Winota - Norin in Disguise

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Boros Norin



So, I won't pretend to be current on modern these days but at one point there was a bit of a pet deck that I was semi interested in which was a boros Soul Sisters deck utilizing Norin the Wary with the traditional mix of Soul Warden creatures and Ranger of Eos type of tutors. Given how resilient Norin as a creature is I have been thinking about if I could make him work in the 99 of a deck for a while. I didn't really go through the exercise of who I would be looking at until somewhat recently when I circled back and I looked at all of the two and three colored RWX commanders to see if there was someone that seemed like they would fit. Then I suddenly realized that most of the things I was looking for were humans and that Winota, Joiner of Forces had a hell of a heavy hit on the targets I was looking for.

Beyond that, I can run FIVE tutors that can go get him that are all humans as well so suddenly I have a very heavy mix of targets that can spin me into a fast Norrin from the 99 as well as a number of white cards that can rez in a pinch as well. White also gives some sweet payoff cards and sustainability not to mention the card advantage the commander lends.

I know that a lot of people really love Confusion in the Ranks and while yea it looks great, I kind of hate chaotic theft and or excessive thefting. I think I want to refrain from using it to get started at least.


Decklist

COMMANDER (1)

INSTANT (2)

PLANESWALKER (0)

Approximate Total Cost:

Last edited by ISBPathfinder 2 years ago, edited 11 times in total.
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Post by Chromaticus » 2 years ago

This is a must build for me — thank you for putting these 2 together!

Will be replacing some of the more expensive cards in your list for some of the less expensive hate bears, since that is a direction I already wanted to go with Winota. (Just going to steer clear of the Hushbringer style ones!)

I agree that you are going to be able to access Norin in the vast majority of your games, 5 tutors seems like plenty, especially since they are hits off Winota.

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Post by Ulka » 2 years ago

Given your reliance on multiple one mana value creatures Abiding Grace seems like a solid choice to add.

I also think Esper Sentinel and Serra Ascendant could also be solid in your list.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Chromaticus wrote:
2 years ago
This is a must build for me — thank you for putting these 2 together!

Will be replacing some of the more expensive cards in your list for some of the less expensive hate bears, since that is a direction I already wanted to go with Winota. (Just going to steer clear of the Hushbringer style ones!)

I agree that you are going to be able to access Norin in the vast majority of your games, 5 tutors seems like plenty, especially since they are hits off Winota.
Yea, Hushbringer effects are a concern of mine. I am not sure how much emphasis on answer them I want to put in but its a concern for sure. I could run more things like Abrade and such I just have to think about how much of a concern I want to put on them. Most of the versatile answers are spells and this deck cares about density of human and non humans alike.

EDIT: I suppose I could also consider looking more at some cards like Goblin Cratermaker, Arms Dealer, and Ember Hauler type of stuffs. Goblin Cratermaker seems like he fits a number of things I would want to answer and I like its easier to cast 1R cost. I suppose I should put some more consideration into him.
Ulka wrote:
2 years ago
Given your reliance on multiple one mana value creatures Abiding Grace seems like a solid choice to add.

I also think Esper Sentinel and Serra Ascendant could also be solid in your list.
Good suggestions here.

Abiding Grace - Yea I see what you mean. If I did include it I think there is some merit in pushing for some of the sac to do thing one drops like potentially Selfless Savior / Benevolent Bodyguard / Alseid of Life's Bounty could be a thing. I still think that narrow recursion is something that I am a little leery of just because of how few of my targets can be hit by it. I agree that there is a lot of value in my one drops I just think that the narrow pool of cards that this card interacts with plus the fact that if opponents have grave hate, use exile / tuck / theft instead of just killing them that this card isn't relevant is often why I avoid narrow but powerful recursion. To some degree as well I think that it competes with some cards like Deflecting Swat and Flawless Maneuver. I guess the point I am making is that rebuild mechanics can be sort of narrow in what they do and how they do it and I am not sure that I like how narrow of an effect Abiding Grace despite agreeing that my one drops are powerful. Personally I think its more likely that I would run Sevinne's Reclamation if running something dedicated to recovery just given that instead of 8 targets it has like..... 40ish targets. It can't be used indefinitely but I think that limiting the rez targets to just 8 is going to make that card a lot more situational. With reclamation you could even just cast it on turn 3 as a ramp spell off of a fetchland for instance. I think where Abiding Grace is going to shine tends to be more in a deck that does some self milling / sacrifice tactics.

Esper Sentinel - I like the conncept of this card I just feel like without making it bigger, paying one mana once situationally is just not that impressive. Rhystic Study for example hits all spellcasts in a turn of all types. This guy doesn't trigger on creature spells and doesn't trigger on repeat castings beyond that first one. I think where he shines is if you plan to make him bigger which this deck can do but I think its a bit winmore by the time it does make him bigger I think the rest of what my deck is doing is probably making this effect a little moot. I guess my point is that I don't feel like I have enough consnistancy in pumping that I like him here. I actually find him a bit underwhelming as a whole given how many options you give to opponents and how he doesn't repeatedly tax casting spells in a turn. I have seen plenty of situations where I see someone cast 10 spells in a turn that I don't love a one shot tax that is optional. I would likely run Glowrider over it myself but my general opinion of Esper Sentinel at this time is that it tends to be more of a 60 card format design than a commander design. I think that the pressure that he lends to this format is bad and the less consistency in having him in an opening hand makes him worse as well. Most of what he has in his design lends him to perform better in 20 life 60 card constructed formats than commander.

Serra Ascendant - She is a strong human and I think she could make the list. I ended up cutting her in part because she is one body and a human. What I ultimately realized is that if I am looking to pressure the board I preferred both Dragonmaster Outcast and Speaker of the Heavens for their ability to make big non human tokens and the pressure they represent is greater as a whole over time. Serra is a superior turn one play but my goal with this build wasn't to make a fast aggro deck that zerged opponents down in the open which tends to be where Serra Ascendant shines. I plan on setting up Norin and means to abuse him so I felt like my tutors really weren't going to get to Serra Ascendant until I am scraping the bottom of the barrel. I guess my point is that I had a lot of setup in my one drops and what I tend to value with this list wasn't fast zerging capability. When it comes to lifegain potential or pressure added there were better targets for my deck to get over her. I even included Weathered Wayfarer over ascendant due to its ability to spin up Field of the Dead. I felt like I had enough of a density of targets for my tutoring and the assembly of concepts is going to take long enough that I felt like it was better to just cut her given what priority of targeting I had on her. I think she belongs more in a deck that is trying to be a fast aggro deck which wasn't quite what my goal for this deck was. I still want to kill opponents via zeroing hp but I didn't feel like I was fast aggro slanted here regardless of who my commander is. I guess we will see how it actually performs but I feel like if the deck ends up being a fast zerg aggro deck then the whole point of being a Norin deck sort of becomes irrelevant.

I probably need to look at my lands a bit more in hindsight. I could probably get away with a Thespian's Stage and I don't have Inkmoth Nexus in there...
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Post by Chromaticus » 2 years ago

Decklist

COMMANDER (1)

Approximate Total Cost:

Focuses -- getting this within budget range. Adding hate bears. Maintaining as much "Norin-feel" as possible.

My initial thought is that the recruiters are too good to lose, and I should spring for them.

Recruiter of the Guard
Imperial Recruiter
Ranger-Captain of Eos

The other one's that I feel like I'll miss:

Purphoros, God of the Forge
Crested Sunmare
Terror of the Peaks

Edit: Updated the list. This deck is a gift for a friend of mine, so I want theme to play as much as possible. He can add his own removal and make his own cuts -- I want all the fun stuff to give him :)
Last edited by Chromaticus 2 years ago, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

@Chromaticus looking solid. I think your budget cuts are totally reasonable. I went back and forth on if I wanted to do the one spellcast / turn thing since I am in boros and not heavy in card draw but lots of the tutor to hand creatures can be very clunky especially like Ranger of Eos in that setup but I think its an incredibly powerful effect. I was going to maybe dip my toe in with Deafening Silence in part because it shouldn't really impair this deck. Let me know how it goes if you get around to testing being heavy on that effect.

I might try to borrow your Vryn Wingmare include. My meta is very heavy on stormy draw / ramp concepts right now and the effects hit a lot of things. I had been going back and forth on Glowrider in here but I actually think I might prefer a non human one with evasion for triggering Winota. I almost included Glowrider but I figured to some degree if it was important I could also rely on some of the recruiters to get my Thalia, Guardian of Thraben but I think Vryn might be a good pickup. I want to do a bit of experimentation on the tax and or single cast a turn but I figured I was juggling enough unknown elements I didn't push too hard on it.

I go back and forth on some of the non human creatures that lack evasion that aren't ETB value based just from the standpoint that they are hard to keep alive potentially through a swing. I went heavier on evasion and or creatures that can be disposable due to that.

Hopefully you can get a slightly improved landbase lol. If not I would probably say at least offset it a little white heavy as a lot of the cards are white.
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Post by Chromaticus » 2 years ago

Just a fun note -- I keep reading this thread title to the tune of "Transformers, Robots in Disguise"

Don't know if that was intentional, but it lines up perfectly.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Yea I also say it in that tone lol. I don't know if it was originally intended but I started doing it before you mentioned it lol.

Working on the list a little and I guess there are some things I keep asking myself. Like for one how much do I want to be combat focused and how much do I care about token production. Some of those tokens are just too good but some like Hero of Bladehold I question a little bit more considering if I find it with Winota I miss like all of its triggers for the turn. I also have a number of anthem creatures and I guess I am just trying to figure out where I stand on those. I likely won't make any moves either way until I get to play the deck some but I just figured I would voice my questioning as to token producers and the anthem guys.

I was working on getting the list together in paper and I came across an interesting include idea: Saltskitter. It doesn't really do anything on its own but it enables a bunch of ETB triggers and seems like he would be BFFS with Norin.

Loyal Unicorn might also be something for me to think about. I keep going back and forth on some of the utility for attacking and not losing creatures but this one is a creature non human which hits a lot of boxes for me. It also gives me mass vigilance and stops anything from dying which is really nifty. I have been thinking about possibly replacing the boros god for now because I want to see how the deck functions before jumping to the assumption that I need something like what he offers.

I don't have any changes right this second just airing some things. I think I likely do want to find some room for Saltskitter though. He seems like he fits with a lot of what I want to do. I believe if I can get him to flicker out from Norin entering and so long as nobody keeps Norin from flickering out Saltskitter would just kind of stay out in exile returning just at the EOT phases to see Norin come in and run away again. The soul sisters / Warstorm Surges would all be insane with this guy so.... yea I think its probably going to get a spot in the list I just have to figure out where.
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Post by Chromaticus » 2 years ago

I did a bunch of goldfishing with the deck —

What I found is that even the really derpy hatebears that are non-humans are pretty dang strong simply because Winota triggers are so good.

I really did not want to keep hands without a non-human 3 drop or less, because it just felt like I wasn't doing anything.

Mardu Woe Reaper and Dragonmaster both felt pretty loose, and I'm not a huge fan of Kosmo's Elixer in your list. Is skullclamp too op for you?

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Post by Ulka » 2 years ago

On considering these lists I realized Mutavault or Needle Spires might be worth looking at as the man lands offer a non human when needed. But I'd be excited to hear back on how games go
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Post by Toshi » 2 years ago

Ulka wrote:
2 years ago
On considering these lists I realized Mutavault or Needle Spires might be worth looking at as the man lands offer a non human when needed. But I'd be excited to hear back on how games go
Unfortunately Mutavault is literally all creature types, including human.
Blinkmoth Nexus and Inkmoth Nexus would be great for their evasion. Den of the Bugbear as a more recent one could be stellar since it can provide multiple bodies over the course of the game.

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Post by Ulka » 2 years ago

Toshi wrote:
2 years ago
Ulka wrote:
2 years ago
On considering these lists I realized Mutavault or Needle Spires might be worth looking at as the man lands offer a non human when needed. But I'd be excited to hear back on how games go
Unfortunately Mutavault is literally all creature types, including human.
Blinkmoth Nexus and Inkmoth Nexus would be great for their evasion. Den of the Bugbear as a more recent one could be stellar since it can provide multiple bodies over the course of the game.
I knew there was a reason I didn't want to suggest mutavault earlier but couldn't think of it when posting. ooops
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Chromaticus wrote:
2 years ago
I did a bunch of goldfishing with the deck —

What I found is that even the really derpy hatebears that are non-humans are pretty dang strong simply because Winota triggers are so good.

I really did not want to keep hands without a non-human 3 drop or less, because it just felt like I wasn't doing anything.

Mardu Woe Reaper and Dragonmaster both felt pretty loose, and I'm not a huge fan of Kosmo's Elixer in your list. Is skullclamp too op for you?
I think when it comes to goldfishing the deck you are going to see better results on average from a more traditional Winota deck with more of an aggro approach. Lots of what I was hoping to do with a shift to a focus on Norin is sort of take it from being a more straight forward aggro concept and move it to a little more of a mid to late game deck. I will be honest in that I have absolutely no idea if I am being successful in that as I haven't played a more traditional Winota deck at all but taking the time to tutor up Norin and then give him things to generate value isn't exactly a fast process. There are advantages in doing this though as once we get some setup done we shift some of the focus away from Winota and sweeping our board becomes harder given how hard it is to catch Norin with interaction.

>=3 Non Humans - Yea I kind of felt like this might be something that bit me in the ass. I did push to get my numbers up on this front but you are probably correct that I should push even harder on this number. I have a bunch of things already in my head where I don't know if they are going to work so I went ahead and did a runthrough of the possible inclusions that I wasn't already running because well, I didn't go as through through those options as I could have. I will post that down below as its lengthy.
  • Mardu Woe-Reaper - I can't really defend it yet as I haven't played the deck yet but it triggers off of Norin entering play so it should end up triggering still a fair number of triggers per turn. Its less than Lunarch Veteran but that graveyard exile each time is something I value. I also didn't put a lot of grave hate in my deck so I felt that the fact that he was easy to tutor, was a human, and easy to recur made me interested. I am still a bit concerned in that he can only exile creatures as I see a bit of spell recursion as well in my meta but holy hell my meta has a lot of recursion. I probably should have devoted more slots to grave hate but I wanted to keep my creature count high so he is one of my two grave hate effects currently. I agree that he won't trigger as much but the commander and Norin both trigger it entering play so, well lets see how it goes I guess.
  • Dragonmaster Outcast - He is a must answer threat to divert attention away from other things. He is also a human and the tokens he makes are huge flying non humans. I am not really sure what more I could ask from a one drop other than for it to perform immediately but even if it does get dealt with its likely I spend less mana casting him than my opponents do answering him. If he lives I get to just yolo some value dragons. I played him recently in another deck and was quite impressed with what he was doing for me. The challenge is if my opponents are on heavy sweepers instead of spot removal or if they have insane draw and ramp but those are problems I have with or without this guy in my list. I think he is great mid to late game value generation and also something to draw attention away from other things I am doing.
  • Cosmos Elixir - To be honest, I haven't played with this card yet mostly because I just haven't gotten to play much magic the last few years (kids and covid). But what I do like about it is that when you play it, you know if you will draw or not and it happens very quickly afterwards. I have played quite a bit of mono white and mono red and played things like Endless Atlas in more than one deck. Paying four mana once and having a Phyrexian Arena that draws the turn it enters is something I want to try out. It is true that if we lose life it could become a problem but we are sort of an aggressive deck full of lifegain. I think I am willing to see how it goes. If it lures people into dropping their blockers to try to lower our life it might mean more Winota triggers so... I don't know yet.
  • Skullclamp - I love the card, I just am not willing to kill most of my creatures for it. I went through my humans and there were like 3-4 I would kill to it (mostly the tutors). I do make some tokens but really it doesn't feel like I have a ton of token production in the list and most of them I am trying to turn sideways to trigger Winota. Its possible it could make the list, I just didn't see much in my list that I felt there was more value in putting the clamp to than in attacking. I guess its possible to put the clamp on a creature then attack but my experience has been that anything that is clamped that you want dead won't die to combat.
Ulka wrote:
2 years ago
On considering these lists I realized Mutavault or Needle Spires might be worth looking at as the man lands offer a non human when needed. But I'd be excited to hear back on how games go
Yea I keep going back and forth on manlands and what counts to use. I still need to update my list to run Blinkmoth. I might also run the Spires. I was also sort of contemplating Mishra's Factory but I am also competing to run a bunch of other utility lands so my counts aren't infinite. I put bugbear in my list starting but I suspect its not going to impress me.

The downside of the manlands is they are mostly going to be gameplans for after I get swept and going to varry a lot based on what my commander costs and how much mana and resources I have available. There is real chance that in my own meta I get bombarded by spot removal rather than sweepers that are going to keep me off of my commander getting triggers. We will see how bad that is but everyone is crazy on draw / ramp / spot removal where I am at and the manlands are mostly an insurance policy for sweepers. Just in mentioning all of this makes me think about including Deflecting Swat in my list lol. I should probably do that... I haven't played the deck yet so I could be very off base but that is my thought right now.



I ran the hypergeo math on my current 23 humans and I came back with an 80% chance to find at least one human. The challenge is going to be that thinning is totally going to be a problem. I have five tutor humans and fetchlands. What will happen as the game goes on is that I will remove a few humans and stack the bottom of my deck to be more dead of human targets but then I will shuffle and my deck is going to be far less dense with humans at that point. This could be ignored to some degree by removing tutors from my list but the whole point is sort of to get Norin out and into play.

Anyways, I looked through ALL of the 0-3 cmc non human creatures we can run (It took almost two hours...) I tried picking out anything that was at least midly interesting to put into a list and cull down from there to look into interesting non humans. I primarily looked for things beyond just like, its a vanilla flyer because at that point I could just run Soltari Foot Soldier and I think its the best cheap / evasive non human to be had if just turning sideways and not being killed in combat is the objective. I also ignored any defenders because as much as I love Wall of Omens.... it can't attack.
That is a lot of cards still so lets look at what I think the highlights of what I am not currently running seem to be:

In my opinion best considerations:
  • Signal Pest - Its evasive and it acts as an anthem.
  • Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer - So, he ramps into Winota and can function as a weird card advantage. He lacks evasion so once everyone has blockers he is going to have a problem but a faster commander is something to consider. I suppose its a bit like running moxen in a way in that they are great early but weak later. He follows the trend there.
  • Daxos, Blessed by the Sun - He triggers the commander and is also a soul sister effect. It is just my own creatures he triggers on but he probably also gets such a big back end that there is likely somewhere he can attack and not die to or shift to defense in a pinch.
  • Flametongue Yearling - Its a good ETB with scaling nature. The problem is going to be that it MUST target a creature so it can't be the only thing in play when you play it or it self executes. Still though, I think it checks a lot of boxes and I like that drawing it later still seems fine.
  • Goblin Cratermaker - It seems good against most Torpor Orb effects that get played and assassinating artifacts is still quite relevant in most situations.
  • Bygone Bishop - Lots of cheap creatures in the deck so it could work I suppose.
  • Duergar Hedge-Mage - I forget about this guy existing like all the time. I guess I don't play much ETB boros lol. Its a really strong effect though so I should probably get him in here.
  • Hanged Executioner - Two flyers for three mana and a solution to a problem for later. This seems like something I should be running. I like that it can answer the Torpor Orb creatures too.
  • Skyscanner - ETB value with flying.
I mostly did all of this searching to figure out what I would be adding next if I made any cuts. I had a number of cards that I considered cutting for one reason or another but my list of cut considerations sort of looks like this right now:
This post has taken me..... almost three hours to complete at this point so..... I am going to wander off but any input is appreciated. I still want to run Saltskitter too...
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Post by Chromaticus » 2 years ago

That post is a labor of love! I'm considering Selfless Savior in addition to the ones you mentioned, but now I've really got to look through that list. The catch-up on land guys are attractive.

For cuts, adds:

Regna for Saltskitter seems pretty free.

Also, seems like the deck for Panharmonicon. Are you avoiding it for win-more reasons?

I considered Pandemonium as well, but I'm fairly sure that ends up backfiring and taking out my hatebears easily. Combines pretty well with -Iroas, God of Victory but that's pretty loose.

Edit:

Just attacking creatures? Woof. What a bummer.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Sorry if this gets a little funky. I was planning a bunch of changes, trying to give some feedback on what I had tested so far, and highlight things I am watching moving forward and in retrospect the game highlights came out a bit funky. Ohhh well here we go:

Ok, I ended up playing this deck against a friend in some 1v1 games. Its important to mention that in this setup my attacks are more awkward in that I can't just choose the most open opponent but I am also less likely to encounter spot removal because we are both playing multiplayer decks in 1v1 and I expect my commander will be a spot removal magnet to some degree (just an assumption).

I should have done some notes earlier as I am going to have to go a little more vague as we played a lot of games and only 3 or 4 were with this deck. I guess I will talk about concepts to some degree rather than trying to do breakdowns of the games. I won all but one of the games with this deck where he used Cyclonic Rift two turns in a row while tempo pressuring me.

Human Counts - my hyper geo for the deck puts me at about 80% chance to hit a human. I noticed a TON of whiffs though and to some degree I chalk this up to shuffle effects while thinning my deck of humans. My tutors are also often hitting my humans so.... I guess my chance to hit is going to go to %$#% real quick. I didn't feel like it was too much of a problem because it frontloads my chances and that was mostly what I was looking for in these games.

Anthems - Angrath's Marauders, Rick, Steadfast Leader, and Blade Historian were all literally insane. I was trying to figure out if there were much for targets that I felt like I would tuck back into my library if they died and I think these guys are some of the few that I felt like I would want to push back into the deck if they die. I had a lot of boards where it wasn't very threatening then these guys hit and suddenly people were dying. This all said, I did replace Mirror Entity before the games (I can recall with what) and I think I likely will end up making that cut. I also found Hero of Bladehold once or twice and holy hell that card is getting cut. I was really displeased with how long it takes to spin up its value. When you find it off of Winota it does kind of nothing. Then the next turn hits and its a small anthem with some bad attackers who are easily killed that don't trigger the commander for more. I was extremely displeased with Hero so.... thats gone. Somehow I never found any of the lifegain payoffs which is odd because I run a lot of them but I guess only one is a human. I need to run them back more and see if I can see them in action.

Card Draw / Hitting Lands - Holy hell I have an issue with drawing more cards and hitting my lands. I thought about going into Land Tax but I don't know that I want to go that far because of the fact that its a noncreature and my creature counts matter a lot here. I am going to make some changes to try to draw more cards as it was something I definately saw issues with. If someone answered Winota the first time she came down right away it was really bad on my ability to keep functioning. I probably need more draw lol.

Three or less mana non-human creatures - Yup, we need more of these. Its going to be a focus of mine but I think we also have to be a little pickier about what we run for these. The deck seems to have a lot of early game reliance on Winota which I think our opponents are going to be aware of. I saw some of the creatures from the deck like Righteous Valkyrie and others that don't really always do things and.... they weren't great. I think Valkyrie can get to the anthem but its going to take a lot of work and the deck is going to be firing on all cylinders when it does get there.

Life above starting - There are a few cards like Speaker of the Heavens, Righteous Valkyrie, and Ajani, Strength of the Pride that care about our life total. I guess I am not gaining as much life / defending my life as well as I thought I might. I need more testing before I move to cut them especially given that I think that Speaker of the Heavens seems really strong if we can consistently get there. I guess my early thoughts are that it might be a little inconsistent. I need more testing.

Lets talk about things I was impressed with real quick:

Norin the Wary - He was everything I wanted him to be. I guess he met my expectations.
Mardu Woe-Reaper - He triggers lifegain but beyond that I really valued his grave hate triggers. Lots of the Soul Sister effects need another payoff to really make them do work. Even though he doesn't trigger on everything the added value of grave hate felt amazing to me.
Blade Historian - I feel like I saw him in almost every game and I was VERY impressed every time I flipped into him from Winota. We will see if drawing him makes me change my mind at all but wow mid combat having him has been crazy.
Rick, Steadfast Leader - I really liked the size buff + adding mass lifelink. I only saw him once but that size buff and lifelink added onto Norin still count with the warstorm surge effects. That might be a bit narrow but flipping him mid combat was still really impressive and won me a game.
Angrath's Marauders - Very similar effects to Blade Historian. I am a little less impressed with its cost to cast it but flipping it from the deck felt great. I might not be as impressed if I have to cast it though.
Goblin Rabblemaster & friends - I was impressed by them but in a lot of cases even curving them I found the token getting thrown away. I had a game where I got to build to three tokens before I had problems and it was really good for Winota triggers. This was again a situation of upfront hitting them but they are really strong starting if you can keep a token or two alive.
Radiant Solar - I got to cast it once and I finished the long dungeon (mad mage) by my next turn lol. I was really impressed with the value chain she brings. Looking forward to seeing a bit more of her but this is exactly the type of deck that is going to make amazing use of this card. Very pleased and looking forward to testing it more.
Genesis Chamber - I saw it in one game and got to pair it with Norin. I quickly climbed to like seven tokens and attacked with them with Winota and ran my opponent over essentially off the back of just this card's tokens and my commander.

DECK CHANGES:
  • Thalia, Guardian of ThrabenEsper Sentinel I will be totally honest that I don't know about this change. I have had criticism of Esper Sentinel in this format since it was spoiled. I do have a humans matters concept though and I have a few ways I could pump him up. I am also having issues with card draw and I run a bunch of tutors that could find him as well. I don't know if I will like him but it feels like perhaps I need to give him more of a shot in a few lists. Thalia was fine and I think she does more for slowing opponents down but if you can pump up the Sentinel I think he will draw you cards and I think that is probably something I need a touch more right now.
  • Mirror EntityMangara, the Diplomat Enetity's pump effect seems a tad expensive and he doesn't do much else for this deck. I am hoping to get a little bit of draw out of Mangara and its a human for a human so lets give it a shot.
  • Hero of BladeholdKeeper of the Accord Hero is too slow to get triggers and too slow for the tokens it makes (if they survive) to trigger my commander. It just felt all together slow. I am hoping to see if I can get a little faster performance out of Keeper. I am primarily including it for the land ramp here as while I do think I could possibly get some tokens it doesn't seem too likely to be a normal thing. I am adjusting my landbase a little to encourage this sort of trigger a bit more as I will be up to four effects after this change in this deck that cares about me having less lands.
  • Resplendent AngelPilgrim's Eye For now, I just need some value and a cheap flyer and I think I want something a little more guarenteed than the angel. I think Resplendent is still good but hitting the lifegain goal is challenging as it takes a lot of setup or putting mana into it. Winota can still flip creatures to play and gain me life off a soul sister but the setup is high to get the angel token generation so for now lets go with something a little simpler.
  • Righteous ValkyrieSkyscanner similar to Resplendent I just want some cheap value evasive creature.
  • Iroas, God of VictoryDuergar Hedge-Mage I end up pushing for evasion so much that a card dedicated to more evasion feels a bit odd. Instead I will just shift to some removal on a disposable creature and call it good.
  • ReveillarkBoreas Charger just trying to bring the curve down and have more cheap evasives. I also found that I needed to keep pushing to hit my land drops so I feel like I am going to test this out and see how I feel about it. Charger isn't something I would normally be excited about but a 3 drop flyer with some ramp / card advantage ETB seems to be about where I need to be right now.
  • Regna, the RedeemerSword of Fire and Ice I need more draw and while Regna seems sweet, the setup to get her working is still a bit spotty. Also Norin can't trigger her so I would need a soul sister to trigger off of someone else's play for the turn which brings me down to three possible soul sisters as the others don't trigger on opponents plays.
  • Impact TremorsScroll Rack I often have a hard time with cards that just go face in that they can't bail me out of problems. I will still keep Purpheros but he hits twice as hard for one card and has an option to anthem my creatures. I don't like when I can only go face I guess. I have been thinking about Scroll Rack for a bit and I just increased the number of tutors in the deck. Pushing cards that aren't good in a situation back or pushing humans back into the deck seems like a useful trick. I will test it out at least and see what I think.
  • Den of the BugbearBoros Garrison The cost for bubear's activation is too high. Also bounce lands sort of extend your lands in hand and put you behind on land count which matters for a few effects I am running.
  • Dwarven MineLotus Field Without more dual lands to play I felt like I couldn't easily hit the mine effect until somewhat late in the game. I also unfortunately drew the damn thing early a bunch and couldn't ever trigger it. I want to give Lotus Field a shot with some of the less land count concepts.
  • Forbidding WatchtowerFlagstones of Trokair Trying to reduce my ETB tapped land count a bit and Flagstones fits the Lotus lands concept.
  • Flamekin VillageLotus Vale Less tapped lands and more less land concepts. I am not as sure on this land as it can be targeted by opponents but I own a few so time for testing.
  • Hanweir BattlementsInkmoth Nexus I wasn't really finding haste to be too relevant as the cost to activate was as much as activating my flying manlands so I figured I would cut into the haste some.
  • 1 MountainThespian's Stage I don't love cutting basics but it still leaves me at 11 basics in the deck and my plains count seems to be the ones I will be tutoring a bit more. I also cut the Dwarven Mine for now so I think that cutting my mountain count slightly should be fine but I still am running Emeria and my plains searching count went up. Thespian has three lands I just added that tap for more than one mana that it can copy so that seems useful to me.
Watch List:
  • Speaker of the Heavens - I noticed that I wasn't gaining quite as much life as I expected. I need to play more games especially ones that go long in multiplayer but I have some concern that I might not hit and maintain the life total needed for this card. Lots of my games in 1v1 were fast though and I can't base too much on what I saw there. I need to test more in multiplayer games with this.
  • Enlightened Tutor - I just had card advantage issues so a card disadvantage tutor is going to go on my watch list from that. I won't make any change yet especially since I could tutor for a card advantage engine but its a concern of mine.
  • Chaos Warp / Generous Gift - Being noncreature one for one answers I guess the question is if I could get them to somehow feel less off theme for the deck. Probably not especially if I need an answer to some type of Torpor Orb effect but they are on my list.
  • Ajani, Strength of the Pride - Same concerns as with Speaker of the Heavens. Getting this sort of thing to be setup might be winmore based on things working. One of the worst things that can happen is Winota gets countered / spot removed before I get to trigger her. Ajani feels like it could take more setup than I can lend him possibly.
  • Emeria, the Sky Ruin - I don't know that there are enough fetchable duals that count as plains. Being enemy colors there are only 3. I need to test more especially with these less land cards I just added.
Lots of things are a bit experimental right now and I am sorry about testing some expensive landbase changes but I think there was enough of the less land concepts that made me want to experiment a bit more with running less. Anyone who wants to try some similar type of cards can always look into the Karoo cycle and while they aren't as good they are budget friendly. I ended up on two evasive creatures that get me lands if I am behind because they were cheap non human flyers and by then I was already considering if I could make the less land concept work.

I had included Weathered Wayfarer to search up Field of the Dead but some of the new lands I added can also make for a good opener if you open with Wayfarer letting you start by playing him turn one, Turn 2 you tutor and play Flagstones of Trokair, Turn three you tutor and play Lotus Field ramping a land off of the Flagstones. Turn 4 you tutor and play Thespian's Stage copying Lotus Field putting you at seven mana from lands. The downside is it takes up the first four turns of play but its a good ramp start if you don't mind giving up some early game for a ramp start. I have no clue if I would do that but I do that in another deck of mine that is mono white that plays slower.
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Chromaticus
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Post by Chromaticus » 2 years ago

Updated my list -

I'm building this for a friend of mine who, before this post ever existed, mentioned that if he were to build a deck it would either be a staxxy, Gaddock Teeg type of deck or a Norin the Wary deck. Hence my immense joy when you proposed Winota, Norin in Disguise!

I'm glad I held off to the next paycheck for ordering cards — you made some progress with your list that I was able to learn from. Love the catch-up mechanic, and the deep dive on non-human creatures.

What are your thoughts on Scholarship Sponsor ? I didn't order it, but thought of it immediately afterwards.

I also doubled the budget to $200, which let me get in the the tutor guys and the major payoffs. No Rick, Steadfast Leader or Heliod, Sun-Crowned sadly, but there's always Xmas if he's enjoying the deck.

Since this is largely about the gift and sentiment aspect versus making the absolutely most competitive version, I leaned hard into the creatures and payoffs, and will let him worry about adding removal as needed. I'm sure there will be studs and duds as he plays that will make cuts fairly easy.

Side note: I attempted to put this together as much as possible on MTG Arena - what a disappointment that was! No Norin the Wary to fetch meant that I was playing a bunch of derpy lifegain payoffs. It's very fun watching the triggers stack up for Winota, and I did get a couple ideas - Lena, Selfless Champion was particularly strong, and I got to feel the difference between early Winota, Joiner of Forces enablers and none - making me up my numbers a bit.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

Sounds like a really sweet gift @Chromaticus. Let me know how his deck is going if you get to see it played.

Scholarship Sponsor - I think its fine either way but I would be hesitant to go in on it until I see how everything is going with the rest of them. My concern is always sort of leaning towards giving opponents resources in the case that someone is ramping out of their mind but I also think that the bounce / sac lands need some testing on my front before I really feel like I can endorse that concept as a whole. Its cheap to get a copy but I also think its likely not my favorite of the bunch. If I find it to be a really good mechanic I may explore it but for now I will probably hold off for some testing with everything else.

MTGA - Ooooooh that sounds tough. Also with the historic brawl they have brackets which to my knowledge is largely based on what your commander choice is and to my knowledge they put Winota in the top bracket (aka the most competative commanders).

EDIT: Lena, Selfless Champion - I should probably try her out. It feels like so many of the played wraths these days are non traditional things though that I am a bit leery of it. There are still probably more things she does protect from but all of the Cyclonic Rift, Toxic Deluge, Tragic Arrogance, and Living Death (to name a few) triggers all walk right past indestructible. I have been way down on indestructible in general the last few years given how many very powerful effects walk right past it as a protection. I will say though her token production count does look really good though after playing this deck a bit.
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Post by TranceKat » 2 years ago

Hi ISB,
I haven't piloted this yet, but just thinking out loud.. Why not drop some of the non humans and replace them with sorcery / instant / artifact methods of creating non human tokens, and mkre humans instead? Could bump the human count up as well since there are several put X tokens where X >1 spells out there.

https://scryfall.com/search?q=+commande ... mc&dir=asc

https://scryfall.com/search?q=+commande ... mc&dir=asc
Thoughts?

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

TranceKat wrote:
2 years ago
Hi ISB,
I haven't piloted this yet, but just thinking out loud.. Why not drop some of the non humans and replace them with sorcery / instant / artifact methods of creating non human tokens, and mkre humans instead? Could bump the human count up as well since there are several put X tokens where X >1 spells out there.

https://scryfall.com/search?q=+commande ... mc&dir=asc

https://scryfall.com/search?q=+commande ... mc&dir=asc
Thoughts?
I haven't played it enough to say that that isn't the way to run things but I had a few reasons as to why I didn't load the deck full of effects like Raise the Alarm.
  • I felt like it shifted it to trying to play a fast aggro deck focused on closing out the game. My gameplan was to set up some sweet sweet value engines and I felt like while I could still benefit from getting more triggers of Winota sooner it also felt like it was trying to make the deck fast and explosive at which point the question became.... why do Norin at all rather than just being a fast explosive Winota deck. I am not saying it can't try to be both but most of the tutors don't actually make the deck very fast, they are in there to set up Norin so the fast version of Winota probably runs a lot less tutors. Tutoring is actually kind of bad as it shuffles your deck where as the bottom of your deck is likely to be human light. An ideal aggro Winota deck that isn't running silly things like Norin probably should consider not running shuffle effects if I am being honest.
  • It puts more pressure on Winota. What I mean by this is that most of the random token producers are just... kind of bad cards without the commander. The deck already feels kind of heavily reliant on Winota early on and shifting to more token production pushes it even more on that front. It means that games where she gets countered or spot removed quickly are going to be even rougher.
  • The token stuff tends to be worse the later you draw them. They make for good early game plays but when you blow your hand and are looking for lands to replay your commander after you get swept that stuff really sucks.
  • Sweepers - I have a fear of sweepers with this deck. It goes rather wide and sometimes it might result in a player dying from that but it also might end up with a third or more of your humans in play. If someone sweeps from there the deck becomes somewhat light on human targets not to mention the need to rebuild. I think if you just go as fast as you can it exacerbates the issue of sweepers and while it might help guarantee a kill I don't think this deck is one that kills all of its opponents in one go all that much. You would need a really sick board setup for that.
  • Tokens tend to get bad when the board stabilizes. What I mean by that is its not that unlikely that everyone on the board eventually gets to a state where they all have a few 2/2s that can eat a few attackers. Its part of why I pushed more for evasive creatures and evasive creatures with some sort of value or role primarily. Tokens sound great when you get to cast them on curve but when you draw a Raise the Alarm for your turn on turn 6+ the card feels a lot more lacking. If you wanted to run enough number of those cards to see them early it will mean that you will also see them late. I like to look at cards from a standpoint of what does this card + my commander do for me at different stages of the game and I didn't like what a lot of the one shot token producers did for me outside of hitting them on curve.
I agree that the tokens are really aggressive when you look at them from the standpoint of curving them but I really didn't like them all that much off of the curve. I don't have anywhere near sufficient testing but in the games I did have I was getting as high as a 50% miss rate on my commander's trigger finding me humans at times due to the shuffling as well as several tutor targets being humans as well. Winota was almost always central to my game progression in the early turns of the game and I saw several games where I had issues getting enough draw / value generation to hit lands 6 and beyond on curve which is part of why I shifted to a little more draw and land concepts recently.

I also keep looking at the fact that my end goal isn't just being a fast aggro Winota deck. If my goal shifts to speeding the deck up and going faster then realistically the point of that would be to cut the Norin concept as its not something that lends itself to being faster. My goal with that was to set up something super cool and sweet that nobody is really expecting. I think there are a ton of really cool things and interactions it has as well but none of it really lends itself to being the fastest version of winota deck so much as shifting the deck to a little more of a mid range or go long deck with a value plan that isn't just going face as hard as I can.

Overall though, I just felt like the deck needed more value to keep it chugging though. Tokens felt a little too glass cannon for me. Its hoping that you can just flop your opening hand and that everyone dies to the first push kind of a concept. I was going for something that had a little longer run to it that could take a hit, interaction with the commander, and or sweeper and not fold to lack of draw action. Getting some value out of a creature with evasion that then goes on to swing every turn until you get swept is a lot more appealing to me.
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Post by maxblaster5000 » 2 years ago

What do you think of Brutal Cathar // Moonrage Brute from the most recent set? I like that it's human on the front and non-human on the back, plus it seems like good removal.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

maxblaster5000 wrote:
2 years ago
What do you think of Brutal Cathar // Moonrage Brute from the most recent set? I like that it's human on the front and non-human on the back, plus it seems like good removal.
Skyclave Apparition and Fiend Hunter are adjacent enough cards that I think its worth bringing them into the equation when talking about Brutal Cathar // Moonrage Brute.

So, I guess there is a lot of complications here in part due to how Winota functions. We want non humans to play before her and we want to flip into sweet value and board powering up humans in her trigger. Given that Winota's triggered humans enter attacking but also protected with indestructible for the turn I think that the value in flipping into evasive, ETB, and or removal based humans is a lot less relivant. I generally want to find humans that are just always good and some of my concern with this type of effect is that I generally want to time it for when I want the effect rather than just having to yolo value this weird temporary removal effect.

Now, I think its also relivant to talk about what versions or variation of this effect would be my preference if I were to run one. I think the effect is fine if you want it, but I think its important to look at what the options are.
  • Skyclave Apparition - I REALLY like that it can hit non creature targets and whatever it hits is permenantly exiled. The token that it gives to opponents on death is more or less always going to be worse than what we took away from them. It can curve before Winota and even in those situations you can generally find a mana rock or random enchantment if you aren't able to hit someone's commander already with this.
  • Fiend Hunter - Its also a human. I generally consider this card more of something to consider when running sac outlets as he can permenantly exile targets if you sacrifice him while his ETB is still on the stack. I still think that he is reasonable from the standpoint that you could exile one of your own creatures with an ETB as an option for a post sweeper start as well as getting another ETB out of it. I don't think its fantastic here though and I think I would generally prefer Skyclave Apparition without a large amount of access to spot flicker or sac for this guy.
  • Brutal Cathar // Moonrage Brute - I guess the selling parts of this guy are that its a human, flips to non human, and can exile multiple targets. My issue with him is that his removal is very temporary and the more interaction you plan to play against the worse I feel he becomes. I also think that in commander its going to be very rare that your opponents wont cast a spell on their own turns which makes flipping to the backside and or getting multiple exiles out of him seem like it would be a rare occurance without being some sort of draw go deck yourself.
My own take away from Brutal Cathar is that he feels very fragile and his removal feels the worst if you plan to be interacted with. I would much rather play Skyclave Apparition myself but I also encounter a lot of people interacting with what I am trying to do. If you are in a meta with low interaction and removal it might be ok to use Brutal Cathar but in general I really don't like the idea of using slow sorcery speed removal that walks into a Wrath of God and hands back the most problem creature that used to be in play to my opponents as a reward for sweeping me. I am not a big advocate on average of temporary effects like Oblivion Ring though and in a deck like this where sweepers and interaction are already a fear of mine I would be very careful about this type of effect. If I am looking to run a creature based O Ring effect in this deck I feel like Skyclave Apparition is where I would start personally. I think its a lot better to be a good on curve play that doesn't give its removed thing back than it is to be able to target any creatures.

I didn't go into talking about it here but I also think that Palace Jailer could be discussed as well. I think that this deck is probably really bad about defending monarch but it provides temporary disruption to an opponent while spinning up a card draw mechanic that this deck is probably really good at taking away from opponents at the cost of probably taking more damage over time while its in play (because again this deck doesn't seem like it defends itself all that great). This deck does gain life though but I didn't bring it up much in this post in part because I think that its more of a discussion point of card draw effects that this deck could use than it is a disruption / removal effect.
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Post by Chromaticus » 2 years ago

Having so much fun with this - sent a picture of just Confusion in the Ranks . Then Genesis Chamber . Then Glowrider .

He said, was thinking Norin the Wary until I saw a white card.

Showed a pic of the (foil) Norin the Wary .

He has no idea it's a deck for him!

TCG refunded Crested Sunmare and Duergar Hedge-Mage , so I will likely slot in a couple interactive spells to get him going.

Here is hoping the actual commander and Legion's Landing // Adanto, the First Fort (the last package to arrive!) get here in time for game night this week. Don't think I can stand another week of waiting to see this one in action.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 2 years ago

@Chromaticus lol looking forward to hearing how it goes.

I managed to play something like 5ish games of 4 player magic with this deck yesterday. It was really fun but as I had thought this deck attracts some attention and it is kind of weak to interaction from value / control decks. In most of the games I walked into sweepers or spot remvoval that was heavily problematic. I ended up winning only like one of the games (I will outline things in a spoiler but briefly as there were a lot of games and they wen't by kind of fast).
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I will do my best to recap the games from what I can recall. There were a lot of games so its going to be a bit fuzzy at this point.

First game I ended up mulliganing into a strange hand that had just the wrong manna and then didn't draw more lands. I almost got a cool setup where I did a T3 Lotus Vale and managed to play Keeper of the Accord which I was extremely excited about but he got IMMEDIATELY spot removed. It was a rough start and I just stumbled like hell on my own lands. It was like a 2 colorless lands + Lotus Vale start which in retrospect was super awkward but I also kind of assumed I might draw more lands before I played all of my lands out which didn't happen. I probably should have mulliganned but I think I already was down to six when I kept the hand that I did here.

There was one game where an opponent opened going first with T1 Exploration 2 lands. T2 Crucible of Worlds with access to a fetchland. T3 Azusa and he had 8 lands in play when we all had two with no real board presence while he was playing 4c omnath. We literally all agreed that he won that game and moved on rather than taking the time to have him play it out.

I opened with Norin + a Soul Sister + Weathered Wayfarer and managed to Mana Crypt my way into a T3 Archangel of Thune. The player immediately after me whom happened to be first had T2 Demonic Tutored a Nevinyrral's Disk which he played immediately after I played the Archangel. I was powering up and I might have been able to hit him for like 30ish but the other aggro player went to Swords to Plowshares someone else's commander and they convinced him instead to hit my Archangel for god knows what reason and it cut my power back to like 18. I could have still hit the Disk player decently which I did hit him for some but then he popped and took Norin from me. I tried rebuilding by playing Krenko, Tin Street Kingpin + Mentor of the Meek but then someone else wrathed me too. I just couldn't recover from two early game sweepers and kind of fell flat. This game felt like an example of tripping over all of the removal as an aggro player.

The final game I opened with a T1 Legion's Landing. T2 Mana Crypt Winota. I managed to flip Nykthos Paragon in as I got through on an empty board. It was really ironic that the Legion's Landing token has lifelink as it buffed my board. T3 opponents still didn't have defense so I kept attacking and I played some humans from my hand. This game spiraled out of control as I stacked big ass counters on a bunch of humans that I kept drawing but mostly just ran my opponents over. I didn't get around to finding a tutor or Norin this game but it just played out as an aggro Winota game.

I think there was another game too. I can't recall though offhand. Most of the games that I struggled came down to the fact that as an aggro player I drew a lot of attention from everywhere and I didn't have the card draw / card advantage to keep going.
Overall, I felt like my opening hands often didn't have enough low cost non humans and my lands were awkward a few times. The big thing I noticed though is that I just for the love of god can't draw cards though lol. I probably need to buff my noncreature cheap creature count a little more and push harder on card draw especially some draw in the creatures potentially.

DECK CHANGES:
  • Esper SentinelPalace Jailer - My impression of Sentinel hasn't been high and while I didn't draw it in the games, I just have zero faith in it working out. Taxing opponents a single mana once a turn just if I am in a position to buff it up I probably don't need it. I am going to instead shift to trying out some of the monarch cards. I need more draw desperately and this deck feels like it should be able to attack and steal monarch back. Only one way to find out I guess.
  • Weathered WayfarerPalace Sentinels - pushing more on the monarch thing. I like that this one is a human but its kind of miserable outside of that. I still think its worth trying out. I did see wayfarer a few times and I wasn't impressed mostly because I just didn't have time to play with it being that I have things I need to do in my early turns in this deck.
  • Krenko, Tin Street KingpinHanged Executioner - Krenko is cool in that I do have ways to buff things in this deck but I otherwise wished he was just one of the other two goblin produers given how much slower he is at making the tokens to get started. The turn after I only get one attacker where as with the other two goblin producers I can attack with three the next turn. Krenko is also a bit worse against spot removal in that I pass my turn still with only one body from it where as the others I can potentially have split into multiple attackers already. I like that this new add gives me two bodies immediately and both are evasive.
  • Sensei's Divining TopCourt of Grace - I like the idea of having topdeck manipulation but its just not been relevant thus far. I need to do more drawing. If I am in a situation where I have Winota + attackers to trigger I am already doing fairly good and topdeck manipulation is probably winmore that I just can't afford to include. I like that Court of Grace also makes me tokens and either token is an evasive one that will help retake monarch as well as trigger Winota.
  • Scroll RackSelfless Savior - same issue as above with topdeck manipulation. Selfless Savior increases my cheap non human count and I think even later on it can help me against some interaction. I am not really sure how ideal it is but I like that it has a free sacrifice. I think otherwise that I would rather have protection than indestructible since protection tends to be better vs spot removal and indestructible vs sweepers but the ones that give protection are either humans or have a cost to activate / need to tap.
  • Enlightened TutorRagavan, Nimble Pilferer - I get that I can tutor for draw effects but I don't think I need enlightened here. The card disadvantage feels really bad and the time to cast the tutor and a 4ish cost card draw effect just takes enough time that I would rather increase my numbers than do some jumping through hoop card disadvantage stuffs. Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer - is a big gamble for me because well, he seems entirely front loaded in his value. If I draw him later he probably sucks but early on he seems sort of nuts. I guess in a way he is sort of like adding Mox Diamond to my deck in that it will be strong if I can find it early but kind of sucks later. Its something that was expensive to test out but I think I need to do the testing. If worst comes to worst I think he would make an interesting commander so I guess I am fine picking up a copy and seeing how he performs.
  • Generous GiftArchaeomancer's Map - I need more drawish effects and I need to play for longer games. I think that the map helps me early or late in that I need to keep hitting lands.
  • Ajani, Strength of the PrideReidane, God of the Worthy - Ajani is really cool but I wasn't consistently enough hitting his ult trigger which is why I was playing him. Reidane can stall some sweepers and fits the non human evasive list.
Watch List:
  • Speaker of the Heavens - I have been cutting back on some of my lifegain dependent payoffs. I still think that the triggers from this one are really good and something we want but I would say that it feels like its sort of a 1 in 3 kind of games where I gain the life and have a board to sustain it.
  • Angel of Glory's Rise - I keep drawing it but not drawing enough lands to be able to play it. I think its more of an issue that I keep not drawing enough cards so hopefully with the draw this gets a little more appealing.
  • Crested Sunmare - I haven't seen it yet but I have been having some issues having the life gain trigger things and the payoffs paired. There is also the issue that Norin entering can't trigger this one due to when the triggers are meaning that I am somewhat restricted to my own plays on my turn and the soul sisters that trigger on opponents creatures to trigger it.
Considerations:
  • Skyline Despot - I have been pushing Monarch and I think that there is some appealing parts to this guy in the whole he could make me more tokens thing.
  • Archon of Emeria - I keep going back and forth on the whole one spellcast a turn thing. The advantage of this guy is he also hates on nonbasic lands and is an evasive three drop non human creature.
  • Loyal Warhound - He can't ramp into Winota without someone T2 ramping who goes before me but there is still some appeal in a value added non human.
  • Bruna, the Fading Light - I like the appeal of a non human big stick that rezes one of my humans. I think as a recovery from Winota dying it seems appealing and she can rez other things too. I don't feel like I have a ton of recovery for if Norin dies but some of that is an issue of lack of draw too.
Overall right now I need to push more draw. Being somewhat of an aggro deck I am drawing a lot of removal attention right now and I am not sustaining as well as I want to so I am hoping the changes push me to be able to sustain further into the game. Adding more cheap drop non humans hopefully will help stabilize how often I have a curve to Winota gameplan.
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Chromaticus
Posts: 308
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Chromaticus » 2 years ago

Alms Collector? More expensive hate-cat, but he does draw cards.

Treasure Nabber probably needs to drag his butt in here.

I also kind of like the idea of Planar Chaos - more up my friends' ally than mine, but it just wrecks people if they go to wrath and fail the flip. Meanwhile if we've got any board we can add to it with Winota, Joiner of Forces.

Chromaticus
Posts: 308
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Chromaticus » 2 years ago

A double post? How rude!

Rummaging through my box for a couple last minute includes and came across one that I think is legitimately great:

Impulsive Pilferer - giving us three hasty Winota, Joiner of Forces triggers on his second go around is awesome - and if people don't want to enable that, he has semi-evasion on his front half.

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