Marchesa, Rose Wins

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Tevesh
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Post by Tevesh » 4 years ago

No sacred cows in the search of improvements:
Changes 12/05/19
Approximate Total Cost:

Yup, cutting Necropotence. This is an Aggro deck, I didn't have time to spend three Black on an Enchantment that didn't threaten the board. Necropotence is very threatening, in a combo deck, otherwise it is just a way to keep myself topped up on cards. Greven can do the same. While he does cost five, I kind of justify that cost because 3BR is far easier to cast than BBB. He has Menace which means he's going to get in. This deck does a lot of self inflicted damage, so he should be swinging with higher than base Power where he can then eat a Creature for cards. Unfortunately, I can't use this to cheat Dethrone but I don't think that'll be a problem. I can also Sacrifice relatively large Creatures to eat into my life total for the next swing, all the while I will be drawing a lot of cards. Judith, the Scourge Diva's pump helps me here, as I'm drawing more cards than I'm losing but the majority of the time I recognize most of my Creatures with be equal power and toughness.

With the speed of the deck increasing, I don't have time to keep effectively six mana open for Westvale Abbey. It's also hard to justify the tempo loss of five Creatures. Thespian Stage will let me copy the best land on the board on a budget. Whether that's my own painlands or some big mana land like Ancient Tomb or a Lost Vale. or doubling a Sacrifice Outlet such as High Market. I can justify holding open three mana much more than six in this hyper aggro deck.

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Post by plushpenguin » 4 years ago

Something tells me that you might even cut stage at some point.

Yes, holding open three mana is easier than six, but if my lessons with aggro decks have taught me anything, it's that during the critical turn you more likely have 0-1 mana to hold up for other effects.

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Post by Tevesh » 4 years ago

Oh definitely, it's just I can't think of any other reliable tri-colour producing land and I'm the maniac who is already running Meteor Crater.

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Post by plushpenguin » 4 years ago

Tevesh wrote:
4 years ago
Oh definitely, it's just I can't think of any other reliable tri-colour producing land and I'm the maniac who is already running Meteor Crater.
Honestly, at this point the most improvements you can make to your manabase will be on-color Khans fetches.

There really just aren't that many rainbow lands that tap for all colors unconditionally (and don't enter tapped). You basically have all of them.

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Tevesh
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Post by Tevesh » 4 years ago

Yeah, that's a little outside of my price range. I rather spend that on other cards instead of buying a single Fetch. It's Fetches or ABURs at this point. Y'know, until Wizards prints another mandatory dual, whether that's completing the Enemy Battlebond Buddies or Friendly Canopies.

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Post by Tevesh » 4 years ago

Adding threats:
Changes 12/24/19
Approximate Total Cost:

Rhystic Study doesn't help me kill the table. It slows them down and sometimes draws me cards but I don't think it gives kill pressure or puts a big 'Deal with Me' sign on. I'm testing out Cytoplast Manipulator. With Graft it can protect Marchesa. As a Human Wizard there are a variety of synergies available from the deck. It can also be used as a low cost way to grab dangerous Creatures other people have. I'm a little skeptical but I know Study hasn't been putting out good pressure. I'm sure our secret R&D member will surely sneak another card out as it seems that Marchesa gets a card that seems tailor made for her every other set or so.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

Gee, thanks for reminding me of Cytoplast Manipulator's existence. There was a Marchesa in my previous group that would routinely use it to steal stuff, sac it off, and get it back permanently. I did not need a refresher of those times :P That said, for those reasons, it should serve you fine. It's odd, watching you shave all the card advantage stuff in recent updates, but chiming in with "wisdom" here seems ill-advised, given the fact you're the one running and understanding the deck and I'm just some guy who reads your posts :P
 
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Tevesh
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Post by Tevesh » 4 years ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
4 years ago
Gee, thanks for reminding me of Cytoplast Manipulator's existence. There was a Marchesa in my previous group that would routinely use it to steal stuff, sac it off, and get it back permanently. I did not need a refresher of those times :P That said, for those reasons, it should serve you fine. It's odd, watching you shave all the card advantage stuff in recent updates, but chiming in with "wisdom" here seems ill-advised, given the fact you're the one running and understanding the deck and I'm just some guy who reads your posts :P
Insight is valuable and welcome; otherwise I'm just yelling out into the void. So, thank you either way.

I'm not too sure if the Cytoplast Manipulator will be good enough for the deck; I might just leave it in the dust with how aggressive this deck is. I think it has potential and I'm testing it out. Most of my tests end with a 'Meh' reaction but occasionally I learn something or the card is more busted than it first appears.

Well, the first auto-include has been printed as far as I'm concerned: Anax, Hardened in the Forge. It's a cheaper Sifter of Skulls and that card has been utterly absurd. Thank you secret R&D member who loves Marchesa and prints so many tailor made cards for her.

Other cards I took note of so far:

Tectonic Giant - Swings and Exiles for Plays or hits every opponent for 3. I like that flexibility.
Atris, Oracle of Half-Truths - I find the mini Fact or Fiction to be funny. I'm probably not going to even test it, I just like the effect.
Nadir Kraken - If my deck wasn't already so shaved down, I would consider this. Protects itself and provides bodies; what we want in an Aggro deck.
Purphoros, Bronze-Blooded - Made me immediately think of [mention]plushpenguin[/mention]'s Marchesa build.
Woe Strider - A free Sac Outlet. These are rare so I took note. It also provides a body and with Escape giving it +1/+1s, it can defend itself, especially since this build doesn't use any reanimation so everything is fodder.
Underworld Sentinel - I'm not too sure if it has a home in my build, but I can easily see a Midrange Marchesa wanting this guy.

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Tevesh
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Post by Tevesh » 4 years ago

Theros is the first update of the year:
Changes 01/24/20
Approximate Total Cost:

I put in the Dross Harvester because I couldn't think of an above average Creature that can swing in. Unfortunately, I do lose my life gain so I'll have to keep an eye on that to see if it matters. In place of the Harvester is Anax, who is absolute house. I don't know who this person we have in R&D but they just keep printing Marchesa cards and I'm starting to run out of cuts. Considering how often my Creatures die and how absurd the other token makers are in this regard (Sifter of Skulls, Desecrated Tomb), here I have a Creature that can possibly make two bodies per death. Sign me the hell up!

Woe Strider comes in place of the Bloodflow Connoisseur. While I like the Connoisseur's ability to protect itself and get massive, card draw is always a nice. I did have to think about this as the Woe Strider can't Sac itself. I do think it is worth it, especially since it does make a Goat when it enters the battlefield. Something I can throw under the bus without hesitation or swing at the Throne for those +1/+1 counters. Furthermore, if I run out of gas and the Strider is dead or discarded from a Smuggler's Copter, then I can always have it Escape with +1/+1 Counters at the ready.

Lastly, I think the Sadistic Hypnotist requires more finesse than I am able to muster. Without the ability to Sacrifice on demand, I can't even think of it as a Sac Outlet. Instead of stripping my opponents of their hands, Syr Konrad can make living very painful. I've been impressed when I saw opposing Syr Konrads in other decks, between my opponents Creatures dying and the random mill effects. In my case, I have the added benefit of all of these leaves the Graveyard triggers and my Creatures die a lot.

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Post by Tevesh » 4 years ago

I guess this is a better land:
Changes 02/15/20
Approximate Total Cost:

My LGS had some spicy deals on MP/HP non-English cards, so I snapped up a bunch of stuff such as this Strip Mine. It'll probably be a better call than my Thespian's Stage.

My friend and I played against a guy who dodged around asking how powerful his deck is. I don't have a cEDH deck but I figure my Marchesa is my fastest, meanest and most resilient to nonsense deck so that's what I played while my friend with went his Karn, Silver Golem deck that does obnoxious Artifact things. Our opponent whose Commanders were Akiri, Line-Slinger and Thrasios, Triton Hero proceeded to do a pretty crazy Turn 1 boosted by his Turn 0 Gemstone Caverns. OK bud, you're playing Sushi Hulk and you don't know if your deck is powerful. Well, to my surprise Marchesa proceeded to repeatedly clean his clock and dominate the pod. I switched out once a fourth guy showed up who is a friend, so I'm not too sure how to take this data point from a three man pod. Though I did revel in him rushing out Moxen only to have Karn eat them all alive.

An update I've been toying with is Field of the Dead. This deck runs a lot of different Nonbasic Lands, so it would very easy to trigger the Field. I do run a higher than average count of Lands for a deck of his average CMC, but that's mostly because of the various Looting cards I have and the necessary to ensure I have Grixis mana. Field of the Dead could be a way to increase my body output with relatively low opportunity cost. I am also giving Castle Locthwain some consideration because of how quickly and aggressively I had to dump my hand with Marchesa, there were a few turns where I didn't have a way to generate card advantage. Some land musings.

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Post by plushpenguin » 4 years ago

Khans fetches right now are pretty low... as in, they are the same price as they were when they were in standard.

My strand I traded for was valued at 16. Delta is 22, mire is 20, and foothills is 18. That may not seem like a big difference, but they are all at least $5 less than they were pre-pioneer.

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Post by Tevesh » 4 years ago

plushpenguin wrote:
4 years ago
Khans fetches right now are pretty low... as in, they are the same price as they were when they were in standard.

My strand I traded for was valued at 16. Delta is 22, mire is 20, and foothills is 18. That may not seem like a big difference, but they are all at least $5 less than they were pre-pioneer.
Thanks for the head's up. It's a bid more expensive in CAD but that bottom dollar is pretty good. I'll have to see if they got anything truly wrecked that I could buy.

I'm thinking Graven Cairns and Cascade Bluffs are the two Nonbasics I'll earmark for a cut. If I do add the two Khans fetches, I'm wondering if I should reintroduce the Tangos for fixing even if they're guaranteed to ETBT.

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Post by Tevesh » 4 years ago

After winning him in a Mystery Booster, why not use Sakashima?:
Changes 03/14/20
Approximate Total Cost:

I haven't seen the Cytoplast in action; however, I do know that Cloning Marchesa or other Creatures of mine can result in absurdities. So while I won't be able to steal through jumping through hoops or providing Marchesa with Grafted protection, Sakashima provides redundancy or can copy another Creature that will be the most advantageous at the time. If that's no longer the case, then I Sac him and turn him into something else.

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Post by Sirlancelots » 4 years ago

I enjoy following all if your updates. I would like to write more about my deck specifics but thought I would drop it here for now for you to review some other card choices.

https://deckbox.org/sets/2459962?mobile=0

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Post by Tevesh » 4 years ago

Sirlancelots wrote:
4 years ago
I enjoy following all if your updates. I would like to write more about my deck specifics but thought I would drop it here for now for you to review some other card choices.

https://deckbox.org/sets/2459962?mobile=0
Sure. I'm going to assume you're looking for ways to tune your deck into a more aggro build as that's what my thread's about. I'm surprised you get by with 33 Lands; does your play group allow more lenient mulligans?

I'm surprised Thalakos Deceiver is worth the effort; I find it there is something worth stealing then I'm doing a bad job of keeping my opponents on a back heel. Oathsworn Knight is a pretty cute gimmick but I'm not sure if he's worth it. I'm not seeing enough pay off Sac Outlets to make me think you're just using a bulkier Lamb as you would in an Aristocrats build. I think that Legion Loyalist is asking for too much when you already have Pyreheart Wolf. He might be great with Marton Stromgald. Demonlord of Ashmouth seems like a way to get you in hot water if someone waits for his ETB and takes out your intentional Lamb; there's got to be a better beater without so much baggage. Ditto with Ancient Stone Idol - both it and Demonlord look like cards that are fine when you're ahead but hot garbage when you're behind. I find that focusing on lowering your deck's floors leads to a stronger deck; the potential be damned.

I do like the pressure Stronghold Rats can put up but I'm not certain if you have enough draw to keep ahead of the rats, especially since you are running Rankle, Master of Pranks. I'm too fast for Ogre Battledriver but he's quite the beast.

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Post by Sirlancelots » 4 years ago

I did miss read stronghold rats. Thought it was each opponent.
Good take on the floor comments and making it more streamlined.
Thakdos has been an all star, but maybe because I am not going fast enough like you said. Curious to see what you think about some other new cards, mainly the free cast cards

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Post by Tevesh » 4 years ago

Sirlancelots wrote:
4 years ago
I did miss read stronghold rats. Thought it was each opponent.
Good take on the floor comments and making it more streamlined.
Thakdos has been an all star, but maybe because I am not going fast enough like you said. Curious to see what you think about some other new cards, mainly the free cast cards
I'm hoping the Blue can stick the landing because the entire cycle looks good.

Considering how often people try to kill Marchesa before she has her +1/+1, I think I'll have to add the Red Free Spell. The Black would also be nice but I like that Snuff Out costs me life.

I'm pretty excited for the land that lets you move +1/+1 counters.


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Post by Tevesh » 4 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
4 years ago
What do you think of THIS guy?!
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He's not for my build, I'm too fast but I think that the Ant is probably mandatory in a Marchesa theft deck. People who won't take the +1/+1s are going to get outclassed by everybody else and if they do, you steal those Creatures. I wouldn't put it in the Midrange or Artifice builds, as you're just inviting death by crackback.

I'm more interested in Nikara, Lair Scavenger. Grim Haruspex and Midnight Reaper specify nontoken deaths; Nikara doesn't and my deck generates a lot of tokens to help with rushing down people's life totals. Though, she might kill me with the cost of life but I definitely would want to test her.

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Post by Sirlancelots » 3 years ago

Prophetic Flamespeaker

Card drawish, trample double strike allows two cards.

Prophetic Flamespeaker
{1}{R}{R}
Creature - Human Shaman
JOU
Double strike, trample Whenever Prophetic Flamespeaker deals combat damage to a player, exile the top card of your library. You may play it this turn.
Fire to destroy. Fire to create.
1/3
Cynthia Sheppard
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Tevesh
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Post by Tevesh » 3 years ago

Sirlancelots wrote:
3 years ago
Prophetic Flamespeaker

Card drawish, trample double strike allows two cards.

Prophetic Flamespeaker
{1}{R}{R}
Creature - Human Shaman
JOU
Double strike, trample Whenever Prophetic Flamespeaker deals combat damage to a player, exile the top card of your library. You may play it this turn.
Fire to destroy. Fire to create.
1/3
Cynthia Sheppard
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What about him? I've tried using him a few times.

I ran him January 14, 2017 until the 22nd; he got cut because I wanted to add an Infect theme and he was the worst draw piece. I put him back in on the 27th of January after taking the Infect theme out; I was made pretty uncomfortable after seeing someone pick up and throw their deck across the room because I killed them with Infect while their whole deck centred around life gain. I don't play with that group anymore.

He stayed in the deck for over a year until he got cut by Scab-Clan Berserker on September 1st, 2018. I was looking more for ways to scale up my damage and while I liked that he quickly got out of control with Double Strike and Trample with Dethrone, he was fairly linear compared to Scab-Clan who could be triggering all the time; I believe this move was to counter the increased amount of spellslingers in the meta.

I found my deck to be short on card draw, so I tried him again on March 23rd, 2019. He lasted for two months until getting cut on May 8th. Krenko, Tin Street Kingpin took his place. I added Spark Double and Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion to the deck as draw pieces with the same update. At that point, I was looking at damage increases and Krenko scales exponentially compared to the linear growth of Flamespeaker. I swing with Krenko, Dethrone and then his own trigger and I make 3 Goblins. Next turn, those three Goblins swing turning into 2/2s with Dethrone and Krenko does the same, but he goes to five power and poops out five more Goblins who will only grow the turn after that. That's a lot more damage compared to Flamespeaker's 4 points, then 6 points, then 8 points, etc. With the increased amount of 3/3 and 4/4 tokens in EDH at this point, 4 or 6 Trampling points of damage is less valuable then the same amount spread across multiple Creatures.

Since then, I've added Yawgmoth, Thran Physician and Rankle, Master of Pranks; both cards can take advantage of Krenko's Goblin spawning far more than the little bit of damage and draw the Flamespeaker provides. I cut Grave Pact because it was too slow in the deck, Rankle allowed me to reintroduce that but on a body that isn't a seven mana Butcher of Malakir. Yawgmoth lets me throw those goblins to kill things, lowers my life total to prepare for a Dethrone and draws cards. That's just what has been added, not including previous synergy staples with so much token creation with Skullclamp, Goblin Bombardment or the host of pingers like Blood Artist and Zulaport Cutthroat.

I like the Flamespeaker but he's just linear when it comes to draw and damage; I need to break that to compete with a poor archetype.

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Post by Tevesh » 3 years ago

Grenzo's back, baby:
Changes 05/08/20
Approximate Total Cost:

I've got to thank Dead President for making me re-evaluate cards for this change; he is starting up his own Marchesa thread and I gave the advice that he should be looking for cards that draw more than one card. So maybe I should follow my own advice. He's digging for Combo Pieces but I'm drawing to just keep the pressure up on my opponents.

Grenzo's Saboteur trigger means I could be drawing a boatload of cards. Sure, I won't be able to keep them, but there might be some good stuff for me to play. It gives me late game staying power as I can cast those 5+ drops but I don't need to clog my deck up with them. More importantly, if he comes down turn 2, I might be able to Exile a card on Turn 3 that'll guarantee I'll be able to cast Marchesa, the deck has a lot of stressful keeps as I need to be able to make Black, Blue and Red while also having relevant threats. There's also a lot of nasty Combo or just annoying cards in the meta - it'll be nice to leave them Exiled just so I don't have to deal with that nonsense. Lastly, I can just Goad my opponents into killing each other - there have been a few games of late where nobody attacks each other, otherwise I might be able to take advantage of the changing life totals. I can quite easily swarm the board and have every Creature Goaded; this reduces lethal crackback potential, my opponents Creatures are probably tapped so my 'get-in-there' factor is high, each of their Creatures will be doing my work for me and it'll stop those stalled out board states as everybody puts shields up.

Grenzo has only have gotten better since his last run with the deck because Rogues Lives Matter with Robber of the Rich being an additional card that cares about Rogues; prior to Grenzo's return it was just Oona's Blackguard. The Blackguard's Counter is going to be great, as while this isn't an Aristocrat deck, I can do some abusive loops during each player's turn with Grenzo coming back with a +1/+1 Counter as a Lamb. With Robber giving me more cards and Blackguard taking them away from my opponents, I have a pseudo fashion of gaining more card advantage against a hostile table. Nicol Bolas, the Ravager and Rankle, Master of Pranks have increased my ability to pressure people's hands. Grenzo's Goblin nature also encourages Goblin Rabblemaster. Lastly, I've since added Desecrated Tomb, Sifter of Skulls, Krenko, Tin Street Kingpin and Anax, Hardened in the Forge as 'bodies-in-a-can', so Grenzo's Goad and Exile Saboteur triggers will be pulling double duty.

Why did Grenzo originally leave? I cut him back in November 13th 2018 for Graveyard Marshal. Yeah, I don't know what meth I smoked. Well, no, I do know. My friends stopped playing Magic when I played Marchesa; they would no longer try to win the game but do every silly, stupid thing they could to make sure that when Marchesa hit the bin, she would stay there. We're talking Stifle on her return trigger and other nonsense. So, that's when I started adding more and more ways to remove cards from my own Graveyard: Dawn of the Dead was one of the more fun, flashy cards but Graveyard Marshal was another. The memery stopped after I consistently had ways to get her out of the 'yard, so I was able to slowly cut cards that got Marchesa out of the yard and Marshal was replaced by Sygg, River Cutthroat who has stayed in the deck, is a Rogue and incidentally draws me cards.

Why axe Loyal Drake? Well, as the meme goes, these drakes aren't loyal. It was more of looking at my other 'single draw' Creatures and I found Loyal Drake lacking. Smuggler's Copter, Benthic Biomancer Mindblade Render and Sygg, River Cutthroat are the other 'single draw' candidates I looked at. At first glance, all of these and Loyal Drake look like single draws, but the cards that dodged the axe this time around each have a key distinction. Mindblade Render triggers whenever an opponent is hit by a Warrior, there's enough random Warriors and Changelings running around that I've gotten those random draw triggers. Sygg is just looking for three life loss for his trigger and people will randomly do that, whether it is losing Mana Crypt's trigger, Fetching a Shock or just hitting another player. That leaves the Biomancer and Copter.

Benthic Biomancer can save himself with two mana that also draws me a card. Biomancer is also a Wizard, which means he smooths over my draws when cast with Path of Ancestry and he can turn into Lamb fodder with either a Sage of Fables or Metallic Mimic. This means he's Looting every time he comes back into play with those out, but I'm also accruing value off of whatever Sac Outlet I'm feeding him to. Copter is great because it is already bulky and dodges Wraths, which means its late game scaling can be absurd - I've had 8/8 or 9/9 Copters punch in with flying. A lot of my Creatures also liked to be 'primed', in that they do something on the battlefield but I don't have too many ways of giving them Haste; the Copter gives them something to do with Crew when I swing in. There's little point declaring attacks with Grim Haruspex or Midnight Reaper in my hand.

In comparison, Loyal Drake doesn't guarantee me a draw. It draws me a card if Marchesa's in play, which isn't all of the time. The drake doesn't have a relevant Creature type nor does it provide me with late game scaling. The final nail in the coffin for my decision was when I looked at all of my static, draw once-per-turn cards, I noticed they all costed two mana. Curve shaving is important, even moreso in Aggro builds. With that, the Loyal Drake gets the axe.

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Post by Tevesh » 3 years ago

Got my copy of Nikara:
Changes 05/27/20
Approximate Total Cost:

Nikara comes in as a draw engine who seems far better than Greven. Greven replaced Necropotence because he was a body and as an Aggro deck, non-bodies still have to put pressure on the board. Necropotence certainly can do that in the hands of a combo deck; dig for the wincon. In Aggro, it's just another draw engine and so I replaced it with a body. I haven't seen Greven in action but I think Nikara will do just as well because she serves a similar 'lose life and draw' function. She keeps Greven's Menace and Humanity, though we do lose a better Job Creature Type with Warrior for Mindblade Render. I think I'll manage to forgive her for Cleric. She also has two power which makes her a target for Imperial Recruiter who I've got to say has a %$#% of a time getting draw engines as many seem to have 3 Power.

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Post by Tevesh » 3 years ago

Mana Upgrade?:
Changes 05/02/20

Out

Approximate Total Cost:

I don't want to cut a Basic but every other Nonbasic is either an amazing utility piece or provides two colours. So, I was trying to figure out which Basic to axe. Meteor Crater was also examined. I used this site's ability to draw a hand and pressed the Scry button to see which cut would hurt the least. I did this roughly twenty times, though I was really looking to see if a Basic or Meteor Crater was indispensable. Due to how often my permanents stick, Meteor Crater rarely gets fully shut off. At worst, it's a Swamp that I need to somewhat finagle - other times, its another tri colour land that comes into play untapped. With how few Basic Mountains and Islands I already run, I decided to cut a Swamp, especially since a lot of my colour producing lands already do Black or Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth makes the point moot.

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Post by hellfiend » 3 years ago

Rogue lives matter? Bitterblossom beckons....

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