Arcades Budget Defenders

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

I wanted to try something budget friendly so I stuck to cards in the $5 or less pricetag at the time of building this deck. As of me creating this list the price tag using the built in price tab puts it at just over $100 for the deck. Its was a bit of a pain in the ass on the landbase but I think it might be servicable given that the deck likely wants to play its commander on four before playing the walls. It hurt a little not including sweet cards like Cyclonic Rift but price tag wise I had to let it go for this project. I wanted something to be so cheap that I didn't really even need to hesitate on lending it out as a deck and with it being so cheap I can get away with it not really eating up any real resources. That means it more likely gets to stay together regardless of what else I am building because well, it isn't using up any real resources.

The concept is fairly simple. Its just fire out a bunch of walls and attack ppl with them. Its probably a tad commander centric which has me questioning if I want to include more protection sources or not but a lot of those require opponents to be playing lots of spot removal and come after me which.... is kind of rude to a $100 deck but I feel like the deck is probably well enough constructed that it likely will draw some hate on its commander if people have spot removal. I guess I might be a bit reactive on that but I do see it as a potential problem which might push me to run more cards like Gods Willing.


Decklist

COMMANDER (1)

PLANESWALKER (1)

Approximate Total Cost:

Last edited by ISBPathfinder 2 years ago, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

High Alert might be a good backup plan if Arcades gets popped. I realize you have many ways to protect him, but... Also, Steel Wall and Wall of Runes are cheap. I would probably play Talisman of Curiosity and Talisman of Unity over the two like-colored signets. Those two talismans fit into your budget criteria.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I always really enjoyed Shield Sphere in these decks - technically $5 I guess but...meh :) real price is a lot less.

and you have it already! Reading comp failure. :)


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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
High Alert might be a good backup plan if Arcades gets popped. I realize you have many ways to protect him, but... Also, Steel Wall and Wall of Runes are cheap. I would probably play Talisman of Curiosity and Talisman of Unity over the two like-colored signets. Those two talismans fit into your budget criteria.
I did think about Assault Formation and High Alert but my problem is a little bit that I don't really see the point. I would have to have them in play at the same time as my commander to not get blown out by interaction as I go to attack or stopping me from attacking in the first place which exposes me more to sweepers that might take both out. If I try to play them as a "in case my commander is answered" then why not just recast my commander instead? I always sort of hate effects that are just redundancy with the commander because I always have the question of why don't I just fight over defending the commander or ramping into them / recasting them instead. I usually go for ramp / protection over redundancy myself.

Cheap walls - I don't know that I have a ton of incentive to run more cheap walls. I get that there are a few that have some upside or another but in the end I was a bit questionable on the 0/3 and 0/4 walls with little to no other thing going on with them. Scry one just isn't something I am excited to pick up and I feel like they aren't that impressive in combat. It is possible that I might want Wall of Tanglecord given its size and reasonably cheap cost but I don't know that I am as excited for the cheap one drop walls that don't have that great of size. I wanted to do some test games first and see where I stand after those. Most of the ones I included felt like they had some level of utility that I felt was useful and wanted or had flying.

Talismans vs Signets - Signets can be a bit of a pain in the ass as far as they take mana to activate but I think its superior fixing. Generally speaking the downside of them is more for decks that tend to be more responsive its harder to keep the signets up and use them appropriately but I think this deck is primarily proactive. Signets tend to be really good when you need access to a bunch of colors rather than a bunch of a specific color (like paying BBB for Necropotence for example signets suck for that). I will be honest that I really don't play Signets or Talismans on average just because my fixing is usually good enough in my landbase that I don't need to but my own sort of take is that Signets are fine for fixing in a budget concept. It is possible that I should run the Talismans over some of the green ramp in the deck just because its possible I could have a color issue on green which could keep me from casting my green ramp in the first place. I will give it a bit more thought as I am not sure offhand but its something I could see.
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
I always really enjoyed Shield Sphere in these decks - technically $5 I guess but...meh :) real price is a lot less.

and you have it already! Reading comp failure. :)
:D yea I agreed that it was worth running. Its in the list.
ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
Nature's Lore and Three Visits also barely fit into your price criteria. And, Profaner of the Dead is a decent one-sided wipe in a toughness-matters creature based deck.
Nature's Lore and Three Visits - I could get away with adding them but I am trying to keep the cost low. I get you on both as I have them in several decks already. I just think its adding $10 to the deck that I don't really need to do for this concept. It is a mild improvement but its one of those improvements that its such a low performance increase that you aren't going to notice it most of the time. If you are ever casting ramp on turns 2/3 you likely won't have some play that one more mana is going to help make and that is assuming I don't fetch a tapped land given that I have very few untapped duals in here. The real performance gain of these cards tends to be when you are running through tons of draw and you find that they more or less cost one mana to cast them instead of two as you try to cast your whole hand. In short, I could but I don't think that the performance gain they give is really worth justifying in a budget concept where I am already giving up a lot more obvious power like Cyclonic Rift.

Profaner of the Dead - Yea I could see it being an option. I think that tempo bounces are decent and this deck might be aggressive enough to make use of said tempo. I think that tempo is harder to pull off on a budget though. I will give it some more thought as I could see it going either way. The real question I have with this card is if someone bounce / kills / exiles it in response to its sac trigger if you still get the bounce effect or not. It sort of looks templated in a way that you wouldn't and that seems a little questionable if it doesn't.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Evacuation effects might be pretty good, especially since you could include a soft lock of Mnemonic Wall and Evacuation.

Might be a way to mass bounce that doesn't hit arcades too (maybe a power based one?)

come to think of it with Eerie Interlude, Mnemonic Wall feels like a good solid include

Paradoxical Outcome might be cool too :) I liked that in my budget arcades

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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
High Alert might be a good backup plan if Arcades gets popped. I realize you have many ways to protect him, but... Also, Steel Wall and Wall of Runes are cheap. I would probably play Talisman of Curiosity and Talisman of Unity over the two like-colored signets. Those two talismans fit into your budget criteria.
I did think about Assault Formation and High Alert but my problem is a little bit that I don't really see the point. I would have to have them in play at the same time as my commander to not get blown out by interaction as I go to attack or stopping me from attacking in the first place which exposes me more to sweepers that might take both out. If I try to play them as a "in case my commander is answered" then why not just recast my commander instead? I always sort of hate effects that are just redundancy with the commander because I always have the question of why don't I just fight over defending the commander or ramping into them / recasting them instead. I usually go for ramp / protection over redundancy myself.
Hmmm...I hadn't thought about it like that before. Thanks. I wasn't actually thinking that both cards had to be on the board at the same time, as you mentioned, in terms of a backup. I thinking as a way to get around commander tax assuming Arcades might be taken out several times. You'd at least have that card potentially available should the tax become too high. However, I like your idea of protection and ramp more. That's why you have four 3+ CMC ramps spells. Makes sense now in terms of helping pay for commander tax should you not have enough protection to keep him online. With that logic, I may modified my Arcades deck some now. I used to run a Wall-Ball Clone variant based on @benjameenbear ran, but I realized over time that I'm not really a combo player nor does my meta like it. So, I've been slowly morphing the deck into value-based combat deck.

I understand your logic for the cheap wall and talismans vs signets as well now too. Oh yeah, I was curious why no Sol Ring? That would at least pay for commander tax and help cast a few spells quicker.

Would you be willing to look at my deck and offer thoughts? I didn't place a budget restriction on it. Click on the mana symbols next to Arcades in my signature to access my decklist.

Cheers

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Post by benjameenbear » 2 years ago

Ah, good vibes from reminiscing on Arcades. In fact, I might have to rebuild it. Hmm...

Good to see you @ChocoDude. We had some good times on the Arcades thread and I always liked the discussion we had.

I think a card that would be super powerful for value-based builds is Reveillark. It's dirt cheap now and with almost all of the creatures in the deck having 0 power, 'Lark can basically get any creature out of the 'yard. It also has good blink synergies, which are really easy to find in Bant as well.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Evacuation effects might be pretty good, especially since you could include a soft lock of Mnemonic Wall and Evacuation.

Might be a way to mass bounce that doesn't hit arcades too (maybe a power based one?)

come to think of it with Eerie Interlude, Mnemonic Wall feels like a good solid include

Paradoxical Outcome might be cool too :) I liked that in my budget arcades
Evacuation is something I remember playing very early in commander. It just doesn't feel like it aged well to me. I get that I can control its timing but its all creatures and while I am an ETB deck keeping five mana up for it as an option feels a little heavier than I want to be on my instant speed options. I usually want things to be a little cheaper especially if its on some sort of emergency use card if and when I am not playing a deck that is heavily instant speed based.

Mnemonic Wall / flicker - Yea it seems fairly good. I suppose I could give in a little on my budget thing and allow Ghostway in. Ghostway isn't even that good of a card its just creeping up because its never gotten a reprint.

Paradoxical Outcome - Maybe I have had some mixed results with this card myself. I will probably start with ghostway for now. I think Semester's End could also compete with Paradoxical if I want to push the count up. I just really don't like how much mana it is to keep these up.
ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
Hmmm...I hadn't thought about it like that before. Thanks. I wasn't actually thinking that both cards had to be on the board at the same time, as you mentioned, in terms of a backup. I thinking as a way to get around commander tax assuming Arcades might be taken out several times. You'd at least have that card potentially available should the tax become too high. However, I like your idea of protection and ramp more. That's why you have four 3+ CMC ramps spells. Makes sense now in terms of helping pay for commander tax should you not have enough protection to keep him online. With that logic, I may modified my Arcades deck some now. I used to run a Wall-Ball Clone variant based on @benjameenbear ran, but I realized over time that I'm not really a combo player nor does my meta like it. So, I've been slowly morphing the deck into value-based combat deck.

I understand your logic for the cheap wall and talismans vs signets as well now too. Oh yeah, I was curious why no Sol Ring? That would at least pay for commander tax and help cast a few spells quicker.

Would you be willing to look at my deck and offer thoughts? I didn't place a budget restriction on it. Click on the mana symbols next to Arcades in my signature to access my decklist.

Cheers
Sol Ring - It could be wrong to exclude. It is sol ring after all but my reasoning was more that I wanted to fix / ramp on turn two rather than assume sol ring would get me to a faster commander / plays after. Sol ring only gives me one mana towards my commander the first play of him and while on a budget landbase and its not that likely to allow me to play my commander + a wall in the same turn. I opted instead to bump my two mana ramp / fix up a bit more instead thinking that it would be more consistent to my colors on curve and in most cases the two mana ramp effects results in just as fast of a commander play. In short, I think my landbase is a little so so and my commander doesn't take very good use of colorless mana in the first casting. Most of the walls concept is to play my commander first and follow him up as well so early fast colorless mana didn't seem like it was as useful as color fix based ramp.

Some things to consider adding to your list:
  • Fierce Guardianship is amazing backup / protection for the commander as it does catch a lot of the things that will take him out (not creature based removal but a lot of other things). I noticed you don't have one in your list which I would strongly suggest in any blue deck not on a budget.
  • Eerie Interlude - I saw the Ghostway in your list so I guess this suggestion shouldn't be that surprising.
  • Guardian Project / Panharmonicon / Teferi's Ageless Insight - I don't really know when enough draw is enough but these could work with the commander and some even on their own. I think Guardian Project is likely the best of them because it doesn't rely on the commander being in play but Panharmonicon probably has the most value added to them. I am not really sure if this is a route we should go but they have synergy with the commander. I opted to run Teferi's because of price tag :D
  • Earthcraft - Assuming its within the budget I think earthcraft is crazy in a deck like this full of cheap cantrip creatures. The fact that you can tap them the turn you played them to generate mana is crazy. It really allows some snowballing of cheap creatures filled with ramp.
  • Gaea's Cradle - I assume any creature based deck that runs Growing Rights but not cradle is doing it due to the cost. I don't blame you but assuming you have one / can afford I think its good in a deck like this.
Questioning a few things:
  • Delay? I would say a Fierce Guardianship or Mana Drain would be my own preference. If those are too expensive you might even just consider a budget friendly Arcane Denial or something of the sort. I just don't like Delay lol.
  • Dusk - I get the idea behind this card I just don't like its lack of flexability. Someone could have a ton of tokens, utility creatures, or even combo pieces and this card just lacks flexibility which is often why I don't run this effect myself. Personally I would add in Wave of Reckoning as it seems like its practically built for this deck.
  • Wall of Lost Thoughts - I don't know if I am missing something but..... why this card? The only thing I can possibly think of with this card is possibly if you set up some repeated loop with Cloudstone Curio but outside of that, I just.... don't understand its inclusion.
  • Meekstone - I have a bit of a history of hating on this card and its mostly just because big stompy creatures that repeatedly swing is just not a good tactic in this format. If you are lucky you can drop this after someone swings with an eldrazi at someone other than you but this is really not a good answer as it doesn't stop that first swing from hitting you and once its in play people will just save up to one shot you while this doesn't actually protect you. Swinging repeatedly with big creatures just isn't how most people die unless you want to consider Craterhoof Behemoth swinging with big creatures. My point is its sort of poor defense that seems to be target hating on voltron and some niche case aggro tactics which tend to be a weaker archetype of commander. I just think there are better cards out there and I don't like this form of defense.
  • Tree of Redemption - I am just going to point it out because its a big expensive wall that lacks any evasion or added value. If you want to keep it its fine but I think its very reliant on swinging behind some sort of added evasion or tempo based sweeper.
  • Tower Defense / Akroma's Will - I don't like them mostly because they are one shot effects that are entirely dependent on your commander still being in play after you cast them. Its part of why I shifted most of my buffing effects to be continuous effects rather than one shot ones. I don't know if my route is correct or not but I wanted to run buffs that even if my opponents interacted with my commander I would still have a separate threat other than my commander persisting through.
I am probably going to steal some ideas from you too lol. Some things I overlooked in my first draft.
benjameenbear wrote:
2 years ago
Ah, good vibes from reminiscing on Arcades. In fact, I might have to rebuild it. Hmm...

Good to see you @ChocoDude. We had some good times on the Arcades thread and I always liked the discussion we had.

I think a card that would be super powerful for value-based builds is Reveillark. It's dirt cheap now and with almost all of the creatures in the deck having 0 power, 'Lark can basically get any creature out of the 'yard. It also has good blink synergies, which are really easy to find in Bant as well.
Yea Lark seems fine especially with some of the blinking things I was doing. I guess its also worth questioning if I should move some of the one shot blinks to be repeat effects or not but the one shot blinks can save the commander from spot removal. I will probably leave them for now.

DECK CHANGES:
  • Wall of Stolen IdentityMnemonic Wall Making room for the recovery wall. It seems like it would be fun with some of the blink tactics I was adding. I really wanted to cut a higher cost wall for it so I guess this is me seeing off stolen identity.
  • Nylea, God of the HuntSlaughter the Strong Nylea seemed a little odd in this list I was just thinking that more options to punch through would be good but I think that sweeping and or tempoing the board will be fine. I totally didn't think about Slaughter until seeing it in ChocoDude's list.
  • WargateReveillark I thought a bit more about wargate but I can't cast it unless I have already fixed and I have no utility lands. I don't mind just not really having tutors given how much redundancy I have in what my creatures do.
  • Gatecreeper VineStalwart Shield-Bearers I overlooked the fact that this wall is an anthem. The vine was also really bad and I don't think I was going to be impressed with it.
  • Rampant GrowthSakura-Tribe Elder I think this is a small buff but tribe elder can block the turn I play it.
  • The Birth of MeletisGhostway I am not really sure on Birth... It does give a little extra value and it makes a wall but the wall is delayed and I am not crazy about that. Ghostway is a lot of value where as birth seemed like a small acceptable jumble of stuff.
I am not crazy about adding Ghostway given its price tag but that seems to almost entirely be based on its lack of reprints given that Eerie Interlude is actually strictly better and its like $1 card. I own a copy and I assume at some point it will get reprinted and plummet to the nothing value card it should be.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

With all your Cultivate effects I think Sol Ring is probably right for the deck. I'm more willing than most to cut it, but turn 2 cultivate, turn 3 Arcades, the Strategist is great.

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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

benjameenbear wrote:
2 years ago
Ah, good vibes from reminiscing on Arcades. In fact, I might have to rebuild it. Hmm...

Good to see you @ChocoDude. We had some good times on the Arcades thread and I always liked the discussion we had.

I think a card that would be super powerful for value-based builds is Reveillark. It's dirt cheap now and with almost all of the creatures in the deck having 0 power, 'Lark can basically get any creature out of the 'yard. It also has good blink synergies, which are really easy to find in Bant as well.
Hey Ben! Yes Arcades was my first foray into EDH. I didn't really have a clue what I was getting into then, but I learned a lot from you and Pufflex, and later Delta Moth. Good times. Thanks for the Reveillark tip! I'm going to see if I have a copy still.
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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago

Some things to consider adding to your list:
  • Fierce Guardianship is amazing backup / protection for the commander as it does catch a lot of the things that will take him out (not creature based removal but a lot of other things). I noticed you don't have one in your list which I would strongly suggest in any blue deck not on a budget.
  • Eerie Interlude - I saw the Ghostway in your list so I guess this suggestion shouldn't be that surprising.
  • Guardian Project / Panharmonicon / Teferi's Ageless Insight - I don't really know when enough draw is enough but these could work with the commander and some even on their own. I think Guardian Project is likely the best of them because it doesn't rely on the commander being in play but Panharmonicon probably has the most value added to them. I am not really sure if this is a route we should go but they have synergy with the commander. I opted to run Teferi's because of price tag :D
  • Earthcraft - Assuming its within the budget I think earthcraft is crazy in a deck like this full of cheap cantrip creatures. The fact that you can tap them the turn you played them to generate mana is crazy. It really allows some snowballing of cheap creatures filled with ramp.
  • Gaea's Cradle - I assume any creature based deck that runs Growing Rights but not cradle is doing it due to the cost. I don't blame you but assuming you have one / can afford I think its good in a deck like this.
Questioning a few things:
  • Delay? I would say a Fierce Guardianship or Mana Drain would be my own preference. If those are too expensive you might even just consider a budget friendly Arcane Denial or something of the sort. I just don't like Delay lol.
  • Dusk - I get the idea behind this card I just don't like its lack of flexability. Someone could have a ton of tokens, utility creatures, or even combo pieces and this card just lacks flexibility which is often why I don't run this effect myself. Personally I would add in Wave of Reckoning as it seems like its practically built for this deck.
  • Wall of Lost Thoughts - I don't know if I am missing something but..... why this card? The only thing I can possibly think of with this card is possibly if you set up some repeated loop with Cloudstone Curio but outside of that, I just.... don't understand its inclusion.
  • Meekstone - I have a bit of a history of hating on this card and its mostly just because big stompy creatures that repeatedly swing is just not a good tactic in this format. If you are lucky you can drop this after someone swings with an eldrazi at someone other than you but this is really not a good answer as it doesn't stop that first swing from hitting you and once its in play people will just save up to one shot you while this doesn't actually protect you. Swinging repeatedly with big creatures just isn't how most people die unless you want to consider Craterhoof Behemoth swinging with big creatures. My point is its sort of poor defense that seems to be target hating on voltron and some niche case aggro tactics which tend to be a weaker archetype of commander. I just think there are better cards out there and I don't like this form of defense.
  • Tree of Redemption - I am just going to point it out because its a big expensive wall that lacks any evasion or added value. If you want to keep it its fine but I think its very reliant on swinging behind some sort of added evasion or tempo based sweeper.
  • Tower Defense / Akroma's Will - I don't like them mostly because they are one shot effects that are entirely dependent on your commander still being in play after you cast them. Its part of why I shifted most of my buffing effects to be continuous effects rather than one shot ones. I don't know if my route is correct or not but I wanted to run buffs that even if my opponents interacted with my commander I would still have a separate threat other than my commander persisting through.
I am probably going to steal some ideas from you too lol. Some things I overlooked in my first draft.

I am not crazy about adding Ghostway given its price tag but that seems to almost entirely be based on its lack of reprints given that Eerie Interlude is actually strictly better and its like $1 card. I own a copy and I assume at some point it will get reprinted and plummet to the nothing value card it should be.
Thanks for taking a look at my deck @ISBPathfinder . Yes it's still in transition from the Wall-Ball clone. I threw in several cheap walls initially and once in a great moon I'll playtest it. So far, it's so-so. I was excited to see your post to get some ideas. AND...as I said before. I really like your logic in terms of simply protecting Arcades and ramping. I'm going to modify my deck over the next few days, but I've been super busy the last few days with work and family and I still have a few more to go. There are a few cards you suggested that just don't have. I don't actually have an unlimited budget, so currently I don't have Gaea's Cradle and probably never will. Thus, the Growing Rites. I don't want to fork out for Earthcraft. I'd like some Fierce Guardianships for my Varina deck and now this one, but that'll take time. I pretty much only buy/sell cards via Cardsphere so that I'm not really putting any extra money into MTG from my wallet. I have a single bid for a Fierce Guardianship in right now, but that's slated for my Varina deck which I LOVE to play. For now, I'm going to search my collection for some of the 2+ CMC green ramp spells and add them in. I did find an Eerie Interlude. I think I put Ghostway in there because I've running Lightning Greaves, so if I need to save Arcades with that attached I can because Eerie Interlude targets creatures whereas Ghostway doesn't. What are you thoughts on Lightning Greaves in here? That also reminds me that I need to put a bid in for a Giver of Runes in Cardsphere and search my collection for a Mother of Runes. (I think I have her.) I found an Ephemerate as well, so yay.

As for Tower Defense and Akroma's Will, I like the idea of combat surprises particularly with Akroma's Will, but I can take or leave Tower Defense. One question I've always had about Akroma's though, do you have cast it before you attack to get the benefit of vigilance, because that has always been a hitch for me? Then you basically have to telegraph what you're doing. But, I really like that card for a kill shot and the super-duty lifegain to keep you going. Speaking of which, you might like Perimeter Captain over Jaddi Offshoot. Jaddi may gain you more life, but Perimeter has a bigger butt.

Wall of Lost Thoughts I just threw in there and have already planned to take it out. Just haven't yet. I used Cloudstone Curio for looping when the deck was combo-based, but I kept it in thinking I could gain more ETB triggers by recasting walls. Your thoughts? I had Aluren in there too, but I decided it benefited others too much even when I had Lavinia in the deck. I'm trying to go way more towards tribal. However, I'd like to try several of the 1 CMC protection spells you have, so it won't be fully tribal.

Again, thanks for your suggestions. I'm going to take a few of them, the less expensive ones, quite seriously. I'll probably get it all in a few days. And now, I'm going to Cardsphere.

Cheers,
Dave

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Mother of Runes / Giver of Runes / Sylvan Safekeeper - I excluded sylvan because of its price tag even though I own a few but in short I think these cards are very good against spot removal, theft, and transform effects but they are weak against sweepers so it depends a lot how many sweepers you expect to encounter vs how much spot removal. For me, spot interaction is probably somewhere in a 3 to 1 or higher ratio to sweepers which has made them more appealing to me recently. I think there are metas that these cards really suck in and that tends to be ones where more sweepers are prevalent. Sylvan is nice if you run cards like Green Sun's Zenith as it opens up options for protection for that card.

Lightning Greaves - Personally I think its better as a haste enabler than it is for protection but it depends on your meta, how they play, and what kind of interaction they run. I mostly don't run this card but that is in part because I draw a lot of attention as a player and there is tons of instant speed spot removal and most players are willing to hit me in response to the equip. For me I would rather use a card like say Steely Resolve that I could curve before my commander and it doesn't leave opportunities to target when I do cast my commander. Greaves does still do some work I think where it shines tends to be vs theft and transform effects its just not expecially good when protecting the thing that you expect everyone to use spot removal on in a meta full of instant speed spot removal. I also think that greaves kind of sucks vs sweepers if you are in a meta heavy on sweepers. This is just me saying that it has its place and in some metas its great and others its not so great.

Akroma's Will - for vigilance you would need to cast it before combat. It also gives flying / protection which you would need to do before opponents block so, yea it does kind of tip itself off beforehand. The most concerning part of this card is that someone could just interact with Arcades in response and it does literally nothing.

@pokken My concern is mostly that there are a few other ramp things that I feel like I would need to line the Sol Ring up alongside. I think for now I will pass. I see what you mean and it would also pair well with the Signets but thats a lot of specifically stapling ramp with ramp in an opening hand and while I don't doubt it would happen I think its still awkward without the other ramp spells as well.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

So, cards came in the mail yesterday and I got this deck mostly sleeved up. There are a few small things I noticed when I was sleeving things up so I am going to make a few small changes.

DECK CHANGES:
  • Hadana's ClimbEssence Flux I will totally admit that Hadana's is a card that I have a soft spot for and try to force into lists lol. I kept looking at it and it really didn't feel like it belonged here as much as I wanted it to. The flicker effects seem like they will be good as both protection as well as value ETB triggers.
  • Skyshroud ClaimGolden Guardian I do think its important to keep the lands coming but I think given that claim is probably a post commander play rather than something I can use to setup up my colors like Cultivate / Kodama's I think I would rather be on something else. The guardian is awkward in that its fight against walls is going to not be great but its a defender with acceptable stats and it can potentially be ramp. I figured I would bring it in and see how things go for now.
  • 1 IslandMyriad Landscape I gave it a little thought and I think Landscape is still a good play even though its not really ramp into the commander its fixing and potentially lets me set up to cast the commander and keep the few one mana flickers up the turn after. I realized that I was sort of blue light in this deck so I am cutting my basic island count down a little more.
I don't know that I am exactly excited to be running Sylvan Reclamation but it does offer me mana fixing and it is also artifact / enchant hate which I felt like I still need. So, I guess it gets a nod from me for now I just don't love it. I could do something like Knight of Autumn / Reclamation Sage but the problem is I have almost zero creature tutors (I think Drift of Phantasms is my one exception of being a tutor for non lands). They would play into the flicker concepts though I just don't know that without more creature focused payoffs that its worth changing to something like that.
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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

So, I originally thought you were using single creature blink cards like Ephemerate etc to avoid all forms of removal. Then I realized/learned during a game that they don't work for board wipes, but work for targeted removal. Good to learn!! Thus, Eerie Interlude and Ghostway are generally saved for boardwipes, etc. What are your thoughts on Blacksmith's Skill? Seems like you could use it for targeted removal as well as destroy-type boardwipes.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
So, I originally thought you were using single creature blink cards like Ephemerate etc to avoid all forms of removal. Then I realized/learned during a game that they don't work for board wipes, but work for targeted removal. Good to learn!! Thus, Eerie Interlude and Ghostway are generally saved for boardwipes, etc. What are your thoughts on Blacksmith's Skill? Seems like you could use it for targeted removal as well as destroy-type boardwipes.
Its also worth noting that the blink cards are extremely cheap value generators. If you can blink a Wall of Omens for a single mana at instant speed and draw 2 additional cards for a single mana its an incredible value generator. Generally to draw two cards you pay like, threeish mana at instant speed but we can potentially pull it off for less than that. This isn't even getting into the options of Mnemonic Wall (which can recover the spell and draw a card which kind of makes it look like a multi use Blue Sun's Zenith kind of effect), Reveillark (which triggers on leaving play), or Floodgate to name a few other stand out blink targets.

In my mind, having my commander be targeted by target theft, spot removal, or transform effects is the most disruptive thing that can happen. If someone is sweeping the board they are slowing everyone down potentially so everyone has to rebuild. When you get hit by spot disruption on a commander centric concept only you get hit, it can also stop you from attacking that turn, you might need to recast the commander again, or it could even happen after attacks are declared but before damage leaving you in a situation that you have a bunch of zero damage dealers attacking into blockers. Protection for the commander is important but what I like about the spot blinks is they also give options to just jam for draw if you need it. In a perfect world I could see myself casting Arcades with protection up and then holding them as I play out my walls in hand. If I run out of plays and haven't needed them yet then I plan to deploy them as value additions to keep me going. They function as both cheap ETB / Leaves play triggers but also protect the commander for cheap.

The fact that they instantly bring the commander back keeps opponents from denying draw from a wall by removing him in response. It also allows us to still go to combat and or do damage in combat. I think its actually far better for them to immediately return him than for the end of turn return effects. I am not entirely sure what my plan is with the mass flickers because the proactive play for value seems strong as well. Keeping three mana up turn after turn can be annoying in a deck that has good draw (assuming things work).

Blacksmith's Skill - Its nice in that it protects from most everything. If you want something purely defensive I suppose its fine. I think that Gods Willing would also be something I would think about (from the standpoint that it has that scry in it) but Blacksmith's Skill is stronger from a purely defensive standpoint. I often have trouble with purely defensive cards like this from the standpoint that there are still things that just walk past them like Cyclonic Rift, Toxic Deluge, Tragic Arrogance, Living Death to name a few widely used effects. Its part of why I went for flickering because in all honesty the cheap cost and multiple function of the flicker effects while still weak to sweepers gives proactive play that I see as completely fine plays still. Its also worth mentioning that having more ramp also helps recover from being swept while also pairing very well with concepts of heavy card draw so when in doubt just jam more ramp and draw into a deck and it usually works out.
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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

Thanks for the 101! More MTG school for me. I appreciate hearing your logic behind flicker being proactive versus a more defensive card like Blacksmith's. Prior to Arcades, I hadn't really played a deck with flicker in it, so I wasn't well versed in the mechanics and the when and why. I have a Ranar deck that uses flicker, but I tended to use that more for token creation and really haven't played the deck all that much. I'm probably going to break it apart too since I guess Rest in Peace doesn't work with Ranar's ability anymore after an errata to Ranar. Bummer. Maybe I'll turn it into a straight Millicent spirit tribal deck.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

I managed to do a decent bit of 1v1 testing. I haven't gotten to get down to the LGS lately unfortunately but even 1v1 games are useful in seeing a deck execute its gameplan. I noticed that I seem to hit my land drops and then some so I think I need to cut into my land count and probably drop some of the over ramp concept I had originally with the thought of it letting me recast my commander. I wanted a few more walls but the big thing I noticed was that the deck runs itself out of steam sort of fast. I need a little more draw and over time sustaining sort of draw added to the list. The hard part is a lot of the good sustain draw is expensive cards so its a bit tricky to find things that fit the budget of the deck but I will do what I can.

DECK CHANGES:
  • CultivateExplore More two mana acceleration I guess. Explore is nice in that it lets me play a tapped land off of it and one before it. Its not really fixing for me but my fix has seemed ok so far so lets see if my landbase can keep fixing for me sufficiently.
  • Harvest SeasonLurking Predators Harvest Season just felt awkward. I had it in my hand once where I could use it for 1-2 lands and it felt really underwhelming for that. It probably ties back to me running out of steam and not playing enough walls but I need to cut this card for now. Lurking seems useful with or without my commander it adds a bunch of power to play and if I have my commander it results in draw and board presence. Its just above the cost I want on my cards but it seems like I have to stretch my budget a little for the draw I need.
  • Kodama's ReachWall of Mourning I am not convinced that Mourning will pay off but it might draw me additional cards and its a cheap defender.
  • GhostwayPanharmonicon the mass flicker hasn't been impressive enough for the budget going over on this card. I didn't realize that Panharmonicon had dipped in price with its reprint but its current price I think is in the range I am ok with for this deck.
  • Sylvan ReclamationUnexpectedly Absent Just changing up my removal a little. Reclamation is too specific in what it interacts with given how little removal I run.
  • 1 ForestJeskai Barricade cutting the land count a little. I have cut a lot of my basic land searching and with that I think I can cut my basic count a little. Barricade is kind of expensive given the bounce goes to hand but replaying a wall for more draw is kind of what I need right now.
  • 1 ForestWall of Shards cutting more lands. This wall is just really big and has evasion for the mana.
  • Rupture SpireTalisman of Unity cutting more lands. I think that rupture costing mana while doable is probably not the most needed of fixing. Lets add some more ramp I guess.
  • 1 PlainsGrazilaxx, Illithid Scholar cutting a little more land. There are a lot of variants to the Coastal Piracy effects and I am not really sold either way that this guy should be my pick but bouncing my walls has value as does the draw he offers on hitting my opponents. Maybe it should be one of the other versions but he is cheap and I want to test him.
  • Wayfarer's BaubleTalisman of Curiosity Bauble seemed good to me on paper but I started breaking down a few things with it and I saw it as a problem. Lets say you get bauble in an opening hand the optimal play is to play it on T1, T2 crack it, T3 commander. But, this deck has a ton of ETB tapped lands that it uses to fix on the cheap so if I don't have three untapped lands it screws that curve up kind of badly. Due to this I am going to move to Talismans which fix my mana and give me the advantage of freeing up a turn to have a tapped land.
I am not really convinced that these changes add quite enough card draw to the deck. I gave some thought to cards like Ephara, God of the Polis, Welcoming Vampire, Beast Whisperer, the plethera of Coastal Piracy variants, and even Monarch. My limited testing showed me that I have too many lands and too little draw though so its sort of where I started on changes. I think I can get some games in this week with this in multiplayer but my changes might be a little late for that so I will have to make some adjustments on the fly for the games this week. According to the built in pricing function on the deckbuilder these changes increased the cost of the deck by roughly $2.00 but thats fine I am still just over $110 for the deck.

EDIT: Soulherder might be something to explore too being quite budget and playing into things I want to do. I will likely put one in for now as I wait for other cards to arrive.
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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

Some recent deck changes. I decided to go away from all mana rocks and towards 2-CMC mana producing spells to put lands onto the board. Lands are less fragile than rocks. I net removed one land down from 35 to 34 as my overall CMC is quite low at 2.39. Cyclonic Rift is quite expensive at 7 mana, so ultimately it'll become Wave of Reckoning when I get one. I really like Akroma's Will and am willing to use it as a one-short 4-mana spell versus the 6-mana permanent. I decided I needed more card draw, so in comes Wall of Mulch and Toski at the expense of one land and a tutor. Delay is good, but not necessarily permanent. I have a Dovin's Veto I could put in there instead of Negate, but for now I'll stick with Negate. I figure I'll have more game variance with one less tutor. Hopefully it plays out better this way. Thoughts?

Sol RingNature's Lore
Arcane SignetThree Visits
CultivateFarseek
Cyclonic RiftAustere Command (for now, however I want to ultimate put Wave of Reckoning here)
DelayNegate
True ConvictionAkroma's Will
IslandDeserted Beach
PlainsWall of Mulch
Eladamri's CallToski, Bearer of Secrets

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