Acerak: The Carnival of Souls

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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 2 years ago

Everyone quickly noted that Acererak the Archlich 's payoff for completing his actual dungeon is pretty weak - the real sauce is infinite venturing with him alongside Rooftop Storm or Aluren. It's been a lively discussion in the awesome Varina primer on if that combo is worth including, and I think it could be.

But reading EDHREC's article on "The 600" made me realize - waitaminute, Acerak can actually do this in monoblack?

- Heartless Summoning gets Acerak down to just B. So does Urza's Incubator naming Zombies. Those are the two rockstar cards with Semblance Anvil as plan B, but we can also use any combination of two other reducers (Bontu's Monument and Jet Medallion are best, but there's also Herald's Horn, Undead Warchief, and Cloud Key).
- Having to still pay B is meh - but we can get around that too, and not just from the odd treasures out of our dungeons. One way to do that is with "one of the worst cards in Magic's history" - Carnival of Souls. Assuming we wait to go off until the moment we're ready, we can use this as a reducer - or, with other reducers, effectively cast Acerak as many times as we have life. Lost Mines and Mad Mage kick a bit of life back, Bontu's Monument keeps us even at base (and eventually kills the table). We can also enter escape velocity and gain eventually infinite life with Aetherflux Reservoir too.
- Alternatively, we can generate a ton of tokens with Genesis Chamber, Diregraf Colossus, or Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder. Now, those tokens are a bit awkward with Heartless sometimes without support - but if that wasn't our plan and we assembled other reducers, we can feed those tokens to Phyrexian Altar to keep going forever. Or, with Heartless out or with some other solid sacrifice outlet we can instead keep going with help from Pitiless Plunderer.
- Finally, we're gonna be drawing cards with all our ventures, and can draw more cards with Vanquisher's Banner, turning them into more mana with Skirge Familiar if we must.
- With infinite ventures, we do just eventually kill with Bontu's Monument, Aetherflux Reservoir, or even just Phandelver triggers. We can also speed stuff up with a variety of other EtB/dies effects, or by making a giant storm count and then doming people with Tendrils of Agony (we like Rituals anyways to help us pump out more ventures, so being a straight Storm deck isn't a terrible idea).

Now, I can hear you all reading - "but wait Hawk! All of those "infinites" are like 3-4 card combos! Even with Acerak in the command zone, and even with many of them having tons of redundancy, this deck feels super sketchy!" And to you all, I say - sure, true, but there's a few mitigating factors:

- We're in monoblack, and thus have all the best tutors in Magic at our fingertips. In addition to the inherent redundancy of the deck, we can fudge stuff further with stuff like Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and Beseech the Queen.
- Dungeon of the Mad Mage draws so many cards and scrys through so much chaff that it's pretty good even if we're taking the "slow path" and just venturing 2-5 times per turn.
- We're also in the color of Cabal Coffers and Crypt Ghast, and as a monocolored deck we're primed to utilize Jeweled Lotus, Caged Sun, Dark Ritual, and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx to bootstrap our mana - it's not hard to imagine us being able to complete Dungeon of the Mad Mage every turn (possibly even multiple times per turn) even without an infinite at our disposal, which is just a ton of value.

Here's my first draft of the deck:

As a few notes:
1. This deck is still 11 cards to completion. I'm having a hard time figuring out what I want - a few things I have in mind: I don't think more interaction is needed; this is fundamentally a combo deck and I'd even hear an argument that what I'm already running is too much. This is more thought experiment than real deck for me but what are your thoughts?

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 2 years ago

You might want to include Sculpting Steel so you can copy the reduce-by-1 cards like Jet Medallion. You're running a critical enough mass of them that copying one is worthwhile.

If it's in your budget (or your collection), Planar Gate might be worthwhile, though it's probably too slow.

While Carnival of Souls is unique in functionality, are you considering running Bubbling Muck or Rain of Filth for singular big turns?

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

Heck yeah, I think I am going to start working on Acererak and am happy to find some like minded brewers!

What is the reasoning for jeweled lotus? This seems like a wasted slot in this deck with all the mana reduction and combo focus.

Is Tendrils of Agony Necessary? Acererak has a built in infinite wincon, so if you are storming out you have already won.

Panharmonicon helps you get there when you can't go infinite, perhaps the Tendrils does as well.

One of my favorite stax combos that I have yet to find an appropriate deck for (Braids would be it if she was legal) is Salvaging Station and flayer husk. It needs a sac outlet, but might have a place in this deck to help go infinite without carnival of souls. Arcbound Ravager, claws of gix, grinding station, defiant salvager, krark-clan ironworks

Mycosynth lattice allows for more ways to cast Acererak infinitely...

All the jank lol.
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Ardeyn
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Post by Ardeyn » 2 years ago

This deck definitely needs K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth as a back up for the Carnival. He allows you to pay for the black mana with life, thus going infinite with anything that gives you enough life on cast or etb, e.g. Aetherflux Reservoir.
The Immortal Sun is probably worth including as it does quite a bit more than just enable your combo.
Tome of Legends is some nice, painless draw since you plan on casting your commander quite a number of times even without combo.

Unfortunately, with Mycosynth Lattice you will still have to spend actual mana on the colored cost of Acererak even though it allows you to spend any color.
Speaking of colors: why is there a Command Tower in your list of lands? This reduces your swamp count for no benefit whatsoever?
Also, Deadly Rollick will cost four almost all the time, since you're not really planning on having your commander on the battlefield. Or you'll be forced to cast it as a sorcery basically. I think Baleful Mastery, Hero's Downfall or Snuff Out would be better in this slot.

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Post by Ulka » 2 years ago

I'm loving the list. I also think K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth should be in here as it can allow you to play a bit more loose when you don't have the full kill combo assembled yet. I would also recommend taking a look at some of the K'rrik cEDH lists as they play in a very similar vein to how you are operating.

Necropotence seems like it should be in the list but I know it doesn't synergize with the cost reducers too much but still its a lot of power I would recommend testing in the list if you have the space.

Finally if you can afford it Lake of the Dead seems like an opportune card here as it will allow more of the explosive turns.
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Post by Hawk » 2 years ago

Sinis wrote:
2 years ago
You might want to include Sculpting Steel so you can copy the reduce-by-1 cards like Jet Medallion. You're running a critical enough mass of them that copying one is worthwhile.

If it's in your budget (or your collection), Planar Gate might be worthwhile, though it's probably too slow.

While Carnival of Souls is unique in functionality, are you considering running Bubbling Muck or Rain of Filth for singular big turns?
Currently this deck is Theorycraft, and idk if I'd build it as it seems more fun in theory than in play as a hardcore combo deck (and I'm missing a ton of the $$$ pieces for the deck). I think Planar Gate is right on the cusp; it does make Acerak 1, and it's an awesome hit off of DotMM, but it is very slow otherwise. Sculpting Steel is an intriguing point though, and I can for sure see the argument even though Bontu's Monument is legendary. It'd get even better if I decided to add Oketra's Monument, Hazoret's Monument, or just more mana rocks and moxen too.

I was struggling to remember good rituals yesterday beyond Dark and Cabal. I figured this deck doesn't appear to have a strong enough creature count to effectively utilize Songs of the Damned or Culling the Weak or Sacrifice. I just plum forgot that Muck and Rain existed though, and I do think they're strong contenders for sure.
plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
Heck yeah, I think I am going to start working on Acererak and am happy to find some like minded brewers!

What is the reasoning for jeweled lotus? This seems like a wasted slot in this deck with all the mana reduction and combo focus.

Is Tendrils of Agony Necessary? Acererak has a built in infinite wincon, so if you are storming out you have already won.

Panharmonicon helps you get there when you can't go infinite, perhaps the Tendrils does as well.

One of my favorite stax combos that I have yet to find an appropriate deck for (Braids would be it if she was legal) is Salvaging Station and flayer husk. It needs a sac outlet, but might have a place in this deck to help go infinite without carnival of souls. Arcbound Ravager, claws of gix, grinding station, defiant salvager, krark-clan ironworks

Mycosynth lattice allows for more ways to cast Acererak infinitely...

All the jank lol.
Jeweled Lotus is a weird one in this deck. It exists less to cheat out a turn 1 Acererak (since gaining a life or scrying 1 turn 1 isn't that exciting, and we're looking to speedrun a dungeon and not slow grind it), and more as a way once we've already got some reducers to effectively help cast Acererak three times in one turn.

My thought process was - let's say its turn 5-6, I've found a way to get Acererak to just B, and it's now time to start grinding DotMM. I want to be able to find cards in all my scrying 6 + drawing 5 that will allow me to make more mana to potentially do the dungeon again, because once we start the engine we're gonna have a big target on our back. I imagine once folks see that we can easily complete DotMM every turn and that it is extremely hard to interact with or stop it since Acererak just stays in our hand most of the time, they're gonna be aiming all our artifact destruction at our stuff or swinging like crazy at us. I was hard pressed to find good ways to chain out more black mana once we're cranking out with our speedrun and this seemed slightly better than the aforementioned Culling and Songs, and on-par plus or minus with Lion's Eye Diamond. Seriously, I was so hard up to find ways to keep going by finding more black sources during the speedrun phase that I even remotely considered Thieves' Tools and other treasure-makers...

And forgot that Bubbling Muck, Rain of Filth, and even moxen like Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond exist. Those are all good calls to replace Jeweled in this deck for sure.

I agree that Tendrils of Agony probably is overkill, even with the inclusion of K'rrik. As you point out, if we have infinite ventures we just win by switching to the Lost Mines of Phandelver since every dungeon run generates a drain. We speed that up with Bontu's Monument or Ayara, First of Locthwain, and those also go a long way towards just choking people out if we're only completing DotMM once or twice per turn.

I thought a lot about Panharmonicon, and it's on the maybeboard. Four mana to double our ventures only matters if we're stalling out on an infinite.

I think the artifact engine is a bit too cute, but will also keep it in mind - I appreciate the callout!
Ardeyn wrote:
2 years ago
This deck definitely needs K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth as a back up for the Carnival. He allows you to pay for the black mana with life, thus going infinite with anything that gives you enough life on cast or etb, e.g. Aetherflux Reservoir.
The Immortal Sun is probably worth including as it does quite a bit more than just enable your combo.
Tome of Legends is some nice, painless draw since you plan on casting your commander quite a number of times even without combo.

Unfortunately, with Mycosynth Lattice you will still have to spend actual mana on the colored cost of Acererak even though it allows you to spend any color.
Speaking of colors: why is there a Command Tower in your list of lands? This reduces your swamp count for no benefit whatsoever?
Also, Deadly Rollick will cost four almost all the time, since you're not really planning on having your commander on the battlefield. Or you'll be forced to cast it as a sorcery basically. I think Baleful Mastery, Hero's Downfall or Snuff Out would be better in this slot.

Ardeyn
Thank you for the comment! I totally forgot about K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth. He does seem critical for sure as a "second Carnival" that makes it pretty easy to, if not infinite, at least complete DotMM seven times in a turn (which, having thus drawn 35 cards scrying all the way, should make sure you win when it is all said and done). I also like Tome here. I'll have to noodle more The Immortal Sun - like Planar Gate, 6 is a lot and it's only a 1-cost reduction. But, it hoses superfriends, helps if we're strong but not infinite yet, and makes Heartless Summoning less awkward with all our token makers.

Also good call on Deadly Rollick - having to cast it at sorcery speed isn't that fun. I definitely like Snuff Out or Baleful Mastery in the slot instead. Thanks!

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Post by Sinis » 2 years ago

Hawk wrote:
2 years ago
I was struggling to remember good rituals yesterday beyond Dark and Cabal. I figured this deck doesn't appear to have a strong enough creature count to effectively utilize Songs of the Damned or Culling the Weak or Sacrifice. I just plum forgot that Muck and Rain existed though, and I do think they're strong contenders for sure.
Yeah, I think Songs or Sacrifice are for other specific decks, so I didn't recommend them (alongside Crypt of Agadeem even though we're in mono-black). I wonder about Rain of Filth; because you need so many Acererak casts to move towards wins, I have doubts it will ever be worth it to clear out your swamps.

Yeah, I had forgotten that Bontu's Monument is legendary, but I think Sculpting will almost always have hits given the rest of your artifacts.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

Ardeyn wrote:
2 years ago
Unfortunately, with Mycosynth Lattice you will still have to spend actual mana on the colored cost of Acererak even though it allows you to spend any color.
Right you cannot reduce the B in the casting cost, but this opens up more ways to combo still with infinite loops with things like ashnod's altar right? So you can spend c mana instead of B mana in acererak's cost. Unless I am not reading the card right maybe.

Now you have an infinite Acererak loop with
Genesis Chamber + Ashnod's Altar + any reducer

It's really expensiveat 6cmc, but if the deck leans towards "big mana" maybe it is worth considering. On that, maybe Darksteel Forge is too since everything we care about is an artifact and artifacts are easy to blow up...
Last edited by plaganegra 2 years ago, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

Hawk wrote:
2 years ago
On Jeweled Lotus:

My thought process was - let's say its turn 5-6, I've found a way to get Acererak to just B, and it's now time to start grinding DotMM. I want to be able to find cards in all my scrying 6 + drawing 5 that will allow me to make more mana to potentially do the dungeon again, because once we start the engine we're gonna have a big target on our back. I imagine once folks see that we can easily complete DotMM every turn and that it is extremely hard to interact with or stop it since Acererak just stays in our hand most of the time, they're gonna be aiming all our artifact destruction at our stuff or swinging like crazy at us. I was hard pressed to find good ways to chain out more black mana once we're cranking out with our speedrun and this seemed slightly better than the aforementioned Culling and Songs, and on-par plus or minus with Lion's Eye Diamond. Seriously, I was so hard up to find ways to keep going by finding more black sources during the speedrun phase that I even remotely considered Thieves' Tools and other treasure-makers...

I thought a lot about Panharmonicon, and it's on the maybeboard. Four mana to double our ventures only matters if we're stalling out on an infinite.

I think the artifact engine is a bit too cute, but will also keep it in mind - I appreciate the callout!
I love your reasoning for including jeweled lotus, now - isn't that the exact same reason to run panharmonicon? You don't need it when you are going infinite, you need it when you can't but want value. It effectively doubles the amount of B you are spending to venture by doubling the trigger instead of the mana itself. That to me seems extremely good!

Yeah the artifact stuff I mentioned is all jank lol. I was looking for a couple secondary value engines that work well with the strategy. So far I am not sure what that should be but was considering:
  • Zombies
  • secondary ETB value focus to take advantage of the mana and cost reduction in the deck
  • Mono Black Control Shell
  • Alternative Combo wins (like bolas's citadel)
I am not really sure yet what direction is optimal, most fun, or makes the most sense.

Other cards to consider: Edit - I went ahead and made my first draft of the deck. It looks CEDH-ey but I am sure it is not lol. Just went all in on Acererak triggers.

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Putting these here because I am sick of toggling another tab haha. It really helps to see what you get for all your efforts in a non combo win situation. There are more tokens than I realized...

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

Nobody else working on this?

Also I just realized the name is misspelled in the thread title
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My Varina Decklist
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Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Chatterfang, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat, Preston, Sauron.
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