(or swap cleric out - probably don't need two gravehate effects plus stonecloaker.
Ephara, God of the Polis
sun titan in for angel of finality who is really not that relevant with remorseful cleric.
(or swap cleric out - probably don't need two gravehate effects plus stonecloaker.
(or swap cleric out - probably don't need two gravehate effects plus stonecloaker.
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And, another change I forgot to document is adding in Mystic Sanctuary:
I am not entirely sure on this one as this is not a true spellslinger deck but I have a lot of instants and sorceries that would be nice to get back and being a land means there is very little lost with adding it. I cut a Plains for it since I still want my Islands to help make sure it is untapped even if that makes Emeria harder to enable. Besides this, I have 15 Islands so hopefully that is enough to get to 3 when I need it.
I also realize that the lack of fetches makes this a bit worse than it otherwise would be but I am willing to give it a shot anyway.
I am not entirely sure on this one as this is not a true spellslinger deck but I have a lot of instants and sorceries that would be nice to get back and being a land means there is very little lost with adding it. I cut a Plains for it since I still want my Islands to help make sure it is untapped even if that makes Emeria harder to enable. Besides this, I have 15 Islands so hopefully that is enough to get to 3 when I need it.
I also realize that the lack of fetches makes this a bit worse than it otherwise would be but I am willing to give it a shot anyway.
I am going to try it without Titan for now and with the 3 gravehate effects. I still think I am leaning towards Stonecloaker as the cut due to the other cards' abilities that exile an entire graveyard and Angel working really well with Displacer and Ephemerate. And Cleric works well with Titan (once I add him).pokken wrote: ↑4 years agosun titan in for angel of finality who is really not that relevant with remorseful cleric.
(or swap cleric out - probably don't need two gravehate effects plus stonecloaker.
There are definitely reasons to cut any one of them: Angel is 4 mana, Cleric needs to be Sacrificed, Stonecloaker only hits a single card. The choice seems really meta-dependent. That is, if mass reanimation is really prevalent, Stonecloaker seems worse. And I think of the other two as more "catch-all" answers where they can work in a lot of different metas if players are trying new things or I play somewhere else. Stonecloaker is pinpoint removal, but sometimes players aren't playing anything that cares about it.
On a side note, I realize I am discounting the whole "cast Stonecloaker, save a creature" line and it really is just because it isn't what I tend to think of. Whitemane Lion is being included entirely for this reason so it stands to reason that 1 mana more for the same effect and an additional, relevant, trigger, as well as a better body, should make Stonecloaker worth keeping.
I really want to give both Stonecloaker and Whitemane their chance to do what they can do so I can determine if it really is where I want the deck to be. I had avoided Whitemane Lion for so long for not doing anything so I kind of view Stonecloaker in the same light when it comes to its "bounce a creature" ability.
I played last night against Zurgo Helmsmasher, Anje Falkenrath, and Jhoira of the Ghitu.
I started off with Sword of the Animist on turn 2 which I could attach to a creature later and Ephara down on turn 4 followed by a Faerie Artisans which gave me a couple Ephara triggers. Eventually that was removed. But Sword did ramp me quite a bit throughout the game.
I was able to get Soulherder down shortly after and I could swing in with that to get some land. I then got Cavalier of Dawn on the board the turn after and was able to get 2 or 3 triggers from Cavalier which was huge. At one point, Jhoira tried to cast a Temporal Mastery so I copied it with Insidious Will. We both took our turns and I got even more Cavalier triggers. I think I ended up destroying around 8 permanents with Cavalier and the tokens never seemed to be a big deal since players were using them to block Ephara. Which is fine with me.
I did cast Return to Dust to exile an Athreos and a Noxious Gearhulk and then I got it back with my Mystic Sanctuary. Not the best play but it ended up being decent due to the Artifacts and Enchantments on the board.
At one point, when I was down to a low life total, I cast Resolute Archangel to reset my life. After a few turns, I ended up with a Charming Prince in hand and being back down to 20 life. So, I exiled Archangel again and went back to 40. With Soulherder, I could keep my life total where I wanted it for as long as I had them on board. Someone eventually wrathed, but they did their job.
In the end, I ended up beating down with Cavalier (I had gotten back with something) and a flier along with Ephara. None of my opponents could really do a lot against the Cavalier and I won the game in pretty quick fashion.
This game shows the immense impact Cavalier had on the game. Of all the cards I added, this was easily the standout star for the first outing. One of my favorite plays of the game was when Anje had Maralen of the Mornsong on the field. Since I couldn't draw cards, Ephara's trigger was useless. I let it go for one turn cycle and tutored up Ephemerate. Right before my next turn started, I cast Ephemerate to blow up....some random card (I don't even remember what it was). My turn started and I ordered my triggers so Rebound would resolve before Ephara's trigger and, since it wasn't my trigger, Maralen's resolved before any of mine.
So, I tutored for a card, let Ephemerate resolve to blink Cavalier to blow up Maralen, drew my card off Ephara, and then drew for turn. 3 cards in one turn and another at the beginning of the next upkeep thanks to Cavalier and Ephemerate. I know this is an outlier, but it felt pretty good
I did see Clever Impersonator and had it copy my Cavalier or Resolute Archangel (I think) but it came at a time where I don't think it actually mattered. I also saw Land Tax and it was a dead card in my hand for like 8 turns (I never did cast it). This is due to Sword ramping me so Land Tax wouldn't do anything. This is only the first game with it so I can't expect it to do something every time, but I will keep an eye on it to see if this is the norm or an outlier.
The only other comment I want to make is that Phantasmal Image doesn't play nicely with Soulherder. While it didn't come up in this game, it did come up while goldfishing where I only had Soulherder on the field and couldn't cast Image at all or the Soulherder would have targeted it and made me sac it. Again, probably not something that will come up a lot, but something to keep in mind.
I started off with Sword of the Animist on turn 2 which I could attach to a creature later and Ephara down on turn 4 followed by a Faerie Artisans which gave me a couple Ephara triggers. Eventually that was removed. But Sword did ramp me quite a bit throughout the game.
I was able to get Soulherder down shortly after and I could swing in with that to get some land. I then got Cavalier of Dawn on the board the turn after and was able to get 2 or 3 triggers from Cavalier which was huge. At one point, Jhoira tried to cast a Temporal Mastery so I copied it with Insidious Will. We both took our turns and I got even more Cavalier triggers. I think I ended up destroying around 8 permanents with Cavalier and the tokens never seemed to be a big deal since players were using them to block Ephara. Which is fine with me.
I did cast Return to Dust to exile an Athreos and a Noxious Gearhulk and then I got it back with my Mystic Sanctuary. Not the best play but it ended up being decent due to the Artifacts and Enchantments on the board.
At one point, when I was down to a low life total, I cast Resolute Archangel to reset my life. After a few turns, I ended up with a Charming Prince in hand and being back down to 20 life. So, I exiled Archangel again and went back to 40. With Soulherder, I could keep my life total where I wanted it for as long as I had them on board. Someone eventually wrathed, but they did their job.
In the end, I ended up beating down with Cavalier (I had gotten back with something) and a flier along with Ephara. None of my opponents could really do a lot against the Cavalier and I won the game in pretty quick fashion.
This game shows the immense impact Cavalier had on the game. Of all the cards I added, this was easily the standout star for the first outing. One of my favorite plays of the game was when Anje had Maralen of the Mornsong on the field. Since I couldn't draw cards, Ephara's trigger was useless. I let it go for one turn cycle and tutored up Ephemerate. Right before my next turn started, I cast Ephemerate to blow up....some random card (I don't even remember what it was). My turn started and I ordered my triggers so Rebound would resolve before Ephara's trigger and, since it wasn't my trigger, Maralen's resolved before any of mine.
So, I tutored for a card, let Ephemerate resolve to blink Cavalier to blow up Maralen, drew my card off Ephara, and then drew for turn. 3 cards in one turn and another at the beginning of the next upkeep thanks to Cavalier and Ephemerate. I know this is an outlier, but it felt pretty good
I did see Clever Impersonator and had it copy my Cavalier or Resolute Archangel (I think) but it came at a time where I don't think it actually mattered. I also saw Land Tax and it was a dead card in my hand for like 8 turns (I never did cast it). This is due to Sword ramping me so Land Tax wouldn't do anything. This is only the first game with it so I can't expect it to do something every time, but I will keep an eye on it to see if this is the norm or an outlier.
The only other comment I want to make is that Phantasmal Image doesn't play nicely with Soulherder. While it didn't come up in this game, it did come up while goldfishing where I only had Soulherder on the field and couldn't cast Image at all or the Soulherder would have targeted it and made me sac it. Again, probably not something that will come up a lot, but something to keep in mind.
When I have image and soulherder I image soulherder* and have it blink the other one to put counters on itself. They can't blink the same creature with their trigger but it's better than nothing if you're out of things to generate Ephara draws. One thing to keep in mind though is that goldfishing with Image tends to obscure the fact that lots of other people play desirable targets.
edit -- *Hopefully I'm right in interpreting the If clauses there that you aren't required to target Image even if the ability isn't resolving, since that'd make it sacrifice.
edit2 - upon more reading of the triggered ability rules I am not sure I am reading that right, and it may be worse than I thought. It sounds like you're forced to choose a legal target when the ability goes on the stack,. (rule 603.5). Woops. I'll leave this here for someone else to not inadvertently make my mistake. Hilariously you explained this and I failed my reading comprehension roll
Still, I think the ceiling of having two soulherders and two creatures is probably worthwhile. Been there and done that
You've got me going on the idea of playing Cavalier though, even though I have a bit less blink enabling I think I have enough that it would be quite good. You can also target Ephara with it to give yourself a golem which feels like it would scale pretty well with soulherder.
I also love me some resolute archangel -- it would be a pretty reasonable swap in for altar of dementia in my list if you didn't want to play the reveillark combo. At one point I got that down with Aminatou and it discouraged anyone from attacking for like 4 turns, didn't even have to use it since no one wanted to waste their attacks.
edit -- *Hopefully I'm right in interpreting the If clauses there that you aren't required to target Image even if the ability isn't resolving, since that'd make it sacrifice.
edit2 - upon more reading of the triggered ability rules I am not sure I am reading that right, and it may be worse than I thought. It sounds like you're forced to choose a legal target when the ability goes on the stack,. (rule 603.5). Woops. I'll leave this here for someone else to not inadvertently make my mistake. Hilariously you explained this and I failed my reading comprehension roll
Still, I think the ceiling of having two soulherders and two creatures is probably worthwhile. Been there and done that
You've got me going on the idea of playing Cavalier though, even though I have a bit less blink enabling I think I have enough that it would be quite good. You can also target Ephara with it to give yourself a golem which feels like it would scale pretty well with soulherder.
I also love me some resolute archangel -- it would be a pretty reasonable swap in for altar of dementia in my list if you didn't want to play the reveillark combo. At one point I got that down with Aminatou and it discouraged anyone from attacking for like 4 turns, didn't even have to use it since no one wanted to waste their attacks.
About goldfishing, that is a given. It is tough to goldfish this type of deck so any experiences are certainly not meant to be indicative of, well, anything really.pokken wrote: ↑4 years agoWhen I have image and soulherder I image soulherder* and have it blink the other one to put counters on itself. They can't blink the same creature with their trigger but it's better than nothing if you're out of things to generate Ephara draws. One thing to keep in mind though is that goldfishing with Image tends to obscure the fact that lots of other people play desirable targets.
edit -- *Hopefully I'm right in interpreting the If clauses there that you aren't required to target Image even if the ability isn't resolving, since that'd make it sacrifice.
In terms of their interaction though, if I have Soulherder and cast Image (copying an opponent's Razaketh, the Foulblooded for example) and these are my only creatures, when it gets to the end step, the Soulherder trigger *must* target something and Image/Raz is the only target. This triggers Image to be sacrificed whether I planned on blinking it or not (that choice is not made until the trigger resolves). Again, I don't envision it being a significant issue, but knowing the interaction can be important so we don't accidentally mess ourselves up.
I had even called out the "free" golem in the card section aboveYou've got me going on the idea of playing Cavalier though, even though I have a bit less blink enabling I think I have enough that it would be quite good. You can also target Ephara with it to give yourself a golem which feels like it would scale pretty well with soulherder.
That does put the floor of the card pretty high as it essentially means I get 7 power on the field at worst. And there are almost always targets for its ability anyway.I have had nothing but good experiences with Archangel in this build. I have won games off of it and have actively dug to find it to save me from a lot of different decks. Being 7 mana is tough and it arguably becomes unnecessary (or, not as necessary) if you play with a few combos. But, without combos, and with games tending to go on for a while, being able to reset life your life total can be the difference in winning or losing a game.I also love me some resolute archangel -- it would be a pretty reasonable swap in for altar of dementia in my list if you didn't want to play the reveillark combo. At one point I got that down with Aminatou and it discouraged anyone from attacking for like 4 turns, didn't even have to use it since no one wanted to waste their attacks.
I played again last night. This time it was against Ghalta, Primal Hunger, Progenitus, and Elsha of the Infinite.
I got down Ephara on turn 3 thanks to Ancient Tomb but I had kept a hand with 5 lands in it. I kept it mostly for Whitemane Lion which helped a lot to draw out of my situation. I think I ended up drawing 4 cards off it before someone finally countered it.
Beyond that, I didn't do a whole lot to start with. Ghalta was getting out of control and we were having a tough time stopping them. I did counter or remove Ghalta once but Ghalta is pretty easy to recast. Ghalta also cast a Avatar of Growth which did help a little though I am not sure it was really necessary for me. I think it most likely really hurt them in the end by ramping us.
Elsha did ended up wrathing so that helped out a lot. I was using Top to set up my draws and eventually got a Faerie Artisans to trigger Ephara. At one point, I ended up with 3 tokens from Artisans because I blinked it with Ephemerate to save it and with Eldrazi Displacer to save it. Displacer also did a lot to blink my Cloudblazer to draw me cards and keep my life total a reasonable number (Ancient Tomb did a *lot* of damage to me).
Progenitus ended up casting a Finale of Glory for 10 so they had 20 creatures on board. I tried to dig for a counter and, then, a sweeper, but didn't find one. Luckily, Elsha found a Wrath of God so we didn't all just lose. I ended up casting Timetwister shortly after this since my hand wasn't all that great even with my draws.
We reset and I was able to rebuild my board. I got Displacer back and had some decent cards in hand. I tried to Spell Queller something of Elsha's but they countered it. I made a huge mistake here in that I left 3 lands open (4 mana total) and all were colorless mana. I didn't leave any colored mana open which meant I couldn't cast my Release to the Wind. The reason I needed this is that Elsha was trying to combo off with Ral, Storm Conduit (which is what I tried to counter). Luckily, they didn't realize how the combo worked and they were trying to do it with his -2 and Repeated Reverberation. Which doesn't work. That just gives them 2 additional copies of their next spell (which was Frantic Search). Since they had the wrong cards for the combo, we didn't just lose.
I ended up drawing a Winds of Abandon to exile my opponents' creatures, but we ran out of time as the store was closing. We started the game with 1.5 hours available to us and I felt that the other players were playing a little on the slow side. Unfortunate, especially for a deck like this that generally plays for the long game, but it is what it is. I think that with Winds, and a few cards in my hand and my board, I probably was sitting in a pretty good position. I don't know what everyone else had, but I think I could have killed at least one player that turn.
Overall, the game went well and I saw my Whitemane Lion along with Land Tax, Ephemerate, and Phantasmal Image. Lion I commented on above and it did help get me out of a rough situation. It was basically how I expected to play out with "cast Lion, bounce Lion, draw a card" so it did have a repetitive feel to it. I wasn't excited about it, but it helped. I am hoping I get more situations where I can use the Lion to save something rather than just spamming it to draw cards.
Ephemerate was good and I liked being able to save my Artisans and get an additional draw for free when I blinked the Artisans again off Rebound. Image let me copy an opponent's Zacama, Primal Calamity to ramp me pretty hard for the turn. I ended up exiling it with Ghostway and getting an animated Forest from Ghalta and it stayed a Forest for the rest of the game.
Land Tax though was disappointing. I did get it down and, luckily, one player had more lands than I did. I grabbed 3 basics to thin my deck (I had 2 or 3 lands in hand already) and just discarded 2 at the end of the turn. I did this twice before it got blown up. I was excited about using it to shuffle away the terrible cards I had on top of my library (which I had seen with Sensei's Divining Top) but that is when it got blown up so I didn't even get to do that.
I like the idea of the card but it hasn't really shown itself to be worth it yet. I am going to let it stick around for at least one more game but I think I am slowly moving towards cutting it.
I got down Ephara on turn 3 thanks to Ancient Tomb but I had kept a hand with 5 lands in it. I kept it mostly for Whitemane Lion which helped a lot to draw out of my situation. I think I ended up drawing 4 cards off it before someone finally countered it.
Beyond that, I didn't do a whole lot to start with. Ghalta was getting out of control and we were having a tough time stopping them. I did counter or remove Ghalta once but Ghalta is pretty easy to recast. Ghalta also cast a Avatar of Growth which did help a little though I am not sure it was really necessary for me. I think it most likely really hurt them in the end by ramping us.
Elsha did ended up wrathing so that helped out a lot. I was using Top to set up my draws and eventually got a Faerie Artisans to trigger Ephara. At one point, I ended up with 3 tokens from Artisans because I blinked it with Ephemerate to save it and with Eldrazi Displacer to save it. Displacer also did a lot to blink my Cloudblazer to draw me cards and keep my life total a reasonable number (Ancient Tomb did a *lot* of damage to me).
Progenitus ended up casting a Finale of Glory for 10 so they had 20 creatures on board. I tried to dig for a counter and, then, a sweeper, but didn't find one. Luckily, Elsha found a Wrath of God so we didn't all just lose. I ended up casting Timetwister shortly after this since my hand wasn't all that great even with my draws.
We reset and I was able to rebuild my board. I got Displacer back and had some decent cards in hand. I tried to Spell Queller something of Elsha's but they countered it. I made a huge mistake here in that I left 3 lands open (4 mana total) and all were colorless mana. I didn't leave any colored mana open which meant I couldn't cast my Release to the Wind. The reason I needed this is that Elsha was trying to combo off with Ral, Storm Conduit (which is what I tried to counter). Luckily, they didn't realize how the combo worked and they were trying to do it with his -2 and Repeated Reverberation. Which doesn't work. That just gives them 2 additional copies of their next spell (which was Frantic Search). Since they had the wrong cards for the combo, we didn't just lose.
I ended up drawing a Winds of Abandon to exile my opponents' creatures, but we ran out of time as the store was closing. We started the game with 1.5 hours available to us and I felt that the other players were playing a little on the slow side. Unfortunate, especially for a deck like this that generally plays for the long game, but it is what it is. I think that with Winds, and a few cards in my hand and my board, I probably was sitting in a pretty good position. I don't know what everyone else had, but I think I could have killed at least one player that turn.
Overall, the game went well and I saw my Whitemane Lion along with Land Tax, Ephemerate, and Phantasmal Image. Lion I commented on above and it did help get me out of a rough situation. It was basically how I expected to play out with "cast Lion, bounce Lion, draw a card" so it did have a repetitive feel to it. I wasn't excited about it, but it helped. I am hoping I get more situations where I can use the Lion to save something rather than just spamming it to draw cards.
Ephemerate was good and I liked being able to save my Artisans and get an additional draw for free when I blinked the Artisans again off Rebound. Image let me copy an opponent's Zacama, Primal Calamity to ramp me pretty hard for the turn. I ended up exiling it with Ghostway and getting an animated Forest from Ghalta and it stayed a Forest for the rest of the game.
Land Tax though was disappointing. I did get it down and, luckily, one player had more lands than I did. I grabbed 3 basics to thin my deck (I had 2 or 3 lands in hand already) and just discarded 2 at the end of the turn. I did this twice before it got blown up. I was excited about using it to shuffle away the terrible cards I had on top of my library (which I had seen with Sensei's Divining Top) but that is when it got blown up so I didn't even get to do that.
I like the idea of the card but it hasn't really shown itself to be worth it yet. I am going to let it stick around for at least one more game but I think I am slowly moving towards cutting it.
I mostly play land tax for how good it is in the opening hand, much like Tithe it's not amazing late game - honestly if I could play another copy of tithe instead at this point I might just because of how annoying it can be to draw late (vs. tithe which is quite flexible). I've kept enough Plains+Land Tax hands over the years I really appreciate it. But the floor is pretty low. It's really surprising to see people killing it though heh.
I'm glad to see ephemerate working well. It's been basically some degree of bananas every time I play it.
I'm glad to see ephemerate working well. It's been basically some degree of bananas every time I play it.
To be fair, it was killed by Akroma's Vengeance so it wasn't like someone sent a removal spell specifically for it. I was thinking of replacing it with Tithe since I never put that in. I know that it gets me fewer lands over the course of the entire game, but it is always at least 1 land whereas Land Tax could be 0 lands. Not necessarily likely, but still a concern.
In the game last night, I took forever to even get to my first creature beyond Whitemane Lion (I think Angel of Finality was my first one) and Ephemerate was still decent. Hopefully in games where I actually get the number of creatures I want, it is even better
In the game last night, I took forever to even get to my first creature beyond Whitemane Lion (I think Angel of Finality was my first one) and Ephemerate was still decent. Hopefully in games where I actually get the number of creatures I want, it is even better
It can get a bit repetitive lioning but I find the stack interaction it provides with stuff like spell queller and venser, shaper savant and even reusing snapcaster mage makes it really fun once the creature train gets rolling. Basically every time I have played it I've done some kinda shenanigan with it, It's usually the goto after recruiter → soulherder.
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shermanido37
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I have Scroll Rack in my deck in place of most peoples' Top. The tax+rack combo is well known in its power, plus I like Rack's ability to set Miracle plays and shuffle away bad hands with fetchlands and the like. If nothing else it effectively doubles hand size.
I also like my ability to tutor for it with Muddle or Tribute Mage.
My rationale with Tax is that it either triggers, giving you cards and thinning your deck, or it doesn't trigger, in which case your opponents probably aren't threatening at all.
I also like my ability to tutor for it with Muddle or Tribute Mage.
My rationale with Tax is that it either triggers, giving you cards and thinning your deck, or it doesn't trigger, in which case your opponents probably aren't threatening at all.
Yeah that is a pretty good point re: tax, most of the time if everyone has fewer lands than you you're in a damn good place (Exception being huge mana rocks and mana doublers, but generally those are ephemeral).shermanido37 wrote: ↑4 years agoI have Scroll Rack in my deck in place of most peoples' Top. The tax+rack combo is well known in its power, plus I like Rack's ability to set Miracle plays and shuffle away bad hands with fetchlands and the like. If nothing else it effectively doubles hand size.
I also like my ability to tutor for it with Muddle or Tribute Mage.
My rationale with Tax is that it either triggers, giving you cards and thinning your deck, or it doesn't trigger, in which case your opponents probably aren't threatening at all.
I will admit I've played a lot of scroll rack and I could see it being good in this deck. Given the general quantity of cards we have and the volume of shuffle effects I have, it's probably quite good. It's also very good defense against getting wheeled, which I have used it for in the past.
I played tonight against Teysa Karlov and Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas.
I landed a Land Tax turn 1 and this ensured I hit my land drops throughout the game. It never got removed and I ended the game with about 18 cards in hand, 11 of them being lands, thanks to Land Tax. I got all my basics out of my deck do I would draw fewer lands so that was nice.
In the early game, Teysa really jumped ahead. They got a pretty big board and ended up getting me down to 12 life pretty quickly. Luckily, I drew into Resolute Archangel to get me back to 40.
I ended up wrathing once and casting Rift two or three times just to keep the board clear.
In the end, I had a Soulherder with 6 counters on it, a Faerie Artisans to trigger Ephara every turn, an Eldrazi Displacer to blink what I needed, and a Venser Shaper Savant. The interaction with Venser and Displacer was really good as it allowed me to keep important spells from resolving.
At one point, my opponent had an Avacyn, Angel of Hope which I could blink to get a copy of whenever I wanted. Another time, Teysa tried to cast Merciless Eviction but I was able to flash in a Spellseeker for my Mana Drain.
One other play was an Ephemerate on Venser to bounce a Living Death back to Teysa's hand. I didn't do much with the rebound, but it still drew me two cards and saved my board.
All in all, everything worked out very well. I finally got to see Land Tax do something and I liked what I saw. Nothing stood out as being out of place or not being useful. I don't really have anything bad to say about any cards I saw in the game tonight.
I landed a Land Tax turn 1 and this ensured I hit my land drops throughout the game. It never got removed and I ended the game with about 18 cards in hand, 11 of them being lands, thanks to Land Tax. I got all my basics out of my deck do I would draw fewer lands so that was nice.
In the early game, Teysa really jumped ahead. They got a pretty big board and ended up getting me down to 12 life pretty quickly. Luckily, I drew into Resolute Archangel to get me back to 40.
I ended up wrathing once and casting Rift two or three times just to keep the board clear.
In the end, I had a Soulherder with 6 counters on it, a Faerie Artisans to trigger Ephara every turn, an Eldrazi Displacer to blink what I needed, and a Venser Shaper Savant. The interaction with Venser and Displacer was really good as it allowed me to keep important spells from resolving.
At one point, my opponent had an Avacyn, Angel of Hope which I could blink to get a copy of whenever I wanted. Another time, Teysa tried to cast Merciless Eviction but I was able to flash in a Spellseeker for my Mana Drain.
One other play was an Ephemerate on Venser to bounce a Living Death back to Teysa's hand. I didn't do much with the rebound, but it still drew me two cards and saved my board.
All in all, everything worked out very well. I finally got to see Land Tax do something and I liked what I saw. Nothing stood out as being out of place or not being useful. I don't really have anything bad to say about any cards I saw in the game tonight.
I played last night against Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas, Thraximundar, and (I think) Tishana, Voice of Thunder.
I started the game off by stealing Kalemne with Gilded Drake and then Phyrexian Metamorph to copy the Drake to steal Adarkar Valkyrie (also from the Kalemne player) Adarkar Valkyrie was huge in this game just to draw me cards. I cast Ephara next turn followed by Selfless Spirit so I just kept sacrificing the Spirit and getting it back with Valkyrie to draw an extra card each turn cycle.
Things progressed somewhat slowly but I had the 2 cards mentioned above which gave me pretty good blockers. Eventually, Thrax got down Kaervek the Merciless along with Gratuitous Violence. I ended up having to cast Winds of Abandon to get rid of it along with a bunch of other stuff Kalemne had. It ramped them pretty hard but they had no cards in hand so it wasn't a big deal.
At one point Thrax tried to activate their Magus of the Wheel but I cast Disallow to stop it since I didn't want other people to get new hands. I actually had Timetwister in hand for pretty much the entire game but I didn't want to cast it for this reason.
I was able to slowly build up a board of Cloudblazer, Restoration Angel, and a few other things that allowed me to attack with Ephara and some flyers. Using these I was able to get some shots in and was able to close out the game with these creatures.
Nothing more to really report. I didn't see Land Tax but I never really needed it. Torrential Gearhulk is still one I am considering cutting if I can find something better for it. Brazen Borrower finally made and appearance and it bounced something important. I think I only cast it just to get an Ephara trigger; as a creature it is not very good.
I plan on going through some of the more likely inclusions for this deck from Theros: Beyond Death so I hope to do that this weekend and type up a summary of ones I think could, and couldn't, make the cut.
I started the game off by stealing Kalemne with Gilded Drake and then Phyrexian Metamorph to copy the Drake to steal Adarkar Valkyrie (also from the Kalemne player) Adarkar Valkyrie was huge in this game just to draw me cards. I cast Ephara next turn followed by Selfless Spirit so I just kept sacrificing the Spirit and getting it back with Valkyrie to draw an extra card each turn cycle.
Things progressed somewhat slowly but I had the 2 cards mentioned above which gave me pretty good blockers. Eventually, Thrax got down Kaervek the Merciless along with Gratuitous Violence. I ended up having to cast Winds of Abandon to get rid of it along with a bunch of other stuff Kalemne had. It ramped them pretty hard but they had no cards in hand so it wasn't a big deal.
At one point Thrax tried to activate their Magus of the Wheel but I cast Disallow to stop it since I didn't want other people to get new hands. I actually had Timetwister in hand for pretty much the entire game but I didn't want to cast it for this reason.
I was able to slowly build up a board of Cloudblazer, Restoration Angel, and a few other things that allowed me to attack with Ephara and some flyers. Using these I was able to get some shots in and was able to close out the game with these creatures.
Nothing more to really report. I didn't see Land Tax but I never really needed it. Torrential Gearhulk is still one I am considering cutting if I can find something better for it. Brazen Borrower finally made and appearance and it bounced something important. I think I only cast it just to get an Ephara trigger; as a creature it is not very good.
I plan on going through some of the more likely inclusions for this deck from Theros: Beyond Death so I hope to do that this weekend and type up a summary of ones I think could, and couldn't, make the cut.
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benjameenbear
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Thanks for the game reports, [mention]WizardMN[/mention]. One of my favorite things to read on these forums is game reports and I like your consistency in doing so.
Based on your list, I think that the Gearhulk could go. Archaeomancer is probably good enough for the job on the recursion element.
Based on your list, I think that the Gearhulk could go. Archaeomancer is probably good enough for the job on the recursion element.
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I do enjoy writing them I try not to bog them down with too many details and just hit some of the high points, but I think they are interesting reads.
That is my thought too (and Snapcaster Mage gets me Sorceries as well). I have a feeling there are a couple cards in Theros I want to try so cutting Gearhulk already provides a potential slot.
I try not to bog them down with too many details and just hit some of the high points, but I think they are interesting reads.That is my thought too (and Snapcaster Mage gets me Sorceries as well). I have a feeling there are a couple cards in Theros I want to try so cutting Gearhulk already provides a potential slot.
Of the cards released in Theros, here are my thoughts on some of the cards in the set. I didn't bother to go through every single card since the vanilla cards won't make it and some others are obviously too narrow.
Alseid of Life's Bounty - This card just doesn't do enough in our deck. I think it is great that it can protect Ephara even when she is not a creature but having a one-off protection, that is telegraphed, for things like Bounce and Exile just isn't enough.
Archon of Sun's Grace - If we had more Enchantments, this could be reasonable. It gains us life, which is often important, but the potential for triggering it is pretty low with our two enchantments.
The Birth of Meletis - This is an interesting card. It comes down before Ephara to help make sure we have the land we need (though it only gets a basic Plains). Then, if we can cast Ephara next turn, the token it creates can cause her to trigger which will get us a free card on the turn we cast Ephara. Not many other cards can do this. Gaining life is apprciated but 2 life is basically insignificant. I am leaning towards "no" on this card right now, but due to its cost and potential triggering of Ephara, it could find its way in.
Daxos, Blessed by the Sun - We are a creature heavy deck and we do want life gain. Daxos doesn't give a lot at a time, but if we start blinking things, or things just die, he could potentially get us quite a bit of life over the course of a game. The main issue is that he doesn't do anything else. And I don't think the life gain alone is worth it. But, being 2 mana means he doesn't take much to get on the field. Again, this is probably a "no" but I could see some builds that could want him.
Eidolon of Obstruction - We are not a taxing deck and even as a tax effect, this is pretty mediocre in EDH. Unless your meta is filled with Superfriends, and you think they might not always have the mana to pay for this, I would stay away.
Elspeth Conquers Death - Kind of high on the cost but removal, taking, and reanimation can be good. Realistically though, the main reason to include this is Chapter 3 and it is far too slow to be worth it for that. Another one I would lean away from including.
Elspeth, Sun's Nemesis - I like this better than Elspeth, Sun's Champion which was in here before. The life gain can actually be relevant and she triggers Ephara for "free". I am not sure I can think of a reason for or against including her. I think she is deceptively powerful but the Escape cost being 6 mana (exiling cards is a big deal) is probably too high.
Flicker of Fate - This is a much worse version of other options. Ephemerate gets a pass for now due to being 1 mana and having Rebound. This isn't even close to being good here.
Heliod, Sun-Crowned - Heliod is another intersting card. We often have issues with needing life, and we play plenty of creatures, so being able to gain life and buff our creatures can be important. He also turns Ephara into a 3 turn clock though I don't know the last time I actually came close to winning with commander damage anyway. He is one I am willing to look at a bit closer but I have a feeling that things won't line up often enough for us to gain enough life from him to be worth it.
Heliod's Intervention - I really like this card. I don't think either mode would be good enough on their own but having the flexibility of gaining life at an important stage late in the game or dealing with problematic artifacts/enchantments in the early game. At X=2 it is close enough to Return to Dust/Crush Contraband to make a reasonable comparison. At X=3 or higher, it starts to scale reasonably well. And, as mentioned with Daxos and Heliod, life gain is nice to have in this deck since games can tend to go long. I think this is one where I think I will try to slot it in. But probably over an existing removal spell.
Omen of the Sun - Flash is really the only reason this is worth talking about. It gains us life, which is nice, and it triggers Ephara. But there are far better things we should be able to do with 3 mana.
Reverent Hoplite - With our blink effects, this could make a decent sized army. But, 1 power creatures, unless we have a *lot* just don't do enough in this deck since we aren't attacking every turn. I think this is a good card; just not for this deck.
Shatter the Sky - Getting a card draw off of this is actually pretty decent. I don't think we often care if an opponent draws one card. But, we don't play a ton of true wraths anymore and Supreme Verdict is just better due to not being able to be countered. If you find you need more wraths, I would honestly pick this over Wrath of God (unless you meta really runs a lot of regeneration).
Taranika, Akroan Veteran - Pseudo-Vigilance for a creature isn't bad, and indestructible is nice too. Especially since we tend to have smaller creatures in general. But, I don't think spending a slot to *maybe* get 3 more power each attack is worth it.
Ashiok's Erasure - Another counterspell isn't bad, but it isn't a permanent counter and the effect that stops that spell from being cast doesn't really do anything in EDH.
Callaphe, Beloved of the Sea - Again, this is a tax effect that can help protect our baord from being targeted, but "really bad hexproof" isn't good enough.
Eidolon of Philosophy - This is a late game mana sink that is a very cheap way to trigger Ephara. But it doesn't do anything else and we should be drawing enough cards that the 7 mana to draw 2 cards just isn't worth it.
Kiora Bests the Sea God - Chapter 2 is basically the main reason to run this as it gives us a way to alpha strike someone if we need to. But 7 mana is far too high for this effect as Sleep does the same thing. Getting a token and gaining control of stuff are nice to have too but I don't think they will really do enough.
Medomai's Prophecy - This is another way for Ephara, the turn she is first cast, to draw us cards. Scrying 2 early in the game can be important and if we wait until 2 turns later to cast Ephara we get two cards out of the deal. But, it is slow and hard to re-use in this deck and we don't often want to cast something on our turn anyway so the ability can sometimes go to waste.
Nadir Kraken - This is one of the cards I am most excited for. I believe that the first couple turns aren't likely to yield many tokens as we don't often have a lot of extra mana to spare. But, in the cases where we do, this gives us an cheap and easy way to keep triggering Ephara and to get a big beater if we need it. I think this one definitely needs to be added to at least see what it does in the deck but the potential is pretty high.
Naiad of Hidden Coves - This is firmly in the "maybe" camp. We do often want to play on our opponents' turns, and getting a diiscount on our spells can help make sure we get to cast more. But, in my experience, we often really just want to cast one or two spells in a turn cycle until the late game where we would have the necessary mana for more anyway. I think the idea of the card is nice, but it isn't worth spending a slot on.
Thassa, Deep-Dwelling - Thassa is a much harder to deal with Soulherder that also allows stolen creatures to be blinked without worrying about them going back to their owner. Her activated ability is pretty good for defense in case someone is trying to go tall with a creature or you just don't want something to attack. I don't think it will be used very often on offense unless we are winning that turn. She is a pretty easy include in the deck.
Thassa's Intervention - This intervention isn't very good. I would rather have Dig Through Time and the counterpell mode seems pretty terrible. A normal counterspell would be better. Being an Instant kind of saves the card, but it isn't powerful enough to make the cut.
Thassa's Oracle - An alt win condition that kind of works with our overall gameplan of "draw cards" is nice. And the ETB trigger is effectively allowing us to choose the card we draw with Ephara when it enters. But, otherwise, it does very little. "Scry X where X is your Devotion" isn't something I would normally include and this is a worse version of that 99% of the time.
Thryx, the Sudden Storm - Another card where Flash is the only reason it is worth discussing. We have 10 cards at CMC 5 or higher which isn't nearly enough to warrant including something that makes them cost less. The uncounterable clause is arguably less important than the discount.
Wavebreak Hippocamp - Since we do often play on our opponents' turns, this could trigger quite a few times over the course of a game. It is only 3 mana so it comes down early. I wouldn't expect this to draw more than two or three cards a game, but even that might be enough. The main issue is that it is partly dependent on our opponents actually doing stuff we want to respond to. I think it is worth trying, but it is not a shoo-in.
Whirlwind Denial - In most cases, this is a cheaper Summary Dismissal that also doesn't hit our own stuff which can be exceptionally important if we are fighting over something we cast. The fact that they can get out of it by paying 4 mana makes this less attractive as players tend to have some mana available (especially other blue players) to simply negate the effect. I think I might be trying this over Dismissal though due to the reduced cost and not hitting my own spells and abilities.
Dream Trawler - Lifelink and flying is good. Getting bigger by at least 2 during our turn is decent. Drawing a card on attack is good. Being able to give it hexproof is good. If we were to look at this card based just on that, I would lean towards including it. But, 6 mana is bad. We just can't afford to spend 6 mana for a card that does basically nothing the turn it enters. So, unfortunately, I think this is a pass.
Altar of the Pantheon - Nope. The entire card works very well with Ephara, and it is ramp, but it is far too underwhelming for it to really make any sort of difference in the deck.
White Cards
Archon of Sun's Grace - If we had more Enchantments, this could be reasonable. It gains us life, which is often important, but the potential for triggering it is pretty low with our two enchantments.
The Birth of Meletis - This is an interesting card. It comes down before Ephara to help make sure we have the land we need (though it only gets a basic Plains). Then, if we can cast Ephara next turn, the token it creates can cause her to trigger which will get us a free card on the turn we cast Ephara. Not many other cards can do this. Gaining life is apprciated but 2 life is basically insignificant. I am leaning towards "no" on this card right now, but due to its cost and potential triggering of Ephara, it could find its way in.
Daxos, Blessed by the Sun - We are a creature heavy deck and we do want life gain. Daxos doesn't give a lot at a time, but if we start blinking things, or things just die, he could potentially get us quite a bit of life over the course of a game. The main issue is that he doesn't do anything else. And I don't think the life gain alone is worth it. But, being 2 mana means he doesn't take much to get on the field. Again, this is probably a "no" but I could see some builds that could want him.
Eidolon of Obstruction - We are not a taxing deck and even as a tax effect, this is pretty mediocre in EDH. Unless your meta is filled with Superfriends, and you think they might not always have the mana to pay for this, I would stay away.
Elspeth Conquers Death - Kind of high on the cost but removal, taking, and reanimation can be good. Realistically though, the main reason to include this is Chapter 3 and it is far too slow to be worth it for that. Another one I would lean away from including.
Elspeth, Sun's Nemesis - I like this better than Elspeth, Sun's Champion which was in here before. The life gain can actually be relevant and she triggers Ephara for "free". I am not sure I can think of a reason for or against including her. I think she is deceptively powerful but the Escape cost being 6 mana (exiling cards is a big deal) is probably too high.
Flicker of Fate - This is a much worse version of other options. Ephemerate gets a pass for now due to being 1 mana and having Rebound. This isn't even close to being good here.
Heliod, Sun-Crowned - Heliod is another intersting card. We often have issues with needing life, and we play plenty of creatures, so being able to gain life and buff our creatures can be important. He also turns Ephara into a 3 turn clock though I don't know the last time I actually came close to winning with commander damage anyway. He is one I am willing to look at a bit closer but I have a feeling that things won't line up often enough for us to gain enough life from him to be worth it.
Heliod's Intervention - I really like this card. I don't think either mode would be good enough on their own but having the flexibility of gaining life at an important stage late in the game or dealing with problematic artifacts/enchantments in the early game. At X=2 it is close enough to Return to Dust/Crush Contraband to make a reasonable comparison. At X=3 or higher, it starts to scale reasonably well. And, as mentioned with Daxos and Heliod, life gain is nice to have in this deck since games can tend to go long. I think this is one where I think I will try to slot it in. But probably over an existing removal spell.
Omen of the Sun - Flash is really the only reason this is worth talking about. It gains us life, which is nice, and it triggers Ephara. But there are far better things we should be able to do with 3 mana.
Reverent Hoplite - With our blink effects, this could make a decent sized army. But, 1 power creatures, unless we have a *lot* just don't do enough in this deck since we aren't attacking every turn. I think this is a good card; just not for this deck.
Shatter the Sky - Getting a card draw off of this is actually pretty decent. I don't think we often care if an opponent draws one card. But, we don't play a ton of true wraths anymore and Supreme Verdict is just better due to not being able to be countered. If you find you need more wraths, I would honestly pick this over Wrath of God (unless you meta really runs a lot of regeneration).
Taranika, Akroan Veteran - Pseudo-Vigilance for a creature isn't bad, and indestructible is nice too. Especially since we tend to have smaller creatures in general. But, I don't think spending a slot to *maybe* get 3 more power each attack is worth it.
Blue Cards
Callaphe, Beloved of the Sea - Again, this is a tax effect that can help protect our baord from being targeted, but "really bad hexproof" isn't good enough.
Eidolon of Philosophy - This is a late game mana sink that is a very cheap way to trigger Ephara. But it doesn't do anything else and we should be drawing enough cards that the 7 mana to draw 2 cards just isn't worth it.
Kiora Bests the Sea God - Chapter 2 is basically the main reason to run this as it gives us a way to alpha strike someone if we need to. But 7 mana is far too high for this effect as Sleep does the same thing. Getting a token and gaining control of stuff are nice to have too but I don't think they will really do enough.
Medomai's Prophecy - This is another way for Ephara, the turn she is first cast, to draw us cards. Scrying 2 early in the game can be important and if we wait until 2 turns later to cast Ephara we get two cards out of the deal. But, it is slow and hard to re-use in this deck and we don't often want to cast something on our turn anyway so the ability can sometimes go to waste.
Nadir Kraken - This is one of the cards I am most excited for. I believe that the first couple turns aren't likely to yield many tokens as we don't often have a lot of extra mana to spare. But, in the cases where we do, this gives us an cheap and easy way to keep triggering Ephara and to get a big beater if we need it. I think this one definitely needs to be added to at least see what it does in the deck but the potential is pretty high.
Naiad of Hidden Coves - This is firmly in the "maybe" camp. We do often want to play on our opponents' turns, and getting a diiscount on our spells can help make sure we get to cast more. But, in my experience, we often really just want to cast one or two spells in a turn cycle until the late game where we would have the necessary mana for more anyway. I think the idea of the card is nice, but it isn't worth spending a slot on.
Thassa, Deep-Dwelling - Thassa is a much harder to deal with Soulherder that also allows stolen creatures to be blinked without worrying about them going back to their owner. Her activated ability is pretty good for defense in case someone is trying to go tall with a creature or you just don't want something to attack. I don't think it will be used very often on offense unless we are winning that turn. She is a pretty easy include in the deck.
Thassa's Intervention - This intervention isn't very good. I would rather have Dig Through Time and the counterpell mode seems pretty terrible. A normal counterspell would be better. Being an Instant kind of saves the card, but it isn't powerful enough to make the cut.
Thassa's Oracle - An alt win condition that kind of works with our overall gameplan of "draw cards" is nice. And the ETB trigger is effectively allowing us to choose the card we draw with Ephara when it enters. But, otherwise, it does very little. "Scry X where X is your Devotion" isn't something I would normally include and this is a worse version of that 99% of the time.
Thryx, the Sudden Storm - Another card where Flash is the only reason it is worth discussing. We have 10 cards at CMC 5 or higher which isn't nearly enough to warrant including something that makes them cost less. The uncounterable clause is arguably less important than the discount.
Wavebreak Hippocamp - Since we do often play on our opponents' turns, this could trigger quite a few times over the course of a game. It is only 3 mana so it comes down early. I wouldn't expect this to draw more than two or three cards a game, but even that might be enough. The main issue is that it is partly dependent on our opponents actually doing stuff we want to respond to. I think it is worth trying, but it is not a shoo-in.
Whirlwind Denial - In most cases, this is a cheaper Summary Dismissal that also doesn't hit our own stuff which can be exceptionally important if we are fighting over something we cast. The fact that they can get out of it by paying 4 mana makes this less attractive as players tend to have some mana available (especially other blue players) to simply negate the effect. I think I might be trying this over Dismissal though due to the reduced cost and not hitting my own spells and abilities.
Multicolor Cards
Artifacts and Lands
I got another game in last night and did very well with it. I played against Zurgo Helmsmasher, God-Eternal Oketra, and Lord Windgrace.
I started off with Selfless Spirit on turn 3 into Ephara on turn 4. I didn't miss a land drop, though it was close as I had to draw into a couple. But, turn 5 I dropped a Land Tax and this let me hit my land drops for the rest of the game as it was never destroyed. I ended up with Eldrazi Displacer which kept Oketra kind of in check.
Even with that, Oketra was going off pretty well and Zurgo had cast Plaguecrafter and brought it back once or twice with Sun Titan so my board was pretty small compared to Oketra's. At the same time, Oketra had Divine Visitation out so their tokens were flying which I couldn't block. However, I ended up casting my Clever Impersonator to copy their Oketra. Part of this was because I really wanted to know how well Oketra would work.
At one point, with Oketra getting a huge board, I cast Winds of Abandon. It ramped them hard but got rid of a lot of their stuff. They then tried to exile my Land Tax and Ephara with Return to Dust so I cast Insidious Will to exile their Visitation and Idol of Oblivion.
I was able to create a couple of tokens with Oketra, and I used Eerie Interlude and Ghostway (which got rid of my tokens unfortunately) to protect my board. I had Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir out for a while which also helped quite a bit as Oketra had a Teferi's Protection in hand for a long time.
They also had Stonecloaker and were able to keep spamming tokens but I ended up dealing with them with a well timed Angel of the Dire Hour. The next turn, Zurgo tried to attack me with Zurgo for 16 (they equipped him with Embercleave) so I flashed in Selfless Squire to get 16 counters on it.
The next turn, Zurgo attacked Oketra to get them to 2 and attacked me for with Zurgo which I just blocked. Lord Windgrace then tried to Comet Storm to deal 4 damage to me, to the Zurgo player, and to my Selfless Squire to kill it. I flashed back Insidious Will with Gearhulk to change the targets to the Windgrace player, to their World Shaper, and to a creature on Zurgo's side. The next turn I swung in at Oketra for 2 in the air to finish them off.
A turn or two later, since I had a pretty good board now, I was able to finish off Zurgo. I would have killed Windgrace but they had gotten back a Glacial Chasm so I couldn't do a lot to them. At one point, they cast Ribbons from their graveyard with X=8 while I was at 12 life. I contemplated letting it go but decided I didn't want to go down that low so I cast Summary Dismissal. They then responded to my counter with Fury Storm which would have copied it 3 times. I realized they misunderstood how the priority pass worked as they didn't hold priority so it actually worked out for them.
However, I had Nimble Obstructionist in hand which I used to counter the cast trigger from Fury Storm. I still took 8 but it did save me. Next turn, I cast Timetwister (which I had since the beginning of the game) and twistered into Resolute Archangel. I slammed that, went back up to 40, and then sat back just trying to get to a spell to bounce Chasm.
I ended up casting Day's Undoing a little later and then got Venser, Shaper Savant to bounce Chasm which allowed me to finally swing in for the win. Technically they scooped as we were running out of time and they were paying a lot of life to keep Chasm around anyway but I had just drew into Venser which they couldn't stop.
Again, the deck performed admirably. Gearhulk really saved me here thanks to the Insidious Will but even that isn't enough to keep it around. I still think that cutting that is the right way to go. I also think I still want to cut down on my clones. Again, this game had a clone do pretty well, but I think I might want something better in those slots. Oketra was really the only thing worth cloning all game and, after one Ghostway, my Clever Impersonator had to go away since there was nothing for it to copy which meant I lost a creature off of it.
On another note, I was really not that impressed with Oketra. I had talked about trying to find a spot for her and this gave me a chance to really test her out. I had her sitting out for about 3 turns without making a token because the creatures I did have in hand I didn't want to cast (they were things like Selfless Squire). The "loop" with Stonecloaker and Whitemane Lion is pretty good with her but I never got to it. I like what her potential is, but I think I am still too reactive to make good use of her without Stonecloaker or Lion. This showing suggests I should probably hold off on her for a little while.
Since this post is getting quite long, I will make a new one to discuss potential cuts to make room.
I started off with Selfless Spirit on turn 3 into Ephara on turn 4. I didn't miss a land drop, though it was close as I had to draw into a couple. But, turn 5 I dropped a Land Tax and this let me hit my land drops for the rest of the game as it was never destroyed. I ended up with Eldrazi Displacer which kept Oketra kind of in check.
Even with that, Oketra was going off pretty well and Zurgo had cast Plaguecrafter and brought it back once or twice with Sun Titan so my board was pretty small compared to Oketra's. At the same time, Oketra had Divine Visitation out so their tokens were flying which I couldn't block. However, I ended up casting my Clever Impersonator to copy their Oketra. Part of this was because I really wanted to know how well Oketra would work.
At one point, with Oketra getting a huge board, I cast Winds of Abandon. It ramped them hard but got rid of a lot of their stuff. They then tried to exile my Land Tax and Ephara with Return to Dust so I cast Insidious Will to exile their Visitation and Idol of Oblivion.
I was able to create a couple of tokens with Oketra, and I used Eerie Interlude and Ghostway (which got rid of my tokens unfortunately) to protect my board. I had Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir out for a while which also helped quite a bit as Oketra had a Teferi's Protection in hand for a long time.
They also had Stonecloaker and were able to keep spamming tokens but I ended up dealing with them with a well timed Angel of the Dire Hour. The next turn, Zurgo tried to attack me with Zurgo for 16 (they equipped him with Embercleave) so I flashed in Selfless Squire to get 16 counters on it.
The next turn, Zurgo attacked Oketra to get them to 2 and attacked me for with Zurgo which I just blocked. Lord Windgrace then tried to Comet Storm to deal 4 damage to me, to the Zurgo player, and to my Selfless Squire to kill it. I flashed back Insidious Will with Gearhulk to change the targets to the Windgrace player, to their World Shaper, and to a creature on Zurgo's side. The next turn I swung in at Oketra for 2 in the air to finish them off.
A turn or two later, since I had a pretty good board now, I was able to finish off Zurgo. I would have killed Windgrace but they had gotten back a Glacial Chasm so I couldn't do a lot to them. At one point, they cast Ribbons from their graveyard with X=8 while I was at 12 life. I contemplated letting it go but decided I didn't want to go down that low so I cast Summary Dismissal. They then responded to my counter with Fury Storm which would have copied it 3 times. I realized they misunderstood how the priority pass worked as they didn't hold priority so it actually worked out for them.
However, I had Nimble Obstructionist in hand which I used to counter the cast trigger from Fury Storm. I still took 8 but it did save me. Next turn, I cast Timetwister (which I had since the beginning of the game) and twistered into Resolute Archangel. I slammed that, went back up to 40, and then sat back just trying to get to a spell to bounce Chasm.
I ended up casting Day's Undoing a little later and then got Venser, Shaper Savant to bounce Chasm which allowed me to finally swing in for the win. Technically they scooped as we were running out of time and they were paying a lot of life to keep Chasm around anyway but I had just drew into Venser which they couldn't stop.
Again, the deck performed admirably. Gearhulk really saved me here thanks to the Insidious Will but even that isn't enough to keep it around. I still think that cutting that is the right way to go. I also think I still want to cut down on my clones. Again, this game had a clone do pretty well, but I think I might want something better in those slots. Oketra was really the only thing worth cloning all game and, after one Ghostway, my Clever Impersonator had to go away since there was nothing for it to copy which meant I lost a creature off of it.
On another note, I was really not that impressed with Oketra. I had talked about trying to find a spot for her and this gave me a chance to really test her out. I had her sitting out for about 3 turns without making a token because the creatures I did have in hand I didn't want to cast (they were things like Selfless Squire). The "loop" with Stonecloaker and Whitemane Lion is pretty good with her but I never got to it. I like what her potential is, but I think I am still too reactive to make good use of her without Stonecloaker or Lion. This showing suggests I should probably hold off on her for a little while.
Since this post is getting quite long, I will make a new one to discuss potential cuts to make room.
As of now, with a bit more thought of what the deck is wanting to do, here is what I am thinking for cuts to make room for stuff:
Metamorph and Impersonator are just generally not doing what I want the deck to do. There are some good plays with them, and they have been able to some good work, but their inconsistency and the reliance on other players' permanents (my stuff is small enough or works better with Flash so copying my own things is less appealing) means I don't get as much use out of them as I would like.
Brazen Borrower is a tough one but I am finding I never really want to cast the creature which means it is a 2 mana bounce spell. Still, not the worst, but I feel that there is bound to be something better I could put here. Maybe Evacuation or even Devastation Tide. Some mass bounce spell that could be cast at Instant Timing would probably be a good way to deal with board states that just need a reset. And, for my own stuff, I don't think it is the worst idea to to get to reuse stuff.
Sword of the Animist is up for consideration mostly because of the inclusion of Land Tax. Tax doesn't ramp but it is much easier for it to get me lands and I am finding that Sword isn't quite as necessary. While the 4 mana total isn't a huge investment (across 2 turns) I do find that forcing myself to get a creature down just to use it isn't what I often want to do.
Return to Dust really should have been changed to Crush Contraband a while ago but I am thinking that Heliod's Intervention is probably more worth it. It is the exact same cost to get rid of 2 things, doesn't have the same timing restriction, and can gain me some much needed life if I find that to be necessary. It seems like a pretty easy swap. The main concern is that Intervention doesn't exile but I think the flexibility of the spell is worth the potential of not being able to deal with something that is indestructible.
As mentioned in my set summary above, Thassa Deep-Dwelling and Nadir Kraken are the two main cards I want to try out in one of the slots above, with Intervention being a swap for Return to Dust as mentioned.
Gearhulk I mentioned above and I had it in my hand for the majority of that game without it doing anything. I got lucky where Insidious Will helped out, but I am thinking just a straight counter there or something else might be better.
Metamorph and Impersonator are just generally not doing what I want the deck to do. There are some good plays with them, and they have been able to some good work, but their inconsistency and the reliance on other players' permanents (my stuff is small enough or works better with Flash so copying my own things is less appealing) means I don't get as much use out of them as I would like.
Brazen Borrower is a tough one but I am finding I never really want to cast the creature which means it is a 2 mana bounce spell. Still, not the worst, but I feel that there is bound to be something better I could put here. Maybe Evacuation or even Devastation Tide. Some mass bounce spell that could be cast at Instant Timing would probably be a good way to deal with board states that just need a reset. And, for my own stuff, I don't think it is the worst idea to to get to reuse stuff.
Sword of the Animist is up for consideration mostly because of the inclusion of Land Tax. Tax doesn't ramp but it is much easier for it to get me lands and I am finding that Sword isn't quite as necessary. While the 4 mana total isn't a huge investment (across 2 turns) I do find that forcing myself to get a creature down just to use it isn't what I often want to do.
Return to Dust really should have been changed to Crush Contraband a while ago but I am thinking that Heliod's Intervention is probably more worth it. It is the exact same cost to get rid of 2 things, doesn't have the same timing restriction, and can gain me some much needed life if I find that to be necessary. It seems like a pretty easy swap. The main concern is that Intervention doesn't exile but I think the flexibility of the spell is worth the potential of not being able to deal with something that is indestructible.
As mentioned in my set summary above, Thassa Deep-Dwelling and Nadir Kraken are the two main cards I want to try out in one of the slots above, with Intervention being a swap for Return to Dust as mentioned.
Of those cards I think phyrexian metamorph is the best, because it's an enlightened tutor target that can clone something huge. Impersonator has made its way out of my deck for being more expensive and not e-tutor'able. But you don't run e-tutor, so I think it can be cut.
I find myself casting brazen borrower a lot but part of that is that I seem to be finding sword of feast and famine a lot. You don't run that, again, so it's not quite as good. A borrower+feast is going to close most games for me, and the spell half of it is good enough to take that risk. Also having a flash blocker for big fliers has been nice from time to time.
I don't want to be a big tutor proponent, but I would be remiss in not suggesting mystical tutor as far better than either heliod's intervention or crush contraband or return to dust. Searching for rift or capsize or nova is great. That said, if you don't want that play pattern, I would say that heliod's intervention is not something I'm planning on playing because of its limitations at dealing with hexproof/shroud and indestructible.
I'd prefer leonin relic-warder, personally, over any of those spells, if you have not tried it. It's been very good for me.
I played evacuation for a while and found it to generally be too durdly. The patterns it causes like archaeomancer locks are not fun. devastation tide bouncing Ephara is a hard no for me - I never want to be doing that, even if it sometimes is the right choice. I don't think you have enough ways to instant-tide for it to be that good (pretty much just top, I think?).
Other cards I have considered but not tried in those slots are comeuppance and aetherspouts, the former of which has been nuts in my Alela deck that never wants to bounce its own stuff.
For me, personally, I lean hard on windborn muse, muddle the mixture and mystical tutor to get me out of those jams.
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From your list I think I would cut the two clones first for thassa and kraken. Even as good as the clones are with Thassa, I always see Gearhulk doing work in your reports and have considered going up a couple instants and playing it myself. Gearhulking an AEtherspouts would devastating
I would try slotting in leonin relic-warder for return to dust, and leaving the rest to stew for a while.
Animist seems like it could get easily out of hand in this deck, and is a card I have long considered as well back before Feast and Famine started going off all the time for me.
Of my personal solutions for stuck board states, I think muddle the mixture being a serviceable counterspell that also finds cyclonic rift might be the most palatable to you, so worth thinking about that.
I find myself casting brazen borrower a lot but part of that is that I seem to be finding sword of feast and famine a lot. You don't run that, again, so it's not quite as good. A borrower+feast is going to close most games for me, and the spell half of it is good enough to take that risk. Also having a flash blocker for big fliers has been nice from time to time.
I don't want to be a big tutor proponent, but I would be remiss in not suggesting mystical tutor as far better than either heliod's intervention or crush contraband or return to dust. Searching for rift or capsize or nova is great. That said, if you don't want that play pattern, I would say that heliod's intervention is not something I'm planning on playing because of its limitations at dealing with hexproof/shroud and indestructible.
I'd prefer leonin relic-warder, personally, over any of those spells, if you have not tried it. It's been very good for me.
I played evacuation for a while and found it to generally be too durdly. The patterns it causes like archaeomancer locks are not fun. devastation tide bouncing Ephara is a hard no for me - I never want to be doing that, even if it sometimes is the right choice. I don't think you have enough ways to instant-tide for it to be that good (pretty much just top, I think?).
Other cards I have considered but not tried in those slots are comeuppance and aetherspouts, the former of which has been nuts in my Alela deck that never wants to bounce its own stuff.
For me, personally, I lean hard on windborn muse, muddle the mixture and mystical tutor to get me out of those jams.
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From your list I think I would cut the two clones first for thassa and kraken. Even as good as the clones are with Thassa, I always see Gearhulk doing work in your reports and have considered going up a couple instants and playing it myself. Gearhulking an AEtherspouts would devastating
I would try slotting in leonin relic-warder for return to dust, and leaving the rest to stew for a while.
Animist seems like it could get easily out of hand in this deck, and is a card I have long considered as well back before Feast and Famine started going off all the time for me.
Of my personal solutions for stuck board states, I think muddle the mixture being a serviceable counterspell that also finds cyclonic rift might be the most palatable to you, so worth thinking about that.
Mystical Tutor might be something I should think harder about. I tend to shy away from tutors as they make games play out too similarly in general, though in a reactive deck like this, it is more about having the right answer at the right time. I only have 2 tutors now (3 I guess if I count Land Tax; which I don't). My main concern with Mystical in this deck is that I have very little instant timing draw effects. That isn't to say I can't tutor up something in anticipation of drawing, but it doesn't really let me get something "right now". Not sure how much of a concern that is considering the other tutors I have aren't instants.pokken wrote: ↑4 years agoI don't want to be a big tutor proponent, but I would be remiss in not suggesting mystical tutor as far better than either heliod's intervention or crush contraband or return to dust. Searching for rift or capsize or nova is great. That said, if you don't want that play pattern, I would say that heliod's intervention is not something I'm planning on playing because of its limitations at dealing with hexproof/shroud and indestructible.
As for Intervention, your reasoning is why I am looking at it as a straight swap with Return to Dust/Crush Contraband rather than an addition on top of that. Hexproof and Shroud shut those down too so that doesn't really change anything with this slot. Indestructible does, obviously, but I am not sure if that alone is worth not going the route of using something that can very well clear the board (with enough mana) or gain me some much needed life. I have been finding myself digging and digging to get to Archangel and she has saved me too many times to count. I am thinking that some other mass lifegain effect could be warranted.
Perhaps though, Indestructible is enough of a concern to warrant re-thinking Intervention. I am still solidly on the Intervention route right now, but it is also possible that going this route leads me to wanting to keep Brazen Borrower for the bounce effect when needed.
I used to use it and I didn't like the temporary nature of it. It generally turned situations into protecting the Relic-Warder at all costs when I really didn't want to spend resources on it. With Eldrazi Displacer it becomes exceptionally better, but that one card interaction wasn't enough to keep it around.I'd prefer leonin relic-warder, personally, over any of those spells, if you have not tried it. It's been very good for me.
Those are fair points. My thought with Tide was that Ephara herself could allow it to be cast for Miracle though Top (and Tutor if I added it) would be the only real ways of "controlling" when I drew it. I agree that an Evacuation/Mancer lock isn't really fun (I already think the Mancer/Ghostway/Interlude lock isn't that fun) so that might be enough of a reason to leave it out.I played evacuation for a while and found it to generally be too durdly. The patterns it causes like archaeomancer locks are not fun. devastation tide bouncing Ephara is a hard no for me - I never want to be doing that, even if it sometimes is the right choice. I don't think you have enough ways to instant-tide for it to be that good (pretty much just top, I think?).
Other cards I have considered but not tried in those slots are comeuppance and aetherspouts, the former of which has been nuts in my Alela deck that never wants to bounce its own stuff.
I kind of forgot about Comeuppance since I haven't used it in years. But that might be exactly what I am looking for. I like Aetherspouts too but I kind of want something to deal with damage, or threats, outside of combat. I might have to find a spot for Aetherspouts anyway. It does seem like it could really set someone back. The main issue with mass bounce is that players can just cast everything again and Aetherspouts stops that which is nice. It does only affect one player but, presumably, that is the aggro player anyway.
I am opening up more to the idea of Mystical Tutor, but I don't really like the others. Muddle is effectively just going to get me Cyclonic Rift or Winds of Abandon every time which seems boring. I know I have some decent 2 drop creatures but I feel that the reason for including it would be to get one of those two spells. At least Mystical is a little more broad in what I would potentially get.For me, personally, I lean hard on windborn muse, muddle the mixture and mystical tutor to get me out of those jams.
I am not sure I have a good reason for not liking Muse but it just isn't something I really feel I want to have. It is "easily" gotten around though most aggro decks are either tapping out or swarming so it does do a lot of work against them. I will keep it in the back of my mind for now, but I don't think I will get to including it.
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I think you are right on the clones and I think Thassa will be exceptionally powerful. I want to try out Kraken and see what it actually does. It is another card that should be good on paper, but I want to see what it does in practice since it could cost more mana in the long run than I am willing to spend.From your list I think I would cut the two clones first for thassa and kraken. Even as good as the clones are with Thassa, I always see Gearhulk doing work in your reports and have considered going up a couple instants and playing it myself. Gearhulking an AEtherspouts would devastating
If I include Aetherspouts, I can see the argument that Gearhulk should stay just for that. I will probably hold off on cutting Gearhulk for now anyway.
I think I am leaning towards whether I need it. I have had games where it did get me 8-10 lands, but at the same time, some of those games were ones I missed 4-5 land drops. I am not sure the ramp is necessary if I have Land Tax to ensure my land drops. I know I am not ramping anymore, but there is a possibility I don't need to.Animist seems like it could get easily out of hand in this deck, and is a card I have long considered as well back before Feast and Famine started going off all the time for me.
I do know that I drew into it off a Twister yesterday and was disappointed it wasn't something better. This might be my bigger issue with it: it really is not a good card for the deck's game plan overall so, unless I get it down turn 2, and as the game drags on, I really don't want it. Or, at least, I don't want to draw it.
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Of course, while typing all that out, I did have some "meta-thoughts" about Muddle the Mixture and Mystical Tutor that I wanted to express. Some of these contradict my comments above but I think they might be worth thinking about:
A lot of the discussion above is mostly around answers. Return to Dust/Heliod's Intervention/Leonin Relic-Warder, Aetherspouts and Compeuppance, Evacuation and Devastation Tide, Brazen Borrower, etc. If I look at my list as it currently is, I have a lot of redundancy in a lot of effects. Which, all in all, isn't necessarily a bad thing. But, the train of thought I started with above was more about "how do I add *better* redundant spells so I have the effect when I need it?" which might not be the way I should be thinking about it.
That is, instead of adding Comeuppance to Selfless Squire and Teferi's Protection, and instead of adding Aetherspouts to Cyclonic Rift and Angel of the Dire Hour, why not just work to "duplicate" those spells. That is, of course, where Mystical Tutor and Muddle the Mixture come into play (though neither can get the creatures I mentioned). For the time being, I am ignoring Muddle as a counter spell. So, instead of trying to find other effects to duplicate what I have, which takes up precious slots to find redundancy for different things, why not add "global" redundancy like the tutors.
Both of them getting Rift and Winds of Abandon means I don't really need to add Aetherspouts or Comeuppance. Both of them getting Heliod's Intervention means I can more easily answer artifacts/enchantments when I need to and I don't need another effect for it which means I might be able to cut Forsake the Worldly (accepting that indestructible stuff becomes more difficult to deal with and likely needs to be bounced).
Both of them getting Mana Drain, and Tutor getting other counters, means I could potentially go down a counter spell (though I don't run a lot as it is). Mystical getting Capsize means Brazen Borrower isn't as necessary and the need for Release to the Wind might be lessened as well. Gearhulk becomes a bit more powerful if I can cast Mystical Tutor again as well.
Muddle getting me Remorseful Cleric might reduce the need for Angel of Finality (though, I understand Angel can be blinked for more uses). Muddle getting me Gilded Drake and Phantasmal Image can easily make up for the loss of the other clones.
I don;'t know exactly where I want to go with all this, but these are just some of the thoughts on adding the two tutors mentioned. It might allow for a bit of "tightening" in the current decklist which opens up a couple slots for new cards.
muddle the mixture does an absolutely crazy amount of work for me -- I prioritize it over mystical tutor. Things I have tutored for historically that I remember:
(I missed my 4th land drop and had to tutor for signet to have any hope of hitting Ephara -- I eventually won that game off of Hour catching me up, iirc).
I run a lot of tutors, and it's a real slippery slope honestly, though I have shaved some effects over the years (thalia's lancers, tolaria west, and inventors' fair are ones I remember cutting).
The game is just kind of at that stage for me where playing a deck like this that is so kneecapped by not ramping hard I feel like I had to make some concessions to being able to find either engines or the right answers.
At one point my deck was really packed with answers and hate cards that were very situational, and I regularly ran into the wrong half problem in my deck -- where I would find eidolon of rhetoric when it was meaningless or peacekeeper when people wanted to combo out, etc.
I feel like you could probably stop at adding muddle/mystical and shave some of the wore more narrow answers (or even just mystical).
Couple side notes of varying degrees of connectedness:
1) mystical tutor telegraphs a little but it can be pretty good with Ephara, allowing you to guarantee drawing a counterspell on the next turn. I have done that a lot, most common being for forbid to seal a game. Play a creature, then mystical for forbid and pass.
And yet another I forgot: muddle cannot be countered easily in its transmute mode, so I have used to to play around people's situational counterspells -- transmute for a creature or a non-instant or whatever. People think they're cute when they try to dispel your enlightened tutor or whatever but you can't swan song a muddled altar of dementia
I made a CEDH player cry one time by muddling for a relic warder for his scepter with swan song on it
2) Leonin relic-warder can also be whitemane lion'd and ephemerated and stonecloakered and even capsized for a permanent exile.
You can also disallow the trigger bringing it back, or eerie interlude/ghostway in response to its trigger.
Personally the dumbest thing I ever had to do that I can recall was unexpectedly absent it for 0, then draw it, then flash it in with teferi
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Edit: And one more edit in lieu of spamming your thread -
Re: indestructible/shroud/hexproof
I try to make sure my removal deals with one or the other at a minimum. I don't play anything that gets beat at least one of those. My reasoning is that if all my targeted removal beats indestructible and all my sweepers beat hexproof, I'll have answers vs. most board states. Toss in a couple sweepers that beat both (terminus and cyclonic rift) and I'm loaded vs. all scenarios in a lower card count and my cards are more likely to overlap into resolving a stuck board state.
Obviously you still get stuck sometimes when you have just a cleansing nova vs. a darksteel forge lock, but I can't draw a second dead removal spell there (other than swords to plowshares which may still get the job done sometimes if the real problem is a creature being protected by those).
I am not sure that all makes sense but it's why I play unexpectedly absent over generous gift (or heliod's intervention).
,
I will admit the game I tutored for azorius signet was depressing as hell, and I wished I had oreskos explorer again that game
(I missed my 4th land drop and had to tutor for signet to have any hope of hitting Ephara -- I eventually won that game off of Hour catching me up, iirc). I run a lot of tutors, and it's a real slippery slope honestly, though I have shaved some effects over the years (thalia's lancers, tolaria west, and inventors' fair are ones I remember cutting).
The game is just kind of at that stage for me where playing a deck like this that is so kneecapped by not ramping hard I feel like I had to make some concessions to being able to find either engines or the right answers.
At one point my deck was really packed with answers and hate cards that were very situational, and I regularly ran into the wrong half problem in my deck -- where I would find eidolon of rhetoric when it was meaningless or peacekeeper when people wanted to combo out, etc.
I feel like you could probably stop at adding muddle/mystical and shave some of the wore more narrow answers (or even just mystical).
Couple side notes of varying degrees of connectedness:
1) mystical tutor telegraphs a little but it can be pretty good with Ephara, allowing you to guarantee drawing a counterspell on the next turn. I have done that a lot, most common being for forbid to seal a game. Play a creature, then mystical for forbid and pass.
And yet another I forgot: muddle cannot be countered easily in its transmute mode, so I have used to to play around people's situational counterspells -- transmute for a creature or a non-instant or whatever. People think they're cute when they try to dispel your enlightened tutor or whatever but you can't swan song a muddled altar of dementia
I made a CEDH player cry one time by muddling for a relic warder for his scepter with swan song on it
2) Leonin relic-warder can also be whitemane lion'd and ephemerated and stonecloakered and even capsized for a permanent exile.
You can also disallow the trigger bringing it back, or eerie interlude/ghostway in response to its trigger.
Personally the dumbest thing I ever had to do that I can recall was unexpectedly absent it for 0, then draw it, then flash it in with teferi
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Edit: And one more edit in lieu of spamming your thread -
Re: indestructible/shroud/hexproof
I try to make sure my removal deals with one or the other at a minimum. I don't play anything that gets beat at least one of those. My reasoning is that if all my targeted removal beats indestructible and all my sweepers beat hexproof, I'll have answers vs. most board states. Toss in a couple sweepers that beat both (terminus and cyclonic rift) and I'm loaded vs. all scenarios in a lower card count and my cards are more likely to overlap into resolving a stuck board state.
Obviously you still get stuck sometimes when you have just a cleansing nova vs. a darksteel forge lock, but I can't draw a second dead removal spell there (other than swords to plowshares which may still get the job done sometimes if the real problem is a creature being protected by those).
I am not sure that all makes sense but it's why I play unexpectedly absent over generous gift (or heliod's intervention).
,
Last edited by pokken 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
I don't really like the use of other cards to permanently exile something. Now, I realize that the first time around when I did have the Relic-Warder I didn't have Ephemerate or Whitemane Lion (I still don't have Unexpectedly Absent) so maybe the inclusion of those two make it a bit better. Also, Muddle being able to tutor for it might up its stock a little as well.pokken wrote: ↑4 years ago2) Leonin relic-warder can also be whitemane lion'd and ephemerated and stonecloakered and even capsized for a permanent exile.
You can also disallow the trigger bringing it back, or eerie interlude/ghostway in response to its trigger.
Personally the dumbest thing I ever had to do that I can recall was unexpectedly absent it for 0, then draw it, then flash it in with teferi
I will think more on it and see where I want to end up with the tutors to begin with. That might lead me to some more changes that open up some more slots I could use for things like Relic-Warder.
Yeah I don't love it, but there have been times it was the right thing to do and having access to it at its highs (winning the game with eldrazi displacer) is worth dealing with it at its lows (having to ephemerate it to get rid of a problem card forever).WizardMN wrote: ↑4 years agoI don't really like the use of other cards to permanently exile something. Now, I realize that the first time around when I did have the Relic-Warder I didn't have Ephemerate or Whitemane Lion (I still don't have Unexpectedly Absent) so maybe the inclusion of those two make it a bit better. Also, Muddle being able to tutor for it might up its stock a little as well.
I will think more on it and see where I want to end up with the tutors to begin with. That might lead me to some more changes that open up some more slots I could use for things like Relic-Warder.
For you I think the ghostway and eerie interlude cases are likely to be the highest point; being able to relic warder and blink your board in response to the etb is going to shut down a lot of games.
Oh, you play restoration angel too,
Ouch.
