THE Definitive Kaalia of the Vast

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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

I just had a breakthrough with this deck........

Fantabulous theory.

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JGMW
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Post by JGMW » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
I just had a breakthrough with this deck........

Fantabulous theory.
Fantastic! When can we expect to hear more? I'm a long time lurker of your mtgsalvation primer and I just wanted to thank you for the work you've put into Kaalia, it has really been helpful over the years.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

So, as you know, I've never brewed for cDH. This is quite honestly my first attempt. I think I've captured the philosophies well enough, however.
cDH Kaalia

Commander (1)

Approximate Total Cost:

Deckstats: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kaalia-of-the-vast-cdh/

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Post by Dracaryx » 4 years ago

Hi Dragon2559 from MTGSalvation. It's great to see you brewing with cEDH! Does this mean you are playing more multiplayer these days or more of a thought experiment?

The list is interesting and seems like a fresh take on Razakats combo. I think what jumps out to me most is the high number of lands (38). In my experience combo decks aiming for speed (as this one seems to be) tend to run less lands and more one-shot mana sources like Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, etc. What are your thoughts on this?

I might need some explanation of how Gerrard/Second Sunrise lines work. Since you are not running Entomb, what is your win line with Razakats loop going and 0 mana? I am most familiar with 1 fast mana → Dark RitualEntomb (WGD)-> Animate Dead (WGD)-> loop → X-spell.

For targets, I'm surprised you aren't running Doom Whisperer and Vilis, Broker of Blood. Demonlord Belzenlok seems underwhelming with such a low average CMC, how has your experience with him been?

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Right, I play a lot of lands and this is a sticking point between the server and I. I firmly believe you can't play mox diamond with less than 36 lands, and crunching the numbers on chrome mox reveals 14 artifacts + 38 lands = 52% of the deck is not imprintable. That percent realistically is higher as you can't pitch combo cards to it.

So, right, I whiffed on some targets. Belzenlok exists to draw through the WGD loop, though I don't particularly care outside that. That's probably a cut. I don't think I have any support for Villis, that likely is another build? Derp I forgot entomb, that's a mistake.

Gerrard: I'm taking the build in an Eggs direction. The idea is when you sac guys to Raza, you finish the iteration with Gerrard and then shallow grave him before he exiles to bring your guys back. Second Sunrise does the same thing but also acts as an instant speed ramp if you can hold back fetchlands until you actually need them.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

So I did a little thing in a similar vein to that of the white border Kaalia. I theorized the deck in a pre-modern time and built from there. There's some more info about the thought process in the link that follows. Hope everyone finds it as interesting as I did putting it together.

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kaalia- ... re-modern/

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RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
WBRKaalia HQ

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

Alright guys, so I updated this main list for 2020, including finally adapting it for multiplayer since no one plays traditional commander 1v1 anymore, that's a busted ass format. I still can't figure out how to use the "anchor" tags on this site for the life of me, so just, like, from the table of contents do a crtl + F to jump to where you want.

Yes, the main deck looks very different. No, it's surely not going to garner you any friends.............. #Vintage3drinks

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Post by NZB2323 » 3 years ago

I built my wife a Kaalia of the Vast deck. It's an angel tribal deck, but it's actually a boardwipe tribal deck with Avacyn, Angel of Hope as the secret commander. We have been playing a lot of 1v1 during COVID, but the deck is meant for multiplayer, where resolving a board wipe with Avacyn on the battlefield can result in a victory. Other ways the deck can win is through infinite combats with Aurelia, the Warleader and Helm of the Host or melding into a Brisela, Voice of Nightmares. The deck runs a lot of tutors in order to get Avacyn, find the other win cons, or just find answers. The other thing is my wife only wanted females in this deck, so there are no creatures who are male. This is the list:
Kaalia of the female angels

Commander 1

Approximate Total Cost:

Current Decks
rg Morophon, the infinite Kavu Eowyn, human tribal Legolas, voltron control Wb Tymna/Ravos cleric tribal Neheb, Chicago Bulls tribal Ug Edric pauper

Retired Decks
Edgar Markov Kaalia, angel board wipes Ghen, prison Captain Sisay Ub Nymris, draw go Sarulf, voltron control Niv-Mizzet, combo Winota Sidisi, Zombie Tribal

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

a wild Kaalia appears on the newest Game Knights. Let's see how Jimmy handles our girl!


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WRKellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
WBRKaalia HQ

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

Wow, the whole game determined by a Cy Rift. So original 🙄

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Commander
WRKellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
WBRKaalia HQ

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Post by mcmurphy82 » 3 years ago

The worst Kaalia deck ever

Hello. I am completely new to EDH. I have played Arena and a little bit of kitchentable traditional magic the last two years. I picked up magic again, some 20 years after i played in middle school.

I have some random old cards from the 90's, but most i sold way back. So now my collection is mostly new cards from the last two years. I got Kaalia in a double masters pack, and started looking at what I could do with her.

The list is just a random collection of cards i currently have that in some form may or may not fit. I know it's barely a start and most of the cards will eventually be changed, but if someboy could help me with my first upgrades, I would be thankful.

My budget i $100, and this is for casual playing only.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

mcmurphy82 wrote:
3 years ago
The worst Kaalia deck ever

Hello. I am completely new to EDH. I have played Arena and a little bit of kitchentable traditional magic the last two years. I picked up magic again, some 20 years after i played in middle school.

I have some random old cards from the 90's, but most i sold way back. So now my collection is mostly new cards from the last two years. I got Kaalia in a double masters pack, and started looking at what I could do with her.

The list is just a random collection of cards i currently have that in some form may or may not fit. I know it's barely a start and most of the cards will eventually be changed, but if someboy could help me with my first upgrades, I would be thankful.

My budget i $100, and this is for casual playing only.
FWIW, it's certainly not the worst starter I've seen. It's a bit all over the place, and lacking focus. But it's functioning.

We all start somewhere. I suggest hitting the table of contents link for the baseline Kaalia at the front of this Primer and starting there. Tutours and ABU duals aside, you can pick up the rest for virtually pennies on the dollar. That will get you into the general feel and strategy of the deck and then you can build up from there. I also had the commons/uncommons only brew of Kaalia, but I discontinued it since it was near $450 and still required general upkeeping in addition to the primary list so I scrapped it and went with the white border brew. Bear in mind this hasn't been updated in about a year, but nevertheless there's probably some things you can take from it anyway. https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kaalia- ... line-list/

When you can build more onto it, your options are vast. First investment should be your tutours and mana though, because that's the grease that makes the deck work. Any deck work, really. Hope this helps you. Is there anything else I can help with?

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WRKellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

mcmurphy82 wrote:
3 years ago
The worst Kaalia deck ever

Hello. I am completely new to EDH. I have played Arena and a little bit of kitchentable traditional magic the last two years. I picked up magic again, some 20 years after i played in middle school.

I have some random old cards from the 90's, but most i sold way back. So now my collection is mostly new cards from the last two years. I got Kaalia in a double masters pack, and started looking at what I could do with her.

The list is just a random collection of cards i currently have that in some form may or may not fit. I know it's barely a start and most of the cards will eventually be changed, but if someboy could help me with my first upgrades, I would be thankful.

My budget i $100, and this is for casual playing only.
Welcome to EDH @mcmurphy82, the single greatest format of MTG ever (yes, I'll fight anyone on that statement!)!

Looking over your list, I think you've got decent bones for a budget Kaalia list. I'll try to be as comprehensive as possible so that you have a clear direction.

First, know that 3drinks has been playing Kaalia for nearly a decade at this point. His advice and insights are legit and should be strongly considered. His list, which I found back in 2010 (I think?) was the basis for my own Kaalia list (there's a Primer link in my signature you can check out if you'd like). He's the OG liaison to Kaalia.

The basic things to understand about EDH in comparison to MTG Arena or 60 card formats is that card quality, card draw/advantage, and curve matter much more in this format than you'd think. You want to be able to play your most important spell on curve as frequently as possible.

The most important spell in the deck is arguably Kaalia. That means I would look to increase the density of all of my 2 drop rocks that add colored mana so that I can cast Kaalia on time as consistently as possible. In looking at your list, I count only 4 mana rocks that you can cast on T2 that will enable you to guarantee a T3 Kaalia so you can start swinging ASAP. The ones I'd recommend adding to your list are: Boros Signet, Talisman of Indulgence, Mind Stone, and Arcane Signet. A few of those are $5 cards, but I think that they are super integral to the deck and worth the investment. Also, if you play with your playgroup frequently enough I'm confident that you'll be able to ask for a copy of a Sol Ring, since that's notably missing from your list and is the poster child for this format. It's also been reprinted enough times that you can get a copy of your own for about $5 as well, making the total investment in your mana base around $20ish dollars. Fixing your mana rocks will help improve the consistency of your deck and help ensure that you can cast your spells on time and follow a powerful curve.

Next, I recommend looking at the number of sources in your deck that have the text "draw [x] card(s)." This format, when played casually, is awesome for its ability to create memorable game state and plays. And this can only happen if you have enough cards in your hand to do so. Vilis, Broker of Blood is the best target in your deck hands down for this but Dragon Mage is also pretty sweet. Some suggestions that are fairly cheap to add to your deck that will help improve your consistency while keeping your Angel/Demon/Dragon count on the higher end for maximum impact are: Bloodgift Demon, Kothophed, Soul Hoarder, Rune-Scarred Demon, Harvester of Souls, Painful Truths, Morbid Curiosity, Demonlord Belzenlok, Liliana's Contract, Read the Bones, Ambition's Cost, Ob Nixilis Reignited, and Castle Locthwain. A lot of those cards should be under $3 at this point, so you can increase the density of your draw without losing too much function in your deck.

I highly recommend including Dragon Tempest in your deck. It's been reprinted a number of times and is an excellent Haste outlet in addition to your Crystal Slippers. The idea of Kaalia wearing dainty slippers while destroying people is a pretty funny image in my mind haha. The Tempest also allows your Dragons to ping smaller creatures to get them out of the way or stack damage so that you can make favorable blocks.

So, at this point, my recommended acquisition list looks like this:
That should put you around $35-$40 in total acquisitions and you might be able to make trades or ask your friends if they have extra copies of these cards that they can give you so you can keep the cost of the deck low.

Removal of opponent's key cards that accelerate their board states or hinder your own is another obstacle that you need to be mindful of. Thankfully, there are a lot of Angels/Demons/Dragons that are budget that act as removal effects for your deck while being powerful cards on their own. You're already playing Angel of Despair, Goremand, and Rakdos the Defiler, Ruinous Ultimatum, Mythos of Snapdax, Mortify, Dreadbore,
Despark, and Generous Gift and I definitely recommend that you keep those ones in your list. Some other cards you could play are: Mordant Dragon, Demon of Loathing, Angel of Sanctions, Steel Hellkite, ]Bogardan Hellkite, Overseer of the Damned, Angel of Serenity, Archfiend of Depravity, Crackling Doom, Wear // Tear, Shatter the Sky, Tragic Arrogance, Banishing Light, Cast Out, and Ob Nixilis Reignited. There are even more budget options that you could include so this is just a small sampling so that you have decent density of effects available to you.

I also like including Reanimator effects in Kaalia as a way to get more value and Card Advantage. You're already running [cad]Shallow Grave[/card], Debtors' Knell, Athreos, Shroud-Veiled, Kaya's Ghostform, and No Rest for the Wicked. And those are decent effects. You could also consider Karmic Guide, Animate Dead, Bond of Revival, Defy Death, Beacon of Unrest, and Unburial Rites. Again, these are all fairly budget options to consider.

Containment Priest is a great card but directly negates Kaalia's ability. Is there a reason it's in your list?

So, this gives you a solid suite of removal, mana ramp, card draw. The rest of the deck you can customize to your own tastes in my opinion, perhaps leaning into lifegain effects so that you can recoup life you lose over the course of the game and stay relevant. A sample list, based HEAVILY on what you already have and including some of the suggestions here, could look like this:

Budget Kaalia List

Commander

Approximate Total Cost:


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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

I'm not sure if you've seen the new take on the primer @benjameenbear, but I'm actually moving away from mana rocks, actually, though admittedly I'm transforming into a null rod deck which may not be what our new player is doing. Might be something to keep in mind for suggestions fielded.

I'd second your other calls with Verge Rangers, which it occurs to me is missing from my list and should be added. This card is fantastic and not incredibly expensive to pick up.

edit: add the aforementioned verge rangers over skeletal scrying. That was an easy fix.

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Oh, I hadn't seen the updates on your Primer. Time to read and digest where your headspace is going.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

benjameenbear wrote:
3 years ago
Oh, I hadn't seen the updates on your Primer. Time to read and digest where your headspace is going.
I think there is a fascinating discussion from that, and I look forward to engaging with it.

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WBRKaalia HQ

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Post by mcmurphy82 » 3 years ago

@3drinks and @benjameenbear Thanx for excellent info and insight to this commander and what I can do to upgrade. The ways to upgrade are many, and I'm looking forward to gradually making it better.

I found some more cards that I have in my collection:

Dark Ritual
Murderous Rider // Swift End
Chromatic Orrery
Rule of Law

My question is if Chromantic Orrery is to slow, or if I should include it?

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

Chromatic Orrery is bad. Hard pass. Save it for the welder decks tbh.

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WRKellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
WBRKaalia HQ

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

I agree with 3drinks @mcmurphy82. Chromatic Orrery is a cool card, but has no place in this deck. It's a 7 CMC artifact that has no synergy with Kaalia.

Ok, I've digested the changes to your Primer @3drinks and I must say that it's a change of pace for sure. So, I'll try and address the changes in philosophy as I see it and explore why you went there.

First, and probably the most notable, is the change of philosophy regarding mana rocks. For me, this is a huge departure from standard Kaalia lists and one that I strongly disagree with personally. My primary reason for disagreement is because of how it affects the core strategy of the deck and seems to be a SEVERE handicap when playing against even baseline EDH decks.

In EDH, the name of the game is acceleration and resource accrual. To demonstrate this point, maybe a little esoterically: cEDH lists are cEDH caliber because of how quickly they can transition and pivot into the various stages of the game. This is in large part due to the efficiency of those decks in terms of mana accelerants and individual card power. They're playing the Mana Crypts, the Mox Opals, Sol Ring, etc. And because they have these mana sources that are technically spells (allowing them to play multiple additional mana sources per turn) they can have 4-5 mana available to them by T2 or T3. Whereas your updated list under no circumstances can have more than 2/3 mana available by turns 2/3. Having more mana allows you to transition faster into the mid/late game section of your deck's strategy because those parts of your strategy require more mana available to cast the spells you want to cast. A well-constructed cEDH list has, at the minimum from what I've seen, 6+ sources of additional mana outside of lands that cost 1 CMC or less. This is huge because it allows its pilot to create a mana advantage over OR catch up to the manage advantage of his/her other cEDH opponents. And what this allows these players to do is to deploy their Card Advantage or Combo pieces faster and in larger volume relative to their opponents. And when you're drawing more cards, deploying more mana advantage, and enabling more spells per turn you have a greater advantage in winning the game. As Garfield no doubt intended it, mana is life and having enough sources of it outside of your mana base is crucial to being able to get an advantage over your opponents. So, if a cEDH as a format is compelled to play Vintage level mana rocks to outmaneuver their opponents and create an imbalance of resources in their favor, I think this same line of thought is true for EDH decks that fall out of the cEDH spectrum. Playing the Signets, the Cultivate effects, etc. is important to getting consistency from your deck and advancing your deck's strategy.

So your removal of pretty much ALL mana sources from your deck is troubling to me. While the inclusion of Null Rod and Stony Silence and other Stax pieces is great for negating the mana advantage your opponents have over you I think that those cards by themselves do not warrant the removal of such an important component of an EDH deck. In fact, mana rocks would help you get to these effects sooner so that you can negate that advantage sooner and limit the window that your opponents capitalize from having a superior amount of mana to you by virtue of playing their own mana rocks or mana advantage effects.

You justify this removal of mana rocks by saying that the state of the format has changed drastically in power level and powerful artifacts are now everywhere and shutting those cards down is a priority (I'm paraphrasing here). I respect this observation and generally agree with it and can see why removing "dead weight"/anti-synergy from your deck seems like the right thing to do. After all, you don't want to spend your land-mana to play an artifact that you cannot take advantage of because you have an active Stony Silence in play; it's literally useless.

One of the inherent powers of Kaalia is her ability to pressure opponents quickly with the right suite of mana rocks. If they don't have removal for a T3 Kaalia then they need to be ready for a signficant advantage of the Kaalia pilot over themselves. That's the beauty and inherent power of Kaalia; she almost doubles your mana advantage by Piper-ing in high-costed, massively powerful creatures for free and using your actual land and artifact mana sources be used to further develop your board state or strategy. I think that the removal of artifact mana from your list waters down this power and makes Kaalia a fair commander.

I say these things without malice, and I apologize if my tone comes off as being abrasive. I am happy to respectfully argue with you and hear your elucidation. But I simply think that this shift in philosophy is dangerous and puts a massive hindrance to the power of Kaalia lists.

Otherwise, the inclusion of the Stax pieces you've chosen makes a lot of sense to me. Trinisphere is a card I've being pondering myself because of how well it limits cEDH players. Blood Moon is always fun to resolve and I actually really like the idea of running Arcum's Astrolabe so that you can filter Blood Moon mana into actual colors. I've been looking for ways to increase card draw in my own list and this is a neat way to do it that synergizes with the color screw themes the deck can successfully deploy.

I think the omission of Vilis, Broker of Blood is also pretty odd. That card is ridiculously powerful for this format. Why aren't you playing it?

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

I'm going to chime in and say that a turn 2 or 3 Kaalia of the Vast with haste and/or protection is still very powerful and the only real way to do that in these colors is mana rocks.

While the artifact/mana hate-bear cards can be effective, what are your chances of drawing or tutoring into them early every game? Also, have you thought about how these effects will make the table target you even more? I don't think you have enough answers to deal with 3 players throwing all their hate at you. I think multiplayer commander really demands a kind of counter-intuitive mindset which kind of boils down to "don't become the primary threat until you have the resources to deal with it or win"

One of the reasons why my Niv-mizzet deck wins so much is that I literally don't have a board state. There are no tangible threats in play. I just keep drawing cards. I counter stuff that threatens to end the game, and eventually I just combo out and win on my own terms. It almost always works that way.

As an example, one of the players in my playgroup runs the Master of Cruelties combo in his Gyrus, Waker of Corpses deck. He might be able to take out one player, but what almost always happens is that he gets hated out by the other players at the table, OR he simply gets hated out before he can even set up the kill. It's a salty move and doesn't really do much for him overall. Killing one player doesn't win you the game and earns you the salt from the rest of the playgroup. IDK, just my experience.

Going more midrange with Kaalia in a multiplayer format, especially more competitively, was kind of my goal with Zenith Seeker. My playgroup however doesn't respond well to land destruction or stax, so I instead I tried to focus on value and synergy with some card draw and other forms of interaction and removal with a few combos thrown in.

I honestly tend to be in alignment with my playgroup when it comes to land destruction and stax. I don't think it really has a home in multiplayer. 1v1, sure, but why draw hate to yourself before the game even starts? Don't get me wrong, I tend to be more on the competitive side, but for that reason, I think those types of effects tend to backfire.
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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

@RowanKeltizar
I think you make a fair point that Stax, when the playgroup and players aren't expecting it or haven't played around with it, is not a very graceful or winning strategy. It will certainly draw negative attention to you as a player and hinder your chances of winning in most playgroups. To me, that means you're playing the wrong strategy relative to the playgroup.

I play and play against my wife's Kaalia deck frequently. I've piloted a Stax version of it since 2010 and it has done quite well when the playgroup is ready to play around it. I say that not to be condescending, and I apologize if it does come off that way, but more to highlight my experience as the basis for the rest of my post. In fact, Kaalia tends to thrive in a Combo/Control heavy meta. And the reason is because every other player is playing a more reactive Style, kind of like what you've hinted at for your Niv-Mizzet deck.

When you're playing against known Combo decks and Kaalia decides to play a Stax piece that slows or hinders down one of the other Combo decks at the table you are incentivized as a player at the table (whose combo ISN'T affected by said Stax piece) to help protect that Stax piece. After all, Kaalia is playing a piece that is helping you advance your own game-plan by hindering an opponent's.

But the thing I like the best about a Stax Kaalia list, and this is most often the case in my experience, is that she creates SO much pressure from two primary axes. The first and most known element is, of course, Kaalia herself. Casting a T2/T3 Kaalia is incredibly threatening, as you've indicated. Being able to throw down a Balefire Dragon, Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Razaketh, the Foulblooded, etc. tapped and attacking without the opportunity to Counter said spell is a big deal. Kaalia can completely run away with a game if she's protected or given enough time.

But when you add in such a disruptive and powerful strategy such as Stax and now there are multiple angles of pressure. Which Stax piece is coming down? Should you counter the Stax piece and leave yourself open to an opponent's combo or superior Card Advantage engine? There are a large number of decision trees present within any typical game and adding in a Stax strategy complicates those decision points in Kaalia's favor. Should I tutor for a Combo piece or a removal spell for the Stax piece that's totally stopping my gameplan or massively hindering my mana sources? By removing Kaalia, will someone else answer the Stax piece that's already in play?

There have been games where the whole table gangs up on the Kaalia player and then they lose to the person who had been the most intelligent in HOW they managed their resources in ganging up on the table. This has happened so many times that our playgroup is now more wary of the people who seem to be holding back and conserving their cards. And this is an angle that Kaalia actually highlights by employing a Stax strategy.

If everyone else except the Kaalia pilot and one known Combo player are feeling the pain of a Stax piece, where do you think the attention of the table goes to? Ironically, it's not the Kaalia player. It's the Combo player with the minimal Board state that draws the most suspicion and questions.

My long-winded point is to agree with you with the core point you make in your post that Stax, when it's not a mutually agreed on strategy or one that's often experienced, will draw negative attention and more often than not cause you to lose the game since you have so many resources gunning for you. But, when played in the right playgroup and with the right selection of Stax pieces, a Stax strategy for a Kaalia decklist is extremely powerful

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

So, I read the responses in the afternoon and wanted to take some time to digest before forming a response. The sudden nature to rebel against a change that is seen as so commonplace as to be "just the way things work", is one that is not unexpected. People by their own nature dislike change because it's a new item they have to adapt for, and especially in Magic, it is one that is easier to just play the same deck rather than go back to the start and retest, reassess, and reupdate and rechange things in part with the proposed changes.

Kaalia is no different. Yes, we've played the same style for almost a decade now. And yes, we've always played mana rocks and mechanisms to circumvent mana costs - be that Kaalia herself, or sneak attack, reanimate, or quicksilver amulet as seen in my original list. So, here's the deal, there has always been tension in the decision to play some kind of interaction, or mana rock in those opening turns, and the latre you play one, the worse the other gets (those t6 talismans are ass, while that t5 Moon is too late and easy to play around). While most players would prefer to play the ramp, and not "lose cards" on interaction [an argument for another day surely, I'll spare you my thoughts on that debacle today], I've always favoured interaction. I know a lot of the modern crop of players favour gamestates where they can ignore everyone and only look up once they've combo killed the table, however I like to have removal and denial because I like to be in control with what people are or aren't doing. This deck, is a reflection of that idea. It takes a "pre-boarded" approach to games, based on the average expectancy of any given game of commander - people will play their rocks, treasure tokens, and they will do so in a very assuming manner with which they believe it's just a foregone conclusion that they can activate and use them. I disagree. I strongly believe in the ability to interact at such a level and catch them in this weird state of having two lands and a grip of uncastables. Command Zone games are especially prevalent to this idea, especially their recent games if you go back and notate just how often a single null rod or vandalblast would completely turn the game on it's head. I will strike at that, surprise them, then keep making my own land drops while they struggle. That's the squeeze. Oh, were they going to focus fire me for playing denial? Well, I'm on Kaalia, they were going to focus fire me anyway...might as well play to my outs.

And if I don't play some footwear? Does it really help her? If they had the answer, they were going to use it anyway. People know what she does, and they know the vulnerability between her resolution and activating the equip cost. But, here's the thing; they can't use the interaction if we take away their ability to. Left a single W up? Shame about that 3sphere on board. Got a nice, flexible, three mana removal in hand? Shame about that Moon afflicting you with colour death. I think, too often we as players get too caught up on the idea that we have to use Kaalia's ability or else we're failing, that we develop a sense of tunnel vision and lose sight of the other avenues we're gifted. Sure, she's the straight line approach, but really even in the early days, how often do you t3 Kaalia, and/or haste up, drop A threat (even rune-scarred), then next turn get wrath of god'd and you're struggling to play her again, if playing her again is even correct (after all she's six mana now, and often many of our threats are less). What's the difference if we slow down a tad and tighten the noose around everyone else, and then run our commander out? Besides still being +1 card in hand. Maybe we even saved a dose of command tax because they played their wipe to deal with something else while we're setting other pieces in place.

And for why I don't still play rocks in conjunction with a null rod? Have you ever stuck a mana crypt and then got stony silence'd? I have. Doesn't feel so good to keep getting lava spike'd and not do anything with it. And, since I view the Rod at a higher degree of importance (because of Golos' existence, as it's clear he's not going anywhere any time soon or ever...) it's only natural I've taken this stance. And, I'm not without ramp - I can still fix my colours and play my spells, tutour for my setups all the same - it's just a different approach to the deck, a new mindset that allows you to adapt to change and the new philosophies and self-indulgent entitlement of ramp decks. I hate, hate hate hate, being told my strategy "isn't appreciated" in a game, typically by the one person that is screeching from the top of their twelve lands and a nyxbloom ancient, that what they're doing is OK but what I'm doing is not. All strategies are created equal, maybe if they moved to a new strat, then I wouldn't be so cripplingly effective towards them. Besides, I'm not even blowing up lands now, it's unreasonable to get mad. You still have them, you can still use colourless answers a la Disk, O-Stone, Scour and All is Dust - oh, you didn't pack those because you're too busy playing all the juiced multicolour cards in your 4c partners deck? That's a shame. And that's a very real deck design issue that maybe should be addressed if you keep losing to it.

Does that put me into "old man shaking a fist and angrily yelling at clouds" territory? Probably. Am I right? Hard to say, tbh, can't play games during a pandemic. But I strongly believe it's better to try hard to create some kind of radical change and shift in the format - or to at least recognize those potentials for change - rather than just go along with the herd and blend in with a crowd. You've seen my contributions over the past decade, I'm anything but a herd follower, sometimes I strike gold like this Primer, other times my zeal and vigor is misguided at best and utterly self-destructive at worst. But regardless, nothing will change if you just do the same thing. Surely this isn't the end-all, be-all of the Primer, and as things move on maybe it will (I mean, surely it will, this is a living, breathing game) change to adapt again. At present, this is what I believe is necessary in the current state of the format, and no this is not nor will it ever be a cDH design spec - I don't have a cDH meta to speak of locally. My beliefs are my own, however, and I own them.

The Astrolabe/Prism effects are going to stay going forward, regardless of a shift in needs of the deck though. They are strong, and I like them more than Talismans and Signets if I'm being honest. Probably wouldn't make the cut without the cantrip, however. They make me want to explore a Goblin Welder version of Kaalia, with Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge and Covetous Dragon and the like. Memory Jar, Orbs......but that is for another day.

Do I like Vilis, Broker of Blood? Sure. He's a solid, strong card. He's soooooo much mana, and he's pretty uncastable outside of Kaalia which makes me hesitant to slot him in with no other synergy. But he's a strong drop that is typically a hair or three below rune-scarred in terms of power. And that's not a bad place to be, either.

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Then let us be old men shaking fists at the sky, lol. Hilarious image there.

Perhaps I didn't express my point clearly, but I whole-heartedly agree that playing Kaalia in such a way as to subvert the expectations has yielded the most wins for me. I think my wife or I, when we're piloting Kaalia, take time to first develop our mana sources and our Stax hold on the table so that our opponents are hindered or totally blanked out, as you mention. I remember one game where Kaalia ran wild due to an early Blood Moon effect and the Gitrog and Thrasios + Tymna player could literally do nothing. No mana dorks, no mana rocks, every land they drew and had in play was nonbasic. That was glorious; it was like a 3 mana "Win the game" moment. I still lost that game (because the Tasigur player had a Simic Signet that I couldn't quite draw removal for, for some reason!). Once a solid suite of Stax pieces have been deployed, THEN we cast Kaalia and start swinging away. So, the existential threat of being ABLE to cast Kaalia on T2/T3 does significantly change the dynamic of the games we're a part of and early mana rocks are a crucial way to that we actually subvert those expectations while still playing into this expectation. Sometimes we DO rush out Kaalia and watch her die/get countered so that this threat is always top of mind for our opponents in the long term. Those games don't often result in wins but occasionally do because people assume that we're down and out with Kaalia gone.

By deploying early mana rocks people naturally assume that you're gonna cast an early Kaalia and start hammering away. They ready their counterspells or their creature removal and then groan about the Cursed Totem or Blood Moon that comes down instead. They were ready for a Kaalia, but not for a Stax piece. Now that our playgroup has realized that Kaalia can subvert these expectations it opens up new lines of strategy where you can cast an early Kaalia, have her die/get countered and free up an opportunity to deploy the crippling Stax piece in hand. Kaalia, with a strong Stax strategy, is a threat overload kind of deck and I believe that mana rocks help to accentuate this pressure.

I can't remember where or when you mentioned it, but you talked about creating a safe opportunities to attack with Kaalia and then made the comparison that Kaalia is more akin to a Combo deck in this regard. When I first read this (maybe back in the early 2010's on MTGSalvation?) it really resonated with me and was made me first explore Stax cards in EDH. I'd never heard of them, seen them played, or anything similar to them before that post/comment but I began to recognize their power in buying turns and creating favorable game states for Kaalia to resolve.

So, I agree with your general philosophy about tightening the noose around the table before casting Kaalia. And maybe we're agreeing on the same core point but from different angles. For example, playing Lightning Greaves is a good choice for an especially Commander centric strategy and, while it may not deter the overall outcome of an opponent countering/killing Kaalia, it builds pressure around decision lines for your opponents. They'll need to keep that mana open to counter or kill Kaalia if there's some Boots on the field, otherwise Kaalia can swing and drop a terrible bomb that screws them over completely. The Boots build resiliency into the deck while increasing Kaalia's threat profile and opens up opportunities to subvert those expectations and capitalize on the tempo loss your opponents experience.

The reason that I prefer to play mana rocks alongside Stony SIlence and Null Rod (I really should add that card to my own cEDH Primer) is because there's a great feeling of resolving it alongside ANOTHER Stax piece simultaneously. Playing fast mana rocks or even fairly costed mana rocks is key in being able to double-spell in this way. I'm perfectly content in operating under a Stony Silence and glare at my Mana Crypt if my Kaalia line now resolves and starts to win me the game because my opponents only have 1-2 lands (typical for the cEDH lists Kaalia plays against most commonly). Kaalia, as a deck strategy, outputs more Combat damage per turn off of individual card quality than any other Commander in my opinion. A Stax strategy magnifies this key trait by creating windows of opportunity for these creatures to destroy my opponents life total while they're floundering with their resource inhibitions. My Kaalia list and playstyle hinges around creating layers of Stax effects that my opponents have to fight through in order to meaningfully advance their strategy and, while they're doing that, cast Kaalia and capitalize on their misery and tempo loss and add further pressure.

I respect that you own your beliefs and style of play as well as your dedication to pioneering new ideas and strategies for Kaalia. It may be that this argument requires a time element where you can get some anecdotal experiences that support your removal of artifact ramp from your list. And perhaps we should agree to disagree on this point? I dunno. Either way, this has been a very meaningful discussion for me and has helped elucidate some points that I take for granted when I'm playing Kaalia that may or may not be clear to anyone else lol.

While Vilis is prohibitive to cast without Kaalia, I think the power level of that card is akin to Griselbrand. Like, the card draw Vilis provides is borderline absurd and has won me games solely off the Card Draw ability. Mana Crypt. Painlands. Fetching. Necropotence. Painful Truths. Bob. The list of synergies with Vilis in Mardu colors is incredible. I see your concern with his casting cost but will attest to his incredible power if you untap with him. For me, that kind of risk is worth the heavy reward he brings.

I will say that I'm taking the Astrolabe into heavy consideration, so this has still been a productive experience for me. I love the synergy it has with Blood Moon while can-tripping.

EDIT: Clarified a few statements with additional words.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

All-in-all, it may very well turn out that I've gone full 180 into stax when a more lax position is required. Likely, some combination of the denial elements, as well as the better artifact mana. But, this is a start. And all I can do is assess things as I go - whenever I'm able to play again - and then build on those experiences.

At a minimum, I'm much more comfortable with Moons going forward, even in a 3c deck lacking g. That part comes together very well. And Vilis will probably end up in the deck at the end. It's...just a matter of time, really. Cantripping fetchlands are pretty good I hear.

On the docket: assessing and reassessing the proper quantities of stax to artifact mana ratio, Vilis' inclusion, Ob Nix 1 (11 fetches makes this a solid threat as well as another outlet with WGD) and Ob Nix 2 another stax element, Chancellor of the Annex return. Merits of Boots vs Crashing Drawbridge

...that's probably enough for now.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

@benjameenbear

I meant to ask, have you played the list as it stands, or were those observations purely an exercise in Mental Magic™? Because I've come across live feedback, of the deck in question from a number of experiences where they have played it and some of my assessments were accurate. I'll copy/paste from our Kaalia server here, as well as my responses to the situation;

Yeahhhh the null rod version....I was able to get 3 games in last night with a group of casual players.

Mistakes/learned:

1. Shuffle twice or else just play lands for 6 turns.

2. Nobody expects the type of lockdown coming from this kaalia build and its hilarious when it happens. :thumbsup:

3. I ended up forgetting to proxy generous gift so I switched it with wishclaw talisman. Unfortunately, I had dragon tempest get blown up before I could pull off hellkite tyrant + wish claw combo that next turn.

4. I definitely think my games would go better if wasnt facing off against hydras, werewolves, and Ghired, conclave exile. I wanted to play the deck as is so I left in the red counter spells; wasnt the best idea playing against 0 blue decks.

5. I've drawn into sire of insanity twice now while having a couple tutors in my hand to grab combo pieces... my issue currently is not keeping my hand full or being able to keep the pressure on after its started. I'm thinking that sire of insanity is definitely something you play after you've built up your board with creatures. I'm useally playing this demon because my hand is no longer helpful and everyone else has a hand I'm sketched about.

6. I probably should have stopped tutoring for land tax ...Ive had little to no issues with land draw.

7. Ghired won through an ultimate combo using kiki jiki and a white cat creature and used an enchantment that gives everything haste to deal 300 to each opp. If I had drawn lightning bolt I wouldnt have to mention this... could have spot checked his kiki and been done with it.

8. All in all, I think I need to play the deck for awhile and get used to it.


2) This is exactly what I thought would happen as it's pre-boarded nature makes for such a radical shift from what the majority expects from Kaalia. Excellent.

3) I really should get around to playing more wishclaw, maybe not in a null rod deck. I'm just so worried about the average case when you can't take it back. Maybe it's another case for the inevitable Goblin Welder take on Kaalia.....definitely not here though.

4) Such an.....odd, unusual expected match. Not just because I've never seen an REB not be live, but because...those tribes. Perhaps in your case, these are better suited to be Fork & Reverberate instead - piggyback off others' cultivates and tutours.

5) Sire is definitely a finisher, or a board stall winner. You force people to react in the moment which conventionally speaking, Kaalia performs much better with.

6) Yeah, it's got a good land count and ways to fix. How were Verge Rangers, if you drew them?

7) Rakdos Charm could have solved your problem with the "copy cat" combo, I suppose. It's always been my go to silver bullet for that while offering a shatter and tormod's crypt as needed.

8) Yeah, it's a mindfreak™ to get used to playing a deck a whole other way that we've conditioned ourselves to play one way. But we can adapt much faster because we're the one building, practising, and learning of the nuances to the archetype.

Was there anything else that comes to mind of the deck? Threat count? Too many slots for win cons? Tutour density? Removal density? (I know I'm lite on wipes and heavy on spot as a personal preference).

I want to add in ob nixilis, the fallen as a reasonably costed beater that also wins on a WGD loop, and ob nixilis, unshackled that is another lock-ish piece. I'd also like to add in Vilis, Broker of Blood not the combo, just as a "better" Kuro, Pitlord.

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