn.

Also, the game I was playing while typing this up didn't go well. Opponent got down Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge and the other two people scooped so I didn't really get anywhere. I hit all my land drops but ended the game with 1 card in hand after trying to dig for answers with Varina. I needed to discard Rhystic Study as part of that but the opponent had 15 lands on the field so it basically didn't matter.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I think your basic count looks good. I am usually about 12 in 3 color decks and you are very swampy. It's surely worth a try.

I dislike bauble a lot. Slow farseek is meh. But again I'm odd I think.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Yeah, if my count is correct, I have 16. Again, this is mostly with trying to do more with Basics. I also increased my land count from 38 to 40 which may or may not be right.

And yeah, I typically agree with you on Bauble so it will make for an easy cut later. But with everything else, I figured I would at least give it a shot because colorless has very little in the way of land ramp.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I think this is probably a 38 land deck, all told, but I've lost a lot more games missing land drops than flooding in edh.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Yeah, I figured of all of my decks, this was the safest to go up on lands due to Varina being able to turn them into something else. And I kind of hope I can leverage Terrain Generator a bit to offset any potential flooding as well. I don't think I really had a problem at 38 but I am more interested in cutting things than adding them right now so it was easier just to throw a couple lands into the mix.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I got in another couple games. The first I just got run over pretty hard by Gonti, Lord of Luxury. Tatyova, Benthic Druid and Vial Smasher the Fierce & Krark, the Thumbless partners were the other two.

I started off with a hand full of lands so I figured I would just get Varina down and start filtering. Well, I did that, but Gonti had gotten Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth online so they casty Panharmonicon into Massacre Wurm to clear the board.

I cast Varina again the next turn and they just sacrificed Wurm to Sidisi, Undead Vizier and brought it back with Makeshift Mannequin so kill her again :(

I tried to keep up from here but it was just not not happening. I had used Sevinne's Reclamation to get a fetch land back to ramp and I should have just cast it again to get that land back again to ramp but I wanted more value out of it. By the time I could do that though, Gonti had Withered Wretch and exiled my yard.

I also had Teferi's Protection but it got discarded to a Wheel of Fortune and that was basically the end. The hand I drew was pretty awful and Gonti got a new hand with all the mana at their disposal. They just ended up reanimating all my stuff and I couldn't do much about it.

It was a game where I realized I had no real outs. They only had a couple creatures so wrathing wasn't going to do much. Hour of Revelation is what I needed and I didn't have it so I took out the Bauble and put it back in. Heliod's Intervention was just not going to cut it with the way the board state was as there were far too many artifacts and enchantments.

In the second game, I played against The Ur-Dragon, Arahbo, Roar of the World (with Kaheera, the Orphanguard as a Companion), and Teneb, the Harvester.

I went first which was actually disappointing since I had Tithe in hand. But I made my land drops and cast a couple Zombies early before getting Varina down on turn 4. My opponents did work on getting rid of a few but it didn't do much and Arahbo was really going to town. They ended up swinging at me with a 10/9 Prowling Serpopard twice. The second time I blocked it but I was getting desperate for any sort of a wrath (and I really wanted Hour since they had some important artifacts and enchantments). And Hour came through! Though, to be fair, it was from Teneb :) And Ur-Dragon helped out by countering Arahbo's Heroic Intervention so the board was clear.

And, as expected, I started to run away with the game. Sure, I lost a couple zombies, but I was able to get some others on board after the wrath, and Fact or Fiction into Rhystic Study and Cyclonic Rift gave me more cards along with an answer.

Study drew me a fair few cards and taxed a few other spells. And I really just rode Grimgrin, Corpse-Born plus Gravecrawler to victory. I did have a few zombies in the yard where my Twilight's Call would have been good by Grimgrin was holding down the fort so I never needed to cast it.

At the end of the game, I cast Tombstone Stairwell to just finish off the last opponent. Grimgrin took out Ur-Dragon and Arahbo scooped (which, at the time, seemed a little early) so it was just me against Teneb, the Harvester and they were having a hard time.

In the end, Vault of the Archangel gained me some much needed life when I was at 13 (I took the turn off to do it, but Grimgrin was quite big at the time so I figured it was worth it). Tithe was good to ensure a land drop and Land Tax came in at the end (I discarded it since it wouldn't trigger). Terrain Generator also made an appearance at the end but I didn't have any basics in hand. I also realized I might be a little high on the Plains. I am at 6 but I might cut that down to 4 (to still work with Map and the two Basic fetches) and up the Swamps to 10.

But other than that, things went very well in the second game. Fact or Fiction was clutch though I was hurting for cards before that. Which, of course, is the reason FoF is here so I can't really say I need any more.

Overall, I think I am liking some of the more recent changes and lowering the reliance on rocks is welcome due to me not liking to be overly reliant on them in general anyway. I don't really have any significant changes I want to make after these two games other than slotting Hour back in.

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Post by Nimbaway » 2 years ago

For me the ramp aspect has been a bit of a limiting factor in Varina, now my local meta isn't super competitive so that has aided in my decisions to not invest in certain cards but right now I feel like I might have to make some switches. With Archaeomancer's Map and Sword of the Animist added things probably will improve a bit, but I feel more changes can be made. So pruned some of my collection to free up some budget, its been sitting in my binder too long anyways and trying to limit the amount of decks that I have a bit more.

Twilight's Call always felt a bit expensive to me at eight mana, but the instant speed option certainly is an upside. I didn't have Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in the deck yet, so looking to add those two. Land Tax is also something I'm looking to add, since Archaeomancer's Map only grabs Plains. Rhystic Study is also something I'm going to snatch up while at it, as together with Land Tax it's a hit for Dance of the Manse, which after the cut of Kindred Discovery will buff up the enchantment slots. Rift might be another pick up, but it's inclusion is more of a debate for me. It's good but trying to keep my regular playgroup in mind when adding cards like that.

Been going back and forth on my considerations for mitigating life loss and think that with the addition of Call, I'll be giving Suture Priest a little go and for the time being keep track of when I draw it and whether or I like it or Species Specialist more at that point.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
I do wonder though if you'd win more games with focusing on pushing damage through and pinpoint removal than the whole sweep/reanimate combo. Let people do the sweeping part for ya
While I don't necessarily disagree with this, it's generally my experience that there's a lot of decks out there that just wanna race to the finish line, hit whatever combo or win con they have and don't really interact. You have no idea how many games I've been the only player at the table running interaction. I actually had someone throw salt at me the other day for exiling their Gray Merchant of Asphodel when they were running a reanimator shell, despite not having a single disruption card hit play otherwise. I think people are stupid personally, but there's no arguing that if you have a combo you're winning with it is far more efficient to just run cheap counters and whatever you need to get your win con online. That being said, that's kinda the premise of cEDH, so it's a weird distinction.
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
I'd also think about trying out Expedition Map over Sword. I know you're not a huge tutor guy but I have had super good luck with map for stuff like Nykthos or similar.
My issue with this is, while Map is good, (and similarly there's no reason you couldn't run Tolaria West for similar reasons), Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx doesn't really give you the burst mana it can provide when you need it using Map. Best case scenario, you're using it early turns, and unless you've hit a couple of one-drop zombies you're producing either no mana, or 1 at best. I just don't think you can rely on it to see you through the early game, it's very much a finisher. Even adding Cabal Coffers I'd say the same - in fact, it's worse because it produces nothing without other swamps.

I can totally understand dropping Mikaeus, the Unhallowed for curve. It's solid if you can get it online, but there's no guarantees.

Regarding ramp - without having tried anything of note lately (I had a couple of games yesterday but they were up against a tempo/combo Malcolm, Keen-Eyed Navigator/Tana, the Bloodsower pirate combo deck that just went for the kill with Glint-Horn Buccaneer ASAP, so they were mostly non-starters), I think the optimal configuration of ramp is Land Tax and Archaeomancer's Map. They play into each other beatifully, and keep your grip full for filtering. I've had a little interaction with Land Tax and predictably it is pretty awesome.

Sword of the Animist I get being slow. There's a chance I end up cutting it myself if I can pick up the Map for cheap, but that's a pretty big if considering it's the card to grab right now and people want multiples of it. In the meantime, while it is slow, it's not nothing and it plays nicely with what the deck should be doing anyway, which is swinging each turn with at least one zombie.

Seems like Rhystic Study has been a pretty great add and I'll reiterate that I'm jealous. I'd slam dunk a copy in here, but a fella only has so many kidneys to sell. As far as your cantrips and filtering go, how have those been? I'm a huge fan of Fact or Fiction but I've always been a little skeptical of Preordain and such. It does make me wonder if it's worth adding The Scarab God back in, but again as I mention above it's probably not dropping early enough to give me the filtering when I need it.

I've also been tossing up adding Ashnod's Altar into the mix. Grimgrin, Corpse-Born has been fine for me, buuut....5 mana, and all the sac gives me is a beater. I'd oftentimes be much happier with burst mana to get through a wipe or whatever. Perhaps it'd be suitable to switch out a signet for it or something. I also realised I'd missed Putrid Goblin. It's nothing special per se, but dropping turn 2 is nice, and adding it in might just make the curve work a little better.

edit: Side note, looking at top deck manipulation stuff, how would we think Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin would fit here?
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
I can totally understand dropping Mikaeus, the Unhallowed for curve. It's solid if you can get it online, but there's no guarantees.
To be fair, I am on board with this being wrong, but I just don't want to be sitting with it in my hand as I try to do other things. I am not sure.
Regarding ramp - without having tried anything of note lately (I had a couple of games yesterday but they were up against a tempo/combo Malcolm, Keen-Eyed Navigator/Tana, the Bloodsower pirate combo deck that just went for the kill with Glint-Horn Buccaneer ASAP, so they were mostly non-starters), I think the optimal configuration of ramp is Land Tax and Archaeomancer's Map. They play into each other beatifully, and keep your grip full for filtering. I've had a little interaction with Land Tax and predictably it is pretty awesome.
I am pretty sure this is exactly right which is why I am so upset over Map not being online right now. I will probably still stick with Tithe either way, but I think Map and Land Tax are going to be the cornerstone of the deck's ramp package.
Seems like Rhystic Study has been a pretty great add and I'll reiterate that I'm jealous. I'd slam dunk a copy in here, but a fella only has so many kidneys to sell.
This suggestion was definitely inspired. I have never not liked seeing it and 3 mana is fairly easy to just throw down at different points in the game.
As far as your cantrips and filtering go, how have those been? I'm a huge fan of Fact or Fiction but I've always been a little skeptical of Preordain and such. It does make me wonder if it's worth adding The Scarab God back in, but again as I mention above it's probably not dropping early enough to give me the filtering when I need it.
Not really sure on these to be honest. I don't think they are needed but I just couldn't think of things to add. And since I was mostly testing how the deck functioned with cuts I figured I would just toss in some cheap cantrips for the hell of it.
I've also been tossing up adding Ashnod's Altar into the mix. Grimgrin, Corpse-Born has been fine for me, buuut....5 mana, and all the sac gives me is a beater. I'd oftentimes be much happier with burst mana to get through a wipe or whatever. Perhaps it'd be suitable to switch out a signet for it or something. I also realised I'd missed Putrid Goblin. It's nothing special per se, but dropping turn 2 is nice, and adding it in might just make the curve work a little better.
Not sure on the Altar but I generally don't do much with them due to their combo potential. I think I would prefer Phyrexian Altar though if I had to choose? The deck is pretty color intensive so colorless mana may not always be the best. Though, it does fuel an X spell pretty well.

As for the Zombie, I can see that being alright. It does work with Mikaeus and Grimgrin to go infinite if you wanted so that is something.
edit: Side note, looking at top deck manipulation stuff, how would we think Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin would fit here?
Now that is a fine idea..... I really like that actually. Card draw, more or less, along with fueling the graveyard, seems pretty useful. I am going to try it out.

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