The Varinaristocrats!

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

https://deckbox.org/sets/3016407

So I've been lurking noisily in the other big Varina threads for a while and finally got around to trying my own brew. I'll keep updated with changes via the deckbox link and try to get some reports out.

This is kinda typical of my deckbuilding style these days -- Play powerful strategies but with lower curves and less ramp than typical, attempting to just play consistently on curve as much as possible. So if you don't see "autoincludes" like Arcane Signet that's why.


About

This deck is a tribal zombie aggro-combo deck. It tries to play creatures on turn 1, 2, and 3 and then play Varina on turn 4 and loot 3, then combo out after people are forced to sweep the board to deal with the zombie swarm. We aim to interact just enough to keep Rest in Peace, Scavenging Ooze or Winds of Abandon from hitting us and setting us way back.

Because of the curve being so low we don't care about tempo stuff like Cyclonic Rift all that much; we'll just replay our hand.

There are almost too many combo or combo-adjacent things to discuss - you can simply Twilight's Call with Archaeomancer and a sac outlet and functionally infinite, or cast Gray Merchant of Asphodel 3 or 4 times in a turn with Rooftop Storm and Tortured Existence.

The pieces of most combo setups involve making something you can cast over and over again free like Gravecrawler by combining it with Phyrexian Altar and then killing the board with an enabler like Corpse Knight.

And then there are the non-deterministic but functionally infinite combos where you flood the board, sac everything, then reanimate it, then untap and attack. Unholy Grotto + Gray Merchant of Asphodel is basically unbeatable for a lot of decks.


Q&A

Tribal zombie, but you have...

Like most good Varina decks this deck is mostly zombies - I have a couple non-zombies in the form of Archaeomancer, Pitiless Plunderer and Weathered Wayfarer who serve various purposes like ramping, finding lands, and enabling combos. Archaeomancer in particular provides some pretty savage infinite combos with some of the mass reanimation spells and Phyrexian Altar.

why no ramps

I'm just tired of drawing signets. I'd rather draw lands and play them.

I get to play cards like Expedition Map which double as ramp (find Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Cabal Coffers ) and winconditions like Unholy Grotto or Field of the Dead.

Why not <varina tech>

I think Alhammarret's Archive and Teferi's Ageless Insight are probably not really necessary and often winmore. I do own them and might try them out in the slot that Kindred Discovery is in. But I think discovery is probably the best of these since you can double dip with it when you reanimate your dudes later.

With the way the deck is designed, the graveyard is basically my hand so I don't care that much if I discard a grip to varina.



I'm sure there's tons of stuff I am missing and ways in which this deck will evolve over time. Infernal Caretaker for example is probably garbage. I kinda wanted to combo him with Putrid Imp and Grave Scrabbler but that might just be too cute. Who knows. :)

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yeti1069
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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

If you're going for a combo win and already have Rooftop in there, may as well add Acererak.

Are you looking at Second Sunrise and Cosmic Intervention as "ramp" spells alongside fetches, as a mass reanimation spell after sacrificing your board, or board protection in the face of wraths? I know they can do all 3, but curious what your main purpose is for their inclusion.

A great card to run alongside Rooftop is also Havengul Lich, which can recur a zombie for 1 mana, or can allow you to cast any blue, black, white, or colorless creature from any graveyard for mana value +1. Maybe a little slow for this build, but if you're already running Archaeomancer it seems like it could be valuable (I've won games with my Varina list using HL to reanimate someone else's Archaeomancer).

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
If you're going for a combo win and already have Rooftop in there, may as well add Acererak.

Are you looking at Second Sunrise and Cosmic Intervention as "ramp" spells alongside fetches, as a mass reanimation spell after sacrificing your board, or board protection in the face of wraths? I know they can do all 3, but curious what your main purpose is for their inclusion.

A great card to run alongside Rooftop is also Havengul Lich, which can recur a zombie for 1 mana, or can allow you to cast any blue, black, white, or colorless creature from any graveyard for mana value +1. Maybe a little slow for this build, but if you're already running Archaeomancer it seems like it could be valuable (I've won games with my Varina list using HL to reanimate someone else's Archaeomancer).
Acererak the Archlich is on my radar to pick up. He's 3 mana for do nothing for the most part which is a problem for me. He doesn't make a body curving into Varina really.

The purpose of the Cosmic Intervention suite is dual purpose - they do both basically go infinite with Archaeomancer (not exactly with intervention but close enough, 4 times a turn cycle), they are bad Skyshroud Claim and they act as anti-board-sweeper / mass reanimation tech. I'm hopeful that they turn out well but ya never know. This deck doesn't *really* want to hold 4 mana up that much of the time.

Havengul Lich is on my radar as well - I just find it a bit expensive? You'll notice I don't have a lot of 4-5 drops--the curve is intended to be very aggressive. And a lot of the 3-5 mana zombies are on the chopping block. (Vengeful Dead, Infernal Caretaker, Grave Scrabbler could all be cut pretty easily).

I'll have to see if I really need more random card advantage guys - my hope is I can just lean on the mass reanimation and mass reanimation adjacent suite to provide that.

My ideal sequencing is dude, dude, dude, Varina, loot 3 gain 3 hit my land drops forever. And I may wind up needing even more 1 drop zombies for that.

I'm actually suspicious that I might want just some of the bad 1 mana zombies just to make sure I curve out right.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

I really can't see holding up that much mana with this deck.

Acererak just looks good as a 2 card combo for 6 mana, where one piece is pretty strong on its own, and the other offers some minor value and synergies. I wouldn't run it, but you're looking at multiple combos in the list and have half of this one already.

Grave Scrabbler looks too low impact to me but as functionally a 2 mana 2/2 w/ Raise Dead attached that can be discarded it might be good enough.

Infernal Caretaker looks like garbage to me, even with the low curve.

So one thing you'll definitely find is that you'll run out of cards swiftly, with so few sources of actual card advantage, making Varina's ability less effective. The more mid-range lists stave this off a bit longer by not being able to dump their hands as swiftly, but even there it's easy to get to the point where you can only keep 1 card in hand, or have to hold back cards you'd otherwise want to play in order to make better use of Varina's trigger.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
So one thing you'll definitely find is that you'll run out of cards swiftly, with so few sources of actual card advantage, making Varina's ability less effective. The more mid-range lists stave this off a bit longer by not being able to dump their hands as swiftly, but even there it's easy to get to the point where you can only keep 1 card in hand, or have to hold back cards you'd otherwise want to play in order to make better use of Varina's trigger.
There's probably more CA in there than it looks like at first glance - it's possible I am too aggressive there but I do like riding the razor's edge of enough CA to win but not superfluous amounts :)

The way it *should* run is that even if I'm just putting most of the Varina draws straight into the bin I can benefit from that by keeping the best single card that lets me play a bunch of the stuff from the yard (

I'll keep ya posted with how the games go for sure.

I am planning on adding a Intuition / Sevinne's Reclamation package as soon as another copy of SR comes in the mail, as I think that whole

IntuitionPhyrexian Altar + Gravecrawler + Sevinne's Reclamation is probably too good to pass up.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Just from my experience it becomes very easy to have to choose between multiple mass reanimation spells, or a counter spell and a mass reanimate. And there will be games where making that choice will cause problems.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
Just from my experience it becomes very easy to have to choose between multiple mass reanimation spells, or a counter spell and a mass reanimate. And there will be games where making that choice will cause problems.
Which reminds me that I need to go ahead and slot Volraths stronghold in so I have that archaeomancer lock option :).

Life would be really good with a zombie archaeomancer

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Post by boer0829 » 2 years ago

I like the concept of the deck with putting first a lot of little dudes on the field and then playing Varina. But if you want to play full aristocrats I would add a couple of more life drainers. Maybe swap some things out for:

-Blood Artist
-Zulaport Cutthroat
-Cruel Celebrant
-Bastion of Remembrance

Maybe swapping Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt out for Balthor the Defiled? I like Balthor, since it is a creature so the possibility to dump it with Varina and then mass reanimate him and do it all over again with a Phyrexian Altar the same turn! Also, Agadeem's Awakening doesn't really mass reanimate since you have to choose different mana costs.

Maybe swapping Fan Bearer for Festering Goblin or another black one drop zombie? It has more synergie with Balthor and probably more utility.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

boer0829 wrote:
2 years ago
I like the concept of the deck with putting first a lot of little dudes on the field and then playing Varina. But if you want to play full aristocrats I would add a couple of more life drainers. Maybe swap some things out for:

-Blood Artist
-Zulaport Cutthroat
-Cruel Celebrant
-Bastion of Remembrance

Maybe swapping Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt out for Balthor the Defiled? I like Balthor, since it is a creature so the possibility to dump it with Varina and then mass reanimate him and do it all over again with a Phyrexian Altar the same turn! Also, Agadeem's Awakening doesn't really mass reanimate since you have to choose different mana costs.

Maybe swapping Fan Bearer for Festering Goblin or another black one drop zombie? It has more synergie with Balthor and probably more utility.
The problem with blood artist et al is several of the mass reanimation don't hit them. We have three or four zombies that do similar so my hope is that that's enough. I'll definitely be watching for if I want Maybe one more like zulaport cutthroat.

My experience with fan bearer effects is that they have outsized utility in edh shutting off stuff like some najeela infinites and eldrazi and more.

Agadeems awakening is a land most of the time that has some powerful utility. If balthor was a flip land I'd be more inclined but as is he costs 7. Definitely worth thinking about him tho as it's a powerful effect for sure. My problem with him is mostly that he costs 4 for a weak body and telegraphs your intentions.

I don't hate the idea of more skull clampable zombies. I think it's going to take a while of playing to get the assortment right.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Why Fan Bearer over Binding Mummy? You could pay the same two mana with Varina out to make a zombie and tap not just a creature but also an artifact, and that's the low end of possibility. It can also clear blockers on your turn for an attack, and it can do its thing the turn it comes down.

Fan Bearer doesn't require any help, but it also is never going to make bigger plays, and can't be used the turn it comes out.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
Why Fan Bearer over Binding Mummy? You could pay the same two mana with Varina out to make a zombie and tap not just a creature but also an artifact, and that's the low end of possibility. It can also clear blockers on your turn for an attack, and it can do its thing the turn it comes down.

Fan Bearer doesn't require any help, but it also is never going to make bigger plays, and can't be used the turn it comes out.
Binding Mummy is more of an aggressive measure, providing pseudo-evasion to get by blockers unless you have a way to make zombos at instant speed. Fan Bearer costs 1 and shuts off giant creatures like Drakuseth, Maw of Flames that otherwise are likely to ruin us.

It always surprises me how good the tapping bros are in EDH. You can usually get people to attack someone else if you can threaten one, even if only for a turn.

I'm not sure it'll be good but I'm sure I need more 1 mana zombies to support my gameplan :)

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

You do have ways to make zombies at instant speed. Varina, Cryotbreaker, and some sac shenanigans with Mikaeus.

Also, it combos very well with Tombstone Stairwell:all your zombies tap all theirs.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
You do have ways to make zombies at instant speed. Varina, Cryotbreaker, and some sac shenanigans with Mikaeus.

Also, it combos very well with Tombstone Stairwell:all your zombies tap all theirs.
Yeah there are quite a few of course. I could see it being good. The difference between playing a body on turn 1 and 2 though is quite high. It might be better than Eternal Taskmaster which is rather expensive. Will definitely keep it in my maybe bin.

All things considered though I keep finding myself wanting even more 1 CMC zombies, not fewer. I wish there were more dudes like Cryptbreaker or similar.


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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

So I don't know where Varina has been all my life but this deck is a blast to play. It is definitely a bit wanting in the card advantage dept as built, but Zombie Apocalypse combined with Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt got me there.

I made one sequencing error that almost cost me the early game, where I sequenced my Tithe in such a way that I couldn't get 2 lands off it, and it put me down a land for a while. So gotta keep that in mind. I think I might want Ponder and Brainstorm in this deck too.

The deck did basically what I expected; I curved out with multiple one drops and Shepherd of Rot and managed to loot 3 on my first Varina, Lich Queen trigger, then loot 3 or 4 for most of the rest of the game until I killed the table with a massive Zombie Apocalypse with two life drain guys, some combat damage, and more shenanigans.

Skullclamp put in a ton of work with all the 1-drop zombies, turning them into cards before the apocalypse as well.

Looking forward to playing this one a bit more and remembering I can make zombies with Varina, and maybe adding a few more 1-drops.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

So I'm actually not sure this is an Ashnod's Altar deck as I think about it, it mostly serves as a sac outlet but the only payoff is mana acceleration mostly, it doesn't actually go infinite with anything I don't think.

Right now my sac outlet package is (without AA)
I feel like 1 or 2 more would be nice that were zombies instead of colorless producing altar, but I don't see any obvious great ones. Anyone have any thoughts there?

Corpse Blockade sucks cos it can't attack, Gutless Ghoul is dang close. Stronghold Assassin seems actually decent but not open.

Maybe a tutor for Phyrexian Altar like Enlightened Tutor would be better?

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

There's Grimgrin. High on the curve, and no real payoff, but it's a decent creature. Or Yawgmoth. Not a zombie but tons of value.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
There's Grimgrin. High on the curve, and no real payoff, but it's a decent creature. Or Yawgmoth. Not a zombie but tons of value.
Not sure how I forgot about grimgrin yet again lol. That's probably right. Thanks.

As good as yawg is I will need to think about if I want to play someone who does to zombie apocalypse and yet is super important.

(Just as a side note in case anyone is wondering, I am not tracking changelogs at this point, the deck just changes as it changes fluidly. If it sticks around long term I'll try to get more disciplined.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I got a game in here with Varina in a 5 player game (ugh, a guy looked so sad they roped me in) vs Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow, Ranar the Ever-Watchful, Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver and The Gitrog Monster.

This game was pretty interesting; everyone was attacking and life totals got very pressured. Ranar had a Bident of Thassa, I got a Kindred Discovery and Yuriko was doing Yuriko stuff. I Did pretty great on mana early being able to get a coffers/urborg and play a Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx from my yard with Crucible of Worlds, so I was making about 18 mana or so toward the end game.

I did what I do, making dudes and bashing face, putting zombies in the yard. At one point I had a crucible and a reasonably stocked yard, but nothing I couldn't afford, and Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow was able to be convinced to bog The Gitrog Monster which knocked Gitrog out of the game by clearing their bin of fetchlands, and kept me hitting land drops. I offered to not attack him for a turn and not interact for a turn, which was fine since I had Gray Merchant of Asphodel :P

Critical turn, I drew 8 or so, discard 4 zombies plus Sevinne's Reclamation, then gray merchanted up to 54 + varina's triggers, passed it. Wilhelt did nothing, and the board is super gummed up, and Yuriko sets up some huge turn by putting 3 cards on the top of his library with something or other. Then he looks at the board and realizes he can't get through so I volunteer to take it "for the team." He...went for it? He did 30 or so to everyone, bringing it down to 1v1. with me at 20-ish and him at 18 or so.

My board was kinda meh at this point since I swung a bunch of my dudes out at Wilhelt to get rid of his planeswalker and get a bunch of my guys in the bin because my hand was:
I had a board of Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Murderous Rider // Swift End, Kindred Discovery Crucible of Worlds, Stitcher's Supplier and Plague Belcher with 2 -1/-1 on it. So he knew it wasn't quite lethal but he didn't do the math since he looked at my hand with Carrion Feeder - maybe thinking he could stop it somehow with countermagic.

So what happens is I swing out to draw cards, then play Carrion Feeder which he lets through (??) when he's at 6 or so, which is basically lethal (I can put him to 1 or 2). I sac Stitcher's Supplier and he mills....

Phyrexian Altar Swamp Gravecrawler

So I shift gears and flashback the Sevinne's Reclamation from earlier targeting altar and a land. He lets it go and dies to infinite Gravecrawler.

--

I think I want to cut Sol Ring in this deck. sometimes it's OK, but more often than not I am choked on colors. I think I might just make it another 1/1 zombie or a land. I was pretty choked on U this game, having had to Demonic Tutor for Polluted Delta at one point so I could cast Varina, Lich Queen :P (there was literally no other play since my only white was Cavern of Souls I couldn't even get Tithe.)

Overall the deck is really humming, feels like it might like another counterspell or two. I'm looking forward to adding the new exploit zombie counterspell for sure. Might need to find room for Arcane Denial and possibly Remand.

I really like how much pressure there is but I really wish that Bloodsoaked Champion was a zombie. Some more 2 power zombies in the 1 drop slot that have upsides would be very nice from the new set :P

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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

How has Crucible of Worlds been for you? I have one in my osgir deck. And thinkering about swapping it into my varina list. Big difference with your list is mine has a higher curve.

Also thinking about ordering a Cavern of Souls. Its a land not much discussed yet but i see you running it. Most zombies wont get countered i guess?

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Falkenbach wrote:
2 years ago
How has Crucible of Worlds been for you? I have one in my osgir deck. And thinkering about swapping it into my varina list. Big difference with your list is mine has a higher curve.

Also thinking about ordering a Cavern of Souls. Its a land not much discussed yet but i see you running it. Most zombies wont get countered i guess?
Crucible of Worlds has been exceptional for me. If I have it, it lets me chuck lands and still hit my drops, basically providing true CA from Varina, Lich Queen. Curving into Varina and letting you hit the 4th land for her is a nice thing to do.

edit: for a little context though, if you're not running 6-7 fetches it becomes a lot iffier. I am running like...10? (including Prismatic Vista and Fabled Passage) Because Cosmic Interventionand Sevinne's Reclamation are part of my ramp package.


Another reason I have it is because I play Field of the Dead and fetchland+crucible+field provides quite a lot of inevitability, and it also recurs Field.

The main reason for cavern is to make Gray Merchant of Asphodel uncounterable (and to a lesser extent Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. Sometimes people will try to counter Varina, Lich Queen as well so that's nice. I think, if it's in your budget, it should be played. Lots of upside and lets you keep more greedily if the only white spell you need to cast is Varina, for example. My manabase is really tilted black and it helps.

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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Falkenbach wrote:
2 years ago
How has Crucible of Worlds been for you? I have one in my osgir deck. And thinkering about swapping it into my varina list. Big difference with your list is mine has a higher curve.

Also thinking about ordering a Cavern of Souls. Its a land not much discussed yet but i see you running it. Most zombies wont get countered i guess?
Crucible of Worlds has been exceptional for me. If I have it, it lets me chuck lands and still hit my drops, basically providing true CA from Varina, Lich Queen. Curving into Varina and letting you hit the 4th land for her is a nice thing to do.

edit: for a little context though, if you're not running 6-7 fetches it becomes a lot iffier. I am running like...10? (including Prismatic Vista and Fabled Passage) Because Cosmic Interventionand Sevinne's Reclamation are part of my ramp package.


Another reason I have it is because I play Field of the Dead and fetchland+crucible+field provides quite a lot of inevitability, and it also recurs Field.

The main reason for cavern is to make Gray Merchant of Asphodel uncounterable (and to a lesser extent Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. Sometimes people will try to counter Varina, Lich Queen as well so that's nice. I think, if it's in your budget, it should be played. Lots of upside and lets you keep more greedily if the only white spell you need to cast is Varina, for example. My manabase is really tilted black and it helps.
I have about 5 fetchlands at the moment but also run Field of the Dead. I'm gonna try Crucible of Worlds out for sure as it also ensures you having a landdrop each turn. Switching it out for Sword of the Animist. The Sword been really good for me keeping me up on lands but it comes with an awkward timing of equiping it when you wanna have multiple creatures in play before Varina comes out.

Another Zombie I wanna try out that is in your list is Shambling Ghast. It has one of the better effects of the many sad one drop zombies to choose of aside from ofcourse gravecrawler, cryptbreaker and carrion feeder. At worst it picks of one of those 1/1 elf tokens of the many Lathril, Blade of the Elves decks running in my playgroup ;)

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Falkenbach wrote:
2 years ago
I have about 5 fetchlands at the moment but also run Field of the Dead. I'm gonna try Crucible of Worlds out for sure as it also ensures you having a landdrop each turn. Switching it out for Sword of the Animist. The Sword been really good for me keeping me up on lands but it comes with an awkward timing of equiping it when you wanna have multiple creatures in play before Varina comes out.

Another Zombie I wanna try out that is in your list is Shambling Ghast. It has one of the better effects of the many sad one drop zombies to choose of aside from ofcourse gravecrawler, cryptbreaker and carrion feeder. At worst it picks of one of those 1/1 elf tokens of the many Lathril, Blade of the Elves decks running in my playgroup
My experience with sword is that the sequencing with 4 drop commanders is very strange. Like, you play it on turn 2, then...nothing. Then turn 4 you play your commander. Then nothing. So without ramp on its own you absolutely require a 1 or 2 drop creature and it puts you off your commander on 4 either way unless you ramp with something else. So it's only really good in the mid game and if you play it before Varina it means fewer zombies. I am not a huge fan of signets but I would play a signet before the sword.

If you have a 1 drop and equip sword on turn 3, that's a *decent* play, but 1 drop, 2 drop, crucible, Varina, Lich Queen is generally a stronger sequence for us than 1 drop, sword, equip/ramp, varina (and that is literally the optimal thing for sword to be doing). It's really interesting how much tension the sword has with wanting an aggressive 1 drop.

Shambling Ghast and all the 1 drop zombies even Fan Bearer (which I had to cut to make room for something) have been so good. I'm honestly at the point I'm looking very longingly at stuff like Diregraf Ghoul, as far as 1 drops go. They're just so dang good. Dreadmalkin is one I am actually thinking about.

Shambling Ghast for me has mostly been "skullclamp it for free at some point" but it's really worth playing.

This deck has made me think so much about sequencing in the game. It reminds me a lot of Winota, Joiner of Forces where playing 1 drop creatures is just the best thing you could be doing. If there were enough 1 cmc zombies that actually did something I'd love to run 12-15 of them.

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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

Apprentice Necromancer [/card] maybe this would be a good 2 drop if your deck is build arround it?
Its Instant speed reanimation and works well with:
- Mikaeus → BW protection.
- Prized Alamgam (if you gonna include it)
- Repository Skaab
-sidisi Undead Vizier
-Balthor +3 mana reanimation
-Gray merchant
-Grimgrin if you have another creature to sac on him (as he gets haste)
-fleshbag marauder
- Headless Rider (if you gonna run him)

(I also run Rot hulk in my deck which works great with the necromancer,)

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Falkenbach wrote:
2 years ago
Apprentice Necromancer [/card] maybe this would be a good 2 drop if your deck is build arround it?
Its Instant speed reanimation and works well with:
- Mikaeus → BW protection.
- Prized Alamgam (if you gonna include it)
- Repository Skaab
-sidisi Undead Vizier
-Balthor +3 mana reanimation
-Gray merchant
-Grimgrin if you have another creature to sac on him (as he gets haste)
-fleshbag marauder
- Headless Rider (if you gonna run him)

(I also run Rot hulk in my deck which works great with the necromancer,)
I had forgotten necro was a zombie for some reason :) I am pretty sure that belongs. One problem with it is that I don't have very many payoff zombies but it's certainly decent.

I would love to pick up a Rot Hulk at some point. I almost never do tribal decks so neglected to pick one up until it was too late :P

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