Bruna, the Fading Light - Mono-W Moat Control

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Keep in mind that you can give mass first strike on defense. Angelic Skirmisher triggers on opponents combat steps too and mass first strike easily cuts down a Grave Titan with no losses. Bruna gives you 5/6 of the power you need to make him go away so really any other body on defense easily persuades mr titan to go away.
Yeah, it was more that it kept coming back. And I guess the mitigating factor that counted against me was Noxious Ghoul being a presence too, so even if I had blocked I'd have come out suffering.

On reflection I think it was just a bad day at the office for Angelic Skirmisher. Didn't really have the draw power to make an army, I kept drawing into land. That being said I am still thinking of squeezing Angel of Finality into the deck, At some point shortly I'll sit down and work it out, I still have to get Drannith Magistrate and Bonders' Enclave in there too. Babies really make you realise that time is a currency most people take for granted!
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Oh, your graveyard hate package seems..... almost non existent. Yea, you probably need some grave hate. My own list is up to running Phyrexian Furnace, Scrabbling Claws, Soul-Guide Lantern, and Hallowed Moonlight.

What I like about all of them is that all of the ones I am running cantrip and don't hit me. Devoting a slot to doing only grave hate is a bigger liability but I find that all of these cards cheaply cantrip when I don't need them but can also do some serious work when needed. Its true that Phyrexian Furnace and Scrabbling Claws can come up a little short against a graveyard abuse deck but I took the trade off of that over dedicating something stronger like Tormod's Crypt that can be a dud when its not relevant. I also considered the 4 mana angel but in the end, I didn't like that I couldn't tutor for her and in the cases where grave hate isn't what you need she felt weak. I instead went with having more cards that could interact with graves and just tried to get them to all cantrip and not hurt me if they weren't what I needed.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Oh, your graveyard hate package seems..... almost non existent. Yea, you probably need some grave hate. My own list is up to running Phyrexian Furnace, Scrabbling Claws, Soul-Guide Lantern, and Hallowed Moonlight.

What I like about all of them is that all of the ones I am running cantrip and don't hit me. Devoting a slot to doing only grave hate is a bigger liability but I find that all of these cards cheaply cantrip when I don't need them but can also do some serious work when needed. Its true that Phyrexian Furnace and Scrabbling Claws can come up a little short against a graveyard abuse deck but I took the trade off of that over dedicating something stronger like Tormod's Crypt that can be a dud when its not relevant. I also considered the 4 mana angel but in the end, I didn't like that I couldn't tutor for her and in the cases where grave hate isn't what you need she felt weak. I instead went with having more cards that could interact with graves and just tried to get them to all cantrip and not hurt me if they weren't what I needed.
Yeah, being honest it's really not something I see all that often, so it hasn't really been required. Usually it's me spamming from the grave. Online games, you never really know, I just haven't run into many other reanimator decks at all.

I can see how it's probably worth adding some pieces in to cover it off. Soul-Guide Lantern seems pretty great, as does Hallowed Moonlight - the latter I like because it covers things like Genesis Wave and Primal Surge too.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Hallowed Moonlight also stops tokens which is hilarious against some big burst token generation tactics. Its really an underrated card and its sweet in that its grave hate without hitting our own grave that still cantrips when it isn't relivant.

I am still waiting to live the dream of someone doing a Ghostway into my moonlight lol.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Hallowed Moonlight also stops tokens which is hilarious against some big burst token generation tactics. Its really an underrated card and its sweet in that its grave hate without hitting our own grave that still cantrips when it isn't relivant.

I am still waiting to live the dream of someone doing a Ghostway into my moonlight lol.
Yeah, I think it's easily worth getting a copy. My wife's Gishath, Sun's Avatar deck will hate it :love:
Pretty sure I have a Soul-Guide Lantern kicking about somewhere.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Random thought, but what do people think of Shattered Angel? I was thinking along the lines of like, an alternative or another idea along the lines of Angelic Skirmisher. Assuming you have Bruna + Skirmisher you can potentially gain 9 life in an attack but Shattered Angel should also give you 9 life in a turn rotation of four players assuming everyone just hits their land drops. This isn't factoring anyone ramping lands in and it doesn't require any additional setup to give some life padding not to mention costing less mana which is good for the curve / equipment carrying and it requires no additional setup to work.

It also could be relevant with some effects that care how often you gain life. I don't run many of those but it could be cool with Archangel of Thune. Its probably a little worse for Resplendent Angel though as its in your opponents control as to if you get a token.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Random thought, but what do people think of Shattered Angel? I was thinking along the lines of like, an alternative or another idea along the lines of Angelic Skirmisher. Assuming you have Bruna + Skirmisher you can potentially gain 9 life in an attack but Shattered Angel should also give you 9 life in a turn rotation of four players assuming everyone just hits their land drops. This isn't factoring anyone ramping lands in and it doesn't require any additional setup to give some life padding not to mention costing less mana which is good for the curve / equipment carrying and it requires no additional setup to work.

It also could be relevant with some effects that care how often you gain life. I don't run many of those but it could be cool with Archangel of Thune. Its probably a little worse for Resplendent Angel though as its in your opponents control as to if you get a token.
I think it's relatively worth considering in the right place. I probably don't run quite enough life gain tech to make it super relevant, but with things like Well of Lost Dreams and such it could be great.
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Random thought, but what do people think of Shattered Angel?
When I first started playing EDH, Shattered Angel was definitely tech people played. I think it's probably worthwhile in a vacuum, but, there are also a lot of really good angels at 5, and I would have trouble wanting to give SA priority over them because of SA's miserable body (Archangel of Thune, Baneslayer, Lyra).

Edit to add: I'm seeing this through my version's lens, where I don't play many lifegain payoffs like Speaker of the Heavens. I think if you're playing those cards, it'll be worthwhile, but, I don't see Bruna going in that direction (well, I don't see my Bruna going in that direction).

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Well I managed another game in today. Had a stupendously good start with t1 Sol Ring and t3 Palace Jailer. That thing is great. Monarch is so not to be underestimated, I went from a 5 card hand after mulling to a full grip of gas.

Deck performed really well. I had a nice reanimation chain going with Karmic Guide, Solemn Simulacrum and our commander, and had the board well under control with control options, as well as being super flush for land. It was an interesting game for monarch to come up as one of the decks was Thantis, the Warweaver, but I had plenty of chumps, and being able to keep Karmic Guide about made things pretty easy, as every other deck at the table splashed black.

Sometimes everything comes together nicely, and you just have everyone where you want them whether they realise it or not. At this point there's a few bits I'm hoping to pick up and actually make some tweaks in the next few days, but it depends if I can get enough time to open the deck box IRL, and that's up to the wee man. Fingers crossed :)
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

I agree in the value of monarch in this deck. There will be times that we can't defend it but we can usually reclaim it in those times. I really have not gone back on running essentially all of the monarch cards. Every once in a blue moon I will see more than one of them but having spun it up sooner and more often makes up for it in my mind still.
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

Monarch isn't in my version, but, I definitely want to try it the way you guys talk about it!

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
Monarch isn't in my version, but, I definitely want to try it the way you guys talk about it!
I was a HUGE skeptic before adding Palace Jailer and after seeing him like twice I went all in on it. I totally did not expect to get the kind of results that I did from it. Its like having a Phyrexian Arena in white that pays you on your turn and can't be removed. The downside of it being able to be passed is actually not that big of a deal because our creatures tend to be so good in combat that it usually takes some level of unblockable, huge trampler, or swarm to take it from us. Bruna on her own is such a brick wall that she really does a great job of making it hard to take it from us and making it hard to keep it from us as well.

I would say that like, 60-80% of the time when I spin up Monarch its almost exclusively me drawing from it. Even when others do get in on it, usually being mono white our card draw is so much worse than everyone else's that its helping us more than them even if someone is getting in on it.
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

@ISBPathfinder @toctheyounger Which monarch cards are you running? Palace Jailer, but also Throne of the High City? I don't imagine we're going as deep as Protector of the Crown and Palace Sentinels (though, Sentinels ARE a human...)

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

@ISBPathfinder pretty much covered why Monarch works so well for us. The draw just keeps us fresh for control options and answers and that counts significantly more for us than most other decks. And, of course, our major win condition being combat means we're better equipped to defend the crown. As an added bonus I've also found people really enjoy the mechanic too, it's an added layer of depth to the game which makes things a bit more fun.

I'm running Palace Jailer, Protector of the Crown and Throne of the High City myself. Protector I would potentially cut, any may well do, but it's not without it's charms nonetheless. Palace Jailer though, is actually really great. This last game I exiled a Blood Artist controlled by Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker which potentially could've been pretty clutch if it'd stayed in play, and the Jailer came down early enough to defend the crown really quite easily.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

I am running all of them for redundancy reasons. I have on a few occasions managed to set up Indestructible on Protector of the Crown which is kinda funny. I haven't activated the land yet but I think I have hit all of the other ones at this point. I have been more than pleased to have them.
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

So, you're all telling me that Protector of the Crown, despite being off-tribe and 6 mana is really, really good, eh? I can see it being a good plan with Avacyn.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
So, you're all telling me that Protector of the Crown, despite being off-tribe and 6 mana is really, really good, eh? I can see it being a good plan with Avacyn.
It also blocks the first attempt to steal monarch and you can block with other creatures to keep him alive through small pokes. He spins up Monarch and forces opponents to send a reasonable attack your way to make him die and then you still have Monarch. In my eyes its better card draw than Staff of Nin and beyond Avacyn both Emerias can rez him which both steals monarch back and makes you REALLY tanky.

In a lot of cases, the 6 mana artifacts to spin up draw can be sort of slow, clunky, and easily removed. This brings in some card draw that wont go away and it defends you from the next reasonable attack. Compare the draw even to something like Endless Atlas which generally is going to cost you four mana the turn you play it unless you play it on turn two. The difference between what you get from this four mana play vs the six mana play of Protector of the Crown is more accurately how I look at this. Its card draw, sure its not on tribe but its going to continue to draw cards and its DANG robust. It even lets you wrath the board a bit easier on any front and not remove your own draw.

I am at the point where I would more likely remove Endless Atlas from my list than I would the monarch cards.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
So, you're all telling me that Protector of the Crown, despite being off-tribe and 6 mana is really, really good, eh? I can see it being a good plan with Avacyn.
It also blocks the first attempt to steal monarch and you can block with other creatures to keep him alive through small pokes. He spins up Monarch and forces opponents to send a reasonable attack your way to make him die and then you still have Monarch. In my eyes its better card draw than Staff of Nin and beyond Avacyn both Emerias can rez him which both steals monarch back and makes you REALLY tanky.

In a lot of cases, the 6 mana artifacts to spin up draw can be sort of slow, clunky, and easily removed. This brings in some card draw that wont go away and it defends you from the next reasonable attack. Compare the draw even to something like Endless Atlas which generally is going to cost you four mana the turn you play it unless you play it on turn two. The difference between what you get from this four mana play vs the six mana play of Protector of the Crown is more accurately how I look at this. Its card draw, sure its not on tribe but its going to continue to draw cards and its DANG robust. It even lets you wrath the board a bit easier on any front and not remove your own draw.

I am at the point where I would more likely remove Endless Atlas from my list than I would the monarch cards.
I haven't had a huge level of experience with Monarch just yet, but that more or less mirrors what my thoughts are. I really like Endless Atlas, but Monarch is solid, and Protector of the Crown is great control for us. And, if anything I have at least one more way to grab it back than you with Karmic Guide too.

Sure it's off-tribe but that isn't the end of the world.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

So I finally managed 90 minutes alone with my decks, and got to swap some cards in and out:

None of these are super surprising, so I think it all relatively makes sense. Magistrate is gonna be a bit rough, but I'm certainly not going to care overly if it gets shanked (and it will). It's there to give breathing space for me to wind up and carry equipment. Moonlight is anti-reanimator tech, anti token tech and anti cheat into play tech, and it cantrips. I probably should've had this in here earlier. Enclave is like Arch of Orazca, but cheaper.

In terms of removal, Hedron Archive is in that awkward place of dropping later than I'd like, and not producing enough c to be truly worthwhile. It misses Sun Titan too. Staff of Nin is fine, but I've kind of noticed that it's one of those cards that by the time I've got the resource to cast it I'm pretty ok not to, so I really don't see missing it overly. Since the addition of Monarch and some lower to the ground draw it's surplus to requirement really.

So I guess as well as these, it's probably worth discussing Double Masters. There's at least a couple of potential additions in Stoneforge Mystic and Sword of Fire and Ice, as well as Path to Exile. Not gonna lie, all three of these are tempting to grab, but from what I hear there's a very limited print run so I can't see prices dropping a ton on any of them. I'll definitely keep eyes peeled though, I've got prices in mind and if any of them get within range I'll grab some bits and pieces. Bare minimum it'd be nice to have a few copies of Path for other decks too.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
So I guess as well as these, it's probably worth discussing Double Masters. There's at least a couple of potential additions in Stoneforge Mystic and Sword of Fire and Ice, as well as Path to Exile. Not gonna lie, all three of these are tempting to grab, but from what I hear there's a very limited print run so I can't see prices dropping a ton on any of them. I'll definitely keep eyes peeled though, I've got prices in mind and if any of them get within range I'll grab some bits and pieces. Bare minimum it'd be nice to have a few copies of Path for other decks too.
If you are debating between Stoneforge Mystic and Sword of Fire and Ice and they cost the same, I would go with Stoneforge every time. Given that it looks like Fire and Ice is still twice as much (at least for me in the states) I would not hesitate to say stoneforge over sword.

Honestly, I often would rather have Mask of Memory than I would Sword of Fire and Ice in a lot of cases. Obviously if you can bully someone's commander off the table or kill an Oracle of Mul Daya its a bit different but my average expected value I would much rather have a draw 2 ditch 1 than a draw 1 + shock. The mana cost also lets you curve from Stoneforge into a Mask play early if you draw it up that way where as Sword can feel clunky early on. Don't get me wrong, there are times where Sword of Fire and Ice is MVP but I am just saying it is a lot more dependent on what your opponents are playing which is something that is out of our control. If you can stick a SoF&I vs Azami for instance, you are going to ruin them. The protections though aren't the best colors for evasion though and like I said, the shock value varies wildly. The value of getting Stoneforge early and getting the option to getting Sword of the Animist and already having that body to carry it is really solid though. Stoneforge will smooth out and add consistency to your equipment plan where as I prefer having SoF&I after I have the equipment consistency because its not nearly as good early on. I would go so far as to say that I would likely add Stoneforge Mystic and Steelshaper's Gift to the list before I would consider buying SoF&I.

When it comes to Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile I am a bit of a black sheep. I think they have their place and time but I think I am having a much harder time including them anymore. More and more combos don't involve creatures or can't be responded to by killing a creature (looking at you Thassa's Oracle). Some things like Walking Ballista + Heliod, Sun-Crowned can even be a challenge given that if they have the mana to activate twice they go right past your removal. There are still times it will work and there are some things like Consecrated Sphinx that must be answered immediately but I am getting to the point where I don't like creature only removal like this because they aren't that efficient at removing commanders and the number of non commander creatures that I need and can use spot removal on feels like its dwindling. I myself went a bit wierd lately and added more activated ability commander hate just kind of responsively based on a lot of the commanders I have seen lately. I have oddly enough been sort of hot on Cast Out lately given the diversity in what it can do even though it is a 4 mana effect its targeting options and cycling option have all been just solid for me.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
snip
Yeah, I agree. Early equipment carriers significantly improve the fortunes of this deck, and this was my thought too. I'm not willing to pay the going rate for Fire & Ice, although Mystic is currently (prior to actual release date) just slightly more costly than I'd like, too. Ideally my max for it is like $30 and it's currently closer to $40. It's a gamble leaving it with a limited print run, but one I'm willing to make. I picked up Sword of War and Peace for cheap already, though it might not see play here anyway.

Steelshaper's Gift I'm absolutely desperate for here, and my LGS just had a copy traded (the other perk of chase reprint sets, right?), and I've got like $100 in store credit from trading a Thrasios, Triton Hero and Volrath's Stronghold, so I might pick it up. It's like $13, and without a reprint I can't see it getting cheaper any time soon. I sort of do want to save some credit for Commander Legends later on in the year just in case though, just because you never know. I...don't really have anything else set aside that will give me that sort of value to spend up come that release time, so I sort of wanted to be a tad frugal with Double Masters.

I sort of feel the same way about Swords/Path. I've been looking sideways at Cast Out too. It's pretty reasonable value and we do have at least a couple of ways of getting good mileage from it, so I may well make some switches shortly.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

So....quick update....I completely backtracked on the above statement and ordered a Stoneforge Mystic, as well as Steelshaper's Gift. They're both great additions to this list, and at least Mystic should hold it's value. I couldn't help it, the credit was burning a hole in my pocket :laugh:
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Keeper of the Accord kind of makes me want to go deep on the Lotus Field concepts in this deck. There are a number of them that I haven't bothered running and it make me want to get testing in with Magus of the Balance even more lol.

Going super deep and running Lotus Vale / Karoo might be a little extreme........... but given more payoffs for having less lands it makes me really consider it. Its possible to Vesuva a Lotus Field I suppose.... Manascape Refractor also seems like it might be a thing if we have a bunch of lands that tap for two - three mana.

EDIT: Balancing Act could also be reasonable if you push hard enough on these sac lands.
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
3 years ago
Keeper of the Accord kind of makes me want to go deep on the Lotus Field concepts in this deck.
They keep churning out these cards. Gift of Estates isn't really playable anymore with all these new options coming out. I haven't even tested Verge Rangers, which I think is pretty solid on stats/keyword plus effect. Even Land Tax is starting to look suspect, and that's a sentence I never thought I'd type out.
There are a number of them that I haven't bothered running and it make me want to get testing in with Magus of the Balance even more lol.

Going super deep and running Lotus Vale / Karoo might be a little extreme........... but given more payoffs for having less lands it makes me really consider it. Its possible to Vesuva a Lotus Field I suppose.... Manascape Refractor also seems like it might be a thing if we have a bunch of lands that tap for two - three mana.

EDIT: Balancing Act could also be reasonable if you push hard enough on these sac lands.
As much as I like Lotus Field and related technologies (including the usual gremlins like Land Tax, Tithe, Wayfarer, etc.), I think Magus of the Balance would be a bridge too far. Balance as a symmetrical thing is only really exciting when you're deep in artifacts and enchantments, and I think we're just not there (this deck really is creature-oriented). But, it's fun to think about how deep we could go? Oath of Lieges for the 'real' ramp player at the table?

Balancing Act, despite being superficially similar, punishes all but the person who drew the least cards (rather than Balance's permanent type shenanigans). If we're playing with all these 'I'm behind on lands' mechanics, Balancing Act is more likely to bite us in the behind than anyone else, simply because of the 'draw' efficiency related to cards like Land Tax or these Keeper of the Accord guys.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

@Sinis I have actually long since stopped using Gift of Estates / Land Tax. Too often I found myself reliant on there being a green ramp player for them to work for me. Essentially since Sword of the Animist got printed I have had issues where I often have the most lands in play given my tutor access to that card. It depends on the meta as well as to how much green ramp you see as well.

Balancing Act / Magus of the Balance - I think they still work well against several type of strategies. It is true that artifact / enchantment / planeswalker strategies work well with the magus but I think the both of them work well against swarm / token concepts and both of them do punish ramp players. Balancing Act is unique in counting all permanents in play as well. Both of them also play well with Monarch being that it isn't a permanent. Being the player casting them we can also time them by playing defense / chump blocking with our creatures before casting them. I do agree that they aren't the same as actual Balance but the effects to sacrifice / bounce lands to have lower land counts do make me interested with them.
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