Varina, Lich Queen

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
I am pretty sure this is exactly right which is why I am so upset over Map not being online right now. I will probably still stick with Tithe either way, but I think Map and Land Tax are going to be the cornerstone of the deck's ramp package.
Honestly, the more I think about it the more likely I am to just snap and buy the map. It would be amazing here.
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
This suggestion was definitely inspired. I have never not liked seeing it and 3 mana is fairly easy to just throw down at different points in the game.
And possibly trade for this. It's 60NZD which is pretty disgusting, but I can definitely scrape the value together for it.
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
Not sure on the Altar but I generally don't do much with them due to their combo potential. I think I would prefer Phyrexian Altar though if I had to choose? The deck is pretty color intensive so colorless mana may not always be the best. Though, it does fuel an X spell pretty well.

As for the Zombie, I can see that being alright. It does work with Mikaeus and Grimgrin to go infinite if you wanted so that is something.
Yeah, I've always been reluctant to add Phyrexian Altar purely because it is so good for the deck. It opens up a ton of combo avenues and while that's nice if you want it, I don't really. Ashnod's Altar has less of this vibe to it, and if nothing else helps with the 5 CMC hump as well as costing for our blowout spells, the mass reanimation, and Dance of the Manse (although to be fair, regarding the latter, I don't ever really want to animate my rocks if I can help it). I've got one hanging about in my folder, so if I can't end up getting a ramp package together, this might just be plan B.

Putrid Goblin isn't stellar, I'd really only add it to lower the curve. I was aware of the combo potential and I think I'd be pretty reluctant to use it in that fashion, but I guess I can always have it and not use it.
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
Now that is a fine idea..... I really like that actually. Card draw, more or less, along with fueling the graveyard, seems pretty useful. I am going to try it out.
Yeah I thought this might be nice. It's come down nicely in price too, so I'd be pretty keen to hear how it plays out if you get some testing in with it. I've got one copy but it is in use in my Dralnu, Lich Lord so I can't really shift it.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I did update my list by cutting a Preordain for Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin. I didn't get a chance to test it in this game though I had a game right before it where I had it in my opener but someone disconnected so I had to just exit and start a new game.

Anyway, I played a game against Sisay, Weatherlight Captain and Grenzo, Havoc Raiser. The other player conceded right away and Grenzo got stuck on lands so they did basically nothing. So, it was really a 1v1 game against Sisay. This was a Sisay Shrines build.

I kept a 3 lands hand with a Ponder thinking it might draw me into something but it didn't really. I cast it twice this game. Once was 2 lands on top (I shuffled) and the other was 3 lands on top (I shuffled). I cast Midnight Reaper on turn 3 and Varina on turn 4. I looted with Varina a couple times but didn't really get anything relevant.

Sisay ramped with Mana Crypt and Omen of the Hunt. But they ended up tutoring and drawing a few Shrines though not a lot. They started with Honden of Seeing Winds into Honden of Night's Reach and Honden of Cleansing Fire. So, they were draining and drawing and gaining life but they didn't really get ahead by much more. Eventually, they dropped in Sisay. but couldn't activate her right away. I was basically just going about this game with the mindset of "get to Cyclonic Rift, Heliod's Intervention, or Hour of Revelation or lose" so I just kept swinging when I could but I could not really get to anything. Sisay on the other hand was committing to the board every turn and really starting to get ahead thanks to Shrine of Boundless Growth.

Eventually, they tapped out and I just spent my entire turn trying to get to Hour. I couldn't attack thanks to Sphere of Safety (though I only had Gravecrawler and Grimgrin, Corpse-Born anyway) so I cast Fact or Fiction that I got off a Pull from Tomorrow on their turn which was cast with X=3. This got me Mission Briefing which let me cast Ponder again (this is where I saw three lands) and I drew a Living Death off it. But nothing to actually deal with their board so I passed the turn.

They did even more with the board presence and they cast Privileged Position so Intervention was no longer an out. Sisay had died earlier to a board wipe that Sisay cast so she couldn't attack so on my turn I cast Patriarch's Bidding to get all my Zombies back and draining for a little. The important pieces here were Undead Augur and Midnight Reaper. I was at 20 life when I did this. Their shrine put me to 16 and then they cast Day of Judgement. I then sacrificed my board to draw 15 cards (if I let Day of Judgment resolve, I would have died to the card draw effects) and I *still* didn't see any of my answers.

So, when my turn started, I was at 1 life, my opponent was at 34, and I was down to 37 cards in my library.

One of the cards I did see was Wayward Servant. So, I cast that and cast Zombie Apocalypse. This got back Corpse Knight and allowed me to drain the opponent for 24 life. and I went to 13, From here, I just sacrificed my zombies to further drain them with Vengeful Dead. I also had 17 black mana from Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx which would have allowed me to sac my board and cast Twilight's Call to drain for even more as necessary. Or just cast and sac Gravecrawler a bunch of times.

This was frustrating and exhilarating at the same time. Frustrating that I went through 60+ cards and didn't see any real answers (even Swords didn't come up until the last sequence that put me to 1) but exhilarating in that I was able to fight through the board Sisay was putting together even though I couldn't attack due to Sphere.

One worthwhile play to call out: I could have countered the Sphere with Mana Drain but I chose not to because I still lose to their shrines so my idea was basically to give up combat for the rest of the game and protect my inevitable Rift or Hour (or, what I thought was inevitable). It still helped protect my mass reanimation (though they never tried to counter it) so I think was ultimately the right play since I was not winning via damage most likely anyway.

Ponder was nice to have but ended up doing very little. Search for Azcanta would have been infinitely better instead so I think Search is the right call. I would like to swap Ponder with something else though I am not sure what yet. Otherwise, the card draw suite is doing very well. I mean, I did still draw 60+ cards this game so I don't think "add more card draw" would have changed anything :P

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Sensei's Divining Top I would think is likely to almost always be better than a cantrip as the first one, although it's a bit durdly.

I hesitate to suggest tutors but obviously Spellseeker is insane in this deck (getting winds or rift).

That said, I think that game did a good job of proving my point that you have multiple angles of attack and can just try to run over whatever stax effects with your alternate gameplan (drain) instead of focusing too hard on answering. Generally you have 'attack' or 'drain.'

(not having an infinite combo does mean that you can't beat infinite life + combat stax but them's the breaks :)

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I did consider Top but it always seems like the thought is "just throw in Top" and I was hoping for something a little more "organic" to the deck so to speak. I know the others aren't necessarily fitting that bill so it is a very gray line. In either case, I agree it is better than just a cantrip.

I would be fine with Spellseeker as I do like the card. But she isn't a zombie and if there is one thing I am going to adhere to it's that the creatures need to be zombies.

I think you are right though on the multiple plans of attack. Even Intervention was a reasonable card for a lot of the game so it is growing on me for sure. Though, I am wondering if I should move back to Cleansing Nova? I can use it to wrath creatures in a pinch, and I only have 2 Enchantments (Agent of Erebos being one so I don't care if it dies), and 3 artifacts now so clearing out everyone else's Artifacts and Enchantments for 5 mana whereas Intervention can only do 3 for that cost. And, generally, if I want to use Intervention, I want to get more than a few.

And yeah, not being able to beat that particular combination is troublesome but clearing out the stax pieces still lets me win with Varina. It isn't ideal, or even easy, but it is still an option.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I tried another couple cuts:

Dance of the Manse
Ponder
Expedition Map

And tried these instead:

Zombie Infestation
Corpse Augur
Eternal of Harsh Truths

I do want to note that I don't really like either the Eternal or Infestation. I saw @toctheyounger had Infestation and I was just trying an incremental draw effect and Eternal is basically the only one that exists on a Zombie. Realistically, Phyrexian Arena is far better but I wanted to see if playing it on a creature would matter. Corpse Augur is really the main addition. As I mentioned before, I am not sure how much more card draw I absolutely need but I wanted to make some cuts and couldn't think of what I wanted to add. Infestation sort of makes sense if I can draw a ton of cards, but I am, again, not really sure that is where I want to be.

As for the cuts, Dance only gets me 6 cards and I really only care about Rhystic Study or Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin. I don't think the 3 rocks matter, and I can get Agent back other ways.

Ponder was just a random add as I was making cuts and doesn't really need to be here. Map is good and might still be the right card to include but I just don't like having it here. I don't really know why to be honest but it just "feels" wrong somehow. As my latest game below shows, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx was important but I also got to it without Map. So, I really don't know where I land on it.

I tried these changes in a game online which I will detail below.
Last edited by WizardMN 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I played a game online against Hamza, Guardian of Arashin, Izoni, Thousand-Eyed, and another Varina, Lich Queen deck.

I started off with Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin on turn 2 into Varina, Lich Queen on turn 4. I didn't have a turn 3 play (well, I did but didn't realize Izoni played an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth so I didn't cast my Withered Wretch). Which worked out just fine since I cast Mana Drain countering Varina's Graveborn Muse. They had 3 cards in hand so I figured this was a smart play to keep them under control.

Search was able to bin Mission Briefing to get me to a land so I was able to cast Varina off the Mana Drain mana and exile two cards to get a token. I was still struggling on mana a little since I missed the next turns land drop. I cast Rhystic Study to try to draw a few cards and Hamza cast Primal Vigor which worked out probably best for me and the other Varina player. Or, it would have worked out for me if I had enough mana to start exiling cards from my yard.

But Study drew me 2 nonland cards and Search made sure I got to a land (it was already on top) so I could hit my land drop. Izoni had cast Oubliette on my Varina so I just cast Wayward Servant and Withered Wretch with one mana open to exile something from Varina if needed. They ended up casting Winds of Abandon which got me 3 lands (super important at this time) and I didn't really lose a lot. I ate their Graveborn Muse I countered earlier.

Izoni then blew up Rhystic Study with Assassin's Trophy which was fine with me since I really just wanted lands anyway. On my turn, I played a land and cast Midnight Reaper and Graveborn Muse and passed with 3 mana up and Plumb the Forbidden in hand. Varina then attacked me with their general and I just double blocked and they killed Midnight Reaper which I was fine with. I still drew a card and Varina was gone so they couldn't make 2 zombies at a time with her (Primal Vigor was really a risky play for Hamza in this game).

Izoni then tried to destroy Varina's Plague Belcher which Varina "countered" with Lazotep Plating. Izoni, inexplicably, scooped to this. I had drawn a Tithe off Midnight Reaper dying so I cast that for Scrubland. On my turn I drew Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx though so I just swung with Varina and Graveborn Muse (since Izoni scooped, Varina phased back in) and discarded both lands I had in hand. I was going to cast Toxic Deluge for X=2 since my board wouldn't die and Varina's would. However, since I drew Mana Crypt I just decided to cast Lord of the Undead, create a token with Varina (the other Varina got rid of Primal Vigor by this point), and cast Fleshbag Marauder. I chose to sac the token so I would have a blocker. I realize the Lord was a risky play here since it pumped up *all* zombies but Varina only had 5 so I wasn't too concerned and I wanted my Nykthos to tap for a bit more.

I left up 6 mana total: 2 for Plumb and 3 (+the Azcanta) to dig with Azcanta. Varina then cast Ondu Inversion // Ondu Skyruins so I just cast Plumb to draw 4 cards. One of those cards was Fact or Fiction so I just used the 4 remaining mana for that. I had Hamza sort the piles and I had 3 zombies, Living Death, and Twilight's Call. They put the Zombies in one pile and the reanimation in the other. Which I think was right, but I obviously just took the 2 reanimation spells. The other Varina had cast Rise of the Dread Marn to get 5 zombie tokens as well.

So, on my turn I just cast Living Death to get rid of their tokens and get all my stuff back. Gray Merchant of Asphodel was in the yard as one of the first things I discarded early on so I drained both players for 16 each. I then activated Nykthos for a bunch of mana, cast Grimgrin, Corpse-Born, sacrificed Gray Merchant, and cast the other reanimation spell to get Gray Merchant back to win the game.

Search was good here. I don't think it was stellar by any stretch but it did its job, filtered through some junk, and filled the yard with a couple zombies and fodder for Varina. And, it "ramped" me to get me another land later in the game. So, while this is the first game with it, I do like it.

None of the other three changes above made an appearance until much later in the game where they were not relevant. And none of them were cast or otherwise made it onto the field. Again, I don't really think I like those cards anyway (except Corpse Augur; I think that is still reasonable), so I wasn't expecting much out of them anyway.

I do want to call out Epiphany though. I had it in hand at the end, and Nykthos would have let me cast it from quite a bit. While I didn't actually need it, I did find a few lines I was contemplating with it (until newer draws change my plans). I think this is one of the more underrated additions to the deck. Again, I won't go as far as to say it absolutely needs to be in this deck, but with the mana the deck has been able to generate lately, even without having access to Archaeomancer's Map, I think this card is pretty good in general and I have been impressed with it in nearly every scenario I wanted/needed to cast it.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I think your decision in general to just jam a few effects that let you turn mana directly into a bunch of cards as a back up to Varina was the right call. Pull/epiphany/fof seem like a much safer and reliable way to get back into the game than to play more effects that depend on you having a board or cards to draw cards (e.g. Kindred Discovery).

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Yeah, I think you are right. I think the ability to get a single mass of cards at a critical point in the game plays better both for the deck as well as for my own playstyle than something like Kindred Discovery. Interestingly, of the 3, I think Epiphany is the best and I honestly can't tell if Pull or FoF is the worst. FoF works better on less mana but Pull gets a critical mass of cards if the mana is available. If I ever had to cut one, I think it would end up being Pull based on the double blue requirement as well as the idea that it doesn't work as well when just trying to dig for lands.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
Yeah, I think you are right. I think the ability to get a single mass of cards at a critical point in the game plays better both for the deck as well as for my own playstyle than something like Kindred Discovery. Interestingly, of the 3, I think Epiphany is the best and I honestly can't tell if Pull or FoF is the worst. FoF works better on less mana but Pull gets a critical mass of cards if the mana is available. If I ever had to cut one, I think it would end up being Pull based on the double blue requirement as well as the idea that it doesn't work as well when just trying to dig for lands.
Yeah I think you're right, pull being worse at digging lands when you're behind and being vulnerable to being off blue early game combines to make it a lot worse.

Maybe Painful Truths in that slot?

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
As for the cuts, Dance only gets me 6 cards and I really only care about Rhystic Study or Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin. I don't think the 3 rocks matter, and I can get Agent back other ways.
It reanimates rocks too. Looking at your OP there's a ton it could pull back from the yard although I don't know how up to date that list is. But being able to pull back rocks is what made me consider it, purely because there's a possibility it can end up being more mana positive than the value you start with for X.

I'm personally unsure whether Zombie Infestation deserves a slot in my list anymore. If I do end up dropping mad cash on Rhystic and the new Map I'll likely just drop the discard shell of which this is a part. It can be really good, but if you're just getting creatures and there's no extra discard synergy like Archfiend of Ifnir or Bone Miser it becomes a lot worse.

I've looked at Corpse Augur myself in the past and it seems fine but not stellar. I think I've always balked at the CMC. It's probably a little less suicidal than Graveborn Muse, but Muse has been very good for me, so I just haven't looked any further at it. As far as Eternal of Harsh Truths goes, for a similar effect there's also Tomebound Lich. It's looting, not draw, but it's also ETB so potentially may be a little more abusable.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Maybe? I like the idea of it. Digging three deep early on if needed or just throwing 3 mana at it later might not be bad. But, often, I am just digging for a single card (a land, an answer, etc.) and Ponder lets me see 3 as well. Obviously different since Truths gets those 3 cards out of the way and can maybe draw more than just one card.

I will have to see. I have been kind of paying attention to how often Pull comes up and so far it has been somewhat infrequent. Not too bad to the point where it is "never" but not too often either.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
As for the cuts, Dance only gets me 6 cards and I really only care about Rhystic Study or Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin. I don't think the 3 rocks matter, and I can get Agent back other ways.
It reanimates rocks too. Looking at your OP there's a ton it could pull back from the yard although I don't know how up to date that list is. But being able to pull back rocks is what made me consider it, purely because there's a possibility it can end up being more mana positive than the value you start with for X.
Based on the latest changes, I don't actually have many rocks anymore. Just the 3 I alluded to: Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Arcane Signet.
I'm personally unsure whether Zombie Infestation deserves a slot in my list anymore. If I do end up dropping mad cash on Rhystic and the new Map I'll likely just drop the discard shell of which this is a part. It can be really good, but if you're just getting creatures and there's no extra discard synergy like Archfiend of Ifnir or Bone Miser it becomes a lot worse.
Yeah, I didn't really like it to begin with but I thought I would try it out. It is crazy cheap online so nothing was hurt by slotting it in.
I've looked at Corpse Augur myself in the past and it seems fine but not stellar. I think I've always balked at the CMC. It's probably a little less suicidal than Graveborn Muse, but Muse has been very good for me, so I just haven't looked any further at it. As far as Eternal of Harsh Truths goes, for a similar effect there's also Tomebound Lich. It's looting, not draw, but it's also ETB so potentially may be a little more abusable.
I had it in here before and cut it as well so I know I have gone back and forth on it a little. I am not sure it is correct as it gets into the weird part of the curve at 4, but I thought I would throw it in since I had it. And I looked at the Lich as well, but I was trying to stay away from more looting.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I got in another game online. This was, ultimately, against Liesa, Shroud of Dusk and Isperia, Supreme Judge. There was a Tymna the Weaver & Thrasios, Triton Hero partners deck that scooped which I will go into a little tangent on below.

Anyway, I started with Mana Crypt, Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin, Land Tax, and 4 lands. Not the best starting hand, but a great way to test out some new tech. So, turn 1 Search and pass. Next turn I saw a Patriarch's Bidding on top and I really needed something more since I still had all lands in hand. I drew Rhystic Study.

Next turn I saw Fleshbag Marauder on top and kept it. I cast it mostly to get rid of a mana dork from Partners since not much else was going on. Partners scooped it up the turn they took after this.

Next turn I just slammed Varina. Though, I sort of messed up my mana as I could have kept Crypt open which was relevant since I was about to discard a bunch of cards thanks to Land Tax. But, I messed it up and still wanted a token so I exiled the Marauder and Bidding and left another card in my yard.

Next turn I cast Death Baron and attacked Liesa who ended up blocking my token not realizing it had Deathtouch. So, Liesa died. I fully expected Varina to die in that attack but I thought it was still worth it. I ended up with the best possible outcome. Liesa was doing quite a bit to fill the board with flyers which was a problem but I was doing even more to gum up the ground, I had Varina, 3 tokens, Death Baron, Vengeful Dead, Grimgrin, Corpse-Born, Vengeful Dead (these 2 came down with the help of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx), and Wayward Servant. So, Liesa ended up having to wrath with Toxic Deluge which killed everything on my side other than Grimgrin (and I sacrificed everything to it to make it quite large).

Then they cast Witch of the Moors which made me sac Grimgrin. I did have a Swords to Plowshares in hand if I wanted to get rid of but a) I didn't really need to since I had 2 mass reanimation spells in hand at the time and b) I don't have a stop set in their main phase so I missed my chance before the trigger anyway.

In any case, I just reanimated everything on my next turn with Zombie Apocalypse (which killed their Witch) and killed of Isperia (they missed a lot of land drops) and then I activated Nykthos for 14 mana to cast Gray Merchant of Asphodel and had enough mana left over to sac my board and cast Living Death if I needed to but all the rest of my drain was plenty. I took Liesa from 30 something to -9 in one turn so that was cool.

Rhystic Study was, again, stellar. I think I drew 8 or 9 cards off of it the entire game. However, Land Tax may have been the surprising star here. In fact, there was a turn where I had 9 cards in my hand thanks to Study and the fact that I hadn't cast much the previous turn, and I decided to skip searching since I would just discard. But, I am now convinced that not searching is a mistake. Even if I search for 3 basics and then discard them it thins my deck, helps trigger Search (if needed), and provides fuel for Varina herself. I don't think I will ever skip the search off Tax again.

Search was middling, just like last game. It is hard to quantify its impact but I think it sits beneath Study and Tax for sure, while still being relevant. I never activated its ability after transforming it simply because I didn't need to. I had Hour of Revelation in hand to blow the board as needed, Mission Briefing got me to Bidding in the yard if I needed it, so I really just wanted a board presence so I used it for mana for Varina. As stated before, even the ability to ramp (even with as slow as it is) can be good enough.

This game would have been perfect for Zombie Infestation. At least, I have a hard time coming up with a reasonable scenario where it would have been better. Tax gave me plenty of discard fodder, and then I could exile them to Varina. But, I also can't see this game having gone a whole differently with Infestation. While I realize this is only a single game, I am wondering if the best games for Infestation are also the ones where it becomes less needed since the rest of our cards are enough to do everything we want. I know @toctheyounger talked about the potential of cutting it so this is just an observation in that regard. I don't know it is enough to make a conclusion off of.

Regarding card draw: Corpse Augur might be overkill and Pull from Tomorrow might make sense as something like Painful Truths, as pokken suggested, just to help out the early game a little more. I might give that a whirl to see what it does. Eternal of Harsh Truths is absolutely not necessary. While I didn't really expect anything different, it was worth a try to see what happened. And 12 cards in hand with Eternal nowhere to be seen is what happened :)

This game saw none of those cards (and I even pitched an Epiphany at one point) so I think scaling back a little on the two zombies is right and then I can tweak the Pull slot as necessary. Of course, that means I am back to needing to find some other cards to put into those slots :P
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As for the Partners player above, they went turn 1 Elves of Deep Shadow into turn 2 Necropotence. They exiled 30 cards and sculpted their best 7 among those cards. I cast Marauder the turn after since I didn't have much else to do and I figured even cutting them off 1 mana is relevant. Which, it might have been because they didn't seem to have saved a land. I have no idea what their game plan was, or how they were going to win even with 3 mana. My thought was that they were likely going for a Doomsday win but I would have figured they would save a land just to be sure.

In any case, they exiled more cards, and Liesa had attacked them, so they were at 3 life after doing basically nothing and just scooped it up. Nobody really spent any resources on them so it wasn't a huge issue but I was pretty surprised that someone joined a game that did not say "cEDH" with a cEDH deck. I did notice the generals right away but gave them the benefit of the doubt. At least they left without completely messing with the game.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
This game would have been perfect for Zombie Infestation. At least, I have a hard time coming up with a reasonable scenario where it would have been better. Tax gave me plenty of discard fodder, and then I could exile them to Varina. But, I also can't see this game having gone a whole differently with Infestation. While I realize this is only a single game, I am wondering if the best games for Infestation are also the ones where it becomes less needed since the rest of our cards are enough to do everything we want. I know @toctheyounger talked about the potential of cutting it so this is just an observation in that regard. I don't know it is enough to make a conclusion off of.
To me it's been a cutting your losses sort of card, outside of a discard suite that likely won't be in my build much longer. Someone casts Wheel of Fortune, you turf your hand for zombies and so forth. Which is fine if you need it, but otherwise it's just a little niche. Ultimately if I'm not playing Bone Miser or Archfiend of Ifnir there's really not much point in it being in the list. For myself, unless I land Alhammarret's Archive or Teferi's Ageless Insight I'm not reliably getting above hand size limit anyway, so it's not a huge loss for me.

Rant: Online games are rife with this for me. There's commonly one jerk who just wants an easy W. Usually I'll do everything I can to draw attention to them and their gameplan to level the playing field or just disarm their lines of play, but honestly it comes with the territory, you can't stop people goldfishing with S-tier builds. All you can do is try to sweep the rug out from under them.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
This game would have been perfect for Zombie Infestation. At least, I have a hard time coming up with a reasonable scenario where it would have been better. Tax gave me plenty of discard fodder, and then I could exile them to Varina. But, I also can't see this game having gone a whole differently with Infestation. While I realize this is only a single game, I am wondering if the best games for Infestation are also the ones where it becomes less needed since the rest of our cards are enough to do everything we want. I know @toctheyounger talked about the potential of cutting it so this is just an observation in that regard. I don't know it is enough to make a conclusion off of.
To me it's been a cutting your losses sort of card, outside of a discard suite that likely won't be in my build much longer. Someone casts Wheel of Fortune, you turf your hand for zombies and so forth. Which is fine if you need it, but otherwise it's just a little niche. Ultimately if I'm not playing Bone Miser or Archfiend of Ifnir there's really not much point in it being in the list. For myself, unless I land Alhammarret's Archive or Teferi's Ageless Insight I'm not reliably getting above hand size limit anyway, so it's not a huge loss for me.
Granted, I have not put its through its paces nearly as much as you have, but this seems right. I know you cut down on wheels more as well, and of course in my list with cutting twisters a long time ago, cutting Archive and Insight, and cutting Discovery, the likelihood of having a mass of cards is minimized. Obviously Pull from Tomorrow can do it (though I am considering swapping it) and Epiphany can do it, but they seem rare enough to not really matter.
Rant: Online games are rife with this for me. There's commonly one jerk who just wants an easy W. Usually I'll do everything I can to draw attention to them and their gameplan to level the playing field or just disarm their lines of play, but honestly it comes with the territory, you can't stop people goldfishing with S-tier builds. All you can do is try to sweep the rug out from under them.
Yeah, I agree. It is tough to eliminate these types of games so hopefully the other 2 players are on board with trying to excise them from the game as quickly as possible (if possible).

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Also, so I don't lose sight of some recent changes:
5/10/2021
Approximate Total Cost:

They have all been discussed to death above so no need to re-hash them here but I don't want to get too far where I forget what I added/cut. Especially since at least two of these additions likely become cuts again eventually.
Last edited by WizardMN 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

On the topic of Zombie Infestation, for me it has been stellar in several games, and in a few ways.

The biggest value has been manufacturing zombies at instant speed for effects or blocks. For example, I was in a game where an opponent cast Teferi's Protection and would have been able to win the game (can't recall if it would have been main phase or combat), and they didn't have much life. So, I ended my turn, and on their upkeep, discarded to make zombies, triggering Corpse Knight/Wayward Servant (been a while, so I don't recall which), and dealt enough to kill them. In that game, I also had Kindred Discovery out, which mean that for every 2 cards discarded, I was drawing 1, essentially turning 7 cards into 13 for 6 triggers.

In two other games (that I recall), I used ZI alongside Noxious Ghoul to wrath the board at instant speed to deal with some hasty threats.

And several times I've brought out blockers to save my bacon (or protect a planeswalker).

Obviously, with Kindred Discovery it gets that much better, and feeds into Miser and Ilfnir fantastically as well, but even without those two, I'd keep it (and I hadn't been running ti for a while). To me, its weakest impact is simply ditching cards you would have discarded at cleanup anyway, which isn't bad.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

For raw card draw, have you thought about Syphon Mind? Most games it will be a draw 3 for 4 mana with further upside of disrupting hands. Later it drops off a bit as opponents start dropping.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
For raw card draw, have you thought about Syphon Mind? Most games it will be a draw 3 for 4 mana with further upside of disrupting hands. Later it drops off a bit as opponents start dropping.
I don't know that the hand disruption is worth it to be honest. While it shouldn't be completely ignored....I am going to ignore it. My thought is that the Painful Truths option mentioned above ends up being better in raw card draw if that is what is needed. And as you mentioned, it scales pretty poorly so if I only have 2 opponents to start with or if it is getting to the end game and I only have 1 opponent, it looks pretty bad. It is certainly an option for those that don't mind it, but I don't think the discard effect is all that relevant here.


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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Those are interesting points re infestation. It's low enough to the ground to act as removal and part of the aristocrat suite. At a pinch it gives you a body to trigger Varina with too. Perhaps it's worth keeping.

I think with draw, for me at least it needs to be a couple of things:
- usable early game
- efficiently costed
- relatively unconditional
- attached to a zombie if in any way possible

There's not a lot out there that ticks all of these exceptionally well. I could see a justification for things like Sign in Blood, Night's Whisper and such, but I think it's very, very hard to challenge Rhystic Study for the top slot. It's cheap, it punches above its weight and it drops right where you want it to. In any other deck I'd recommend Necropotence too, but it'd be suicide here. Granted Study is hella expensive, and it's not going to drop in price any time soon, so I think the black cantrips are probably at least worth trialing.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I made one change:
5/17/2021
Approximate Total Cost:

I played another few games online. 1 was basically a nongame since I kept a pretty risky hand with no black mana hoping to draw into some for Painful Truths but I didn't draw a land in 4 draws. So I just scooped it up.

Another game wasn't too bad. I was playing against Riku of Two Reflections, Jadzi, Oracle of Arcavios // Journey to the Oracle, and Rionya, Fire Dancer.

Rionya started off with Humble Defector and gave it to Jadzi which I thought was a bit questionable. But they bounced it back and forth between themselves for a while. Neither I nor Riku did a lot. At one point, Rionya cast Sneak Attack and Sundial of the Infinite which they used to put in Inferno Titan, Meteor Golem, and some Dragon. Then used Sundial to keep them.

I was able to get Heliod's Intervention off a Fact or Fiction and another player blew up the Sundial. So I destroyed the Sneak Attack, Golem, and a Treasure. This ended up not mattering though since they just "stormed" off, cast Rionya, and then created 6 copies of Inferno Titan. This was basically too much for everyone and we scooped it up.

The third game was against Killian, Ink Duelist, Kangee, Sky Warden, and Ghoulcaller Gisa. Killian was extremely fast and I think really should have won this game. They went after Gisa first but left them at 10 commander damage (after one attack). Then they went after me and I couldn't block so I was at 18 commander damage right away. Then they went after Kangee every time after this but it was too late as Kangee started getting a defense. First came Cyclonic Rift and then Gisa helped out with Life's Finale (this was a big enough play that I think if they took out Gisa earlier they would have been fine). And then Kangee ended up with a bunch of blockers.

Luckily, since they decided to go after Kangee pretty heavily I was able to slowly get into the game. I had cast Midnight Reaper and Wayward Servant earlier on along with Vengeful Dead and Varina eventually. I did have to reanimate Midnight Reaper with Phyrexian Delver.

I tried to swing out a couple times to filter my cards and I had hoped one of my creatures would be blocked by Gisa so I could draw but they chose not to. Then, Kangee ended up going for an Alpha strike against Killian and Gisa and attacked me for 18 (I was at 22). I started off trying to figure out what I wanted to do and I really should have thought about it more before I started to take actions. Instead, I fired off Plumb the Forbidden which put me down to 13 thanks to the Reaper. My plan was to just kill Kangee with Patriarch's Bidding by getting everything back after sacrificing them but in the middle of me doing this I realized it made the most sense to just let them kill the other two players so I cast Rift targeting one of the tokens coming at me which then put me to 1 as they still had 12 coming at me.

On my turn, I cast Bidding and they lost 7 life, and I gained 7 life, thanks to the Servant. I then sacrificed a zombie to Sidisi, Undead Vizier to kill them with Vengeful Dead. I could have also killed them with Varina creating a zombie.

So, I almost messed up the last game but luckily figured it out before it affected things too much. I did end up casting Counterspell to counter Unquestioned Authority from Killian and then cast Mission Briefing later to get counterspell back (which, honestly, Killian should have exiled in response to the Briefing) to counter Angelic Destiny. I believe they would have attacked Kangee at the time but I didn't want to take the risk.

As mentioned, I tried relying on Painful Truths in my second game and that was a mistake. I still like the card more than Pull since I can fire it off for less mana but I still need to make good mulligan decisions. I also saw Zombie Infestation in the third game and I had to discard it. It just wasn't good at the time (I had 4 other cards in hand with Sidisi being one of them) so it again did nothing. I already mentioned I am not entirely enamored with it anyway and I do think it is on the chopping block with a few other cards. Which I will detail in another post.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

As mentioned above, I have a few cards I am still debating on keeping. Corpse Augur, for example, had a good discussion in @toctheyounger's thread so I won't rehash it here but it is a card worth looking at cutting. Right now, these are my following "flex slots":

Corpse Augur
Zombie Infestation
Eternal of Harsh Truths (I also had this in hand in the second game and I wanted to see if it could do something, but I didn't have blue mana either)
Island
Plains
Mirrorweave
Agent of Erebos

The lands are likely cut eventually to get back down to 38 lands. I don't want to cut too many basics but the second and third games saw some different mana troubles so I can't justify cutting duals and I don't really want to cut any colorless lands yet. Maybe Terrain Generator?

I talked a little about Agent in Toc's thread but I have been getting to the point where the effect is almost irrelevant. Which is weird to say when I am running so much "everyone gets their stuff back" but when I do cast those I tend to win or be close to winning and the number of dedicated graveyard decks I have been seeing are waning where it is more often a dead card or one that just doesn't do much. And I can't time it to eliminate graveyards in response to anything so it isn't always as effective as I want it to be.

Mirrorweave is not one I have touched on much but I put it here because I wanted to finally touch on it. It has yet to really give me any blowouts in the games I have played and it is sort of a sore thumb in the deck as it just doesn't really fit. There are no cards in the deck that make sense to target as a wrath (no "base" 0/0s) and even targeting my own Zombies are often irrelevant because there aren't many that do a lot once already on the field. One of the better targets is probably Midnight Reaper but that could end up killing me (though, it could kill others too). Vengeful Dead (or similar) are probably the best but then they give others a way to kill me first. I am not sure I want to keep it in the deck since I have yet to get any of the cool, effective uses out of it that toc has had in his games.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Not Mirrorweave! I get it, it is a flex spot unless you're using it as a win con or a defensive tech. It can be pretty blowout, but if you don't have scope to use it, it can also just sit in hand. Probably my favourite target is Wayward Servant. Vengeful Dead is nice, but servant has less risk of backfiring and even if it doesn't end the game it puts a massive gap between you and your opponents.

I'm cutting Agent of Erebos myself. I never want to cast it, and it's just not been necessary for me at all. If Muldrotha, the Gravetide were in my meta I'd see it differently though. I'm going to try out Binding Mummy again myself. It's nice subtle control that allows us to have favourable interactions in combat, lock down mana rocks in some instances and it's low on the curve.

I like the idea of Terrain Generator. I've not got a copy myself but I'd probably try it here. It could be useful.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

That is fair. There are certainly cards worth targeting. The thought was things worth targeting that also do something right away and turning everything into Servants doesn't really. Sure, if I get something else to enter after it works fine and if I already have it on the field with a couple other zombies, it can be pretty decent when mass reanimating things. It just seems too situational.

I know @yeti1069 mentioned Mummy above in the context of Infestation, but perhaps it is still reasonable just with Varina's ability to make zombies. I still don't like Infestation so it is hard to evaluate Mummy pretty much solely on casting zombies or activating Varina since the most common "trick" will come from creating a zombie at instant timing. If only there was another repeatable effect to create a zombie at instant timing (or if Ghoulcaller Gisa was a Zombie).

I think Generator should be useful. It is always hard to throw in a colorless land in a deck like this that requires so much colored mana. Mostly black but even things like Counterspell, Hour of Revelation, Mission Briefing, etc. that require multiple of other colors can sometimes mess with the mana. I have gotten it once and it was useful, though slow. In the game I did have it, I wasn't doing much else as it was so it worked out alright. And I ended up with a bunch of lands in hand too so that was good. I added thinking it is an innocuous form of ramp but I am keeping my eye on it to see that it does what I want it to.

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