THE Definitive Kaalia of the Vast

[NZB2323]

3drinks, Since interaction is super important in cEDH, why aren't these cards in your list?

• Liliana's Triumph
• Kaya's Guile
• Anguished Unmaking
• Flawless Maneuver
• Deflecting Swat
• Deadly Rollick

[3drinks]

3drinks, Since interaction is super important in cEDH, why aren't these cards in your list?

• Liliana's Triumph
• Kaya's Guile
• Anguished Unmaking
• Flawless Maneuver
• Deflecting Swat
• Deadly Rollick

Because I don't play cDH.

[3drinks]

Oh. Right. I should really add Mishra's Workshop to play my stax/prison cards on t1.

Because everybody loves playing around t1 3sphere......

[benjameenbear]

In regards to playing your current list @3drinks, no I have not actually played it. My observations and opinions on mana rocks and the overarching strategy of Kaalia are based strictly on my own observation and game experience. Candidly, I think the term "mental magic" can be taken a bit condescendingly but the point you imply is fair; it's hard for me to critique your decklist without playing it myself.

My expansive posts on your changes do stem from a fairly solid understanding of the basic tenets of EDH and Commander, which I hope I've demonstrated to lend credibility to my arguments/observations.

For me, a Kaalia lockdown (in context of Stax/Resource denial) is often expected in my small playgorup when Kaalia is playing. I haven't seen the full lock achieved (Possibility Storm + Drannith Magistrate) but I look forward to when Kaalia can play a legit solitaire game.

In regards to your list, I've personally experienced Defense Grid as a liability, actually. In the case where I can't successfully create an oppressive board state, I usually have found that the Grid opens up opportunities for the Combo player following my turn to Combo off unimpeded. The taxing is excellent during my own turn but it constrains the game significantly in completely removing the burden of interaction from Blue players because they can't. Kaalia does well, to a certain degree, because she isn't playing Blue and everyone knows it; the options and expectations to stopping a game-win on the Stack don't really include Kaalia and so she's free (in comparison) from the pressure of holding up mana. This is another subject I could spend lots of words writing about, but I'll refrain.

I also like your removal count and tutor count as is. It's pretty decent and should statistically be available for you when it matters. I too find myself preferrin spot removal to hard board wipes, so I won't decry the "lower" count in that regard.

Baneslayer Angel is a questionable include because it doesn't do anything by itself and is simply a beater that you can play on curve in case Kaalia is dead. I would personally recommend including some sort of Card Advantage Angel/Demon/Dragon in its place. And Rimescale Dragon with the snow-land suite could be potentially VERY interesting from a board control perspective. I'm curious as to how it plays out for you in games. Otherwise, I could see it being low-impact and mana-intensive relative to its value to a game. Compared to Vilis? I vote Vilis all the way, but that's totally your decision.

I really like the idea of OG Ob Nixilis in the deck as another outlet and to take advantage of the fetch-land suite in your deck and Crucible. I built a mono-Black EDH deck with Ob Nixilis at the helm based solely on that interaction and it's a pretty devastating way to pressure life totals. I'm a fan and think you could definitely run him instead of Baneslayer.

[benjameenbear]

3drinks, Since interaction is super important in cEDH, why aren't these cards in your list?

• Liliana's Triumph
• Kaya's Guile
• Anguished Unmaking
• Flawless Maneuver
• Deflecting Swat
• Deadly Rollick

Totally forgot that Kaya's Guile is a card. That is some serious utility in a spell.

My own personal Kaalia list, which is firmly in the cEDH realm, has been considering Deflecting Swat and Deadly Rollick, I just haven't gotten around to testing them out. My wife isn't a fan because Kaalia is not often in play or, if she is, those Commander-discounted spells are not as relevant because Kaalia is dominating.

[3drinks]

You're not wrong in that D-Grid is a very double-edged sword, and typically rather dubious with REBs as a primary form of interaction. For the same reasons as disliking City of Solitude, I've also found myself hesitant to want to cast it. it is perhaps a relic of an older time and in today's age where every deck has a combo line of play it may be true that it is pertinent to allowing another opponent to combo off uninhibited. And of the two, it's true that Mana Web does a similar role and isn't so dangerous to our fate as D-Grid can be. There's not a large number of artifacts that create a similar effect, so perhaps it's a "suck it up and play it" card, or it's past it's expiration and should be culled from the list. I'm not against it's retirement from the primer. Perhaps it's a slot that could belong to Vilis, Broker of Blood all-in-all.

It's likely Baneslayer is also a holdout from a past life. Instinctively, it doesn't really do anything outside of be castable. And a simple switchout for Ob Nix would make the most sense, if we're going to replace her.

Similarly, perhaps the REBs/Pyros are also relics of a past age and Deflecting Swat/Flawless Maneuver are better and more flexible at the job. I like that they don't require being in a U meta in order to shine. I find Deadly Rollick a bit vanilla - certainly a free kill spell is of a certain degree of usefulness, though I'm not as overtly excited of it as I am the rest. However, perhaps it has a place over Cut // Ribbons as I do have other combo outlets and don't need that one persay. Not really for cDH reasons, but it is a cheaper removal at a faster speed than it's predecessour is. Hmm, these all sound like reasonable design choices.

I'm not particularly wowed by Kaya's Guile - three mana is a lot for an edict and a Rakdos Charm, which are the suspected modes I'd use the most, and although putting them together in that three mana package is enticing, I think it's fairly niche all-in-all. I suspect it's not a bad idea to pick up the card to have it lying around, but most of the time I suspect I'd prefer to sleeve up Kolaghan's Command over it in a given game. Liliana's Triumph is interesting @ two cmc, although getting blocked by a token effect makes me less of a fan of edicts in general. It's a strict better Diabolic Edict if you're still running that, though.

[benjameenbear]

I think the proposed changes look and feel good overall. I usually keep one of the Blast effects in lists since there's usually a Blue deck at the table whenever Kaalia decides to play.

Cut // Ribbons is a card I think I actually really enjoy because of its functionality. I could see it getting cut, because it's been removed from my own list, but there have been times where I miss having a late-game sink.

With the rise of Underworld Breach in cEDH lists, I think Kaya's Guile grows a little bit more in merit. It's fairly expensive for what it does but forcing an Edict and 'yard purge for each opponent is a ton of value for 3 CMC. Kolaghan's Command is another great modal spell to consider too. Man, I forget about all these Modern utility spells that are actually really solid.

[3drinks]

Yeah, I forgot about Breach tbh. Like another way to rebuy an aura to reanimate something, but I don't believe this deck is entirely built for Breach anyway. I'm pretty sawft to 'Yards which makes me uncomfortably nervous, and I'd like some way to interact with a Breach outside of just 'Yard napalm (don't think we get anything though). I definitely favour Rakdos Charm over Kaya's Guile for the purpose. I'd prefer Scavenger Grounds over both, but it's not worth compromising Tsabo's Web for. I suppose Leyline of the Void is a card that exists...sometimes that's a card that does relevant things

This list is missing Reanimate but I'm not sure I really miss it, speaking earnestly. Like, it never occurred to me even once that it "had to" go in the deck. That feels weird, but if the deck doesn't care about it, it doesn't need it.

I don't miss having a late game sink myself. But if I did, I 'd favour Skeletal Scrying again. Such an under-appreciated draw spell. Honourary mention to Damnable Pact. And, I guess Peer into the Abyss if we're talking sorcery speed draw as mana sinks.

[mcmurphy82]

Updated Homebrew Kaalia

So I read all the feedback and traded for some cards. Now this is my new decklist.

The ones listed as sideboard, are cards I will get soon and auto-include. Maybeboard are cards I don't know if I have room for.

Since I got so good feedback on the original decklist, I was hoping on some on this new version...Are there obvious holes i need to fill? Is the manabase OK?

[3drinks]

@mcmurphy82

You already know what I'm gonna say about some things, haha.

If you're not running tsabo's web, there's no reason to not play the triome and canyon sloughs. I'd go with the web, obviously, but you have a decision to make.

If you're gonna keep new Kaalia in place, I'd suggest adding Angel of Condemnation to the mix. Gadrak doesn't have any synergy here, so that seems like the easy replacement.

Snapdax is interesting, though also without a lot of synergy. Seems interesting to mutate onto your big guns but may be win more. I'll need to study the rulings on mutate more as it's a complicated mechanic, it could be a decent pump and removal spell. I'm not sold on it completely though and it's easier to not wrap my head around this wonky mechanic.

Well I'm off break, so I'll have to look at more latre.

[benjameenbear]

@mcmurphy82
Those are some solid changes, imo. There are a few weaker Kaalia targets in your list that you could replace as you upgrade your decklist over time, but I think you have a really solid budget list to start off with.

I really like your suite of Instants and Artifacts. Once you add in your sideboard cards, I think your artifact mana suite will be really quite solid, so I don't think you need to invest any more money/trades there.

The only place I can see being a problem for you is your Card Advantage/Card Draw suite. You could add in more tutors or Card Advantage Kaalia targets like Demonlord Belzenlok, Doom Whisperer, Razaketh, the Foulblooded, and Harvester of Souls but a few of those cards are pretty expensive, from either a money or trade fodder side. I'll agree with 3drinks that Gadrak is the weakest of your targets, so you could add in the Harvester in its place so that you can keep the cards flowing.

No Rest for the Wicked isn't the best card, since it's quite reactive in nature, but it's a nice recovery option. You could replace it with another Reanimation effect like Zombify or Animate Dead, but again that's really a preference call for you.

You might be able to find Dragonskull Summit available for trades. It's been reprinted a bunch of times and should be fairly accessible. Your last on-color Temple should be a fairly easy acquisition as well and will help smooth out your mana base.

Otherwise, I would recommend tutoring for Vilis as a priority. He's one of the most powerful cards in your list and Reanimating him or dropping him into play with Kaalia with mana available will help you.

I think you have a great starting list for Kaalia and a great place to upgrade from. Between 3drinks and myself, you have two Primers that cover a range of options and give you a solid list of cards to choose from when doing upgrades or trades!

[RowanKeltizar]

Vilis, Broker of Blood seems like a solid draw/removal engine. I wonder if his mana cost is too steep for Zenith Seeker though. I find that 8cmc is kind of a hard ceiling but there are times where I can cheat things into play or reduce their cost enough. His power level seems to warrant inclusion, especially since I'm having trouble finding enough draw engines.

Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge doesn't make much sense for OG Kaalia, but I was considering it for Zenith Seeker. I find that having as many A.D.D. as possible in the list is good thing for her triggers. It really hurts to completely wiff on a trigger. If I can find a respectable effect on an A.D.D. body I will usually go for that instead.

"At the beginning of your end step, create a Treasure token for each nontoken creature that died this turn."

I think this is being a bit underestimated. I can see some nice payoffs for things like Balefire Dragon or any sorcery based removal spell. Then you you have instants or activated abilities (like Vilis for example) you can take immediate advantange of it.

He's cheap enough that I wouldn't mind picking up a copy and seeing how he performs in place of one of my weaker mana rocks.

[3drinks]

Vilis, Broker of Blood seems like a solid draw/removal engine. I wonder if his mana cost is too steep for Zenith Seeker though. I find that 8cmc is kind of a hard ceiling but there are times where I can cheat things into play or reduce their cost enough. His power level seems to warrant inclusion, especially since I'm having trouble finding enough draw engines.

Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge doesn't make much sense for OG Kaalia, but I was considering it for Zenith Seeker. I find that having as many A.D.D. as possible in the list is good thing for her triggers. It really hurts to completely wiff on a trigger. If I can find a respectable effect on an A.D.D. body I will usually go for that instead.

"At the beginning of your end step, create a Treasure token for each nontoken creature that died this turn."

I think this is being a bit underestimated. I can see some nice payoffs for things like Balefire Dragon or any sorcery based removal spell. Then you you have instants or activated abilities (like Vilis for example) you can take immediate advantange of it.

He's cheap enough that I wouldn't mind picking up a copy and seeing how he performs in place of one of my weaker mana rocks.

I really don't think you want Vilis there. You're going to curse every time that big dumb eight mana card sits in your hand and does nothing. Hard pass, in that deck.

I really need to get around to developing Zenith Seeker with all the sweet cycling goodies so I can add her portion to the main post and get you involved more in the discussion as a whole.

To help not whiff so often, I trust you're using my secret Mortuary tech, right? Since Kaalia can clear the top six on an ETB, it lowers the chances of getting locked in your own top deck. It can also help immensely to use Scroll Rack to put some creatures back for three fresh cards, and then go retrigger her etb to re-draw the creatures you just put back. I know that sounds real tricky, but it's a super stealth play. Learned it from watching countless Caw Blade matches years ago haha. Knew that'd come in for something useful...

Y'know, it occurs to me. Zenith Seeker in the way I built her could be a sweet secret Approach of the Second Sun deck.....hmm, I think I just found my new goal

[3drinks]

Right, I actually came in here for a whole other purpose, but completely missed the boat the first time. Ahem.

@mcmurphy82

I see the changes and it's a good place to be. I see a lot of things I'm not comfortable with, things that are slow, or clunky, or not entirely synergistic, things I'd recommend should be the next to be updated for sure. Obviously I can't touch on every card, but there's enough things here I can hopefully get you pointed in the right direction on. I'll leave the expensive suggestions out, since they're well known and you likely are aware of the Balefire Dragons of the world anyway.

So, I get that Redkroma looks great. And I played her at first too. But there's a thing here, that she's eight mana and once she's on the board, her protections don't matter so much since WU typically has an easier time wiping things out anyway, rather than targeting just the one creature. The other is it's uncounterability is it's greatest feature, but Kaalia already gets around that without even casting it, making her feel even less impressive than she seems. Instead, if you want to hurt control players, can I recommend Sire of Insanity instead? This card is sub $1 and will utterly wreck anyone that needs cards in hand. Control decks just fold if they can't answer it immediately.

Rather than Archfiend of Depravity, I'd suggest Overseer of the Damned instead so you can choose what you destroy, rather than let them choose what they sacrifice. I don't think that card is more than $3.

Angelic Arbiter is one of those cards that looks great on paper but in practice it isn't really accomplishing what you want it to do. Most players would prefer casting spells than going to combat so the decision to give up what they don't care about anyway, to do what they care about...is suspect, y'know what I mean? I'd recommend Chancellor of the Annex in it's place, because if you reveal it t0 it feels incredible and once it's on board making opponent's spells +1 cmc is so backbreaking.

I know Rakdos, Lord of Riots looks super fun and explosive, but keep in mind you still have to pay the coloured costs. And we're in three colour, so odds are these will cost us minimum two mana anyway. What's more is that how many threats do you expect to have in hand when this comes down? How many do you want to pay for, when Kaalia does it for free? Rakdos and his paincast mechanic works a bit at odds with Kaalia, I'd save him for his own deck. In it's stead could be a lot of things; I always liked Butcher of the Horde because it was cheap on it's own, and offered a free sacrifice outlet. I also like Bloodgift Demon and Demonlord Belzenlok to help us draw cards.

Speaking of drawing cards, I don't see a Night's Whisper anywhere, and I think that's a mistake. It's such an efficient little card and the opportunity cost is low. Can't imagine a reason you wouldn't run this. I really don't think you want Dragon Mage either, we can do better even if it's just a simple Ambition's Cost or Promise of Power. Greed is pretty reasonable too, all things considered - especially if you get the Chronicles art with the crazed fat guy hiding behind a stack of coins he's hoarding haha.

I think No Rest for the Wicked is bad, and you'd do better with a Phyrexian Reclamation or Haunted Crossroads for the same effect honestly. Blood for Bones looks like a poor imitation of Victimize, so that's a pretty easy swap to me. I really don't like Athreos, Shroud-Veiled at all, it's very slow and telegraphed. I think just a cheaper reanimation effect would be stronger.

Rootborn Defenses is another copy of Make a Stand, if you were interested. And ofc there's always Boros Charm.

You could probably safely upgrade Disenchant to Forsake the Worldly. And Mortify could surely become an Orim's Thunder easily enough. Terminate looks to be missing completely - and as I don't see an Earnest Fellowship, I can only presume that's a mistake. Swords to Plowshares? That Murderous Rider // Swift End in the SB could easily take the Dreadbore slot.

Deathpact Angel is pretty bleh. There's a lot of better options, perhaps the economically efficient Demon of Wailing Agonies? Great launch off Kaalia.

Crystal Slipper could easily be Swiftfoot Boots for the same mana cost and investment, and hexproof obviously is superiour to +1/+0. Don't think those boots are more than $3. If you can swing one, I've always had a sawft spot for Sunforger. Might need a few more cheap removals to justify it though. If you do, then Mistveil Plains is a great choice to pick up.

Reya Dawnbringer isn't...it's not that she's poor, because unchecked that's the kind of ability that can take over a game. She's slow, though. You're getting half of a Sheoldred, Whispering One trigger here (the good half though) so I can't in good faith say this is a cut for now. But latre on you'll see what I mean and she'll find her way out.

I see no Lord of the Void, that might be a bit of an obscure card that hasn't ever been reprinted though? I know I have a lot of fun with that guy. Rapacious Dragon seems like an easy cut for him, given I see that dragon is just a place holder.

Whew. I hope I wasn't too overbearing here.

[RowanKeltizar]

Mortuary - the fact that this isn't a "may" means it can't make the list. I really like the effect and could see a non-reanimator deck really getting some sweet value from this, but I don't think it quite fits in my list because it has anti-synergy with the reanimator strategy. I actually want to fill up my yard as much as possible for a Living Death or something. This also doesn't play all that well with Sneak Attack as I actually want the creatures to end up in my graveyard as well for things like Phyrexian Reclamation.

As an aside, Mortuary would be really fantastic in a deck running things like Lurking Predators or Descendants' Path. That would be a fun thing - a Golgari deck that wasn't heavy on reanimation and instead focused on cheating things from the top of your library.

Scroll Rack on the other hand probably should be included, especially now that I am going denser and denser with my creatures. I can't think of many other cards that do anything like this in these colors so yes, I think this makes the cut, although it is quite expensive.

Reinforcements looks interesting too. I like this because I get to choose what goes on top at the proper timing for Kaalia.

The beauty of Zenith Seeker though is you can build her a lot of ways. I really like the cycling archetype for her, especially with the new support tech that we got. Fluctuator, Abandoned Sarcophagus, and Unpredictable Cyclone are some of the more promising ones.

Rather than Archfiend of Depravity, I'd suggest Overseer of the Damned instead so you can choose what you destroy, rather than let them choose what they sacrifice. I don't think that card is more than $3.

Shadowborn Demon is also pretty good and costs 2 mana less. Will probably run it in Zenith Seeker as an efficient and useful ETB.

[mcmurphy82]

@3drinks @benjameenbear

Thanx again for awsome and very insightfull feedback.

As I have said before, I am a new EDh player, and this is my first deck. Most of the cards are from my small collection.

Started playing Magic again 24 years after I played in middle school. My playgroup consist of some of my friends from back then, who also rediscovered Magic after 20+years. (unfortunately most of us traded or sold our semi-expencive cards in the early 2000's for pennies) The only semi-valuble card I have left from that time is Mystical Tutor and Shallow Grave [/card]

As we are looking to test commander, the others will probably just buy pre-cons. Since I am the more eager player of us, I wanted to try to build a deck of my own. So that is the power-level of my play group.

I'm from Norway, and there is definitely many Magic players here, but the secundary marked is more limited here than in the US or other countries. Tax and the dollar rate, makes shopping on US online stores like cardcingdom etc rather expencive.

There are just so many thousands of cards released since the 90's, so it's very overwhelming to get a overview of what cards are availible
So this is why the deck is the way it is. And some of the obvious cards I'm missing is because I don't know them, or that I haven't found a trade or seller yet.

Again, I appreciate the IMO very thorough answers, and that you guys take your time to look at my deck and give me so much input. I will use all the knowledge and keep upgrading in the future.

[3drinks]

So I officially made some updates to the Primer this morning;

-1 Baneslayer Angel, Defense Grid, Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, Cut // Ribbons
+1 Ob Nixilis, the Fallen, Vilis, Broker of Blood, Deadly Rollick, Deflecting Swat, Flawless Maneuver

I also moved Magus of the Moon to a more appropriate place in the write-up as he somehow got misappropriated over into the "Safety First!" category.

[NoirCroix]

Have you given much thought to Leyline Tyrant from Zendikar Rising for either Kaalia deck? If so do you mind sharing your opinion?

Thanks in advance.

[3drinks]

Whoops, I missed this, sorry about that.

Have you given much thought to Leyline Tyrant from Zendikar Rising for either Kaalia deck? If so do you mind sharing your opinion?

Thanks in advance.

So, it's not like this is gonna be a bad choice. Reasonable body you can hard cast and functions as a time bomb when removed. Now, when you know Kaalia is so high profile, you have to maximize your triggers. I can't imagine tutouring this over other choices, nor actively wanting this over all the huge iMPACT threats we already have - competition is just so stiff to earn a slot in the deck.

Now, I think it's much better in zenith Kaalia where you do hard cast your threats, because now one of this new dragon's strengths is being utilized.

[NoirCroix]

Thanks for the reply.

I share the same opinion. I've been looking at it mostly for the "ramp" it provides. I think it's definitely better in Zenith Kaalia. It is weaker in a faster and more competitive meta, that being said I might try it out anyways and see.

Thanks again.

[3drinks]

I plan to grab one myself because Kari Zev would like it's own Kruphix heh. Volatile as it may be.

[KurokaKisho]

Hey 3Drinks!
It's kind of nostalgic for me rediscovering your primer. Found it back in 2013 on mtgsalvation. We even talked on skype :D good times!
My deck has evolved since then (Here is the list http://deck.tk/47HH6k1y ). I know I will do some changes here and there, like Defense Grid and Reverberate. But trying to change things is a bit hard since this will be an all-Foil EDH deck.
It is geared towards multiplayer and there are a few flavor-choices (Like Zenith Kaalia, the full cycle of Talisman etc.) But what do y'all think?
I think I will take out Defense Grid and Reverberate for the white and red Free Spells from Commander 2020. Maybe take out Path to Exile for Snuff Out? I am on the fence about Hoard-Smelter Dragon and Kothoped will get out once Terror of the Peak drops in price.

[3drinks]

Oh hai guys. Finally we have our own planeswalker for those of us as insane as me with the white border Kaalia.

SPOILER

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[3drinks]

Please enjoy our latest video. It's the inaugural episode of a podcast-styled series called, Deep Discussions: Kaalia of the Vast. I join up with The Tryhards to do a Kaalia focus discussion. This first episode is on the common pitfalls experienced by new players to the commander, with an aim for a weekly release. Enjoy!

[3drinks]

I finally got to including Kaalia, Zenith Seeker into the primer. Took me long enough, but it's at an absolute basic point for investing in and play testing, with room for actual deckbuilding and not hypothetical or theorized brewing.