Ephara, God of the Polis

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

Years ago I ran Haazda Shield Mate in my Ephara hatebears deck. Its an interesting option in that he gives incentive for fatties to go elsewhere and is a creature for Ephara and easy to rez with some effects like Sun Titan / Emeria, the Sky Ruin / Karmic Guide. Its also worth mentioning that he can temporarily cover for some protection post being removed assuming they remove things the same turn they attack (like a Cyclonic Rift into attack same turn assuming they don't stagger the turns with it). It doesn't target either making him fairly strong vs voltron assuming you see any of that.

No idea if that helps, just thought I would throw in some more random thoughts vs fatties. I really do love Haazda Shield Mate even if he does rarely see much play.
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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Do me a favor and try whitemane lion in that Mindcensor slot while you wait :)

Pretty sick game. I know that any game in which I am left with an unchecked blink engine (soulherder, displacer) is going to be a good game (for me). And Drake destroys most decks if you reuse it, which I love -- I muddle for it a lot :P

You also got me pumped hoping they make a judge promo alms collector some day. It's on my really want to try list. Might have to gove it a go anyway since wheels are running rampant in my meta.
Well, I picked up a Whitemane Lion and am willing to give it a shot. I don't really have anything better to do with that slot anyway :)

As for Alms Collector, I have honestly been very close to cutting it for a few reasons. I elaborate on one below but it rarely does much in my games since it isn't often that effects that cause players to draw more than 1 card actually occur.
shermanido37 wrote:
4 years ago
Alms Collector is a meta card, much like Aven Mindcensor. In fact I see all hatebears as meta cards, and listed them with my impression of them as an Ephara player here: viewtopic.php?p=48515#p48515
For example, my meta doesn't have a lot of wheels, so Alms Collector wouldn't be very useful, however there are a bunch of gradual card draw engines like Phyrexian Arena, so Spirit of the Labyrinth is very useful, and there are a lot of tutors and ramp so Aven Mindcensor will always find something to do.
I agree that hatebears are generally meta cards. As mentioned, it is rare for Alms Collector to do a lot in my meta and, arguably, the only reason it did something in the last game was due to someone using one of my decks. Twisters and Wheels are not very common here. And, well, it isn't always that fun either to win with it and a Twister. I elaborate more below.

Aven Mindcensor does have some reasonable utility against common strategies but if I don't get it down early it doesn't matter enough against ramp. Stopping them from getting their 12th land seems underwhelming. And, unless I have it in hand when they try to cast a tutor or ramp, it doesn't seem to do a lot. This is because having it on the field just makes them wait to cast their tutor (which is still a benefit) but then they blow it up and tutor anyway. I am not sure if this is really an argument against it or not, but just some thoughts on it.
I'd also like to offer my two cents on your list.

I can see that you have a bunch of big creatures with powerful effects, which is not my cup of tea but a pretty cool plan anyway. However I disagree with your specific choice of cards, as there are plenty of fatties that achieve the goals you're setting better than what you have. If you're looking to set up a board state God-Eternal Oketra is undeniable and very hard to get rid of, if you're looking to kill stuff Cavalier of Dawn is your friend, if you want to spend a lot of mana to pressure your opponents Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur is your man.
Perhaps our classification of "big creatures with powerful effects" is different, but I would disagree that I have "a bunch". At best, I seem to have 3 and that includes Gearhulk. Resolute Archangel and Angel of the Dire Hour being the other two. I am not really trying to do anything with fatties. These are here because their abilities work out really well for what I want to do.

With that being said, it isn't to say I *shouldn't* have some big fatties that do a little more. I like Oketra as she plays nicely into the creature theme. She is higher on the curve but seems like she could do well in the late game to finally close things out. Arguably though, her inclusion moves further away from the tempo aspect the deck is trying to employ.

Cavalier is one I have been looking at for this deck based on a few things. Being able to blink/flicker it just gives it even more power. Since Cavalier was suggested for Karador, I had thought of trying to make it work here, but haven't done a lot with it yet.

Jin-Gitaxias is just a straight no. Not only is 8 mana tough to justify in this deck, it is my second least favorite Praetor (Vorinclex can burn in hell). While all are one sided, these two just make the games they survive in so much worse for everyone involved. While Alms Collector does something similar in conjunction with a Twister, at least that is two cards. And, as mentioned above, that isn't all the fun to with with either. I enjoy the back and forth that occurs in games and I enjoy out-muscling or out-maneuvering opponents. It feels...."cheap" (I guess) to just land something to get rid of one of their more important resources.

It isn't a bad idea for anyone else looking to play a similar deck, but it isn't a card I ever want to put into any of my decks.
With your respectable amount of noncreatures and cards that care about them, I'd probably slot in Monastery Mentor. It's an amazing card advantage engine with Ephara that also gives you a bunch of blockers to defend from aggression. Pokken can testify to its utility.
Also, never mind that I disagree with wheel effects, but I just don't see running two of them without Smothering Tithe. It's fantastic in general and phenomenal with wheels.
From what I can tell, I have 23 noncreature spell in the deck that matter (3 don't work with Mentor) with 13 of them being spells I can cast on other players' turns. If I assume I cast none before a Mentor comes down, and I get Mentor, how many of these 23 spells will actually be cast to generate tokens?

Perhaps I am not giving the card enough credit, but it seems like a few pieces need to come together to make this really good. It also seems that Doomed Artisan is just a better version of this since I need no mana to get the token on each of my turns and the tokens end up being far larger than the 1/1s I get with Mentor.
However I do realize that the bunch of cards I suggested were pretty expensive, so I'll offer some budget alternatives:
Generous Gift is very flexible in Ephara, destroying whatever we want or saving our stuff from theft while giving us a token and a card - you could even target Ephara with it in order to just get a flash blocker and a card. I think a ton about including it.
A good option that goes well with noncreatures is an enchantment package. Stuff like Mystic Remora, Planar Collapse, Solitary Confinement (has literally won me games), and the must-include Sacred Mesa along with Hall of Heliod's Generosity. Seriously, if you only take one suggestion, it has got to be Mesa. That card is just a powerhouse.
I can also attest to the power of Whitemane Lion.
To be fair, budget is never a concern but that doesn't mean the above cards aren't any good. I like Generous Gift in other decks and the only reason it doesn't see play here is that I prefer creatures. Cavalier would go in before it. If I ever get to a point where I feel I need more spot removal, Gift is likely to be towards the top of the list.

But, I am not trying to get away from creatures. Ephara wants creatures and I would rather cut some of the noncreatures I do have (Venser being the main one) for more creatures. I would rather not double down on moving away from them.

As for the Lion, I understand the power behind it. I called it out in the Primer as being a good card that almost certainly *should* be in the deck. I have avoided it simply because I tend to avoid cards that cause repetitive board states or games. To pokken's point, there is other utility to this card and I need something for Mindcensor anyway (I don't feel Mindcensor is good enough to be here) so I have already ordered one.
For cuts I would suggest the cards that make you look like a Brago deck. In my experience they are win-more here and don't really offer a ton of value or utility. They are: Mulldrifter, Cloudblazer, Kor Cartographer, Resolute Archangel, Solemn Simulacrum, Duplicant. A somewhat situational hatebear I'd cut is Seht's Tiger.

Hope my suggestions helped! More takes on Ephara are always interesting.
I could be easily convinced to cut Duplicant and Seht's Tiger. They are ones I have questioned for a while anyway. I could be convinced of cutting Solemn and Cartographer too, but not as easily as the others. There needs to be something really good to cut my ramp for. The deck still often needs ramp and Solemn draws me a card when he dies. Being able to blink/flicker them is also pretty good value.

The others though are ones that I would never cut in this deck. Looking like a Brago deck isn't a concern for me. I am not sure "Draw 3 cards" (which Mulldrifter and Cloudblazer often are) are win-more. They are cards to ensure I stay relevant in the game. Cloudblazer's life gain is also nice though doesn't often mean much. And Resolute Archangel has literally won me games (similar to your games with Confinement). I still remember the game where she gained me 80 life over the course of a game. While an outlier to be sure, I have often dug just to find her so I wouldn't die. She isn't necessarily the best card in the deck but she pulls her weight.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago
Years ago I ran Haazda Shield Mate in my Ephara hatebears deck. Its an interesting option in that he gives incentive for fatties to go elsewhere and is a creature for Ephara and easy to rez with some effects like Sun Titan / Emeria, the Sky Ruin / Karmic Guide. Its also worth mentioning that he can temporarily cover for some protection post being removed assuming they remove things the same turn they attack (like a Cyclonic Rift into attack same turn assuming they don't stagger the turns with it). It doesn't target either making him fairly strong vs voltron assuming you see any of that.
I don't see a lot of Voltron in my meta so maybe it is a better card in that environment. But, a 3 drop that ties up 2 of my mana every turn, and then costs 1 mana per source on top of that to do anything seems very slow. I can see that there would be games where it would do good work but I don't think I can justify holding up 3+ mana every turn cycle for something like this. Again, in a Voltron heavy meta, I think this could be an include; but not in mine.

I also see that this is really the best creature with this effect though so I understand why you use it. There are very few, repeatable sources of damage prevention stapled to a creature.
Last edited by WizardMN 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Only random comment I have on that dialog is that I found monastery mentor to be surprisingly good when I played it and I had fewer effects that trigger it than you do -- with archaeomancer and spellseeker, and recruiter, you have a virtual couple extra (as well as enlightened tutor finding sensei's divining top type chains ).

What I found was I would regularly find a spellseeker and then chain into a couple spells with it and mentor would go nuts, or I would find Forbid and forbid + mentor would close the game out on their own (same with Capsize).

However, it also was removed quite a lot as people recognized how much it cascades out of control -- and being vulnerable to creature removal is not something this deck really wants to be. Part of what I like about it is how little we generally care about it.

That said, I did close out some games with it pretty triumphantly -- the spellseeker chain to mystical tutor → forbid was fairly absurd. It is pretty borderline unbeatable to get forbid + mentor in this deck.

It's a pretty swingy card in this deck, but I think it is powerful enough it's worth giving a try to if you want to try the mystical tutor+ forbid package (with which I also recommend land tax).

Of the times I played mentor my rough mental map says that about 1/3rd precipitated a sweeper, 1/3rd it got removed immediately, and 1/3rd it took over the game. I remember it getting counterspelled more than once which is bizarre right? :P People almost never counterspell my stuff because they fear losing a counter war.

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

If nothing else, it gives me a reason to use my Judge foil Mentor, which I won't really use anywhere else, so maybe that is enough to push me over the edge :)

I appreciate the breakdown. This weekend I might try to do a little more with tweaking the deck with some of the suggestions above.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Only random comment I have on that dialog is that I found monastery mentor to be surprisingly good when I played it and I had fewer effects that trigger it than you do -- with archaeomancer and spellseeker, and recruiter, you have a virtual couple extra (as well as enlightened tutor finding sensei's divining top type chains ).
We were discussing Ephemerate + Archaeomancer in your Ephara thread just the other day, and as I was reading your latest in this thread I was just thinking how busted that combo would be with Monastery Mentor out. Then it occurred to me: doesn't rebound force you to exile ephemerate so that Archaeomancer can't get it back? Even if that's the case, you could just run Cloudshift + Archaeomancer to get a bunch of cast triggers from mentor at instant speed and then use your last white mana to cloudshift the mentor if it's targeted. Untapping with 7-8 prowess monks is an indescribably great feeling y'all, I'm telling you.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
4 years ago
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Only random comment I have on that dialog is that I found monastery mentor to be surprisingly good when I played it and I had fewer effects that trigger it than you do -- with archaeomancer and spellseeker, and recruiter, you have a virtual couple extra (as well as enlightened tutor finding sensei's divining top type chains ).
We were discussing Ephemerate + Archaeomancer in your Ephara thread just the other day, and as I was reading your latest in this thread I was just thinking how busted that combo would be with Monastery Mentor out. Then it occurred to me: doesn't rebound force you to exile ephemerate so that Archaeomancer can't get it back? Even if that's the case, you could just run Cloudshift + Archaeomancer to get a bunch of cast triggers from mentor at instant speed and then use your last white mana to cloudshift the mentor if it's targeted. Untapping with 7-8 prowess monks is an indescribably great feeling y'all, I'm telling you.

Naw, when you cast Ephemerate the second time it goes to yard when it resolves. Tricky rules stuff. You get to cast it for free from exile then it goes to yard.
Casting the card again due to rebound's delayed triggered ability is optional. If you choose not to cast the card, or if you can't (perhaps because there are no legal targets available), the card will stay exiled. You won't get another chance to cast it on a future turn. If you do cast the card, it's put into its owner's graveyard as normal once it resolves.
(2019-06-14)
So what happens is you ephemerate archaeomancer, getting something (in my case, cyclonic rift because I am bad person), then rebound ephemerate blinking arch, spell resolves an goes to yard, arch trigger goes on the stack targeting ephemerate.

Very similar to hitting an eternal witness off a genesis wave type shenanigans.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

Got it, so you can't chain a bunch of ephemerates between upkeeps, which is where I was thinking it was bananas. You get it once when you originally cast it from hand, then starting on your next upkeep you get it 2x per turn cycle basically: on upkeep from rebound and once from your hand before your next upkeep. That being the case, cloudshift + arch would be nuttier with monastery mentor out, but the free spell recurred from ephemerate + arch is probably better without some other cast trigger as part of the combo.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
4 years ago
Got it, so you can't chain a bunch of ephemerates between upkeeps, which is where I was thinking it was bananas. You get it once when you originally cast it from hand, then starting on your next upkeep you get it 2x per turn cycle basically: on upkeep from rebound and once from your hand before your next upkeep. That being the case, cloudshift + arch would be nuttier with monastery mentor out, but the free spell recurred from ephemerate + arch is probably better without some other cast trigger as part of the combo.
While cloudshift generates more ephara triggers, it costs WWW to get 3 draws - which is fairly efficient. However, ephemerate generates 2 draws and +1 instant/sorcery, so +3 cards for W per turn cycle (and one of the cards rates to be very high impact since we only play very high impact instants like mana drain for the most part).

Even with mentor cloudshift is only moderately more efficient.

Generally speaking I think eerie interlude or ghostly flicker are going to be a bit more valuable than Cloudshift despite the increase in cost -- since they either dodge sweepers or can go infinite. Flicker +nykthos +arch goes infinite pretty easily.

But all around I don't think you can touch the efficiency of ephemerate generating +2 ephara draws and an instant/sorc to hand for W.

Gotta be careful here kinda selling myself on ghostly flicker however hehe :)

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Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Flicker +nykthos +arch goes infinite pretty easily.
Oh, that's gross. I have always just mentally filtered out the land clause of Ghostly Flicker, but if you're able to cast it over and over with a big mana land that's big game.
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Even with mentor cloudshift is only moderately more efficient.
If you're thinking in terms of an Ephara deck, absolutely because it's only netting you 3 unknown draws vs. Ephemerate's 2 unknown draws + 1 known and powerful spell back from the yard. Cloudshift + Arch + Mentor intrigues me just because I love mentor and my interest is piqued at the idea of storming off with a cheap spell while he's out just before the turn passes to me.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
4 years ago
If you're thinking in terms of an Ephara deck, absolutely because it's only netting you 3 unknown draws vs. Ephemerate's 2 unknown draws + 1 known and powerful spell back from the yard. Cloudshift + Arch + Mentor intrigues me just because I love mentor and my interest is piqued at the idea of storming off with a cheap spell while he's out just before the turn passes to me.
I'm always thinking in terms of Ephara lol ;)

With some big mana saved up you could definitely storm off with Mentor with cloudshift; we have a few ways to make big mana (nykthos, smothering tithe), so pretty easy to make say, 10 white and make 10 monks, then untap and make all the monks +10/+10 and MDK someone, sometimes multiples.

Cloudshift is a totally defensible card I think if you're approaching 15-20 ETB effects, or even a bit fewer if you've got recruiter + spellseeker + intuition. It's incredibly powerful with reveillark.

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

On the flip side, what is the floor for something like Cloudshift or Ephemerate? That is, the discussion is around Archaeomancer and Monastery Mentor but without either one (or, I guess, without Archaeomancer specifically) how good are single use blink effects? These don't save our creatures from wraths but they do get extra use out of ETB triggers as mentioned.

And, while Reveillark is good, is just Recruiter and Spellseeker good enough to make the case for their inclusion? Would they only be worth including if 'Lark or Monastery Mentor (to storm off) was here? I think I counted 18 in my list (and I realize it is quite a bit different than pokken's) and I have to admit that re-using Resolute Archangel, Selfless Squire, Karmic Guide, or Snap and Gearhulk does seem enticing. But then I realize it is "only" one extra use out of these (maybe 2 with Ephemerate) and I am not sure how good these end up being as value cards more than combo cards.

I do remember a discussion around Momentary Blink for this deck and pokken had commented on it being just bad (which I ultimately agreed with). I don't see enough of a difference between that and the two cards being discussed so is Mentor enough to push these cards over the edge? Or is the synergy with Archaeomancer enough to warrant the inclusion of Ephemerate?

To be clear, I understand the cost differences. I am just looking at it as being a spell that can be used twice. Perhaps it is the cost itself that makes it tough to justify. But I wasn't sure if that was the biggest reason for Cloudshift being "better".

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I am not on board with cloudshift or momentary blink, but I play Ephemerate (although I could see those two being playable in some instances, usually after eerie interlude)

Ephemerate has been real good for me. Worst case is it's draw two cards for W if you have a creature. The most common scenario I find it is off of spellseeker or mystical tutor, but it does a lot of work for W. Cloudshift I don't like because it fires once and Momentary blink fires twice for 5x the mana of ephemerate.

The usual floor for Ephemerate is:
Counter a removal spell and draw a card, then draw a card

So a 3 for 1 for W.

The actual foor for Ephemerate is 2-for-1'd by a removal spell (you ephemerate a creature, they kill it in response). While that does happen it doesn't in practice very much as in general if people are removing your creatures with targeted removal they're not doing great.

For me the upside of interactions with: Makes it almost always very good. The two activations for W makes the floor high and if you get it off Spellseeker it's gonna be bad for opponents :P

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

I might give it a try. I can see where the W cost for 2 casts is pretty good. I think I am shying further away from Monastery Mentor based on a game I played last night (details below) but Ephemerate seems like it could be reasonable with all the ETB stuff in the deck. From your list, I don't have 4 of those cards but I do have others in their place so the use seems decent.

On to my game.
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This game was against a couple of fellow judges at a Judge Conference so it was not played against players in my normal meta. This is one of the biggest reasons I played it: I wanted to see how it would do in a different setting. It went well, and was fun, but it took kind of a weird turn. The opponents were Sliver Overlord, Muldrotha the Gravetide, and Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Bird Tribal).

Slivers started off slow, as did I. I kept a 2 lander (2 Islands) but I had Solemn Simulacrum and Day's Undoing. My thought was that as long as I get a land in 3 draws, I can fire off Undoing if needed and if I get 2 lands, I can cast Solemn, I ended up getting 2 lands and casting Solemn. I then missed a land drop but was still able to land Ephara and Stormscape Familiar.

Muldrotha worked to get a few things going. One of which was looping Fleshbag Marauder to make us sac stuff. However, and this was one of my favorite plays of the early game, I had cast Gilded Drake to steal their Overlord and then, in response to the Marauder, I stole one of their Slivers to sac. I didn't get to do much more since they cast a sliver to exile Overlord but it was still fun.

Muldrotha ended up getting out a Fleet Swallower and attacking Slivers. They then targeted them with the trigger and milled half their deck. This ended up milling a lot of their good creatures (or, so they said) and it painted a target on them to have their graveyard exiled. So, that is what I did. I cast Angel of Finality and exiled their graveyard. They ended up scooping.

A couple turns went by, and I attempted to deal with Muldrotha as best as possible. Mostly just keeping Fleet Swallower off the field. Eventually, they got it back and were able to attack. They attacked me but targeted themselves. They binned a lot of good stuff but, luckily, I had Remorseful Cleric on the field (it seems they missed it or didn't realize what it did) so I just exiled their yard before they could do anything with it.

They ended up having to leave after about an hour of play due to other commitments. So, now, it was just me and Derevi duking it out. And this took forever. The game continued for another 2.5 hours where we never got to finish it due to the store closing. Some of the highlights of this game were:

I had gotten down to 9 life and decided to go risky and slam a Mana Crypt since I needed the mana to draw cards. I was able to draw into an Angel of the Dire Hour to exile their attacking creatures and won 3 or 4 dice rolls while losing 1. They swung in again and got me down to 2. My upkeep came around and I cast Disallow on the trigger and ripped Resolute Archangel off the top. Keep in mind this is after digging about 10 cards with Eldrazi Displacer and Top and Ephara. They couldn't stop it so I gained 38 life.

Derevi got a Dovescape on the field for a while and was casting stuff into it to get birds. I was just hanging on with some of my fliers and my Eldrazi Displacer to exile the tokens. They hit me for 9 one turn and gained some life due to a bird that gave their attacking creatures lifelink. but I was still surviving. I then dropped in a Charming Prince so instead of exiling their tokens, I just blinked Prince to gain 21 life.

I tried to cast a Winds of Abandon using Nimble Obstructionist to counter the Dovescape trigger. They countered my Winds since they had Boseiju, Who Shelters All to get through the Dovescape.

I tried to draw into more cards, and gained life, with Cloudblazer and Displacer and stopped 2 cards short of the one I wanted Venser, Shaper Savant. This would have allowed me to bounce the Dovescape and recast the Winds of Abandon I got back to my hand off of Archaeomancer. I ended up drawing him on Derevi's turn but I had to use him to bounce a Wrath of God back to their hand (that Boseiju made uncounterable).

I later got Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir down to stop their shenanigans with Alchemist's Refuge. This didn't stop them from activating Derevi and sacrificing him to Seaside Haven over and over again. They had a ton of mana due to Gaea's Cradle and the transform land that is a Cradle.

Trying to stop my Teferi, they drew down to 6 cards in their library off of a fused Beck//Call which triggered a ridiculous number of times since they kept casting things into Dovescape to get birds to draw cards to cast more stuff, etc. etc. But, they couldn't stop him. As part of this though, they ended up getting a huge Kangee, Aerie Keeper with 17 counters. And they had 30+ birds on the field. Now, I could have blinked it with Displacer but I wanted to go a little deeper to just get my Angel of the Dire Hour back. Instead, I got Selfless Squire. So, now, I had a 500/500 (more or less) Squire. We never actually calculated it since it didn't matter. I just rode the Displacer + Squire for a couple turns.

At one point, and I wish I would have gone with this earlier, I had a Supreme Verdict in hand and I was going to blink my Prince a bunch of times to exile all my creatures. Since that is until end of turn, I could do that to save my board, wrath their board (and my Prince) and then get my creatures back. I waited too long to do it which I think was a mistake. Since they had a Supreme Verdict of their own, it likely didn't matter.

The game ended with them bouncing their Dovescape, casting Supreme Verdict, and then casting Memory to shuffle their graveyard back into their library. Since the store was closing, we had to pack it up. I don't know that there was any player who clearly would have won, but I was feeling pretty good about where the game was. Likely they felt the same though :)
Overall, this game took 3.5 hours, 2.5 of which was 1v1. I did so much in this game, and saw so much of my deck that I got to see a lot of what everything was doing (except Brazen Borrower; I still never saw that). And I think it performed admirably well against a deck that was a swarm deck that also cut off a lot of my Instants and Sorceries.

Dovescape is a surprisingly effective card against this deck. Because it is so creature based, I was able to get around it for the most part, but it still stopped a lot of my answers to what they were doing. I never did get a chance to tweak the deck before playing so I didn't get Cavalier of Dawn in the deck. And I really would have liked it here. It is too bad it can't hit lands (they had a couple really important lands I needed to blow up) but blinking it off Displacer would have done a lot and even just blowing up Dovescape would have done a lot.

Beyond Capsize and Venser, I am not sure I have much in the deck to deal with problematic lands. Maybe Generous Gift should be given more consideration just based on this. I am not sure if there is anything better in these colors beyond just bouncing lands.

Soulherder didn't do a lot but it made an appearance and it helped out with some of my ETB stuff. Mostly Charming Prince. It was actually odd how little it did but even just drawing off Mulldrifter and Cloudblazer were big plays.

I did end up getting a Seht's Tiger in hand but I had to just cast it to trigger Ephara. When I saw it, I was less than excited for it. Duplicant and Venser, the Sojourner were the same. I never saw Alms Collector but, if I got it down at the right time, it could have done a lot to slow down Derevi with the Twisters we were casting. The problem is that they refilled their hand very well with Seaside Haven and Collector doesn't stop that so I am still on the fence about it.

Spirit of the Labyrinth does, which might have been nice, but I have a feeling that I would have been hampered more by it than them. I don't know that I have a way of knowing though. And I don't like cutting off my own draw.

Aven Mindcensor is also still one that I never got to in this game and I am not sure it would have made a huge difference if I had. Granted, Derevi was ramping pretty hard with Fetches, Crucible of Worlds, and Exploration. But I didn't have the Bird at the time and they did so much more beyond ramp that the Aven wouldn't have helped with.

Kor Cartographer is another that I might give more thought to cutting. I can't justify cutting both it and Solemn Simulacrum but maybe slotting in a Tithe is acceptable. It doesn't ramp me but it guarantees land drops. I really don't like Knight of the White Orchid so my other option for ramp, if even needed, is just more artifact rocks.

I am also contemplating the need for Stonecloaker. With the addition of Whitemane Lion (once I get it) and the addition of Remorseful Cleric I wonder if spot removal for graveyards is still warranted. Angel of Finality also covers this. I get that is has Flash and can save my creatures if needed, but does it make sense to have both this and the Lion in here?

With regards to these thoughts, I don't really have much in mind for replacements for everything. Cavalier and Lion are going in and pokken and MeowZeDung's comments are leading me towards wanting to try out Ephemerate. If I do cut all the cards I am thinking about, that still leaves me with 3 more cards to replace.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I play an extra answer to stuff like dovescape that is mostly me (leonin relic-warder) but I've found it to be very powerful at that price. It causes some interesting play where people don't want to kill it and give someone their darksteel forge back, or we work together and someone banes after I pop a forge, etc.

Seht's Tiger feels mostly worse than selfless squire to me - pretty much a one or the other effect to me.

I've loooong been anti-duplicant. 6 mana is just way too much for that effect - clean swap for Cavalier of Dawn in my opinion, despite the advantages of exile.

I would keep stonecloaker over remorseful cleric if it's one or the other. The surprise element of cloaker is better, and it's just stronger by itself. I like cleric a lot with sun titan and reveillark, which I am just now noticing you don't play :) I was sure you had them for some reason.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Specifically re: 4 CMC mana guys--

I don't think any of the 4 CMC ramp creatures are worth playing, even with blink options. They're almost always way worse than a 2 CMC mana dork or simply finding a land to play, depending on what your situation is. They're just very very slow.

And the fundamental thing they do is conflict with playing Ephara. 4 CMC cards need to be your real powerhouses in my book - casting one of those things after Ephara is horrible and you never want to do it before Ephara, so you wind up with awkward sequences like:

Turn 2: Ramp spell
Turn 3: Tap out for Ephara (4 mana)
Turn 4: Play 4 CMC ramp creature and have 1 mana for interactive spells/flash creatures (5 mana)

Or even worse, without the 2 CMC ramp spell the sequence is horrendous - you wind up taking two entire turns off on turn 4 and 5.

4 CMC in general is a really tight spot in any Ephara build for me - I only play 5 x 4 CMC spells that aren't sweepers and they are all hugely powerful -- the worst being Linvala, and she still does an incredible amount of work on turn 4 in a lot of games.

Your deck does tend to play a little longer than mine, but still I think the percentage of the time tithe, land tax, boreas charger or smothering tithe are going to outperform those guys is pretty high.

------------------------------------------------------------

With regards to changes, you know I'm on board with whitemane and ephemerate ; I think if playing ephemerate, adding another clone (clever impersonator would be my choice) would be reasonable to consider as well. body double is also good.

I'm not really sure I can make a great selection of suggestions without reimagining your deck as mine, when we're talking like 7-8 cards that could basically remake the whole thing.

What I will do is throw out a list of ramp/fixing cards I would consider as alternatives:
I do not like mana rocks a lot in your build; one of the defining differences between our designs is how almost immune you are to artifact/enchantment sweepers/removal, and I think I would lean on mana dorks and land tutors. I like mind stone better in your build too because of the likelihood you will sac it, and dowsing dagger to flip it.

The 2 CMC mana dorks are much higher upside than fellwar stone and so on in your deck since you you can just chuck them for a card late game without having to pay as much.

And one of my biggest regrets ramp wise is I didn't have the attention span to give boreas charger a serious try. It had a few bad runs for me and that was pre-ephemerate and pre-soulherder. It not having a foil is a big problem for me :P

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
I play an extra answer to stuff like dovescape that is mostly me (leonin relic-warder) but I've found it to be very powerful at that price. It causes some interesting play where people don't want to kill it and give someone their darksteel forge back, or we work together and someone banes after I pop a forge, etc.
I had the Relic-Warder at one point but I never felt I needed it. And I don't want to go too far into finding answers for it if I don't really need them for anything else. I think Relic-Warder is good to keep in the back of my mind if I feel I need anything more than Cavalier.
Seht's Tiger feels mostly worse than selfless squire to me - pretty much a one or the other effect to me.
I agree that it is worse even though the Tiger has some interesting play lines that work if I am targeted by something. But they come up so rarely as to be insignificant.
I've loooong been anti-duplicant. 6 mana is just way too much for that effect - clean swap for Cavalier of Dawn in my opinion, despite the advantages of exile.
Interestingly, so have I. I have cut it from every deck I play, except this one. And the only reason it survived this long is due to being able to blink it. Duplicant was once a great card (or, I thought it was great) but the newer cards have outpaced it.
I would keep stonecloaker over remorseful cleric if it's one or the other. The surprise element of cloaker is better, and it's just stronger by itself. I like cleric a lot with sun titan and reveillark, which I am just now noticing you don't play :) I was sure you had them for some reason.
I am not sure on this one. I think there is certainly merit to the surprise element to Cloaker as well as the interaction with Ephara on its own. But I think its effect, at 3 mana, just isn't worth it. Yes, getting rid of an Animate Dead target at Instant Timing is great, but trying to stop a Living Death/End, Replenish, Dance of the Manse, Patriarch's Bidding, etc. with Stonecloaker is futile. Or, in the case of my situation above, Stonecloaker doesn't do enough against Muldrotha. Maybe the surprise element is good, but I still like the "just blow it all away" effect of Cleric.

As for Sun Titan, I think I stayed away from it early on due to not having a lot of targets for it. Even now, I only have 19 targets. Of these, 4 are mana rocks, 3 are creatures I don't usually want to reanimate, and 2 are ones I am thinking of cutting anyway. That leaves me with 10 actual targets. I haven't felt that is enough to warrant Sun Titan's inclusion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Specifically re: 4 CMC mana guys--

I don't think any of the 4 CMC ramp creatures are worth playing, even with blink options. They're almost always way worse than a 2 CMC mana dork or simply finding a land to play, depending on what your situation is. They're just very very slow.

And the fundamental thing they do is conflict with playing Ephara. 4 CMC cards need to be your real powerhouses in my book - casting one of those things after Ephara is horrible and you never want to do it before Ephara, so you wind up with awkward sequences like:

Turn 2: Ramp spell
Turn 3: Tap out for Ephara (4 mana)
Turn 4: Play 4 CMC ramp creature and have 1 mana for interactive spells/flash creatures (5 mana)

Or even worse, without the 2 CMC ramp spell the sequence is horrendous - you wind up taking two entire turns off on turn 4 and 5.

4 CMC in general is a really tight spot in any Ephara build for me - I only play 5 x 4 CMC spells that aren't sweepers and they are all hugely powerful -- the worst being Linvala, and she still does an incredible amount of work on turn 4 in a lot of games.

Your deck does tend to play a little longer than mine, but still I think the percentage of the time tithe, land tax, boreas charger or smothering tithe are going to outperform those guys is pretty high.

------------------------------------------------------------
After a single game, I think I likely dismissed shermanido37's suggestion on these too soon. This is shown by my thought of cutting Cartographer already. Solemn is tough since I really like the card, but I am starting think that Tithe truly is the best option here. It doesn't ramp me but I still like it much better than the other options.

I really don't like Boreas Charger since it has to die (or otherwise leave the field) which means I won't get use out of it right away. Smothering Tithe is a card I see mentioned for a fair number of builds but I don't like it here. Yes, it helps ramp but I need to take a turn off to cast it, which means I draw 1 less card from Ephara (potentially) plus it taps me out. Though, I realize I will probably get mana from each opponent drawing for turn. This argument does seem a bit hypocritical considering I was so adamant I didn't want to cut my 4 mana ramp earlier and those only ramped me one mana. I guess I don't have a better argument against it other than "I just don't like it".

Land Tax is the one that I would give serious consideration to after Tithe. It works better than Tithe after a single turn. The only reason I would look at Tithe first is because I get the land right away. It is also tougher to disrupt. I am not sure how often it would happen but casting Land Tax just to see it destroyed before my next upkeep feels bad. Even worse would be if I really needed the lands to make my land drop.

After typing this all out, I am kind of torn between the two. The fact that Land Tax has a foil (and I already have a Judge foil) might push it over the edge :)
With regards to changes, you know I'm on board with whitemane and ephemerate ; I think if playing ephemerate, adding another clone (clever impersonator would be my choice) would be reasonable to consider as well. body double is also good.

I'm not really sure I can make a great selection of suggestions without reimagining your deck as mine, when we're talking like 7-8 cards that could basically remake the whole thing.

What I will do is throw out a list of ramp/fixing cards I would consider as alternatives:
I do not like mana rocks a lot in your build; one of the defining differences between our designs is how almost immune you are to artifact/enchantment sweepers/removal, and I think I would lean on mana dorks and land tutors. I like mind stone better in your build too because of the likelihood you will sac it, and dowsing dagger to flip it.

The 2 CMC mana dorks are much higher upside than fellwar stone and so on in your deck since you you can just chuck them for a card late game without having to pay as much.

And one of my biggest regrets ramp wise is I didn't have the attention span to give boreas charger a serious try. It had a few bad runs for me and that was pre-ephemerate and pre-soulherder. It not having a foil is a big problem for me :P
I agree that artifact ramp isn't quite where this deck wants to be, but it could be necessary. But, I think I have a good place to start with either Tithe or Land Tax.

As for the clone, maybe Soulherder and Ephemerate are enough to allow it to make the cut. It is obviously useful on its own but, once on the field, Ephemerate turns it into a 1 mana Stunt Double and it can even be worth it to turn it into a Planeswalker if needed. I agree that Clever Impersonator is probably one of the better ones beyond Stunt Double. I don't really have a good reason not to try it out so I might give it a try.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I've been fairly happy with my assortment of rocks but I'm generally going just a little harder I think in terms of trying to be fast than you are. My general mana package looks like:

Ramp Ephara out Find lands Close the game ramp Just for me anyway I look at every piece of ramp that isn't getting to Ephara early as having to somehow generate a huge mana advantage, so I don't like any of the intermediate stuff that just gets you to +2 or +3 mana (e.g. gilded lotus or dowsing dagger). I also value hitting land drops very highly hence all the cantrips and tithe/tax. I ran oreskos explorer at one point and it wasn't bad.




Re: Sun Titan
I think phantasmal image combined with more fetchlands, plus intuition makes me rate him higher. Your assessment is probably correct for your build.

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Post by shermanido37 » 4 years ago

I think the missing link to land tax effects (which I also prioritize) is Walking Atlas. I don't play it anymore because the list is really tight, but it's an instant speed Exploration after the first round it comes out, plus it draws a card on entry. It is definitely a card worth considering to run along with Charger and friends and I have personally witnessed it doing very well late in the game.

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

shermanido37 wrote:
4 years ago
I think the missing link to land tax effects (which I also prioritize) is Walking Atlas. I don't play it anymore because the list is really tight, but it's an instant speed Exploration after the first round it comes out, plus it draws a card on entry. It is definitely a card worth considering to run along with Charger and friends and I have personally witnessed it doing very well late in the game.
To be honest, Sword of the Animist is my card for that effect. Or, to another extent, Terrain Generator. Yes, I need a creature to attack with for Sword but I also don't need a land in hand.

I can see where Atlas works well with Land Tax. My main concern is around the fact that Atlas doesn't so as much without Land Tax. It definitely gets better with both on the field, but it seems that Atlas might, at best, ramp me into Ephara a turn early if I get it down on turn 2 and have an extra land in hand. I guess I am not sure on it.

Another card I was debating was Selfless Spirit. Not sure how great it really ends up being but it seems like it could do a lot to stop some board wipes or turn my own wraths into Winds of Abandon (that don't exile). Just looking at a few games it seems that, while I don't necessarily care if my board is wrathed, saving my board is obviously preferable as I would be the only one with a board.

This would also have me lean further into Sun Titan as an option. Looking at the cards I have, it might still be worth reanimating various creatures and it gives me a beater. With Selfless Spirit, this gives me a way to give my creatures indestructible when I need them and gives me a cheap creature to trigger Ephara.
pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Re: Sun Titan
I think phantasmal image combined with more fetchlands, plus intuition makes me rate him higher. Your assessment is probably correct for your build.
Thinking more on this (due to the thought of Sun Titan and Selfless Spirit above), how good has Phantasmal Image been for you? I get that it doesn't work well with blink effects so it is "just" a 2 mana, single-use, clone but 2 mana to get a trigger from Ephara or something decent from Sun Titan (maybe even another Sun Titan :) ) seems like it could be decent. I realize I don't have the fetchlands that allow Sun Titan to ramp me, but perhaps there are other uses. 6 mana is kind of high though which is why I am waffling on including it and seeing if there is any way to make him, as well as the rest of the deck, just a little better. I am thinking that even Land Tax → Discard lands → get lands back with Titan effectively replicates the fetchland scenario.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
4 years ago
Thinking more on this (due to the thought of Sun Titan and Selfless Spirit above), how good has Phantasmal Image been for you? I get that it doesn't work well with blink effects so it is "just" a 2 mana, single-use, clone but 2 mana to get a trigger from Ephara or something decent from Sun Titan (maybe even another Sun Titan :) ) seems like it could be decent. I realize I don't have the fetchlands that allow Sun Titan to ramp me, but perhaps there are other uses. 6 mana is kind of high though which is why I am waffling on including it and seeing if there is any way to make him, as well as the rest of the deck, just a little better. I am thinking that even Land Tax → Discard lands → get lands back with Titan effectively replicates the fetchland scenario.
Phantasmal image is top 10 power level of creatures in the deck easily, for me. One of the reasons I like it so much is its interaction with Sun Titan, that interaction has won me numerous games, but it has a ton of redeeming qualities.

Image being tutorable with muddle the mixture and recruiter of the guard are relevant for me, and Image enables some outside-the-box intuition packages where you already have a piece on the board (e.g. karmic guide is already on board and you need to reuse it to fix your package).

Being part of an infinite combo with reveillark is also a big deal for me, but obviously that is not a big deal for you.

Probably the most powerful thing other than that it ends up doing is creating insane emeria, the sky ruin turns by chaining karmic guides/sun titans/recruiters/etc.

Interestingly I suspect image will be very high impact in your deck because of all the mulldrifters you run that I don't. Imaging a cloudblazer is likely to be backbreaking a fairly high percentage of the time.

Oh, and low key copying glen elendra archmage is also nice. 2 mana for a single use glen elendra that comes back as something else when it persists is pretty powerful a lot of the time.

(Side note: Forbid is another card whose stock goes up with sun titan and land tax)

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
Phantasmal image is top 10 power level of creatures in the deck easily, for me. One of the reasons I like it so much is its interaction with Sun Titan, that interaction has won me numerous games, but it has a ton of redeeming qualities.

Image being tutorable with muddle the mixture and recruiter of the guard are relevant for me, and Image enables some outside-the-box intuition packages where you already have a piece on the board (e.g. karmic guide is already on board and you need to reuse it to fix your package).

Probably the most powerful thing other than that it ends up doing is creating insane emeria, the sky ruin turns by chaining karmic guides/sun titans/recruiters/etc.
This is one of the things I was really thinking off of Sun Titan directly but Emeria is another line for it. Though Clever Impersonator does the same thing off Emeria. It is mainly the Sun Titan interaction, if I included it, that I would be interested in exploring further. It sounds like it might be useful enough to warrant its inclusion.
Interestingly I suspect image will be very high impact in your deck because of all the mulldrifters you run that I don't. Imaging a cloudblazer is likely to be backbreaking a fairly high percentage of the time.

Oh, and low key copying glen elendra archmage is also nice. 2 mana for a single use glen elendra that comes back as something else when it persists is pretty powerful a lot of the time.
While I don't run Archmage, I do like the idea of being able to double up on Mulldrifter and Cloudblazer triggers as well as everything else I have.
(Side note: Forbid is another card whose stock goes up with sun titan and land tax)
That is likely very true :) But, I have made a conscious decision to include few counterspells in the deck because I like how it plays without them. I obviously have some, and I believe I need some, but a repeatable counter is further than I want to go for now. It may get slotted in later though if I include Titan and Tax.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Yeah, clever impersonator is very similar power level wise -- the upside of hitting enchantments/artifacts/planeswalkers is nice but the cost is why I prefer image. Less flexible but way cheaper. I can see the it going either way. I would consider trying them both and seeing which one you like.

You actually run two more counterspells than I do, 1 more if you count glen elendra archmage as a counter -- I keep it specifically to mana drain and forbid because both of them are game winning plays. Disallow/summary dismissal are clutch if your group has a lot of eldrazi though so I can see the utility there. I really struggle to beat an ulamog, the ceaseless hunger most of the time.

Edit: note, i forgot muddle the mixture :)

I do think forbid is probably better than disallow most of the time, but it does move you into a lockdown territory that can create unfun games for people; decks that focus on their commanders *really* struggle with forbid and that's something I have had to deal with complaints about more than once.

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

Yeah, Forbid ends up being tough due to being a little too good. And, Disallow has kind of proven its worth just in helping me stay in that last game :). I know one data point shouldn't be enough to really lean on a card as being "good" but I like it for its flexibility.

I think with all these discussions, I am going to try the following. Some of these are just trying out more than one effect and scaling back if needed as I would rather try them all at once since I have the space for them with the cards I am getting down on:

I think these have had a good discussion in the past few days so I won't go into a lot of detail, but I will give a short summary of each of the cuts.
  • Solemn and Cartographer - Being 4 CMC put them in a weird place with trying to get down Ephara. Also, better ramp exists and I think ensuring land drops with cheaper spells over actual ramp might be better here.
  • Duplicant - 6 mana for an exile effect that only hits nontoken creatures is too high. Cavalier is an easy swap here.
  • Seht's Tiger - Selfless Squire is often enough and, while Protection protects against a bit more, having a big beater after an alpha strike puts Squire above this.
  • Alms Collector - Works with only a couple cards in the deck and is otherwise too inconsistent to be included
  • Venser - I have been looking to cut him for a while. I think he is slow, it takes too long to get to his ultimate, and other adds are better for the blink aspect.
  • Aven Mindcensor - It is just out of place in this deck (as is Alms Collector) as this isn't a hate bears deck and it tends to either do nothing or just gets answered before someone goes off. 3 mana to stop a search one hasn't proven to be worth it.
The adds have been discussed enough above and I am not sure on all of them so I don't want to give a long description for them. I figure that, at the very least, the cards I am adding are better than the ones I am cutting even if they don't work out in the long term. If they work out, I will end up giving them a proper summary in the Card Choices in the main post of the Primer.
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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

I was really bummed to cut venser, the sojourner since he was a cornerstone of the deck for so long. The meta is just too trample heavy and creatures are too strong and fast for me to defend him these days.

I obviously am 100% behind those changes and look forward to hearing what you think. I have generally been confident in my choice to avoid the 4 cmc ramp guys but if it changes that much for you for the worse I would be willing to try a solemn for a while to see if I am incorrectly assessing it.

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

Solemn is one of those cards that I had in every deck (it is the reason I have 9 Masterpieces of him) and then I removed him from all my green decks since the card draw wasn't worth waiting for turn 4 to ramp. And, now, I am looking at him from your and shermanido's perspectives as just being a little slow in general and conflicting with getting Ephara down specifically. I will be keeping a good eye on what happens here as well. It is one thing to guess that removing a card will be detrimental but it is entirely different to actually cut it and get real results. Maybe it will turn out to be the wrong decision but there is really nothing hurt from trying it.

I think the arguments made for cutting them are sound and if it turns out that cutting them *is* the right decision, I might need to rethink them in other decks. Probably starting with Varina.

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

Throughout all of our current discussions, I completely missed adding in Cavalier of Dawn and I really want it in this deck. I am going to slot it in instead of Sun Titan for now (and edit my post above) since I don't really have room for everything. If any of the cards I am adding don't work out, Sun Titan can easily take that spot. Since some of the cards were being added partially due to their synergy with Titan, it will be interesting to see how well they work on their own.

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