Sefris of the Kind of Obvious Ways

yeti1069
Posts: 1178
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Sefris of the Kind of Obvious Ways



Picked up the precons with the thought that I'd just play them out of the box at some lower powered tables, but then I played this deck and it WENT OFF! I was churning through dungeons, reanimating threats, and when I got home immediately sat down to make some quick edits. Target is to be fairly casual, kind of mid-tier. The only combo I'm running that I'm aware of is Karmic Guide + Reveillark.

RADIANT SOLAR IS THE BEST CARD IN THE DECK


I do know the deck could use some tweaks still, and I've got some cards that I'm considering, but I'd appreciate any suggestions on adds and what to cut for them, or cut for the cards in my considerations pile. The curve is definitely a bit high, and could stand to be lower. So far in games, it's been slow to get rolling, but builds up steam if I can get a little bit of an engine going. In particular, Radiant Solar is far and away the best card in the deck. Once it comes down, it becomes fairly easy to chug through a dungeon multiple times in a turn, especially with the creatures that can bring back other creatures. The crazy game I had out of the box involved cloning the Solar and getting through a dungeon 3 times in one turn, and then I was on my 4th or 5th trip through on the following turn when the game ended.

The last game I played with this list, Propoganda and Glen Elendra kept me alive countering spells and triggering Sefris, while Viscera Seer helped to trigger from turn to turn. Serra's Emissary set to 'creatures' bought me a couple of turns until someone found an answer, then I used the Lamia to fetch Sheoldred and started to pull ahead from there. Finally ended the game when I used the Phantom Steed to exile the Lamia and block a big attack, which returned the Lamia to the battlefield, tutored Radiant Solar into my yard, and triggered Sefris completing a dungeon to bring Radiant back.

Those kinda of plays are what I'm enjoying with the deck.

Probably need more sac outlets.

Image
Sefris of the Hidden Ways

Planeswalkers

Enchantments

Approximate Total Cost:

Cards I'm Considering
Approximate Total Cost:

Last edited by yeti1069 7 months ago, edited 9 times in total.

Tags:

yeti1069
Posts: 1178
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Necrotic Sliver is a bit slow, but is solid utility.
Curator of Mysteries looks fairly underwhelming, but it came with the deck, and I had initially been thinking that cycling creatures would be good here...if only most of them weren't pretty dull. This could probably go.
Baleful Strix may be too low impact here, although it does make a great blocker.
Ronom Unicorn should definitely be something else, although it DID allow me to instant speed complete a dungeon to reanimate.
Phantom Steed is probably not doing enough here, but...could be with some of the better ETB creatures.
The looters may be too slow, but they feel like they do enough of what the deck wants at a low cost. I've gotten to use one to generate a fair number of triggers, but I also got to the point where I no longer had creatures to discard, and wasn't increasing my hand size.
Shriekmaw may be too narrow.
Murder of Crows looks good, and triggers on ANY creature dying, but Sefris is still only 1/turn, so I'm not sure how much I can actually utilize this.
Cataclysmic Gearhulk is great as a boardwipe on a body, and my out-of-the-box game with this deck hinged largely on getting this down, then following up with some addition removal to blast the remaining threat one the table. Not to mention the enormous rattlesnake that is this card back in the graveyard, ready to blow up things again. Still, I don't love that it doesn't hit the best permanents of any type a player controls. Do we have a better option?

yeti1069
Posts: 1178
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Well, I just had an INSANE game with this deck. Got going a bit without too much interaction, and eventually ended up with a boardstate of Sefris, Reveillark, Viscera Seer, Doomed Necromancer, Radiant Solar, and Glen Elendra Archmage. In addition to all that, I also had Ashen Rider out, which could have removed anything problematic that I couldn't counter.
That meant I could functionally counter any noncreature spells for the game:
--Sac Glen to counter, trigger Sefris, Venture 1.
--Glen returns with Persist, trigger Radiant Solar, Venture 2.
--Sac Glen to counter.
--Sac Reveillark and have another 2-power creature in the yard, or sac Sefris as well. Reveiilark trigger, returning Glen and something else. Trigger Radiant 2x, Venture 3 and 4.
--Trigger Sefris to reanimate Reveillark.

Now that I think about it...this could have gone infinite. Sorry for taking so long to close things out, fellas!

yeti1069
Posts: 1178
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago


[*]Truthfully, I should probably be adding more free, repeatable sac outlets, but I want to try some of these cards out.
[*]Cutting Cyc Rift seems like blasphemy, but I'm not sure I want to free up some space to try some other stuff, and I just played a game where I never needed it, and another where, even if I'd had it, it wouldn't have done anything but delay my death a turn.
[*]The Primordials are cute, but I have a number of exile effects, and not THAT much destroy removal, no wheels, and no mill, so I have few ways of influencing what is in my opponents' yards.
[*]Ronom comes out for the more flexible Cathar, but I'm going to miss the two power that can be reanimated with Reveillark
[*]Considered cutting Phantom Steed, but I haven't gotten to use it much, and it did a decent job protecting a key creature to set up a board wipe one time. And I do have some high value ETB creatures to take advantage of.
[*]Cutting Thorough Investigation may be a mistake, but it only makes 1 clue/turn, and I have no other ways to make clues. It also requires me to attack, which isn't always advantageous. I like the extra draw, and the instant speed venturing, but I think it's slow and asking a lot for very little.
[*]I had been considering dropping Archfiend of Ifnir, since I didn't feel like I had enough discard to support it, but then I wiped the board and could have kept doing so in a game last night, so...it stays in.

Chromaticus
Posts: 308
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Chromaticus » 2 years ago

I like Zombie Infestation and Master of Death a lot for your build.

The former enables Sefris of the Hidden Ways on your off turns, and gives you another free discard outlet for your reanimating strategy. The latter is a bit like Squee, Goblin Nabob giving you more fodder to pitch.

Ghostly Pilferer feels like a must. Draw a card every time someone plays a commander and another discard enabler.

Another fatty to consider that checks some boxes for this strategy: Angel of the Ruins. Cycling to trigger Sefris of the Hidden Ways and a very potent removal option to reanimate.

Immovable Rod is my secret sauce removal spell. One of the most politically effective, yet innocuous cards I've encountered, and it has extra venturing utility in your deck. Shuts down commanders hard, and even hits lands!

Edit: You already added Angel! I think you'll find it awesome :)

One more contender, though it's getting into the same space Timeless Dragon.

yeti1069
Posts: 1178
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Thanks for the feedback!

I don't feel like I have enough cards in hand to use Zombie Infestation efficiently. Until I really get an engine going I always feel like I'm light. Zombie Master helps a bit, but it's not otherwise a great card (although the surveil is good here). I have mine in my Varina deck and was considering dropping it where it serves largely the same role. May try it here.

Pilferer I should try. It's in my Yuriko deck but I don't really need it there.

Is the Rod good? I can see how it could be used effectively, but it seemed so slow.

As for Timeless Dragon, I don't think I would run it. Eternal Dragon I'm only barely interested in, but being able to bring it back to cycle again hold some allure if I have nothing to do otherwise. Timeless comes back once as a token which doesn't synergize at all here.

I am thinking that Grimoire of the Dead might be worth trying out.


Chromaticus
Posts: 308
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Chromaticus » 2 years ago

Think of Rod as the ultimate rattlesnake / deal-making utility belt.

I've said things like - that's not coming at me, right? Right before combat with 4 mana open. But I think that the retroactive / punishment implication can be just as strong. If a player knows that you can untap and neuter their best permanent, they're less likely to mess with you.

Threat of activation that incidentally gives you value should you have mana lying around at the end of the turn cycle in your dungeon deck.

I know this is less of a control deck, and more of a mid-range Solar Flare kind of shell, but as an answer, the rod can deal with any non-stack based combo in the game, and does not give them the opportunity to recur their piece.

If you truly need to keep something locked down, that only lasts until you remove the player - then you get to target your next most scary thing.


yeti1069
Posts: 1178
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Really need to assess the cuts. The Primordials are kind of iffy: sometimes they're total bombs, and others total duds. Could probably stand to drop them, as I was intending, but just had a couple games where Sepulchral made some big plays. In one game, its Intimidate was super relevant, while also bringing in a clone and a card advantage engine. In another, I had Radiant out in a 5 player game, which made reanimating the Primordial totally free, since all the creatures entering sent me through a dungeon start to finish. Diluvian hasn't done anything for me yet in this deck, but I've had it in a couple of others where it made for some big plays.

User avatar
toctheyounger
Posts: 3984
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Good to see you getting some feedback :)

I came through to recommend a couple things and I can see they're covered off to some degree:
Angel of the Ruins is truly gross. I've been running it in Bruna and its been every bit worth the add.
Master of Death i see got consideration here. Much like in Varina seems like it could be a slow grindy value engine.
I see Victimize here, would something like Whisper, Blood Liturgist or our old friend Apprentice Necromancer fit? The Apprentice alone gives you 3 triggers whenever you need em.

It doesn't seem you're going too far into sacrifice territory here so that might be a tough sell, but Reassembling Skeleton is one I've always enjoyed as a utility fodder piece.

How do you feel about Sheoldred btw? I love the flavor personally but I've always found her way too slow to truly shine. Most of the time I've cast her id have been better off with a Fleshbag Marauder or a Plaguecrafter.
Malazan Decks of the Fallen
| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

yeti1069
Posts: 1178
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Thanks.

Whisper I keep putting into decks then cutting for being kind of slow and clunky. Here, I don't know that I often have enough creatures to sac, and putting more than one into the yard at a time doesn't gain value. I'll have to see how often I'd have spare creatures to feed to her.

Apprentice I've been considering.

Right now I'm not running enough sacrifice to include something like Reassembling, and with more of a focus on discarding I'd prefer something like Master of Death that returns to hand.

Sheoldred is fantastic here! I will almost never be casting it, and if it sticks around for a turn cycle pays for itself with the reanimate (or can instant speed reanimate it at EOT to limit interaction before that). Then, if no one has an answer, it's mega value over time.

yeti1069
Posts: 1178
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Had a game tonight where I copied Midnight Pathlighter with Phantasmal Image early and was able to venture 6x per turn without utilizing Sefris' trigger. Actually didn't have much to reanimate, and if I'd really thought about it, should have gone through one of the other dungeons instead of Lost Mine. Tomb of Annihilation would have allowed me to discard and sac to put important stuff in the yard. Need to remember that I can use that dungeon as a discard or sac outlet if I'm in a pinch. So used to just looping Lost Mine that I missed some value plays.

Still, got to loop Ashen Rider a few times, Reveillark did its thing in not only triggering and reanimating by casting for Evoke, but then helped me recover after a board wipe. Noxious Gearhulk helped me recover from some serious best down--my life was down to 13 at one point, but 2 trips through Lost Mine, Gearhulk gaining 5, and Cloudblazer coming back got me back up to 22.

Overall, the deck has been fairly slow to get going, and largely flies under the radar, avoiding removal until it jumps out ahead and becomes the archenemy. I think some of the cheaper venture creatures I have coming will help get things started sooner (I hope, anyway).

Also definitely need mor sac outlets.


yeti1069
Posts: 1178
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Chromaticus wrote:
2 years ago
I like Zombie Infestation and Master of Death a lot for your build.

The former enables Sefris of the Hidden Ways on your off turns, and gives you another free discard outlet for your reanimating strategy. The latter is a bit like Squee, Goblin Nabob giving you more fodder to pitch.

Ghostly Pilferer feels like a must. Draw a card every time someone plays a commander and another discard enabler.

Another fatty to consider that checks some boxes for this strategy: Angel of the Ruins. Cycling to trigger Sefris of the Hidden Ways and a very potent removal option to reanimate.

Immovable Rod is my secret sauce removal spell. One of the most politically effective, yet innocuous cards I've encountered, and it has extra venturing utility in your deck. Shuts down commanders hard, and even hits lands!

Edit: You already added Angel! I think you'll find it awesome :)

One more contender, though it's getting into the same space Timeless Dragon.
Put in Ghostly Pilferer and the one time it showed up so far, it was pretty good! Drew 2 cards off of it, used it to discard 3 cards to trigger Sefris. Liked it so much, that I also added Dream Trawler as a way to draw cards and discard cards

yeti1069
Posts: 1178
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Going to try Dimir House Guard as a sac outlet, that can also discard and tutor for a relevant piece (removal, Pathlighter, Solemn, Glen Elendra, Grimoire of the Dead), and can be a decent blocker, or an attacker with evasion.

yeti1069
Posts: 1178
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

So, even in the face of Armageddon, but no creature wipes, this deck just kept on chugging. Had Sefris, Hana Pashar, and Nadaar out along with Viscera Seer and a looter, so I was able to keep sending creatures to the yard, venturing, and reanimating, while also making 2 treasures per cycle. Ended up going through about half my deck, and never really got pressured at all.

Admittedly, it was kind of a weird table with 1 low-mid deck, one Tymna/Ravos deck that definitely had some strong cards and abusive stuff in it, but they got kind of mana screwed in the beginning, and never got back up to full power after the lands were blown up, and the Emeria deck that blew up the lands, but then didn't have a follow-up, piloted by someone new to Magic (kind of a mean deck for a new player, with Painter's Servant and MLD...). Surprised to never see an actual board wipe.

Again, if there's little to no interaction, this deck just CHURNS.

Sharpened
Posts: 193
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Sharpened » 2 years ago

So I've been researching and theorycrafting with Sefris, because the deck seems fun. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get any games with it in yet.

I'd love to see your current list.

Here are some of the things I've come across as I've been working on the list:

I find I fit creatures into 3 basic categories:
[*]Dungeon Support
[*]Graveyard/Triggering Sefris
[*]Big dudes to Reanimate

Now, there are creatures that can fill multiple roles (think Angel of the Ruins being able to discard itself and trigger Sefris, as well as being a big reanimate target), and that kind of overlap is fantastic, but the three categories are useful as a simplistic starting point.

Dungeon Support - It doesn't seem like you need to go overboard with this. Sefris of the Hidden Ways does a lot of work.
Radiant Solar is obviously insane. It may be the best Venture card
Midnight Pathlighter is a must
Barrowin of Clan Undurr has a payoff that seems worthwhile.
Hama Pashar, Ruin Seeker also seems like a worthwhile payoff
Nadaar, Selfless Paladin and Triumphant Adventurer seem worthwhile, as they trigger on attacks
Immovable Rod and Dungeon Map seem ok and worth using, but more about the other effects and venture being secondary with them.

Are there other cards to let you venture that seems worthwhile?
Obviously, you don't want to play draft chaff like Clattering Skeletons or Shortcut Seeker. I still can't believe how bad they made Dungeon Descent .
Thoughts on Acererak the Archlich? He requires you to go through a specific dungeon, but can make you venture by himself. He seems like a decent enough payoff once he sticks, but in a reanimator shell, if I want a quasi-Grave Titan, wouldn't I just play Grave Titan?
Is Yuan-Ti Malison good? I mean, it seems fine on turn 2. But later game, I am going to want to attack with other creatures and then it seems weak.
Thorough Investigation seems fine, although a bit like a slow value engine that can also venture, because I don't really see clue support playing well with the rest of the deck.
Eccentric Apprentice is the only other card I really consider, as it can turn a formidable blocker into a feeble bird, but I don't think it's worth it. Maybe if you were going to supplement the deck with a blink theme, then ETB Venture is more valuable.

Graveyard/Triggering Sefris - "Whenever one or more creature cards are put into your graveyard from anywhere, venture into the dungeon. This ability triggers only once each turn."
So the key things are the flexibility to trigger on other peoples turns, because you can only trigger once a turn, and the "from anywhere". While sacrifice effects are useful, I think the real engines are from the hand and from the library.
I'm loving the looters:
Merfolk Looter and Thought Courier are the 2 drop ones and Obsessive Stitcher seems unexciting, but having the second ability as a backup I guess is worthwhile.
I considered Jace, Vryn's Prodigy // Jace, Telepath Unbound and Looter il-Kor as other 2 mana looters, but I worry that Jace will shut off his own ability to loot and I won't get enough use out of his planeswalker side.
The Shadow creature is limited to your own turn for trigger Sefris, so that had me concerned. I think something like Tomebound Lich is better if you are going to go with one of them, as it can play defense, which the il-kor can't.
One thing that did stand out was Teferi, Master of Time is just an insane looting engine for this deck. As is Tortured Existence, a card that I think is normally overrated, but with Sefris is just nuts.

Another thing that caught my eye was mana critters that can trigger Sefris.
Deranged Assistant and Millikin seem like accelerants that interact well with what the deck wants to do. Speeding up is nice. Added note: Since these guys produce , they pushed me in the direction of using Ravnica Signets, which I likely would have done anyway.

Those are the main self mill. Surveil works, as you know, with Doom Whisperer being a worthwhile card for this deck. Unfortunately most other surveil isn't good enough with a few exceptions worth considering:
Connive // Concoct seems versatile enough to maybe try
Dakkon, Shadow Slayer is repeatable kill that also Surveils
Lazav, the Multifarious is one I kind of like. I think he lets you do interesting things.
Master of Death is worth playing as a Squee, Goblin Nabob for your looters. The fact that he can surveil if you ever want to put him in play is gravy

Big dudes to Reanimate - I think this comes down to whatever you find fun.
Just some things I noticed:
Sun Titan is a common choice and came with the precon, and since Barrowin of Clan Undurr doubles up on that ability, I decided to go all in with it. That meant adding both Cavalier of Night and Sevinne's Reclamation to my list, as I think they both compliment a lot of the other pieces of the deck.
You may be running enough wizards to make Galecaster Colossus an interesting reanimate target. Maybe not, but an interesting and unusual choice.
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter was another unusual choice that I was considering, because he can be repeatable kill and a sacrifice outlet if needed. Not sure it's good enough, but thoughts.
Otherwise, I try to think back to what my Legacy Reanimator deck liked to bring back, before Griselbrand became the default option. Any of the 3 on color Praetor's seem nuts, but most of the other things have been surpassed by new goodies like Nezahal, Primal Tide, Archon of Cruelty, and Serra's Emissary. I do think there is something to be said for some of the classic angels - either Avacyn, Angel of Hope or Akroma, Angel of Wrath are good options.

Other miscellaneous thoughts
Incarnation Technique seems strong. It's reanimation that can trigger Sefris, gives your opponents no window to remove one of the 5 cards it mills with hate before it reanimates it. Also, the political aspect of doubling it seems great, as well as it can be very useful if you are playing things like Grimoire of the Dead or the Primordials to soup up your opponents grave as a bonus.

I'm sure you haven't posted an optimized land base, but Path of Ancestry should be in your deck before Arcane Sanctum. It's effectively the same card with bonus scrying, and will trigger more often than you expect.

River Kelpie might be a nice little card advantage engine, especially if you add a few flashback spells to go along with the Gravebreaker Lamia - things like Forbidden Alchemy and Faithful Mending seem worth running anyway, so there have to be more worthwhile flashback spells that fit.

Anyway, I'm still working on and tuning my list. Trying to figure out how much is the right amount of disruption for my opponents, but I'll have something to post soon. I'd love to see your updated list and hear your thoughts.

yeti1069
Posts: 1178
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Here are the most recent changes (and I'll update the decklist):

I'm not sure what other changes I had made that there are more adds than cuts here, but the deck is coming out to 100 cards...

Cutting Cyclonic Rift to reduce the saltiness a little, and try to keep the deck a little more casual, although that may be a lost cause, given how resilient it can be. Likely to come back in.
Thought Courier was cut simply to make room for an addition that I wanted to try out, but will likely come back to the deck. That said, I have definitely had games with 1 or more of the looters sitting in my hand because I had other things I wanted to spend mana on. I don't love how slow they are to come online.
The other cuts were due to just not impressing me much, being too slow, or being too clunky.

As for the adds, so far Spark Double has been AMAZING copying Sefris, Radiant Solar, or Midnight Pathlighter.
Archon of Cruelty has been okay. It's a significant threat, but not hitting everyone was a little awkward--there were times I needed to pressure one player's life but another's board state/hand, and had to chose where to send the Archon, and another game where it felt especially mean.
Dream Trawler has been FANTASTIC! It flies, it gains life, it draws cards, it protects itself, and it can trigger Sefris at instant speed repeatably. Ghostly Pilferer is basically in the same category, but is less of a threat and draws fewer cards.
Nadaar has been solid. Barrowin and the Adventurer haven't shown up for me yet.
Oriq Loremage has been a strange card to run. So far, in the games it has come out, I've been ahead against a table wanting to duke it out, so I was reluctant to activate him much. Certainly had two games where I could have assembled the Reveillark/Karmic Guide combo. Other than that use, it's been a terrific toolbox enabler, fetching what's needed at the time. May end up dropping the Lamia at some point, either for a cheaper version of the effect, like Entomb, or just clearing space for something else. I like that it has lifelink, and a decent body, but it doesn't do a lot, and I'm not running many cards that can be cast from the yard to take advantage of its other text.
Cathar Commando is mostly an upgrade from the Ronom Unicorn, and has made a couple of solid plays since coming in.
Dimir House Guard this should probably be Yawgmoth, Thran Physician actually, but I wanted to try this out, and my Yawgs are in other decks that make better use of them at the moment. It can tutor for removal (Utter End, Ravenous Chupacabra, Hostage Taker) Venture enablers (Midnight Pathlighter, Barrowin), control (Glen Elendra Archmage), mana (Solemn Simulacrum), or value (Spark Double, Grimoire of the Dead, Oriq Loremage), but does so very slowly, and telegraphs. So far it has only shown up once, but it came in handy getting an Utter End.
Konrad has done some work in pinging down the table when the deck is humming, and helps put pressure on even when it's spinning its wheels a bit.

yeti1069
Posts: 1178
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Thanks for commenting!
Sharpened wrote:
2 years ago
So I've been researching and theorycrafting with Sefris, because the deck seems fun. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get any games with it in yet.

I'd love to see your current list.

Here are some of the things I've come across as I've been working on the list:

I find I fit creatures into 3 basic categories:
[*]Dungeon Support
[*]Graveyard/Triggering Sefris
[*]Big dudes to Reanimate

Now, there are creatures that can fill multiple roles (think Angel of the Ruins being able to discard itself and trigger Sefris, as well as being a big reanimate target), and that kind of overlap is fantastic, but the three categories are useful as a simplistic starting point.

Dungeon Support - It doesn't seem like you need to go overboard with this. Sefris of the Hidden Ways does a lot of work.
Radiant Solar is obviously insane. It may be the best Venture card
Midnight Pathlighter is a must
Barrowin of Clan Undurr has a payoff that seems worthwhile.
Hama Pashar, Ruin Seeker also seems like a worthwhile payoff
Nadaar, Selfless Paladin and Triumphant Adventurer seem worthwhile, as they trigger on attacks
Immovable Rod and Dungeon Map seem ok and worth using, but more about the other effects and venture being secondary with them.

Are there other cards to let you venture that seems worthwhile?
Obviously, you don't want to play draft chaff like Clattering Skeletons or Shortcut Seeker. I still can't believe how bad they made Dungeon Descent .
Thoughts on Acererak the Archlich? He requires you to go through a specific dungeon, but can make you venture by himself. He seems like a decent enough payoff once he sticks, but in a reanimator shell, if I want a quasi-Grave Titan, wouldn't I just play Grave Titan?
Is Yuan-Ti Malison good? I mean, it seems fine on turn 2. But later game, I am going to want to attack with other creatures and then it seems weak.
Thorough Investigation seems fine, although a bit like a slow value engine that can also venture, because I don't really see clue support playing well with the rest of the deck.
Eccentric Apprentice is the only other card I really consider, as it can turn a formidable blocker into a feeble bird, but I don't think it's worth it. Maybe if you were going to supplement the deck with a blink theme, then ETB Venture is more valuable.

Graveyard/Triggering Sefris - "Whenever one or more creature cards are put into your graveyard from anywhere, venture into the dungeon. This ability triggers only once each turn."
So the key things are the flexibility to trigger on other peoples turns, because you can only trigger once a turn, and the "from anywhere". While sacrifice effects are useful, I think the real engines are from the hand and from the library.
I'm loving the looters:
Merfolk Looter and Thought Courier are the 2 drop ones and Obsessive Stitcher seems unexciting, but having the second ability as a backup I guess is worthwhile.
I considered Jace, Vryn's Prodigy // Jace, Telepath Unbound and Looter il-Kor as other 2 mana looters, but I worry that Jace will shut off his own ability to loot and I won't get enough use out of his planeswalker side.
The Shadow creature is limited to your own turn for trigger Sefris, so that had me concerned. I think something like Tomebound Lich is better if you are going to go with one of them, as it can play defense, which the il-kor can't.
One thing that did stand out was Teferi, Master of Time is just an insane looting engine for this deck. As is Tortured Existence, a card that I think is normally overrated, but with Sefris is just nuts.

Another thing that caught my eye was mana critters that can trigger Sefris.
Deranged Assistant and Millikin seem like accelerants that interact well with what the deck wants to do. Speeding up is nice. Added note: Since these guys produce , they pushed me in the direction of using Ravnica Signets, which I likely would have done anyway.

Those are the main self mill. Surveil works, as you know, with Doom Whisperer being a worthwhile card for this deck. Unfortunately most other surveil isn't good enough with a few exceptions worth considering:
Connive // Concoct seems versatile enough to maybe try
Dakkon, Shadow Slayer is repeatable kill that also Surveils
Lazav, the Multifarious is one I kind of like. I think he lets you do interesting things.
Master of Death is worth playing as a Squee, Goblin Nabob for your looters. The fact that he can surveil if you ever want to put him in play is gravy

Big dudes to Reanimate - I think this comes down to whatever you find fun.
Just some things I noticed:
Sun Titan is a common choice and came with the precon, and since Barrowin of Clan Undurr doubles up on that ability, I decided to go all in with it. That meant adding both Cavalier of Night and Sevinne's Reclamation to my list, as I think they both compliment a lot of the other pieces of the deck.
You may be running enough wizards to make Galecaster Colossus an interesting reanimate target. Maybe not, but an interesting and unusual choice.
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter was another unusual choice that I was considering, because he can be repeatable kill and a sacrifice outlet if needed. Not sure it's good enough, but thoughts.
Otherwise, I try to think back to what my Legacy Reanimator deck liked to bring back, before Griselbrand became the default option. Any of the 3 on color Praetor's seem nuts, but most of the other things have been surpassed by new goodies like Nezahal, Primal Tide, Archon of Cruelty, and Serra's Emissary. I do think there is something to be said for some of the classic angels - either Avacyn, Angel of Hope or Akroma, Angel of Wrath are good options.

Other miscellaneous thoughts
Incarnation Technique seems strong. It's reanimation that can trigger Sefris, gives your opponents no window to remove one of the 5 cards it mills with hate before it reanimates it. Also, the political aspect of doubling it seems great, as well as it can be very useful if you are playing things like Grimoire of the Dead or the Primordials to soup up your opponents grave as a bonus.

I'm sure you haven't posted an optimized land base, but Path of Ancestry should be in your deck before Arcane Sanctum. It's effectively the same card with bonus scrying, and will trigger more often than you expect.

River Kelpie might be a nice little card advantage engine, especially if you add a few flashback spells to go along with the Gravebreaker Lamia - things like Forbidden Alchemy and Faithful Mending seem worth running anyway, so there have to be more worthwhile flashback spells that fit.

Anyway, I'm still working on and tuning my list. Trying to figure out how much is the right amount of disruption for my opponents, but I'll have something to post soon. I'd love to see your updated list and hear your thoughts.
I never activated Dungeon Map, and didn't like that it was sorcery speed.
Been meaning to slot Immovable Rod back in to try out, but didn't have something I was ready to cut for it.
I suspect Barrowin may not be doing enough to warrant including. We'll see.
Acererak would be a combo piece, or a value piece as basically "Pay 3 mana to venture. Cast only as a sorcery." I don't think I need it as a value piece, and I'm not running any of the combo pieces to go the other way.
Radiant Solar is the strongest card in the deck.
I got a copy of Yuan-Ti Malison, but I'm not going to run it. It's cheap, yes, but it's also slow, and likely too weak to bother later in the game.

Teferi, Master of Time is definitely a card I have my eye on.
Lazav and Dakkon look like they're kind of low impact. Dakkon might be decent, since it's repeatable surveil and removal, but the deck isn't set up to necessarily protect planeswalkers, which makes them rather fragile. Lazav is going to be pricey/slow to copy anything worthwhile, and many of the best cards are ETB effects, which he won't get.

Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter I've run in some other decks in the past, while he was always strong, he often felt unnecessary, and that was in a deck full of token fodder to feed him. Here, the deck either doesn't have many creatures out to sac (or that it wants to sac), or has such a board presence that his removal is kind of irrelevant. Plus, he's pretty expensive to cast, and there are much stronger reanimation targets. The Cavalier falls largely into the same category, except it also asks whether we have any relevant creatures of 3 CMC or less in the yard. I'd rather play less conditional removal (see Chupacabra).

I'd been trying card]Master of Death[/card] in my Varina, Lich Queen deck for a bit, which also cares about having junk cards in hand to discard to fuel the commander, cares somewhat about surveil, but also cares about it being a zombie body. And I feel like it doesn't quite make the cut there. Here, there have been occasions where having some junk to discard would have been helpful, but not many. Most of the time, I'm discarding something I want in the graveyard. It would make Nezahal even stronger, though. Ultimately, it's a consideration, but one that I think has some better cards ahead of it in line.

Avacyn, Angel of Hope would be decent here, but I don't want to turn off the ability for the table to impact my engine even more than the deck already does, and I'm not running enough boardwipes to really leverage the indestructibility to my benefit.
Serra's Emissary is something I've debated cutting, since it can be such an overpowering effect, but it has come in clutch a few times, and I have a foily prerelease copy that should be in a deck, somewhere, with this being the best spot at the moment.

Grimoire of the Dead is almost certainly getting cut in the near future. It's slow, telegraphs your plan, and I've found the discard to be an unpleasant cost to pay. So far, I've had it out in one game and got 2 counters on it over 4 turns, because I didn't have something to chuck one turn, and didn't have the mana to activate it on another. Then someone dropped a Rest In Peace and my deck got turned off.

The Primordials I've liked a lot in other decks, but I'm not running enough removal, counters, discard, or mill to really fuel them, and they become very reliant on what my opponents are doing. Too many times, they've been kind of dead cards, so I cut them, but could see them coming back in at some point.

River Kelpie just doesn't do enough. I ran this for a while in my Marchesa, the Black Rose deck, where I had multiple creatures leaving my graveyard every turn cycle, and it felt kind of slow there at 5 mana, and requiring the deck to be functioning in order to draw cards. I changed that out to ETB draw, or LTB draw, which are easier to make happen. Here, before the deck is really chugging, it MAYBE draws an extra card every other turn cycle. When the deck starts humming, it MAYBE draws 1 extra card per turn cycle, and by the time the deck is completing dungeons more than once per cycle, drawing an extra card on each of those is probably irrelevant. And, as in Marchesa, it does basically nothing if the chips are down.

I've stayed away from self mill here, because I'm not currently running many ways to take advantage of milling non-creatures, and the deck doesn't gain any advantage from milling more than one creature at a time, so blind mill is mostly just a detriment.

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6276
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 2 years ago

So I was thinking about this deck and I wonder if you could use more discard outlets than sac outlets. More Putrid Imp and Oblivion Crown and less of the sac outlets? Not that you don't want sac outlets too but it seems like you really would like both.

At 35 lands you may want to add a couple landcycling dudes beyond angel. Fellwar Stone doesn't really align with your gameplan much and is risky, so I'd consider swapping that for say, Twisted Abomination or Jhessian Zombies or something.

Krensh
Posts: 14
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Krensh » 2 years ago

Unrelated to deck construction, what are you doing for dungeons? Like do you have a set plan for "I always do this one first, then this one, then the last one," or do you just adjust based on the board state? Really curious what your insight is as to dungeon completion/repetition.

yeti1069
Posts: 1178
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
So I was thinking about this deck and I wonder if you could use more discard outlets than sac outlets. More Putrid Imp and Oblivion Crown and less of the sac outlets? Not that you don't want sac outlets too but it seems like you really would like both.

At 35 lands you may want to add a couple landcycling dudes beyond angel. Fellwar Stone doesn't really align with your gameplan much and is risky, so I'd consider swapping that for say, Twisted Abomination or Jhessian Zombies or something.
Also have the dragon for land cycling. Haven't had an issue with mana yet at all. The mana rocks have been very helpful so far. I'd consider Twisted Abomination, but it's a pretty mediocre card.

Right now I think I have 2 free sac outlets and a land or two, alongside 2 free discard outlets, 2 looters, and a couple other ways to discard, so I already have more discard than sac. Could probably use a repeatable looter, like Unfulfilled Desires. I've found the free discard outlets very effective, but I've often been kind of short on cards, so I don't want too many of those.
Last edited by yeti1069 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

yeti1069
Posts: 1178
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Krensh wrote:
2 years ago
Unrelated to deck construction, what are you doing for dungeons? Like do you have a set plan for "I always do this one first, then this one, then the last one," or do you just adjust based on the board state? Really curious what your insight is as to dungeon completion/repetition.
Image

I've just been running through Lost Mine. Had one game where I should have swapped to Tomb of Annihilation to use it as a sac and discard outlet. I haven't ever really considered the 3rd Dungeon. I've found that each of the rooms in Phandelver have been useful (to pokken's comment about mana, making treasure every other turn has helped as well), and the drain has been relevant. To say nothing of completing a dungeon in 4 rooms. 7 rooms just isn't worth going through until the deck is completing dungeons multiple times a turn, and then it probably doesn't have the mana to take advantage.of the exile and cast options in the long dungeon anyway. May make sense to go through Tomb at that point to start hammering the table a bit, but it's hard to give up strictly advantageous benefits.

To expand on that a bit:
Tomb of Annihilation is all downside for everyone. In this deck, it may have some utility as a way of allowing us to discard a card or sacrifice a creature to trigger Sefris...if we somehow were able to venture into the dungeon some other way. Not spectacular, but I definitely had a game where this would have been the right call. Otherwise, the payoffs for going through this dungeon are pretty underwhelming. It may also be correct to run through here if you NEED something reanimated in 3 ventures rather than 4, but the cost is HIGH (note that it could also setup the reanimation target with the discard or sacrifice).
[*]Each player loses up to 5 life
[*]Each player discards up to 1 card.
[*]Each player sacrifices up to 1 artifact, creature, or land.
[*]You get a legendary 4/4 with deathtouch.

Dungeon of the Mad Mage is undesirable in another way: Sefris asks us to complete dungeons for his effect, and this is the longest of the three to complete. In terms of benefits for going through it, we're looking at:
[*]Gain 1 life.
[*]Scry 1, 2, and 3.
[*]Create a treasure or disable a creature for a turn (compare to -4/-0 from Phandelver)
[*]Exile two cards that you can play, but have to do so at that moment (timing restrictions still apply), and you have to pay for them.
[*]Create two crappy tokens.
[*]Draw 3 cards and cast one for free.

The final room is pretty good, especially with some big bodies we may hit and get to cast for free, but it takes 7 rooms to draw 3. All the scrying is nice, but I not amazing, especially when we could be running any number of cards that give repeatable scrying or surveil. I don't like Runestone Caverns, since we're often going through dungeons on other people's turns and can't drop lands if we run through there when it isn't our turn. The deck also has a fair number of high CMC cards that might get lost when going through here, with the alternative of making tokens we don't care about. I also don't like the choice between stopping a creature from attacking or making a treasure.

Lost Mine of Phandelver is as fast to go through as Tomb of Annihilation when you're not 0-for-4ing yourself, and has upside to every room. Typically, I'm going Cave Entrance --> Mine Tunnels --> Dark Pool (or Fungi Cavern if there's something I'm concerned with swinging at me/blocking my swing, and my turn isn't coming up immediately)--> Temple of Dumathoin.
[*]Scry 1.
[*]Create a treasure or make a crappy token.
[*]Each Opponent loses 1 life and you gain 1 life or a creature gets -4/-0 for a turn.
[*]If you made a crappy token, you can put a +1/+1 counter on a creature (never happening).
[*]Draw a card.

Notably, this room can also win the game with Dark Pool, either fairly, by draining everyone when at low life from some other means, or as the payoff to infinite venturing. This deck can do that with Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Sefris + a free sac outlet. To sequence this (assuming no ventures yet this turn, not in a dungeon yet and one of KG or R in hand with the mana to cast, and the other in the graveyard or hand with mana):
1. Sacrifice Sefris, trigger: Cave Entrance
2. Cast Karmic Guide, returning Reveillark.
3. Sacrifice KG.
4. Sacrifice R to return Sefris and KG-->returns R.
5. Sacrifice KG, trigger: Mine Tunnels.
6. Sacrifice Sefris.
7. Return to step 4 and repeat.

That's (nearly) infinite ventures, scry, treasure (mana)or goblin tokens (junk), life gain/drain (or +1/+1 counters and junk), draw (the limiting factor), and Create Undead reanimation triggers. Typically, you should have more cards in your library than opponents have life. If not...well, hopefully you can get Ashen Rider, Archon of Cruelty, or Syr Conrad into play. The Rider can exile 2 permanents per reanimation, which may allow you to exile the board of whoever has so much life before you deck yourself and then beat them down normally; the Archon can tack on another 3 life loss per reanimation cycle to speed up the life loss (now you can kill someone with 4x the number of cards left in your deck); Syr Conrad will hit everyone for 3 or more per cycle, which should also help with anything besides psuedo-infinite lifegain.

yeti1069
Posts: 1178
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Had a game last night where I used Tomb of Annihilation to finish off an opponent at low life before they could untap on their turn, and used it to hasten through a dungeon to reanimate in 3 moves rather than 4. Saccing a creature and an artifact wasn't so bad, but the land too hurt. The 4/4 token is also pretty unimpressive for commander. Really would only do that again if I were truly desperate.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Decklists”