Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

Sefir wrote:
3 years ago


Behold the unholy child of Sudden Substitution, Chaos Warp and Possibility Storm.
I love it.
See, the tricky part about this card is that I have a Mardu deck that plays a bunch of counterspells because that's funny in Mardu. So I have to try it in 2 decks.

And then Toralf, God of Fury is a bananas card on both sides. This set just went from zero for Zedruu to red-tastic fun times in a few hours.

Edit: btw, cast a couple spells, castMirror of Fate, top 3 cards are lands, 4th card Mind's Desire, cast another spell, counter it with Tibalt's Trickery, cascade into Mind's Desire, win the game!
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Post by DrKillenger » 3 years ago

How does Toralf work with dealing damage to indestructible creatures? Let's say for arguments sake that an opponent had a Stuffy Doll, if we ping it for 2 does that then trigger Toralf for 1? Would each subsequent 1 damage we do to the Doll also trigger Toralf?

Also, I can't even begin to imagine how much damage he could do with something like Blasphemous Act

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Post by Wallycaine » 3 years ago

DrKillenger wrote:
3 years ago
How does Toralf work with dealing damage to indestructible creatures? Let's say for arguments sake that an opponent had a Stuffy Doll, if we ping it for 2 does that then trigger Toralf for 1? Would each subsequent 1 damage we do to the Doll also trigger Toralf?

Also, I can't even begin to imagine how much damage he could do with something like Blasphemous Act
So, the relevant bit here is that Toralf, God of Fury says "other than that permanent." So you can't point that extra 1 damage back at the Stuffy Doll, since it's the same permanent that triggered the ability. ...That said, assuming you're dealing with a larger initial amount of damage, I don't see any reason you couldn't bounce it to something else, and then take the (probably reduced) amount and deal it back to the Stuffy doll again, this time being entirely excess damage. Given two indestructible creatures controlled by opponents, you could bounce it back and forth eternally triggering whatever relevant abilities are out there. And yes, he will explode many players given an even vaugely populated boardstate and Blasphemous act.

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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

Yes to all of that. If someone were to donate 2 indestructible creatures and give Toralf, God of Fury lifelink, for example, you could gain infinite life. And if those creatures were Stuffy Dolls, you could eliminate another player for each Stuffy Doll you're able to donate. And if you had Brash Taunters instead, you might not be gaining all that life, but one opponent and you could hold the table hostage. Sakashima on Toralf and you can dead the whole table yourself.

Personally, I got distracted trying to figure out the math on hypothetical Toralf, God of Fury/Arcbond plays, cause like thinking about that too much'll make you dizzy with algebra.

And like, I've got 8 ways to trigger Toralf at the moment, but that's not even that crucial because there an entire other side of the card that shoots things itself and bounces back to hand to retrigger most of my cast triggers before zapping something else. Like, self-bouncing non-creature spell was exactly what I needed to make Jeskai Ascendancy/Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Crystalline Crawler deterministic, and while this takes a solid 10-mana upfront cost before it's infinite, it does it. There's a good chance I can find a 4-card solution to the front side as well, and then we're really cooking.
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Post by Sefir » 3 years ago

From now on, the official name for the Toralf/Nin/Taunter interaction for a bunch of dmg and card draw, will be called TNT. :halo:
(I will see myself out....)
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Post by DrKillenger » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago

Personally, I got distracted trying to figure out the math on hypothetical Toralf, God of Fury/Arcbond plays, cause like thinking about that too much'll make you dizzy with algebra.
Yeah this is where my mind immediately went (hence asking about multiple iterations of 1 damage on a Doll, I was trying to figure out Arcbond lol) and it made my brain hurt too much to continue that train of thought.

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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

You know, I think I may have to concede: I can't come up with a good way to combo the front of Toralf, God of Fury, in exactly 4 cards, with mostly just the cards in the deck. Two indestructible creatures on the other side And Toralf sounds so easy when you first consider it, but you need 2, and they need to be under someone else's control, and you need Toralf, and you need another card that makes the loop actually accomplish something (my favorite option being a Sakashima'd Toralf), and you need non-combat damage to overkill the creatures. Short of adding specifically the card Ajani's Presence alongside Toralf and hoping a pair of sufficiently small creatures are across the way, I haven't found my 4-card combo on the front, and we're not into any card's that say Ajani since the time he stole Zedruu's title.

But like, the front of the card is a big pile of novelty cheese, in my opinion, Toralf cheeses people a lot like Repercussion cheeses people, which is an old favorite card of mine that doesn't fit Zedruu's style, but a double-faced card can get away with that. I think sufficiently finite is an acceptable situation, when it can definitely end games with things like Firestorm or Arcbond, And there are lots of cards that can go sufficiently finite with Toralf to end games immediately.
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Post by Sefir » 3 years ago

OMG. The new red God!!
Birgi, God of Tales // Harnfel, Horn of Abundance!!
Everyone talks about the ritual side, but look at the Horn!!! Feeds Mirror of Fate!!! Works as a discard outlet for Barren Glory! And if you have a number of cards in hand, I bet that it can dig amazingly on its own in a pseudo-Mindmoil effect. There MUST be some combos with it (or even the God side) here!!
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

Sefir wrote:
3 years ago
OMG. The new red God!!
Birgi, God of Tales // Harnfel, Horn of Abundance!!
Everyone talks about the ritual side, but look at the Horn!!! Feeds Mirror of Fate!!! Works as a discard outlet for Barren Glory! And if you have a number of cards in hand, I bet that it can dig amazingly on its own in a pseudo-Mindmoil effect. There MUST be some combos with it (or even the God side) here!!
Good assessment. People all excited about the front, and I'm like "I've played Kykar in here before, and the extra red mana was rarely game breaking, and that was a lot more versatile a trigger than just making red on a trigger."

But the back half is wild. It enables Barren Glory , it works like Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn if you're willing to go all in, it lets you pretend draw a pile of cards before a Time Spiral and suddenly have like 20 cards to play with your 6 mana. I wouldn't necessarily list feeding Mirror of Fate as a major upside, since the exiled cards are effectively random, but having Mirror of Fate mostly takes away the biggest drawback of Harnfel. The one card it doesn't quite play nice with is Mindmoil, but that's just competing in the same space, something few other cards do. I'm excited to try it out.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
I've played Kykar in here before, and the extra red mana was rarely game breaking
I feel personally attacked.

On a serious note (is anything serious in commander tho?) I think people have this weird aversion to discarding cards. I agree the horn is the more powerful half in most of the decks I play: Kykar, Rielle, the Everwise, Squee, Goblin Nabob or any mono red list really. It's sneaky card advantage that can be heavily abused, and I for one look forward to abusing it with the likes of Cathartic Reunion/Goblin Lore + Underworld Breach.

A good One with Nothing is sweet for Barren Glory, for sure! Maybe you can find a way to make the horn combo with something like Surly Badgersaur/Brallin, Skyshark Rider/Glint-Horn Buccaneer and two other pieces?
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
I've played Kykar in here before, and the extra red mana was rarely game breaking
I feel personally attacked.

A good One with Nothing is sweet for Barren Glory, for sure! Maybe you can find a way to make the horn combo with something like Surly Badgersaur/Brallin, Skyshark Rider/Glint-Horn Buccaneer and two other pieces?
I just meant in this deck, not a knock on Kykar in general. Or as a general. Ya know, generally.

Lifelink and Drogskol Reaver would be another two pieces, btw.

Also, what about this thing:
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Post by Sefir » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
Also, what about this thing:
I was like ''Wait! do we double our permanents with Leave//Chance?'' before I realized that you copy only 1 of the targeted permanents.... :(

Still, it can have the usual ''clone'' applications in the usual Precursion Golem/Arcbond combo and value with other cards in the deck. I am unsure if it deserves a spot though.
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

Sefir wrote:
3 years ago
I was like ''Wait! do we double our permanents with Leave//Chance?'' before I realized that you copy only 1 of the targeted permanents.... :(

Still, it can have the usual ''clone'' applications in the usual Precursion Golem/Arcbond combo and value with other cards in the deck. I am unsure if it deserves a spot though.
I will dig in and see what nonsense I can put together, but the 2 immediate things I'm thinking about:

Possibility Storm/Knowledge Pool: target a thing, copy it, get a different spell too that might also target a thing and copy it.
Venser, Shaper Savant: target Venser, make a Venser, bounce the spell.
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Post by Wallycaine » 3 years ago

Hmm... It's an interesting card, definitely, but I'm not sure it fits in this deck without a lot of work? Looking at the most recent version of the deck, you've only got 12 cards that trigger it, and of those only 6 are "meant" to be pointed at your own things. There's stuff like Firestorm, where while you theoretically can get a trigger off it, it will usually just replace the dude you burned to a crisp. That said, there's definitely build around potential there, and it might make some end games easier when you can easily duplicate creatures instead of having to jump through hoops.

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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

Wallycaine wrote:
3 years ago
Hmm... It's an interesting card, definitely, but I'm not sure it fits in this deck without a lot of work? Looking at the most recent version of the deck, you've only got 12 cards that trigger it, and of those only 6 are "meant" to be pointed at your own things. There's stuff like Firestorm, where while you theoretically can get a trigger off it, it will usually just replace the dude you burned to a crisp. That said, there's definitely build around potential there, and it might make some end games easier when you can easily duplicate creatures instead of having to jump through hoops.
If I might guess which 6 you think are meant to target my things, I'd list Mirrorweave, Arcbond, Banishing Knack, Leave // Chance, Role Reversal, and Echo Storm, but I definitely target my own things with Chaos Warp and Catch // Release regularly. I target Swans of Bryn Argoll and now Brash Taunter with Electrodominance, Shatterskull Smashing, and Firestorm, but all of those damage spells could be run at low damage to make a cheap clone. Smashing in particular can simultaneously remove a threat and ping Inferno Titan for 1 damage.

The only real whiff of the 12 is Jeskai Charm. But also, I'm incredibly greedy, and am 100% imagining copying lands and enchantments with things like Catch and Role Reversal.
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Post by Wallycaine » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
Wallycaine wrote:
3 years ago
Hmm... It's an interesting card, definitely, but I'm not sure it fits in this deck without a lot of work? Looking at the most recent version of the deck, you've only got 12 cards that trigger it, and of those only 6 are "meant" to be pointed at your own things. There's stuff like Firestorm, where while you theoretically can get a trigger off it, it will usually just replace the dude you burned to a crisp. That said, there's definitely build around potential there, and it might make some end games easier when you can easily duplicate creatures instead of having to jump through hoops.
If I might guess which 6 you think are meant to target my things, I'd list Mirrorweave, Arcbond, Banishing Knack, Leave // Chance, Role Reversal, and Echo Storm, but I definitely target my own things with Chaos Warp and Catch // Release regularly. I target Swans of Bryn Argoll and now Brash Taunter with Electrodominance, Shatterskull Smashing, and Firestorm, but all of those damage spells could be run at low damage to make a cheap clone. Smashing in particular can simultaneously remove a threat and ping Inferno Titan for 1 damage.

The only real whiff of the 12 is Jeskai Charm. But also, I'm incredibly greedy, and am 100% imagining copying lands and enchantments with things like Catch and Role Reversal.
Yeah, hence the quotation marks on "meant". My larger concern, even beyond the how many are regularly used on your own dudes, is just how few cards triggering it that is. 12 out of 99 feels like a pretty low number to justify including an otherwise blank 3/3 for 4, though the payoff can obviously be very strong. If there's a deck that can pull that off, it's probably this one, but it might require tilting your spell slots a little further in the direction of stuff that combos with them.

Edit: Specifically, Sudden Substitution, Vanish into Memory, and Political Trickery strike me as relatively recent cuts that might need a second look if you slide this card in. Political trickery and substitution in particular strike me as strong combos, where you get to give away your creature/land, while still retaining a copy (and even retriggering etbs while you're at it).

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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

Wallycaine wrote:
3 years ago
Yeah, hence the quotation marks on "meant". My larger concern, even beyond the how many are regularly used on your own dudes, is just how few cards triggering it that is. 12 out of 99 feels like a pretty low number to justify including an otherwise blank 3/3 for 4, though the payoff can obviously be very strong. If there's a deck that can pull that off, it's probably this one, but it might require tilting your spell slots a little further in the direction of stuff that combos with them.

Edit: Specifically, Sudden Substitution, Vanish into Memory, and Political Trickery strike me as relatively recent cuts that might need a second look if you slide this card in. Political trickery and substitution in particular strike me as strong combos, where you get to give away your creature/land, while still retaining a copy (and even retriggering etbs while you're at it).
To be fair: I've played Swans for years (a decade? what? geez!) with way fewer enablers.

But I do appreciate what you're saying.
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Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

I did some mathing today. Partially because I don't have a Heliod yet (he's a little pricey) and might try running Archangel instead.
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3 years ago
Brash Taunter/Heliod, Sun-Crowned/Golden Guardian/Crystalline Crawler
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Use Heliod's activated ability to give both Taunter and Guardian lifelink.
Use Guardian's activated ability to make it fight Taunter. They hit each other, triggering Heliod twice with lifelink.
Put two counters on Crystalline Crawler.
Taunter deals 4 damage to an opponent, trigger Heliod a 3rd time. Put the counter on Golden Guardian to offset the damage from fighting the Taunter.
Use the counters on Crawler to fight again, dealing 4 damage to an opponent each time through, until only you remain.
If you have Emeria's Call instead of Brash Taunter, you can make Guardian and Crawler indestructible and fight forever the same way, but the only result of the loop is infinite life, so who cares.
With this one I wanted to figure out what'd happen with the Archangel. Using Jeskai Charm as the source of lifelink, Brash Taunter quickly gets bigger and outpaces Golden Guardian pretty quickly. I think I got three total activations of Guardian before it died but gained 35 life and took a total of 27 from opponents.

So that could be a value play since that put six +1/+1 counters on each of my creatures plus the +1/+1 from Jeskai Charm, and then could go to combat. But it's certainly not an infinite unless the Guardian was indestructible, plus it was 5 cards instead of 4.

Note: Even with just lifelink on both and no +1/+1 from Charm -- three fights. Even with lifelink on only one of them and no +1/+1 from Charm -- three fights.


tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
Brash Taunter/Clone/Arcbond/way to copy Arcbond
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Have 2 copies of Brash Taunter. This can be Sakashima, Saheeli, Mirrorweave... pick your favorite clone mechanism.
Target both of them with Arcbond. This can be Bonus Round, Narset's Reversal, Eye of the Storm... any way to copy Arcbond.
Deal any amount of damage, which conveniently enough Taunter does to itself by fighting a creature.
From there, the damage bounces back and forth between the 2 forever, and would draw the game if not for everyone dying from Arcbond damage. You also get machine gunned down, but ideally the Brash Taunter ability to damage opponents is enough to make sure all the opponents go down before you do.
If your clone mechanism is Mirrorweave, this combo needs to be executed on the next players turn, or they will get to resolve their Brash Taunter triggers before yours and they will aim them directly at you.
Particularly regarding the following quote, I thought I'd figure out the math on what this can actually shoot down, assuming no lifelink and not using Mirrorweave.
You also get machine gunned down, but ideally the Brash Taunter ability to damage opponents is enough to make sure all the opponents go down before you do.
The initial fight causes two Brash Taunter (BT) triggers and two Arcbond (AB) triggers, so one is able to stack it to resolve the BT triggers first. After that, each resolution of an AB trigger brings everybody down by 1 and triggers the other BT+AB (and you end up never resolving one of the two initial AB triggers). Since AB reduces everybody by 1, as long as the BT trigger that resolves before the AB trigger that would kill you kills the last opponent, the only thing that matters is the sum of BT trigger damage you can do and the amount of each opponent's life total that is in excess of yours (roughly).

If each other player has an equal or lower life total, you'll shoot them down easy. No need to do math in such cases. Otherwise you have up to your life total + 1 BT damage you can do that has to result in each opponent at 0 and you at 1. So if you're at 20, subtract 19 (life - 1) from each opponent's life total and if the sum of what's left is equal to or less than 21 (life + 1), you can do it. There may be a better way notate/remember that.
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

lyonhaert wrote:
3 years ago
The initial fight causes two Brash Taunter (BT) triggers and two Arcbond (AB) triggers, so one is able to stack it to resolve the BT triggers first. After that, each resolution of an AB trigger brings everybody down by 1 and triggers the other BT+AB (and you end up never resolving one of the two initial AB triggers). Since AB reduces everybody by 1, as long as the BT trigger that resolves before the AB trigger that would kill you kills the last opponent, the only thing that matters is the sum of BT trigger damage you can do and the amount of each opponent's life total that is in excess of yours (roughly).

If each other player has an equal or lower life total, you'll shoot them down easy. No need to do math in such cases. Otherwise you have up to your life total + 1 BT damage you can do that has to result in each opponent at 0 and you at 1. So if you're at 20, subtract 19 (life - 1) from each opponent's life total and if the sum of what's left is equal to or less than 21 (life + 1), you can do it. There may be a better way notate/remember that.
I was tempted to put together a bunch of algebra that simplifies down to easy number, but it's annoyingly more complicated because Arcbond damage isn't going to deal the same damage to every player. Our life total needs to be greater than sum of all positive differences between opponents' life totals and our own, minus 2.
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Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
...because Arcbond damage isn't going to deal the same damage to every player.
How so?
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

lyonhaert wrote:
3 years ago
tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
...because Arcbond damage isn't going to deal the same damage to every player.
How so?
Players with lower life totals can die first to Arcbond even without Taunter damage aimed at them, which means they don't contribute to the calculation at all. If the opponents all have less life, you don't need to calculate. If the opponents all have more life, the calculation becomes simple arithmetic after some algebra:
Total Damage = Arcbond + Taunter; substitute in the calculations for how much of each type of damage we can do.
Total Damage = [our life - 1]*[# of opponents] + [our life + 1]; rearrange terms a bit
Total Damage = [our life - 1]*[# of opponents + 1] + 2; then redefine the second brackets
Total Damage = [our life - 1]*[# of players] + 2.
Which if we take a 4-player game, means we can do damage to opponents equal to 4*(current life total) - 2.
Or if we want to rearrange to answer "how much life do I need to win", you get:
Our life = (sum of opponents' life totals - 2)/(# of players) + 1
So to beat 3 opponents with a total of 102 life, we'd need 26 life yourself, so we can do 25 Arcbond damage to each and 27 Brash Taunter damage, for 102 total.

BUT all that would be wrong if our life total is in the middle, because any opponent with less that 25 life will die before the last Arcbond and mess up the math. So if the opponents had 102 life because they had 50, 42, and 10 life, the player with 10 would take 10 damage, the other two would take 25 Arcbond damage for 60 total Arcbond damage, and less than 42 Taunter damage to finish the job. So there is no single step equation where you can just plug in all the numbers and call it a day. You have to do it in 2 steps, where the first step is ignoring any player with less life than us. So instead, we'd need:

Amount of life needed to win = (sum of all higher life totals than ours - 2)/(# of opponents with more life +1) + 1

So if we had opponents with 10, 42, and 50 life, and we were at 30 and wanted to know if that was enough, we do:
Is 30 > (42 + 50 -2)/(2 +1) + 1.
Is 30 > 31
Answer is no, we'd need to be at 31 to win that game, so we could do 30 Arcbonds and 32 Brash Taunter damage (12 to the player with 42, 20 to the player with 50) before dying ourselves.

Another perspective is to take out the arcbond damage first, add up the remainder, and compare it to possible taunter damage. Doing [our life -1] arcbond damage to each, so the difference is (opponent's life - [our life - 1]), so if we were to say our life total is u, and an opponent's life is t, and n is the number for opponents, we'd look for:

u ≥ Σ(t - u + 1) - 1, for all values of t > u.

And if you put the example numbers above, you get 30 ≥ 33 which is false again, or 31 ≥ 31, which is true. But again, you can't just shove each players' life total into a single equation and pop out the right answer, it's a multi-step analysis, which means you can't ever condense it to "here's the equation in every instance, do some arithmetic".
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Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

Ah, I see what you mean.
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Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

I've been working on figuring out my swaps for updating, so tracking combos and packages of cards is fun when I'm diverging from the list a bit. I didn't want to end up including something if I wasn't including the rest of its package.
  • Don't have Banishing Knack yet, so I might keep Chrome Mox for now instead of swapping to Lotus Petal, as I know that's to keep a certain combo from being too strong.
  • I'm not running Knowledge Pool because it's a PITA over webcam, so that gets to be a slot for keeping Strionic Resonator or slotting Dissipation Field back in. And I kinda wanted to keep Resonator because I have a nifty-looking foil proxy one. :grin:
  • I've been running Sea of Clouds instead of Skycloud Expanse, so I'm working in Training Center and Spectator Seating, which I think leaves me +1 land compared to your list (not counting MDFCs).
  • If I'm keeping the extra land, I'm going to try running without Vedalken Orrery because it's probably okay for me to have a bit less consistency of flash for the folks I'd be playing against.
  • I also might end up replacing Rest in Peace for that meta, but we'll see. I might still need a graveyard removal piece, though.
  • So far this means I've managed to keep Sudden Substitution, but I like that this slot and what would normally be Pool's slot can be used to possibly run Nahiri's Wrath, Infinite Reflection, etc. So I might make a small pile of such cards and shuffle in two at random prior to games.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

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Sefir
Posts: 234
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Pronoun: he / him
Location: Kavala, Greece

Post by Sefir » 3 years ago

lyonhaert wrote:
3 years ago
[*]Don't have Banishing Knack yet, so I might keep Chrome Mox for now instead of swapping to Lotus Petal, as I know that's to keep a certain combo from being too strong
And also because without the Petal, Cavalier of Dawn has no 4 card combo in the deck. Unlike the Petal, Chrome Mox cannot combo with Kiki, Cavalier and Jeskai Ascendancy. Meaning you can take out the Cavalier too if you do not run the Lotus Petal.
Zedruu the Greathearted 4-Card Combos Puzzlebox
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Dakkon Blackblade Miracles Control
Teneb, the Harvester Pestilence
Soul of Windgrace Loam Balance
Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Saclands
Phelddagrif Hippo Factory Lifegain
Riku of Two Reflections Dragon's Approach
Damia, Sage of Stone Casual Food Chain

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lyonhaert
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Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

Sefir wrote:
3 years ago
lyonhaert wrote:
3 years ago
[*]Don't have Banishing Knack yet, so I might keep Chrome Mox for now instead of swapping to Lotus Petal, as I know that's to keep a certain combo from being too strong
And also because without the Petal, Cavalier of Dawn has no 4 card combo in the deck. Unlike the Petal, Chrome Mox cannot combo with Kiki, Cavalier and Jeskai Ascendancy. Meaning you can take out the Cavalier too if you do not run the Lotus Petal.
Ah, right, because I'd need to put Banishing Knack on a creature other than Kiki-Jiki (probably the original Cav) to be able to repeat the Mox to trigger Ascendancy, and that's 5 cards. Well, I suppose I could have Infinite Reflection in one of these two "wildcard" slots and still be able to make a sea of golems.

I don't really mind some combos being 5 cards for me instead of 4. Mostly I'm hesitant about the Petal because outside of a combo I expect it to just be a 1-mana ritual and done, whereas the Mox can be ramp.
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

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