Rayami's Battleship

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 2154
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

I like the idea of a very sticky commander who controls the battlefield heavily by their presence alone. I considered if I wanted to go for a racing type of deck but I decided instead that I wanted something that could more survive for a long time both doing damage and defending itself. I could run extra turns and equipment or something to try to speed things up but I felt that it was enough work to set things up already plus chaining extra turns is SUUUPER lame. I probably could throw like.... a single one in but I have a few technically on some less traditional cards like Teferi, Master of Time and Savor the Moment. My goal here was to assemble a flying, hexproof, vigilant, indestructible, lifelink commander and slowly stuff my opponents into a box using them.

The basic idea is to pick up a ton of keywords and be hard to interact with while throwing in some disruption for my opponents to deal with. I don't have a ton of instant speed interaction in part because I was trying to focus more on sweeping the board and soaking up the abilities. The end game objective is to leave essentially nothing my opponents can interact with on my board while I continuously poke them to death with commander damage.


Decklist

COMMANDER (1)

PLANESWALKER (1)

Approximate Total Cost:

Last edited by ISBPathfinder 1 year ago, edited 40 times in total.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

Tags:

User avatar
Crazy Monkey
Arcane Themes
Posts: 571
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: New Mexico, US

Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

I have a similar deck to this, although noncreatures are limited to sacrifice-as-a-cost effects (Eaten Alive over Deadly Rollick for example), and I have less ramp with a lower curve. It's generally a very grindy deck, and I find the most important step after gaining hexproof + indestructible is to increase Rayami's power to 7+ and make it 3 hits for a kill.

I've had good results from Roalesk, Apex Hybrid and Necropolis Regent, and somewhat surprisingly Evolutionary Escalation because it keeps the increase in power from being a more vulnerable card such as equipment. Yawgmoth, Thran Physician also lets me set up Varolz, the Scar-Striped to pump up Rayami.

Creatures that you don't have listed that I've had success with are: I'm not sure that Valentin, Dean of the Vein // Lisette, Dean of the Root or Ice-Fang Coatl work as well in Raymi. Unless I misunderstand replacement effects, Valentin would allow your opponents to chose which replacement effect exiles , so there wouldn't be a blood counter.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 2154
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Crazy Monkey wrote:
2 years ago
I have a similar deck to this, although noncreatures are limited to sacrifice-as-a-cost effects (Eaten Alive over Deadly Rollick for example), and I have less ramp with a lower curve. It's generally a very grindy deck, and I find the most important step after gaining hexproof + indestructible is to increase Rayami's power to 7+ and make it 3 hits for a kill.

I've had good results from Roalesk, Apex Hybrid and Necropolis Regent, and somewhat surprisingly Evolutionary Escalation because it keeps the increase in power from being a more vulnerable card such as equipment. Yawgmoth, Thran Physician also lets me set up Varolz, the Scar-Striped to pump up Rayami.

Creatures that you don't have listed that I've had success with are: I'm not sure that Valentin, Dean of the Vein // Lisette, Dean of the Root or Ice-Fang Coatl work as well in Raymi. Unless I misunderstand replacement effects, Valentin would allow your opponents to chose which replacement effect exiles , so there wouldn't be a blood counter.
I have been talking to a buddy of mine who was working through the same commander in a slightly different way but we were both worried about the random vanillaish creatures that the deck runs. I started off with the idea that just shotgunning creatures and trying to rake in value from casting creatures might offset them via things like The Great Henge but the longer I think about it I think there might be some issues with consistency and the issue of how much people want to target cards like great henge.

I also did a little introspection on the commander and how they work. They really do a poor job of racing and trying to be a fast aggro commander given how much setup time it might take to get keywords as well as how 5 power has some issues in getting the job done. I felt like I wanted to slow the list down a little and go long to some degree. I think some of the power in that is that the commander can live through sweepers and even if he dies to opponents sweepers my rebuild time is low being that the commander retains most of his power when recast (outside of counters and pump effects to push faster clock). This makes me want to add a few more sweepers and tutors to the deck.

I think the idea of adding a little power to the commander to get to 7+ power is relevant. I want to see the deck in action first though before I invest much more space for that though.

DECK CHANGES:
I didn't neccessarily replace specific cards with others so much as I had a large list of cards I cut and a bunch of things I added so I will more outline them independently.

CUTS:
  • Valentin, Dean of the Vein - I included it originally because the back side could be relevant and the front side is cheap with abilities but I want to slim the creatures down and I don't love the keywords for this one.
  • Bassara Tower Archer - its more expensive hexproof and I felt like I didn't care much about it having reach. The GG casting cost can also be a little trickier early in the game.
  • Silhana Ledgewalker - two mana hexproof with nothing else to really offer. I am trimming some of the duplication and adding more tutors, draw, and removal.
  • Great Sable Stag - I felt like the protections it offered were the worst of the ones I was running and I don't know if I need protection or not to be honest.
  • Phyrexian Crusader - I like the protections of this one but I saw the price tag and realized I wasn't willing to shill out the money on this card right now. Maybe later if I like this deck and still want the protections.
  • Tomebound Lich - the abilities are ok and the looting is ok. I felt like with keeping most of the flying deathtouchers though I really felt like I had too much deathtouch and cutting a non flyer seems better.
  • Mana Crypt - I don't really need a lot of colorless mana and while it could still be a faster commander I am more going for robust stuff that goes through sweepers well.
  • Sol Ring - same with crypt. Trying to go long more than going fast.
  • Birthing Pod - with cutting down on the creatures I liked pod less.
  • The Great Henge - cutting back on creatures and while I think this is still alight, it gets removed somewhat fast when people see it and with cutting the creature count some I felt less certain on its inclusion especially as I added some sweepers that might kill it.
  • Village Rites - trying to remove individual sacrifice stuff and just having more land tutors instead.
  • Decisive Denial - Its a bit weak on both modes. I think its fine but for now I wanted to go with more on counters and sweepers than spot removal.
  • Plumb the Forbidden - cutting some of the sac outlets for more tutors.
  • Soul's Majesty - It was my weakest card that drew on power. I am adding Prime Speaker Zegana due to some of the creature tutors I added.
  • Yavimaya Hollow - I wanted to have a little less colorless lands in the deck and I didn't think I needed this effect as much as I shift to more of a control go long concept.
ADDS:
  • Hatred - It gives me the option to one shot opponents. Given that I can pick up lifelink and hexproof / flying / trample it seems like it could be a strong delivery option. I don't want to shift too much to being super aggro so I won't add extra turns for now but one shotting opponents seems strong.
  • Boompile - I have been fond of this effect for a while and I just need more means to slow opponents down.
  • Decree of Pain - The wrath portion and cycling portion both seem like they have reasonable functions for what I am trying to do.
  • Green Sun's Zenith - I broke down what I had left for creatures and decided that I had good targets for a variety of keywords and or functions.
  • Finale of Devastation - Relatively cheap tutor and I suppose a pump option later. I really just wanted more copies of Green Sun's Zenith.
  • Chord of Calling - More creature tutors I guess.
  • Prime Speaker Zegana - I totally overlooked her as a draw option earlier. Especially with adding a few more tutors I think she seems good.
  • Pir's Whim - Tutor for sac outlets and its ramp and disruption to opponents. It seems good.
  • Sylvan Scrying - I considered if I wanted something like Crop Rotation or some of the other options for nonbasic land tutoring but in the end I think getting a one for one out of scrying is probably better than trying to tempo into a utility land for this deck. I don't see as much value in something like Bojuka Bog here given the commander's graveyard hate effect and without something like that I don't like Crop Rotation as much.
  • Hour of Promise - More nonbasic land tutors and I like that it ramps me two lands with them being utility lands to boot.
  • Arcane Denial - Just adding a cheap counter. I like that its 1U since I am in a three color deck.
  • Sakashima of a Thousand Faces - I like the idea of cloning my commander given that they share the same card pool. I considered if I wanted to go deeper on it but I think starting with one and seeing how things go is where I will start.
  • Sylvan Library - Given all of the tutors and search effects I like sylvan. I also gain life with my commander potentially which can offset drawing if need be.
  • Necropotence - Good strong draw and its not tied to the commander.
  • Reliquary Tower - Lots of the draw I have is large burst draw. I might want to pick up some max hand size and I think on a land is the best fit for that right now.
Obviously this is a lot of changes and I can't really back them up with any testing yet. I did order cards for it which should hopefully be in this week. This deck has a lot of unknowns for me still so I guess I will try to wait for testing before I make much else for changes but I felt like I needed to slow the game down a bit more for this type of commander to really shine for me.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 2154
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

I managed to play this deck for a game. It actually went quite well but there was an early game Possibility Storm that dropped right after I played my commander while I had a handfull of 5-6 mana card draw that required my commander to play them that then kind of spiraled poorly on me. This deck full of weird jank cards and tutors doesn't do well with possibility storm that sticks literally all game who knew. I actually would have been fine but in the end the player who did the possibility storm set up an unblockable commander that then two turn commander killed me while I floundered. It was ironic because I kept finding things that stormed into nothing at the end. Like I could have just killed him with Hatred in hand but no that turned into a counterspell and did nothing lol.

Deck Changes:
  • Stonecoil SerpentCultivate I think that the serpent doesn't do enough for its keywords and it also kind of doubles on what my commander can generally do for me anyways. The keywords just aren't relevant enough for me I don't think. Cultivate is odd in that it doesn't ramp me into my commander but its sort of value ramp and I need just keep playing to the board and while it isn't ramp into the commander it might be an option to cast my commander with a sac outlet up the following turn.
  • SkullclampAssassin's Trophy the thought process here was that I could clamp kill some random jank dudes. Which.... is true. But the problem is when I realized that it stops the death trigger of drawing cards lol. Time to swap it out. I don't always love trophy given its ramp function but given my goal for this deck is to mostly stop myself from dying immediately I like trophy's low cost and high targeting options.
  • Beast WithinChain of Vapor just lowering the cost down making it easier to keep up. I like chain and with a potentially hexproof commander it seems good.
  • Deadly RollickEchoing Truth similarly above I am trying to keep my targeting as wide as I can while also keeping cost low. Its true that Rollick is cheaper if my commander is out but I like the wider targeting option of Echoing. It can also potentially shut down some token tactics which is great.
  • Finale of DevastationPainful Truths I do sort of want tutors to set up the correct keywords, but I think I am realizing that I also just need some level of card throughput. So, trading off a tutor for some card advantage here.
  • Sylvan ScryingLim-Dul's Vault its a card disadvantage swap but I like the much wider tutoring like effect of Lim-Dul's.
  • Eldritch EvolutionKodama's Reach I wasn't quite liking these sac to search effects. I often needed another sac outlet for whatever I was going to get. Lets just rock in with some more ramp value stuffs.
  • Traverse the OutlandsOppression I didn't see traverse in the game I had but I also want to lower the curve a little on the my turn plays. Traverse needs me to be sort of set up and takes a turn off to put me ahead. Its also sort of dictating how many basics I am running to some degree so cutting it I might run less basics moving forward. Oppression is mostly for these decks that just keep cantriping all day.
  • Hour of PromisePainful Quandary I am increasing my cheaper ramp and trying to limit some of the more expensive ones that kind of take time to pay off. I like taking this five mana play that doesn't really affect things and turning it into something that is going to cut into my opponents if they ignore it. I have been fond of this card for some time. Its possible that opponents just pay the life and ignore it for a bit but its a temporary move at best. I have seen too many players throwing a bunch of spells each turn lately and I want to punish it more.
  • Vivien of the ArkbowGraven Lore trying to push away from some of the expensive sorcery speed plays and at the same time I wanted to push a little more instant speed draw. Not sure that Graven Lore is the card for me but I was already pushing some snow land things and just decided why not.
  • Tyrite SanctumCavern of Souls a little more protection for the commander is all.
  • 1 Snow-Covered IslandGrim Backwoods I am not excited to include backwoods but I figure in a pinch I need sac outlets and its probably better to draw cards than it would be to gain life. I debated going so far as to include Diamond Valley given the Urborg and Yawgmoth lands in this deck but I couldn't quite justify it given its a land that will probably not tap for mana early on.
Really, I need to playtest this a lot more. I am not confident that I have any of my ratios correct but I also didn't feel like I was super far off. I wanted a bit more ramp and draw primarily in the game I played and I felt maybe a touch heavy on cards that required me to be setup with my commander offhand. Some of the draw based on the commander can potentially be harder to use early in the game because I might not yet have hexproof for instance. Really I just need to push for more games but I needed to order a few cards and there was some glaring things I wanted to change that I had to work through and cement a bit on my end.

I also keep eyeballing the Time Warp effects but passing on them. I am well aware of how ridiculously powerful they are for voltron strategies I just.......... hate them lol.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 2154
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

I have gotten to play this deck a few times. In general it feels a little slow where it is right now but to some degree I need more consistency. The creatures in the deck are a little too fair and slow which I think I need to trim down some and push more on card selection. I think I need to be more accepting of my commander not immediately having every keyword in existence and get on board to wrath sooner than I have been as without some sort of interaction too many people have been pushing lethal situations way too fast on me.

DECK CHANGES:
  • OppressionDamnation I still think that the Oppression type cards can work I just need too many specific things set up for this deck to feel like I have the time to setup, not die, and then drop this card in. So, instead I guess I am going to shift to another wrath in the deck which I feel like I need.
  • Painful QuandarySakura-Tribe Elder I think I need to be off of the Oppression type cards for now. This deck takes too much assembly and I also need to draw cards after setting up a complex assembly commander and sweep the board. Most of this feels like I need to push more ramp, draw, and sweepers so lets jack up the ramp count a little. Tribe Elder is.... fine its not my favorite but I already have most of the untapped land 2 mana ramp in the deck at this point. I could go with something like Farseek which is better fixing but there is some value in the blocker option of tribe elder.
  • Vampire of the Dire MoonPreordain I don't hate what this vamp can do and I think that lifelink is important but I am trying to trim my creature package back a little for more selection and interaction. Getting duplicate of the same abilities isn't good and I think I need to interact a bit faster and worry less about getting all my abilities immediately. Preordain hopefully digs me to things I need and adds some consistency I find a little lacking currently. I could go further down this into the Ponder and Brainstorm concepts but Preordain is my favorite of them so its in for now.
  • Ice-Fang CoatlSensei's Divining Top I think that Coatl is fine, but like it isn't that good or important for this deck. Its similar to Baleful Strix but with worse keywords for my commander. I have been pushing to run less creatures and more selection so for now I think I am going to cut it. I am not totally convinced of adding top but it can hide from my own sweepers that would hit it and it is more selection. My tutor / shuffle count is a bit high on the list already and I considered that I could bring back in Finale of Devastation or something like Ponder but I think I want to give top a chance and see what it does for me. I haven't been that impressed with top in recent years but this might be the sort of deck I want to play it in.
  • Invisible StalkerAvabruck Caretaker swapping a bad hexproof for a very good hexproof. Its a lot slower being a six drop but I think it's ability to power my commander up is something I need currently. This change is a bit odd as the issue I have been having is needing to set up faster so swapping a two drop for a six is a bit odd but I think the powering up of my commander while sitting behind two potentially hexproof creatures sounds great.
  • Bontu the GlorifiedUro, Titan of Nature's Wrath I think Bontu is my worst indestructible outlet and I think Uro is actually quite acceptable even with my commander exiling him. If I draw an early Uro I think its a very helpful effect and my commander won't gobble him up in that situation. I think I am in for 3 mana Explore with a gain 3 life effect given that it could theoretically be more if my commander isn't in play yet.
  • Sakashima of a Thousand FacesDoom Whisperer I had some high hopes for Sakashima but they weren't really panning out for me. I realized I was a little light on trample outlets in the deck and when going through the options and given I was already looking for card selection I was quite pleased to realize I could run Doom Whisperer as both a keyword pickup as well as card selection. There are plenty of times where I have to have a specific interaction or die and I think I am game for this.
So, the big thing is I need to interact sooner which is me mostly saying I need to ramp into mana more consistently early and move to sweep before getting overwhelmed. I am hoping that these updates get me into the game a touch faster because there have been a lot of horrible things that have been happening sort of fast. I had multiple games almost or did end by like turns 6-8 last night and I can't keep slow hands with zero ramp then durdle out bad creatures with slow sac outlets and no interaction. I did put a decent bit of consideration into if I want Bane of Progress and or Ezuri's Predation in these changes but I think both feel a bit expensive to cast and while they are powerful at what they do they don't offer a lot of flexibility in what they do on top of being expensive to cast. I really wish I had something like Chandra's Ignition but I guess I have to do without. Most of the remaining black based sweepers aren't really exciting me which is part of why I pushed for a decent bit of card selection in these changes as well as additional ramp.

I might also revisit Village Rites in the future. I think its possibly still an effect that I would find valuable given the mana cost and effect. It had been in the list of things I had intended to make room for but then suddenly I just had other priorities but it might be something I circle back to.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 2154
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

The deck is coming along nicely but I am still playing with the exact numbers of each type of ability I care about. I noticed that I needed to push a bit harder on vigilance as I can often be very reliant on my commander for both offense and defense and lacking vigilance forces me to be half as effective with them. I recently cut a source of lifelink too as a test and I didn't like the results of that so I think I am going to bolster these two abilities for now and do some more testing.

I am going to do an in depth take on the abilities Rayami can gain mostly for my own benefit but in case anyone else is interested I put some thought into this but spoiled it due to it being a bit of a wall of text.
In depth on abilities
Show
Hide
Flying - Flying is my preference of evasion options he can have. Its strong for attacking options as well as defense. Its also a common pickup on creatures though so I mostly let it happen on its own.
First Strike - Its not irrelevant but generally speaking when I gain Indestructible, it makes having first strike irrelevant. First Strike is a good pairing with Deathtouch but its generally low priority given I put effort into gaining Indestructible. If you get First Strike + Deathtouch though it can serve as a poor man's Indestructible as far as combat goes.
Double Strike - Its amazing but unless I am mistaken I cannot find a creature that I can add to the deck that has this as a vanilla all the time ability that Rayami can gain (at this time).
Deathtouch - Its useful but its generally tagged on a ton of things and its an ability I don't really need until I have almost everything else. Its useful after gaining trample + Vigilance + Indestructible but its also just tagged onto a lot of cards I am already running so I put this one as generally low priority as its picked up everywhere and its an ability I want after getting everything else.
Haste - It has its uses but once I get set up with most of my abilities my commander doesn't really leave play to many effects. I generally have more or less removed it from my importance list because until I have most of my abilities I am probably stuck on defense with my commander.
Hexproof - I put a high importance on opponents not being able to target me. I would say its probably my number one keyword I am looking to gain.
Indestructible - This is generally not my highest importance ability but it helps a lot in allowing me to attack / defend without being punished. I would say its something I want at some point but if I am already flying + vigilant for instance it generally only matters if something outsizes me.
Lifelink - I would put this in my top four abilities I am looking to have but I generally want to be able to connect and defend so I would say I want hexproof and vigilance before lifelink and I probably need something to make me evasive or indestructible as well.
Menace - Its fairly low on my list of things to gain. Some of this is because I often fly by the time I am attacking and Trample + Deathtouch generally outshines what little Menace does for me.
Protection - Protection can be better than Hexproof but the problem is its hard to gain the right colors of protection. I can generally get 1-2 colors of protection but I find that the other sources of evasion and hexproof tend to just be better than relying on protection and trying to get the colors right.
Reach - Mostly irrelivant other than as an early pickup if I lack flying. There are lots of sources of Flying though so I put it in fairly low regard.
Trample - Useful but generally its similar to Deathtouch in that it only really matters after you pick up most of the other relevant abilities.
Vigilance - I find this ability to be a lot bigger of a deal than I expected in part because I sacrifice a lot of my creatures so it means I need to lean on my commander as a primary defender. I really like when I can pair him with Vigilance and Lifelink as it really gives me a defensive buffer.

So, in order of importance I would probably put them at:

Hexproof
Vigilance
Flying
Lifelink
Indestructible
Deathtouch
Trample

That is assuming I can assemble the abilities in the order I want at least. The level of importance I put on them though also dictates how much emphasis I put on cards to give him these abilities though. I had previously put more emphasis on Indestructible but I have found it a lot less necessary once I pick up Hexproof and Deathtouch can in some cases also serve as enough of a deterrent in combat to serve as a pseudo intimidator of the effect.
DECK CHANGES:
  • Uro, Titan of Nature's WrathSavor the Moment With pushing a little harder on vigilance I think this swap is fine. I was mostly accepting that Uro was likely being exiled by the commander so moving to Savor opens the option of a 2x attack later in the game while still offering the early ramp.
  • Rankle, Master of PranksMirri, Cat Warrior|Exodus Rankle is.... just ok. I was using it as a few keywords and a weird sac outlet but haste isn't that important to me and my flying count is still good after these changes so I opted to move for more vigilance which I was too low on which I didn't realize. The other fun part of this card is the addition of first strike which I don't really push for but paired with vigilance its nice. It potentially lets me first stike + deathtouch things which can be like a poor man's indestructible effect as far as combat is concerned. I also think that Mirri is a really sweet card with cool art that I have always wanted to run.
  • Doom WhispererRamunap Hydra I didn't get to really test Doom Whisperer unfortunately but I did see that I was lacking vigilance in the counts I actually wanted it. This change sucks because I think Doom Whisperer is a sweet card with some options to utilize surplus life. The downside is that flying / trample are not high on my needs right now for my commander and so I am prioritizing abilities that felt too scarce in the list for now.
  • Silumgar, the Drifting DeathInvisible Stalker Silumgar can shut down tokens but hes slower than I wanted for both a token answer option and as a hexproof granting outlet. Given that one of my hexproof additions lately is something I don't actually want to sacrifice if I can help it I felt like I should bring my hexproof count back up by one as far as cheap creatures go.
  • Sensei's Divining TopPonder My issue with top I guess is mostly that if you have sufficient draw it gets to the point that it doesn't do anything for me. So I am moving to Ponder instead which always gives me a cheap glance with options and can clear the topdeck as needed. I didn't have the mana for top in several cases and I got to a point where a few hug decks were forcing me to draw multiple extra cards a turn which was hard to make top really impressive in that case.
  • CultivateLeyline Prowler its kind of ramp for ramp. I felt like I did need to boost my lifelink count by one and I didn't love a lot of the random lifelink creatures I could run. This one is a little more expensive but I think it gives a good curve with my commander + sac outlet land on T4 still.
  • Kodama's ReachThe Great Henge not as sure on this one but I feel like Cultivate / Kodamas lose a lot of their value for me after the early turns. They are still fine early but if I don't have a sac outlet land early they don't ramp into my commander and I want a little more to offset some of the vanilla nature of my creatures.
  • Pir's WhimRead the Bones Pir's lands poorly on curve for me and while its.... fine I think I just want to go away from this effect for this deck. I like that I can curve Read the Bones still into potentially a sac outlet find before my commander. Its cheap draw that seems good at most parts of the game.
  • Arcane DenialIncreasing Savagery Trying to be a little lighter on the instant responses given how many sweepers I run. I felt like I was too far into some spellslinger stuff and I needed a bunch of things for my commander. I think Increasing Savagery brings a lot of power to the plate and I really like how it doesn't leave anything for my opponents to target as far as spot removal goes.
  • Echoing TruthBloodline Culling Its a little more expensive but I think that Culling is more reliable of a removal effect in case they have interaction / sac options themselves. I also like how I can likely throw it at a number of commanders as a kill effect so the versatility is good.
  • Mana DrainKenrith's Transformation Mana Drain has been weird here. The UU nature of its cost is a little harder since I went a little budget on the landbase here. I also am very reliant on having some draw spell or a full hand to probably make use of the mana from it. I think its a fantastic card but I was looking to dumb my instant responses down to a little more of emergency interaction only.
  • Wipe AwayMurderous Rider Spot removal for spot removal. Its narrower but the big payoff here is having a lifelink creature afterwards that I can play and sac. I also think the rider will be a lot better when drawn early in the game as players playing fast proactive decks can be a problem for this deck and kill spelling rather than just tempo bouncing them will give me a better early effect. I was mostly playing it for the range of interaction and the ability to stop combos but there is enough proactive non combo stuff that needs slowing as well that I should probably just be happy that rider offers me some interaction and a vanilla ability I need.
  • Diabolic IntentHelm of the Host not entirely sure on this one but Intent is a little awkward given the amount of setup I want in this deck. I was looking to cut it for a bit and while I am far from convinced I think that Helm of the Host is interesting and the idea of shooting out a bunch of copies of my commander sounds just dandy.
I did a count earlier with the above changes and if my math is correct it puts me on:
  • Hexproof - 5 but only really 4 that I want to sacrifice.
  • Vigilance - 4
  • Flying - 5
  • Lifelink - 4
  • Indestructible - 3
  • Deathtouch - 6
  • Trample - 3
Deathtouch and Flying seem to mostly happen on some reasonable cards that I am running for other reasons so I don't really have to push much for those but the others I seem to have to deliberately push for and run cards to get. My current shell seems to be reasonable to find things eventually with three copies and five copies seems to be as high as I go for things I really want to see early and often. Vigilance and hexproof are in my opinion some of the harder effects to get on real cards. Most of the cards with these mechanics are generally not cards that I would consider to be playable EDH cards and thus drawing and playing them often comes with a somewhat large negative value play. It means that I have to make up for playing them elsewhere like getting value in sweepers or drawing a lot more cards. Some of this is in part why I paired down some of my spot interaction as while I liked having it it, 1 for 1 spot removal can also run you a bit of a deficit in your value gameplan and pairing them together I often ran out of gas.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

User avatar
Ertai Planeswalker
Posts: 143
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands

Post by Ertai Planeswalker » 2 years ago

I have no experience with this commander nor have I ever seen it in action so this is all theoretical, but given what you said about having to interact a little sooner, I think the planeswalkers, Savor the Moment, Hunter's Prowess and Rishkar's Expertise can be cut to make room for other cards. The planeswalkers are nice value engines but they all rely on having your commander out for them to optimally do it's thing or at least be protected by somehwat of a board state. In other words, they work mostly when your deck is already doing it's thing but they seem to do little or not enough in getting you there. The same with the other cards: they are good with your commander out, but when he's not out they don't do much good for you.

Cards you could add in their stead are Culling Ritual and Yahenni's Expertise for example. Both are boardwipes that refund you (most) of the mana so you can boardwipe AND continue to ramp on turn 3 or 4 all in one go. Maybe even Baral's Expertise as well for the same reason: it's a decent tempo card. Hero's Blade is also good as it auto equips anytime Rayami, First of the Fallen reenters and will immediately turn it into a 8/6. Last but not least, Stinging Study seems like a good replacement for -or addition to if you don't agree about - Rishkar's Expertise: while it does not have the same tempo advantage as Rishkar's it ALWAYS works. 5 mana draw 4 at instant speed is decent.

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 2154
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Ertai Planeswalker wrote:
2 years ago
I have no experience with this commander nor have I ever seen it in action so this is all theoretical, but given what you said about having to interact a little sooner, I think the planeswalkers, Savor the Moment, Hunter's Prowess and Rishkar's Expertise can be cut to make room for other cards. The planeswalkers are nice value engines but they all rely on having your commander out for them to optimally do it's thing or at least be protected by somehwat of a board state. In other words, they work mostly when your deck is already doing it's thing but they seem to do little or not enough in getting you there. The same with the other cards: they are good with your commander out, but when he's not out they don't do much good for you.

Cards you could add in their stead are Culling Ritual and Yahenni's Expertise for example. Both are boardwipes that refund you (most) of the mana so you can boardwipe AND continue to ramp on turn 3 or 4 all in one go. Maybe even Baral's Expertise as well for the same reason: it's a decent tempo card. Hero's Blade is also good as it auto equips anytime Rayami, First of the Fallen reenters and will immediately turn it into a 8/6. Last but not least, Stinging Study seems like a good replacement for -or addition to if you don't agree about - Rishkar's Expertise: while it does not have the same tempo advantage as Rishkar's it ALWAYS works. 5 mana draw 4 at instant speed is decent.
Just to paint a bit of a picture I guess I will talk about the deck a bit quickly. I set out with a goal of having a very hard to spot remove / sweep type of commander. I wanted a real slow roller in essence something that takes a good long while to get there but is very challenging to deal with and or answer. This commander takes a good bit to roll up his abilities but he becomes sort of more powerful over time while also being very hard to remove from a board and coming back with more power than he started with due to his nature.

A big part of the challenge with this deck is that I have very little burst damage. Hatred is probably my one big buff but its often reliant on me having sort of all of the abilities to execute it as if I lack lifelink its almost certainly going to kill me, if I lack evasion to connect it to someone's face it will get chumped so its tricky to actually close out a lot of games quickly with this deck which means I mostly rely on trying to drag games out long and hope that my opponents over commit into sweepers as well as not being TOO fast.

One of my biggest omissions for this deck is extra turns. Time Warp and its numerous 5-6 mana friends would likely be a good fit but I really hate chaining turns and find it to be a solitaire sort of playstyle that I try to not roll into. This deck likely would like to run them but its an experience I don't like pushing on others even though this sort of deck can be a real grind I like having my opponents attempt to counter play its often very slow wincon.

I bring this up to sort of set a stage. My goal with this deck was figuring out how to leverage the fact that my commander is more robust and grows with time not to mention the fact that he gets wrathed well and comes back from them.

Ok, lets talk about some of the cards you suggested adding and cutting:
  • Teferi, Master of Time - A big part of what I like about him is just a lot of extra rummaging. He adds a lot of loyalty somewhat quickly making him take a bit of resources to remove him via combat and he can somewhat protect himself with his spot phase effect. With all of the vanilla creatures in the deck he can loot away some of those if not needed and his ult is very achievable in commander. I agree that protecting walkers isn't neccessarily easy with this concept but forcing opponents to attack my walkers is almost like an extra sac outlet in some ways and it does punish those attacks with my commander. I have been rather positive on Teferi of late as he has just been sort of a better performing card and planeswalker for me lately.
  • Vivien, Arkbow Ranger - The idea was mostly stacking counters on the commander repeatedly and for somewhat cheap. I am not sure that I have enough data to really have a strong feeling either way on her.
  • Garruk, Primal Hunter - I have been going back and fort on his inclusion but I have also been having issues with card advantage and draw in this deck. Sometimes I don't have the mana and time to cast them and other times I don't have one in sight. Its something I am still working on but I am not convinced that he is the card I need for the deck. That said, I haven't really been convinced one way or another on him or some other card draw effect. I did just change up a bunch of things in the deck so I need more testing but I am not against cutting him.
  • Savor the Moment - I often consider it sort of a three mana blue Explore and I have had very positive results with it and Explore effects. It has the benefit as well that if I can get vigilance that my commander gets to attack twice so... I like that. I would need to hear more on your thoughts against this card as my general experience with this card has been extremely positive to date.
  • Hunter's Prowess - I would probably start with cutting Garruk, Primal Hunter personally just given that I have had fairly good success with getting my commander into play and sticking him. It is true that if I start eating a bunch of counter magic on my commander or something it might make sense to change but right now I need to get a bit more testing in to say one way or another on prowess. It is true that five mana sorcery draw can be a bit clunky and I do need to do a bit more fine tuning on my draw I just haven't seen something that feels better offhand.
  • Rishkar's Expertise - I have had fairly positive experiences with it personally which is in part that I put a lot of early emphasis on hexproof. Getting a free five or less mana spell is usually good follow up tempo that I would probably want to cut Garruk and Hunter's Prowess before I would cut this one.
I am not against cutting some of these. You are correct that the planeswalkers are hard to defend but the sweepers of the deck can also make it hard to go wide to get at them as well forcing opponents to over commit to removing them. I think I like Teferi the most of them just due to the amount of loyalty he gains and all of his abilities feeling quite good to me. The expensive draw is a fair point and I might have to cut back on that which would probably start with Garruk.

Lets look at the cards you suggested:
  • Culling Ritual - Interesting. I didn't actually know that this was a card. That is cool. I ordered a copy and will see what I can do to test it. There are a decent number of useful artifact / enchantments that can hit as well as getting tokens so I look forward to seeing how that works for me.
  • Yahenni's Expertise - I go back and forth on a few of these situational cards. Consume the Meek is another one I have considered a bit where the advantage of that one is being instant speed. Yahenni' has some tempo advantages and it might catch a few of the 4+ cmc commanders and utility creatures as well which has its bonuses as well. I also considered some of the 5+ cmc black sweepers but I am not really sure on them. I suppose this might be somewhat high up in the potentials. The downside of it is that it leaves my commander somewhat weak for the turn but I can cast it post attacking if I don't need to clear blockers out of the way with it.
  • Baral's Expertise - I have actually experienced a bit of the bounce cards as I was running more of them. I am realizing that I don't have a fast enough clock to necessarily capitalize on bounce based removal. This sort of effect is generally a tempo card where you try to slow an opponent down and leverage that time you buy to bury them in value you add or kill them outright. I am finding that my clock isn't fast enough to utilize bounce outside of disrupting a combo.
  • Hero's Blade - Its.... fine. I considered some other equipment like Sword of Feast and Famine and Umezawa's Jitte as well but some of my concern is that they are things for my opponents to remove and with me being so light on removal targets it sort of makes the few things that can be targeted feel a bit vulnerable. I don't think that Hero's Blade would be my first pick of equipment but I am also not sure that I love equipment in general in this deck.
  • Stinging Study - Maybe, It draws a little less and it has the life loss. Its alright I guess I just don't know that I am crazy about it. I say this mostly from the standpoint that I could run Mystic Confluence which is a draw three for the same mana but it also has a lot of other playable modes to it. I get the impression that you really want to be in the 6+ cmc commander range for Stinging Study to really show its value.
I think that I need to watch how many sweepers I run as they do have a diminishing return when you have more than one in hand. That said I am far from convinced that I have any of my counts correct as I have been focusing a lot on my keyword ability counts and trying to dial in a bunch of things at the same time. It might sound crazy but I actually think I might be cutting Cyclonic Rift from this deck as I have a hard time using tempo as a strong tool here given how slow my kill speed is with this deck. Culling Ritual and Yahenni's Expertise are things I want to explore a bit but I also think that I need to watch my total wrath count. I don't think I have the numbers figured out for this deck though so I will see what I can come up with for changes. I put in some orders for some of the suggested cards and I will see what I can do to bring them in for testing.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

User avatar
Ertai Planeswalker
Posts: 143
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands

Post by Ertai Planeswalker » 2 years ago

SPOILER
Show
Hide
ISBPathfinder wrote:
2 years ago
Ertai Planeswalker wrote:
2 years ago
I have no experience with this commander nor have I ever seen it in action so this is all theoretical, but given what you said about having to interact a little sooner, I think the planeswalkers, Savor the Moment, Hunter's Prowess and Rishkar's Expertise can be cut to make room for other cards. The planeswalkers are nice value engines but they all rely on having your commander out for them to optimally do it's thing or at least be protected by somehwat of a board state. In other words, they work mostly when your deck is already doing it's thing but they seem to do little or not enough in getting you there. The same with the other cards: they are good with your commander out, but when he's not out they don't do much good for you.

Cards you could add in their stead are Culling Ritual and Yahenni's Expertise for example. Both are boardwipes that refund you (most) of the mana so you can boardwipe AND continue to ramp on turn 3 or 4 all in one go. Maybe even Baral's Expertise as well for the same reason: it's a decent tempo card. Hero's Blade is also good as it auto equips anytime Rayami, First of the Fallen reenters and will immediately turn it into a 8/6. Last but not least, Stinging Study seems like a good replacement for -or addition to if you don't agree about - Rishkar's Expertise: while it does not have the same tempo advantage as Rishkar's it ALWAYS works. 5 mana draw 4 at instant speed is decent.
Just to paint a bit of a picture I guess I will talk about the deck a bit quickly. I set out with a goal of having a very hard to spot remove / sweep type of commander. I wanted a real slow roller in essence something that takes a good long while to get there but is very challenging to deal with and or answer. This commander takes a good bit to roll up his abilities but he becomes sort of more powerful over time while also being very hard to remove from a board and coming back with more power than he started with due to his nature.

A big part of the challenge with this deck is that I have very little burst damage. Hatred is probably my one big buff but its often reliant on me having sort of all of the abilities to execute it as if I lack lifelink its almost certainly going to kill me, if I lack evasion to connect it to someone's face it will get chumped so its tricky to actually close out a lot of games quickly with this deck which means I mostly rely on trying to drag games out long and hope that my opponents over commit into sweepers as well as not being TOO fast.

One of my biggest omissions for this deck is extra turns. Time Warp and its numerous 5-6 mana friends would likely be a good fit but I really hate chaining turns and find it to be a solitaire sort of playstyle that I try to not roll into. This deck likely would like to run them but its an experience I don't like pushing on others even though this sort of deck can be a real grind I like having my opponents attempt to counter play its often very slow wincon.

I bring this up to sort of set a stage. My goal with this deck was figuring out how to leverage the fact that my commander is more robust and grows with time not to mention the fact that he gets wrathed well and comes back from them.

Ok, lets talk about some of the cards you suggested adding and cutting:
  • Teferi, Master of Time - A big part of what I like about him is just a lot of extra rummaging. He adds a lot of loyalty somewhat quickly making him take a bit of resources to remove him via combat and he can somewhat protect himself with his spot phase effect. With all of the vanilla creatures in the deck he can loot away some of those if not needed and his ult is very achievable in commander. I agree that protecting walkers isn't neccessarily easy with this concept but forcing opponents to attack my walkers is almost like an extra sac outlet in some ways and it does punish those attacks with my commander. I have been rather positive on Teferi of late as he has just been sort of a better performing card and planeswalker for me lately.
  • Vivien, Arkbow Ranger - The idea was mostly stacking counters on the commander repeatedly and for somewhat cheap. I am not sure that I have enough data to really have a strong feeling either way on her.
  • Garruk, Primal Hunter - I have been going back and fort on his inclusion but I have also been having issues with card advantage and draw in this deck. Sometimes I don't have the mana and time to cast them and other times I don't have one in sight. Its something I am still working on but I am not convinced that he is the card I need for the deck. That said, I haven't really been convinced one way or another on him or some other card draw effect. I did just change up a bunch of things in the deck so I need more testing but I am not against cutting him.
  • Savor the Moment - I often consider it sort of a three mana blue Explore and I have had very positive results with it and Explore effects. It has the benefit as well that if I can get vigilance that my commander gets to attack twice so... I like that. I would need to hear more on your thoughts against this card as my general experience with this card has been extremely positive to date.
  • Hunter's Prowess - I would probably start with cutting Garruk, Primal Hunter personally just given that I have had fairly good success with getting my commander into play and sticking him. It is true that if I start eating a bunch of counter magic on my commander or something it might make sense to change but right now I need to get a bit more testing in to say one way or another on prowess. It is true that five mana sorcery draw can be a bit clunky and I do need to do a bit more fine tuning on my draw I just haven't seen something that feels better offhand.
  • Rishkar's Expertise - I have had fairly positive experiences with it personally which is in part that I put a lot of early emphasis on hexproof. Getting a free five or less mana spell is usually good follow up tempo that I would probably want to cut Garruk and Hunter's Prowess before I would cut this one.
I am not against cutting some of these. You are correct that the planeswalkers are hard to defend but the sweepers of the deck can also make it hard to go wide to get at them as well forcing opponents to over commit to removing them. I think I like Teferi the most of them just due to the amount of loyalty he gains and all of his abilities feeling quite good to me. The expensive draw is a fair point and I might have to cut back on that which would probably start with Garruk.

Lets look at the cards you suggested:
  • Culling Ritual - Interesting. I didn't actually know that this was a card. That is cool. I ordered a copy and will see what I can do to test it. There are a decent number of useful artifact / enchantments that can hit as well as getting tokens so I look forward to seeing how that works for me.
  • Yahenni's Expertise - I go back and forth on a few of these situational cards. Consume the Meek is another one I have considered a bit where the advantage of that one is being instant speed. Yahenni' has some tempo advantages and it might catch a few of the 4+ cmc commanders and utility creatures as well which has its bonuses as well. I also considered some of the 5+ cmc black sweepers but I am not really sure on them. I suppose this might be somewhat high up in the potentials. The downside of it is that it leaves my commander somewhat weak for the turn but I can cast it post attacking if I don't need to clear blockers out of the way with it.
  • Baral's Expertise - I have actually experienced a bit of the bounce cards as I was running more of them. I am realizing that I don't have a fast enough clock to necessarily capitalize on bounce based removal. This sort of effect is generally a tempo card where you try to slow an opponent down and leverage that time you buy to bury them in value you add or kill them outright. I am finding that my clock isn't fast enough to utilize bounce outside of disrupting a combo.
  • Hero's Blade - Its.... fine. I considered some other equipment like Sword of Feast and Famine and Umezawa's Jitte as well but some of my concern is that they are things for my opponents to remove and with me being so light on removal targets it sort of makes the few things that can be targeted feel a bit vulnerable. I don't think that Hero's Blade would be my first pick of equipment but I am also not sure that I love equipment in general in this deck.
  • Stinging Study - Maybe, It draws a little less and it has the life loss. Its alright I guess I just don't know that I am crazy about it. I say this mostly from the standpoint that I could run Mystic Confluence which is a draw three for the same mana but it also has a lot of other playable modes to it. I get the impression that you really want to be in the 6+ cmc commander range for Stinging Study to really show its value.
I think that I need to watch how many sweepers I run as they do have a diminishing return when you have more than one in hand. That said I am far from convinced that I have any of my counts correct as I have been focusing a lot on my keyword ability counts and trying to dial in a bunch of things at the same time. It might sound crazy but I actually think I might be cutting Cyclonic Rift from this deck as I have a hard time using tempo as a strong tool here given how slow my kill speed is with this deck. Culling Ritual and Yahenni's Expertise are things I want to explore a bit but I also think that I need to watch my total wrath count. I don't think I have the numbers figured out for this deck though so I will see what I can come up with for changes. I put in some orders for some of the suggested cards and I will see what I can do to bring them in for testing.
All in all, you seem to have a good understanding of where you want to go and like i said everything i brought up was theorycrafting. I do find it funny how you look at Savor the Moment. I never looked at it from an "Explore with upside" point of view. I just viewed it as a "Timewarp with downsides". I think i have to re-evaluate this card and perhaps it's stronger than i initially thought.

One more thought: how about Propaganda, Collective Restraint and/or Elephant Grass? In these days of games becoming faster these cards become increasingly good imo, as people have less and less mana left as curves are optimized. It might help you buy some time as people attack elsewhere. Same with No Mercy.

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 2154
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Ertai Planeswalker wrote:
2 years ago
All in all, you seem to have a good understanding of where you want to go and like i said everything i brought up was theorycrafting. I do find it funny how you look at Savor the Moment. I never looked at it from an "Explore with upside" point of view. I just viewed it as a "Timewarp with downsides". I think i have to re-evaluate this card and perhaps it's stronger than i initially thought.

One more thought: how about Propaganda, Collective Restraint and/or Elephant Grass? In these days of games becoming faster these cards become increasingly good imo, as people have less and less mana left as curves are optimized. It might help you buy some time as people attack elsewhere. Same with No Mercy.
I really love testing and modifying lists from the data I get back. I still have a lot of cards in this deck that I don't feel I have sufficiently tested but a big part of that challenge is how many sort of vanilla creatures you wouldn't normally run in commander that I run to improve my commander over time. The commander is interesting given how different from the norm they are but my approach still represents a fairly slow clock overall with a more control angle to how I play. Given how long it takes to assemble a lot of the keywords though the sweepers really play well to the commander's strength. I had initially tried to be very light on things worth targeting that can be targeted which is why I ended up with more of a +/+ counters concept to it than using equipment and auras just because then opponents have something to target that can trip me up. That said, I might have pushed that concept a little harder than necessary in part because I was thinking of the Boompile / Pernicious Deed / Gaze of Granite effects that can sweep them out. I think to some degree I still like not relying on most equipment and auras as buffs due to this but some artifact and enchantments have a good immediate effect and I was probably a bit too harsh on some effects given my thoughts on possibly sweeping them. All of this said I might still consider adding Bane of Progress to the list potentially as I do like hating on things and its been sort of on my radar but its still not to the point that I have included it. I need more testing ultimately still with the list to get a better grasp of what is and isn't working and where I need to focus on. So far there has been a little bit of an issue of how clunky assembling things can be and fast decks can potentially need to be swept or interacted with very early.

I just need to test a bunch more and see more of the deck. I have had some struggles with how clunky some things can feel and trying to play a chunky ability creature the same turn as I do other things can be hard depending on what I am doing and what mana I have available.

Propaganda / Collective Restraint - I think these are amazing cards especially against token / swarm concepts. I really like them and they are a consideration of mine. Some of the issue though is that they do get swept by some of my own sweepers and the sweepers also fill a similar role. Its possible I could cut some of the sweepers for these or run them alongside. My starting point I tried to not run them but its something I could fall back on depending on what level of success I have. Lots of token decks can have a big issue if they get swept more than once too so I am sort of feeling things out still on where I want to be. I also just made a UW deck that is running heavy on propaganda effects so I like to have some diversity in my playstyle so while I don't have them in right now I am not ruling them out but I also want to test more before trying them out here.

DECK CHANGE:
  • Cyclonic RiftCulling Ritual this one is going to be controversial given its me cutting Cyclonic Rift but in this deck the tempo of bounce is really hard to capitalize on given how slow of a clock I run. It makes cyclonic rift something to answer tokens and to stop someone right on the cusp of killing me which is hard because well.... I am not really a draw go deck and I don't find the proactive rift plays as good as just wrathing everyone. I also didn't know that Culling Ritual was a card and I want to see how that goes as the mana tempo of it could be huge if they lack a sac outlet. I see a ton of token tactics and getting 10 mana back after sweeping sounds really useful. Also hitting mana rocks sounds great.
  • Garruk, Primal HunterRhystic Study I need to experiment a bit more on what draw to run. Rhystic is good, but damn I hate asking "did you pay for that" all the time. Its to the point that I often deliberately ommit the card but I guess I can throw one it. Garruk is probably one of my worst draw effects in the deck and five mana is hard to multi task in a turn.
EDIT: Blessing of Frost might also be something to think about. I am not really super deep on snow mana is the only kind of concern. I don't think I will have a problem having access to some snow mana but this card I would want to cast with probably 3-4 snow mana which might be harder. I think I probably need a little more testing to really pull the trigger on bringing it in but its something I am thinking about. Getting a larger commander increases my clock and also lets me gain more life in a turn from lifelink which also makes it harder to out size me in combat by going wide.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 2154
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Ok, I guess quick update this deck is doing really well for me. I am still struggling a little with how long it takes me to spin up as well as how slow my kills end up being. I often am forced to kill everyone on my own given how my sweepers function I am forced to often proactively sweep the board before opponents can attack me heavily. I did have one interesting experience where an opponent spun up a bunch of clones of my commander and me trying to figure out how to overcome that. It turns out that giving my commander deathtouch can be very awkward vs clones but that can also be overcome by pairing Indestructible, Deathtouch, and Trample together to force commander damage through. This doesn't normally happen to me much so I don't plan to really adjust given this clone issue but I did consider the possibility of picking up some protection potentially through Stonecoil Serpent. In a lot of my changes I am pushing through here I am pushing to try to add more pressure with my commander for a faster clock. I am also struggling a little with what cards to utilize for card advantage / draw still as there are times I don't have enough good draw.

DECK CHANGES:
  • ExplorationScale the Heights I had hoped that my card draw was going to feel a bit smoother in this list but it often feels like I end up spending a whole turn drawing cards or that I am expending my hand of cards that are vanilla creatures. Exploration has felt a little spotty for me just because it is a card where you need a high and consistent draw that I haven't felt I could maintain quite sufficiently for the card. I like Explore effects though and adding a +/+ counter seems fine. I often play my comander as somewhat of a five drop to have a sac outlet up when I do cast it. I think that Scale the Heights seems like a card that can be very useful early or late so I want to give it a shot.
  • Hydroid KrasisLoyal Drake Krasis has just been ok for me. I don't ramp hard enough to really cast it for much of a big result. I did cast it for x=6 recently and honestly I just wasn't that impressed with the amount of mana I put in for what I got out of it. The body that comes with it isn't really that useful outside of blocking in combat since my primary wincon is mostly commander damage. I will be honest, I have literally never run this drake ever but I like that it can start drawing the same turn it is played (conditionally on your commander being in play) but even if I play it before my commander I am not really too worried about it. Its a Phyrexian Arena that draws the same turn its played and it has the flying tag which I do find important for my commander in case its going to die. I don't have a ton of faith in bringing in the drake but I have also never really played with it so I figure its time to test.
  • Sakura-Tribe ElderElvish Rejuvenator I generally have been fixing alright so far with this deck and I care a lot about hitting my sac outlet lands for my commander on time. Rejuvenator doesn't technically ramp into my commander correctly but I have been playing my commander as more of a five drop lately trying to hit a sac outlet for him first so I think I am ok with doing some testing to see if this helps me hit my sac outlet lands better.
  • Helm of the HostFinale of Devastation helm is cool and I did actually get to draw and use it lately which was cool but its also extremely expensive to set up and use. I think I am better off with a little more consistency to my deck though.
  • Chain of VaporRuinous Intrusion I started out with a bunch of bounce stuff and there have been times that the bounce effects have been ok but I think I need more permeant answers to my deck. I think as removal Ruinous Intrusion is a little so so but I think as a pump effect it might be impressive. I need to try it out and see what it does but its an instant and it could potentially put a good number of counters on.
  • Graven LoreDig through Time I got to see Graven Lore a few times but I just wasn't hitting enough mana for it to not feel clunky and like it took my whole turn. I ended up discarding it a few times when I had better draw and I just never got around to actually casting it. I want to see how delve can work as I don't really care about my graveyard so I figure if I can pop it off a few times for cheap I might not hate Dig.
  • Culling RitualVirulent Plague For the most part, I want to murder tokens and keep people from going too wide on me. There are some other things that Culling Ritual catches like some equipment / mana rocks and some random utility things but overall I felt like the main function of it was going to be to catch tokens so I figured I might as well do it a little better rather than have some mana pickup and some random extra smashes I probably don't care about all that much.
  • Decree of PainVerdurous Gearhulk Decree is a cool effect but I find that actually casting it is a bit more than I want for this deck. I have added a few other anti token cards and with how hard it is to cast I feel like I am left with cycling it which while ok I think I am just going to move on to something else for now. I want to push up my +/+ counter concept and see how it goes. I think Gearhulk is a little weak overall but it speeds up my clock and it gives me another trample option.
  • Vivien, Arkbow RangerBirthing Pod Cutting back on the planeswalkers just because they are a pain in the ass and hard to protect. I still have Teferi, Master of Time in here but holy hell I love the hell out of that guy and hes a lot harder to kill given how fast his loyalty ticks up. I also killed someone off the back of phasing out their blocker and trampling through for lethal once which was super fun. Pod is something I never gave a chance in this list but I also think that the pod chain has filled in a bit better than when I first started. It looks like I have several very reasonable cards all the way up to six mana.
  • Reliquary TowerTyrite Sanctum I just wasn't really in a situation very often where I was ending up with a huge hand. Usually after I draw I spend some time casting my hand then go back for some more draw.
  • Grim BackwoodsSylvan Scrying I realized that I was never going to be happy activating grim. In the end I would be better off tutoring for a better sac outlet than ever utilizing Grim Backwoods. It actually saves me mana to tutor up another land and play it than it does to ever activate this.
  • 1 Snow-Covered ForestBoseiju, Who Endures I realized I really don't need my basic count as high as it is anymore.
I also plan to do a bit of an overhaul of my landbase. My basics are too high in my digital list as when I started this list I had more basic land search kind of ramp than I do now. To compensate I want to lower my basic count and probably bring in more lands that tap for more than one color of mana. At the last second I thought about Hall of Oracles which I think is a little weaker but I might bring it in for some testing. I am a bit lazy right now so I will do the land overhaul later.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 2154
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

Ok, its been a while since my last update and I haven't played a ton of games with this one in part because I am always making new decks and trying them out. This one is still really fun but its always a bit of a chore to balance my ability counts with this deck as well as how much draw and tutors I have. I have gotten some more games in with this one and while I am fairly happy with this deck as a whole I have found myself wanting maybe one more sweeper that is just like a Damnation level sweeper I just end up not happy with a lot of what I am left with as options that I am not already playing. I very specifically want a destroy effect rather than a -/- effect and I want more that can be played for cheap mana and aren't situational. Most of the remaining wraths that fit what I am looking for are like 6 mana which can feel too slow for what I find myself needing sometimes. This deck has fairly good go long potential my concerns are mostly for someone moving a lot faster than me or someone assembling a big haymaker / combo wincon. Combo can be a real problem for this deck because I am not rooted heavily in spot removal and counterspells but I can also have some issues with tokens or fast concepts that spiral out of control. For now I am going to bump up my sac outlets, my commander disruption, and my tutor / filter capability. I am going to cut into some of my go late stage pump effects with this but some of that is just because I was finding it sometimes too hard to get everything assembled so my hope is that even though I am cutting some +/+ counter synergy most of that was only really beneficial after I got fully setup and I am hoping to have more disruption and consistency getting set up with abilities even if it means for a smaller commander.

DECK CHANGES:
  • Ramunap HydraWilson, Refined Grizzly this is mostly just an upgrade dropping a four mana creature to a two mana one it opens up more mana in a turn and better curve potential. It does leave my four drops a bit light for Birthing Pod but I think still having Questing Beast and Toski, Bearer of Secrets will probably be alright. When looking at actually drawing these cards this swap is almost entirely an upside to make this exchange as its the same keywords for half the mana.
  • Vampire NighthawkGilded Drake I felt like I was a touch heavy on the lifelink / flyer / deathtouch tags as while all three of them are useful they were probably my most common tags. This deck also tends to do fairly good against single large threats which the Vampire Nighthawk outside of sacrifice tends to just play defense which it wasn't great at. I am brining in the Drake as a means to mess with opponents commanders more as I feel like proactive commander centric decks can sometimes get under me and cause issues so having a few more means to slow down some of the problem decks is good to have.
  • Avabruck CaretakerLeadership Vacuum Putting counters on my commander is only really relivant after picking up a bunch of the needed keywords. I added Verdurous Gearhulk a while back and am generally very happy with the fact that its an ETB for the counters and a green creature so I don't need to keep something else alive through my own sweepers and it dying gives me another useful keyword. Leadership Vacuum gives me more commander disruption which seems to be something I want a touch more of. I am not as sure on it from the standpoint that they can recast them but I really just need to keep the superfast commanders from popping off and slowing them down 1-2 turns can help a lot.
  • Virulent PlagueA Little Chat I am a little less certain of cutting Plague just because its such a powerful tool against tokens but its also incredibly narrow in what it does and where it works. I wanted to bolster my sac options a little and I think this new card checks a lot of boxes for me as far as cost and returns.
  • Inscription of AbundanceTamiyo's Compleation I kept hoping that the inscription was going to feel good but it just wasn't. Kicking the spell costs too much and I wasn't really happy getting just one mode I really wanted to get the counters and fight every time but the cost to do it was too high. My commander's base toughness is a bit low for fighting to feel always workable early on. I am swapping to a different interaction card but I really have liked Tamiyo's Compleation as a means of screwing with opponents commanders and part of this change is me trying to have a little more interaction for strong commander centric fast decks.
  • HatredLim-Dul's Vault Hatred is a powerful card... that said its a card that takes a lot of setup. I generally want hexproof + evasion at a minimum and at that point its going to leave me with no life so I also tend to want lifelink. Its just something I have drawn a few too many times without the ability to execute it because my deck wasn't ready to do it. I am shifting and trying to be faster into the game rather than slow into the game with faster closing power once I am.
  • Dig through TimeDiabolic Intent Dig was harder to cast due to the nature of this deck having creatures and exiling the creatures when it sacrifices them. I just wasn't putting enough resources to the graveyard fast enough to feel happy about dig. I also wanted more access to some of my sweepers I am running and while it doesn't feel great paying 6 mana to do something like tutor and play Damnation, adding another six mana wrath because there aren't any more Damnation cards to add in these colors isn't really more efficient unless I don't have a creature to sac to the Intent. I felt like I was missing out on some sac outlet consistency though and I just needed another tutor for anything so it seems like it makes sense to bring Intent back into the deck. I looked back on why I cut Diabolic Intent the first time and I think it was mostly just me being new at the deck and wanting to try out some things. I think my creature count for ability consistancy has gotten better since then as has my personal view of where I need to be for this deck.
  • Increasing SavageryVillage Rites trying to cull some of the only power for more sacrifice. Its possible Riding the Dilu Horse might be better than just straight +/+ counters as well and while it is expensive it got me thinking about the only power up cards in my deck and I decided to try to cut them off for more cards to try to get setup rather than close out games faster once setup.
  • Hunter's ProwessGrothama, All-Devouring I am going to be 100% honest. I don't have faith that Grothama isn't a complete trap. That said, I think it checks a number of boxes on some personal objectives for this deck. It functions as a one shot multi sac outlet while also potentially offering quite a bit of draw for the mana. I don't know if its setup is too much but I also have a number of deathtouch creatures and sac outlets that could finish it off for me and it just has me interested enough that I want to try it out. I don't have faith that its going to pan out but it checks enough boxes that I want to see it in action. The hardest bit is going to be if I don't have a bunch of creatures or abilities to my commander. I really don't want to end up killing off my commander with him so I could see situations he could be bad but I can also think of some good board setups for it. Hunter's Prowess was a bit of an odd bit of card draw in that it mostly functions after my commander is setup so I think Grothama can have some of the same awkward situations to it but I can also think of some useful ones for him.
  • Elder GargarothWeathered Sentinels I think Gargaroth is a cool creature but I also need all of those abilities very often to the point that I often feel like I am juggling casting so I can sac him. I think the value over time of Gargaroth is kind of weak for its mana assuming I am just using it as a second creature and if I have all of those abilities casting him is still not a very good play. So I like that we can lower the curve a bit here.
So, I still think that I am a bit weak to haymaker and combo but I think that the solution to those which is to add more counter magic and spot interaction is harder for me to justify with how bad a lot of the vanilla creatures are on my card advantage. Also having a bunch of 1 for 1 interaction is hard with how vanilla most of the creatures are. Its probably something I have to mostly accept but if I really wanted to I could probably justify one or two more spot removal for that especially if I were to cut them in for some of the commander interaction I just added. I wish there was another sweeper that seemed appealing to me but Crux of Fate was probably the closes I could come up for as to a nonconditional sweeper but dragons are a popular tribe so it would really suck to draw that when someone is on dragons as most of the time with my sweepers I actually want them to just kill everything. It might not seem like that big of a deal but I died with this deck on like turn five last time I played it to someone just absolutely popping the hell off which is part of why I brought in more commander interaction because there are some decks I just have to shut down immediately.

EDIT: I did some poking around on EDHRec and saw a few more cards and am just making a note for myself more than anything else but Topiary Stomper could be useful for some ramp / vigilance setup. Lots of my sac involves me overramping past my commander and then playing him so a creature that ramps me and has useful keywords is nice. Sanguine Spy is also something I should think about too just given that the keywords are ok and its a sac outlet. I don't love that it can't sac itself though.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 2154
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

I ended up ordering a few more cards with the changes last week and I had a few follow-up changes I wanted to make.

DECK CHANGES:
  • Hunter's InsightBolas's Citadel this is an increase in the cost to draw but Hunter's Insight tends to be reliant on Rayami being online and able to attack so in a way its much slower than its three mana might indicate. I would say instead its slower but has tempo with the draw but Citadel can boast tempo as well. With a lot of my recent changes I ended up lowering curve of my creatures so I want to see how some life costing tempo feels in here since I generally have the option to pick up lifelink.
  • Birthing PodBlood Money I did have some decent success with pod since adding it but I think its important to look at a few other changes I made recently. My curve flattened quite a bit and I cut a lot of my 4+ cmc creatures out for cheaper variations with the same abilities. With pod its important to have a bunch of curve filling at multiple different stages and I felt like my entire curve just turned into three drops (I have 10 three drops). My 4+ cmc have very fewer options and some of them can be more situational rather than things I always want to pod into and or out of. Beyond that I also brought up my sac outlet options even if they were one shot sac and I have been working on wanting another wrath for a while in this list. The big thing holding me back on the sweepers was just not really liking the effects for the mana of a lot of them but I like that this one has a weird cost reduction on the backside by making treasures. It will still mean I need seven mana to cast it but it means I can potentially play behind it rather than tap out and be done.
  • Read the BonesTopiary Stomper At first I was thinking about cutting one of my two mana ramp like Three Visits / Nature's Lore to include this dino but I felt like I had brought in enough extra draw lately that I just wanted to cut some of the clunkier midrange draw for more ramp. I like that this dino comes with vigilance as it tends to be a highly sought after ability for me to pick up and also ramping is nice.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

User avatar
Dunadain
I like turtles
Posts: 1326
Joined: 3 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: 'Murica

Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

Reminds me of my Skullbriar, the Walking Grave list. No need to race, just keep pounding and ramping until everyone's dead, with a healthy supply of boardwipes and spot removal to back it up.
All cards are bad if you try hard enough.

Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada

Help me complete my JumpStart Cube!

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 2154
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

Dunadain wrote:
1 year ago
Reminds me of my Skullbriar, the Walking Grave list. No need to race, just keep pounding and ramping until everyone's dead, with a healthy supply of boardwipes and spot removal to back it up.
Yea generally speaking this deck dies out of the gates fast, to something extremely overwhelming like Craterhoof, or it runs everyone down. Its long run threat is a very big deal and it doesn't leave much to target for a lot of control decks.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

User avatar
ISBPathfinder
Bebopin
Posts: 2154
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: SD, USA

Post by ISBPathfinder » 9 months ago

Its been a while since I updated this list. When Scavenged Brawler came out I sort of stumbled a little with this deck as this card is a lot of what I want to have for my commander but the issue is if its just one card I either need a lot more tutors and a lot less of the abilities on other cards or to not go into pushing for this card. The reason I say that is if I just draw it naturally I will probably have a bunch of these abilities already and paying 6 mana for a creature I plan to sacrifice immediately just isn't very economic.

So, in short I am doing some experimentation with Scavenged Brawler in a more creature light build of the deck. I haven't gotten to test it yet but what I am envisioning is less creatures as a whole and possibly more sweepers and spot interaction as a whole. I have noticed with my current OP list that I can be somewhat vulnerable to fast and combo nature wincons. I will try to drop in some feedback on how my testing goes and if it looks like something to pursue further I will update the OP to what I am running in person but I honestly don't know if its the direction I am going yet or not. Right now with what I am testing I kept the indestructible and hexproof creature count and dropped a lot of my others down that overlap with the brawler. Its possible that if it works out I might even drop my counts at least in the hexproof front because those creatures are actually just bad outside of my commander getting those abilities where as the indestructible guys are actually not bad on their own.
[EDH] Vadrok List (Suicide Chads) | Evelyn List (Vamp Mill) | Sanwell List | Danitha List | Indominus List | Ratadrabik List

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Decklists”