Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

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Sefir
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Post by Sefir » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
I think a friendly agreement amongst the group that everyone searches up their land for oath while the player before them is in their second main so it's ready for upkeep will help. We'll see.
Tried it. Didn't work. At least in the middle and later stages of the game. There are so many kinds of interactions eot (from effects that can remove the Oath to effects that change the state of each player's library stack) that everyone basically HAD to wait the end of each turn to see if anything happened.

Good luck to you though. The deck idea seems fun and very creative.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Fair point. I hope it works out. My group is pretty good at searching fast, so here's hoping.

Well, I'm really on the fence about Price of Progress. On the one hand, why wouldn't I run a nonbasic punisher in this deck? On the other hand, PoP can conceivably win way too easily, or be a dead card against some mono decks in my meta, or punish me for exchanging my basic for an opponent's sweet nonbasic. I'm swapping it for Vedalken Plotter, which I totes forgot existed.

I also took out three basics for the dual manlands. The deck isn't doing much turn 1, so some taplands are ok, and they enable Role Reversal on creatures, Mirrorweave nonsense, and block → donate.

I'm tempted to include Realmwright to go nuts with high tide and the land untappers, but the only other synergies I see are Ensnare or gifting an opponent with a pseudo Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. It's it worth it?

Edit: also swapping out Shifting Borders for Whims of the Fates because spice is nice. EDIT again: actually, whims is awesome. It's assymetrical thanks to me having 2 empty piles + the Second Sunrises if it goes "bad" + recursion to do it multiple times. It's basically player removal, Barren Glory setup, or it's own wincon.
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Post by Sefir » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
Mind Over Matter would in fact require 3 different cuts.
.....
Nin, the Pain Artist is a three card combo with anything that taps for more than one mana.
.....
How? MOM discards 3 cards to untap Gilded Lotus 2 times and Nin once, tap Gilded Lotus 2 times for 6 mana and Nin activates for drawing at least 4 cards. Sure, but the combo needs a 4th piece with indestructibility for infinite. Probably Flawles Maneuver or Swans of Bryn Argol. Is there something I do not see?
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

Sefir wrote:
3 years ago
tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
Mind Over Matter would in fact require 3 different cuts.
.....
Nin, the Pain Artist is a three card combo with anything that taps for more than one mana.
.....
How? MOM discards 3 cards to untap Gilded Lotus 2 times and Nin once, tap Gilded Lotus 2 times for 6 mana and Nin activates for drawing at least 4 cards. Sure, but the combo needs a 4th piece with indestructibility for infinite. Probably Flawles Maneuver or Swans of Bryn Argol. Is there something I do not see?
Yeah, I was counting on "just play Zedruu". There's a threshold number of cards in hand required to do it, but you can pay for Zedruu, untap Nin, and still draw more cards than you started with. If the mana source is a bounce land, you need to start with like 12 cards in hand. If it's Gilded Lotus, even if Zedruu is in the command zone and costs 6 and you're tapped out, you can kick off the loop with just 6 cards in hand. Make 18 mana, cast Zedruu for 6, activate Nin for x = 10, draw 10. Discard 1 to untap Nin, you can make 21 mana and keep 2 of the new cards, you profit way more than enough to pay for Zedruu even with increasing commander tax each time.
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Post by Sefir » 3 years ago

Got it. Even so, I still count Zedruu as a 4th piece of a combo in my books.
Nin sould stay! :) :) :)
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

Sefir wrote:
3 years ago
Got it. Even so, I still count Zedruu as a 4th piece of a combo in my books.
Nin sould stay! :) :) :)
but, I have too many cards to play! :omg:
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Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

By the way, @tstorm823, are there any other cards that are part of a 'package' with Knowledge Pool? I've been avoiding piloting the deck on webcam too often due to K.Pool being a logistical pain (especially if one makes multiple) - figured I should just swap it out for something else like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker so I don't have to worry about that.
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

lyonhaert wrote:
3 years ago
By the way, @tstorm823, are there any other cards that are part of a 'package' with Knowledge Pool? I've been avoiding piloting the deck on webcam too often due to K.Pool being a logistical pain (especially if one makes multiple) - figured I should just swap it out for something else like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker so I don't have to worry about that.
That makes sense. As seen in the list in the OP, there are a lot of things that synergize with Knowledge Pool in weird ways, but they're mostly coincidental. The only card I'd probably swap out without Knowledge Pool is Echo Storm. I enjoy Echo Storm greatly, but I enjoy almost every clone effect, Echo Storm is in the deck over something like Phyrexian Metamorph largely for what it does with the Pool.
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Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
lyonhaert wrote:
3 years ago
By the way, @tstorm823, are there any other cards that are part of a 'package' with Knowledge Pool? I've been avoiding piloting the deck on webcam too often due to K.Pool being a logistical pain (especially if one makes multiple) - figured I should just swap it out for something else like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker so I don't have to worry about that.
That makes sense. As seen in the list in the OP, there are a lot of things that synergize with Knowledge Pool in weird ways, but they're mostly coincidental. The only card I'd probably swap out without Knowledge Pool is Echo Storm. I enjoy Echo Storm greatly, but I enjoy almost every clone effect, Echo Storm is in the deck over something like Phyrexian Metamorph largely for what it does with the Pool.
That makes sense. I might keep Echo Storm for now for its interactions with Eye of the Storm and Precursor Golem and Phyrexian Metamorph could be the swap with Pool. I wasn't planning to make the swaps to fit Mind Over Matter in with Kiki-Jiki yet, but KJ works with Metamorph better than with Echo. :thinking:
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Well, crap. I missed Faith's Reward when building Zedruu the Landhearted. That'll be in my next card order for sure. I also somehow missed Parallax Tide in my previous order, so between now and then I'll run an extra land ramp spell.

I'm going back and forth on whether something like Pentad Prism or Strionic Resonator is worth finding room for. You have good things to say about both iirc, but with my builds extreme focus on lands, I'm not sure a donation rock is worthwhile. Maybe doubling Zedruu triggers is though.
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Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
I'm going back and forth on whether something like Pentad Prism or Strionic Resonator is worth finding room for. You have good things to say about both iirc, but with my builds extreme focus on lands, I'm not sure a donation rock is worthwhile. Maybe doubling Zedruu triggers is though.
Prism is definitely worth it because it can accelerate the next turn by 2 mana for either casting Zedruu or activating her and thereafter getting the trigger. Even if you're not doing that one-shot acceleration it can color-fix/filter while not losing any mana.

Resonator is definitely handy for Zedruu's trigger, and since that trigger is out of the command zone there's a likelihood the Resonator will not be dead, but you'll probably want to examine the other possible triggers in your deck, too, just in case.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

I feel dumb. Somehow I failed to see prism can ramp twice in one turn.
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
I feel dumb. Somehow I failed to see prism can ramp twice in one turn.
Yeah. It gets you ramped, just with a turn in between. Like Dark Ritual with suspend.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
I feel dumb. Somehow I failed to see prism can ramp twice in one turn.
Yeah. It gets you ramped, just with a turn in between. Like Dark Ritual with suspend.
With that in mind, it seems too good to pass up with Zedruu specifically because of the donation after it has fulfilled its usefulness. My only thought is that in my land-centered version of the deck I might eventually want to stray away from any and all rocks and just utilize land ramp and keep the land count as high as I reasonably can.

With my accidental "discovery" of Faith's Reward the other day to go with Planar Birth and Second Sunrise, I'm strongly considering finding space for some more mass land sacrifice: Fireblast, Pulverize, Mana Seism, Greater Gargadon, Devastating Summons, Walk the Aeons. I have to imagine any of them, except Fireblast/Pulverize maybe, could help set up a Barren Glory win pretty tidily. Especially Aeons, which seems like it could go infinite with some combination of Walking Atlas, Scaretiller, Ghirapur Orrery, or Patron of the Moon. The problem with any of the mass land sac is the blowout potential of course. Silence helps, and maybe I should add more like Aurelia's Fury and Mandate of Peace.

At the very least the land sacrificers are mega rituals as long as I have one of the three Second Sunrises available. Planar Birth would require Turnabout though. I'm also wondering if it's worth finding more loot/discard apart from Leave // Chance and Vanish into Memory, Psychic Vortex, Frantic Search, and Read the Runes to stuff in the deck to turn Planar Birth into a mega land-ramp spell.

I was clued into Phyrexian Devourer recently as a great card to go with Experimental Frenzy to clear lands off the top. It's too bad that it exiles rather than binning the land, but I still think it might be worth it here for a big turn with Phyrexian Devourer + Experimental Frenzy + any number of things, but particularly Shared Fate.

Add on top of all that the fact that, if I am looking more towards saccing lands for value, I might want to include more non-land permanents to donate. Gosh it's such a zany deck and adds/cuts are going to be hard. I've only goldfished it a few times so far, and hopefully I'll get an actual game in with it in the next couple of days. I think it needs a lot of tightening up, but the juice seems to be there.

Edit: I got my first game in with it... Ho-lee crap the deck is goofy/fun/insane.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

I don't mean to take up a ton of your thread's bandwidth to yammer away about Zedruu the Landhearted since it's such a different approach than your list, but I did want to share at least once how bonkers it has been for me thus far. I'm three games in with it, two wins and one loss. The most notable was the game I just played vs Rashmi, Eternities Crafter and Alela, Artful Provocateur:
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It was a very long game, so I'll just share the most salient points. I donated a couple of basics to Rashmi pretty early on since Alela got scary fast with some enchantment anthems and a handful of faeries. Rashmi played a Glademuse on Turn 3 which helped me immensely for most of the game.

In the early to mid game I had a big Realmwright/High Tide/Snap turn to play Oath of Lieges, donate some lands and the oath, and just generally set up for big value. It was around that time that I played Aura Fracture and made it clear to Alela which direction the faerie army better be headed.

Rashmi was doing Rashmi things and had built up a pretty darn big board of flash critters and value stuff like Glademuse and Tatyova, Benthic Druid, but had no way to deal with flyers. Both Rashmi and I were down to something like 17-18 life while Alela was close to 50, so it made sense for me to save Rashmi with a Mandate of Peace after the faerie horde attacked and struck a tentative alliance to deal with Alela. I pulled the trigger on my Aura Fracture after tapping all my lands on my next turn, blew up all of Alela's enchantments which included several Etchings of the Chosen and Spear of Heliod type effects and a Sigil of the Empty Throne, then recovered and ramped big time with a Planar Birth (I had cast Chance earlier and pitched a fistful of basics, plus several discards to hand size). I had Ensnare in hand to deal with the following Alela turn.

I did so and Rashmi took the all tapped Alela out with an Overrun and was herself fearlessly tapped out in the face of my intensely threatening army of Zedruu, Realmwright, and Walking Atlas. I then promptly made one of the single stupidest misplays ever. Zedruu had drawn me something like 20 cards so far this game since I had donated several lands and the Oath of Lieges to Rashmi and we had been playing nice with each other until now. Among the cards I had drawn were Read the Runes and Second Sunrise. I thought saccing all my lands to RtR then bringing them back for a mega ritual and draw spell would be nifty, so I did. . . but promptly sank ALL my mana into instead of holding back for the Sunrise. . . Ugh. . . I'm not very smart sometimes. So I had a full grip and like 4 tapped lands (a rav bounce and Temple of the False God among them) but decided not to concede just yet.

I took a big hit, but got to untap. I cast Knowledge Pool as a last ditch effort and hit nothing of note except for. . . Rashmi's Coastal Breach! So that happened, and I also managed to get a Hedron Crab out. Rashmi had to take a turn or two to rebuild and I was able to get Aura Fracture, Walking Atlas, Oath of Lieges, and Isolated Watchtower into play and start dumping every land I possibly could into play with an eye to pulling off another mass land sac and reanimation and milling Rashmi out with Hedron Crab since her deck was around half gone. Rashmi blew up the Knowledge Pool with a Reclamation Sage since it only had junk in it at this point, and built up a board that threatened lethal the following turn.

I scryed on upkeep and, wouldn't you know it, there was Mystic Retrieval. I floated all my mana, sacced all lands to Aura Fracture, cast retrieval, and got back Second Sunrise. I got back all my lands with Sunrise then Mirrorweaved everything into Hedron Crab, bringing me up to a total of two crabs. I then had exactly enough mana to flashback Mystic Retrieval for Second Sunrise, sac my lands, cast sunrise, and mill Rashmi out with the landfall triggers. Snazzy.

TL;DR - the deck is derpy and cool, and apparently resilient enough to survive some horrendous misplays. . . with some luck.
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
I don't mean to take up a ton of your thread's bandwidth to yammer away about Zedruu the Landhearted since it's such a different approach than your list, but I did want to share at least once how bonkers it has been for me thus far.
I mean, Knowledge Pool stories are always welcome and encouraged.
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Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

Well, that's probably the last time I toss out an Eye of the Storm just to see what happens. Or at least when there's a Brallin, Skyshark Rider + Shabraz, the Skyshark deck and a Kalamax, the Stormsire deck at the table.

It was hilarious, but somebody used it to go off and win before it even got back around to me. The Smothering Tithe they landed had a lot to do with that.
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Post by Flem1000 » 3 years ago

Hi, long time lurker here, but honestly haven't looked thoroughly through your more convoluted combos, such as the Eye of the Storm, Mind's Desire, Echo Storm, Mirror of Fate combo. After you activate one of the Mirror of Fates in response to the Mind's Desires, you say that there are 2 cards in exile, one of them is Mirror of Fate. How did Mirror of Fate end up in exile? And how did we get the other card? I'm assuming that I missed a Mind's Desire resolving somewhere along the line, but not quite sure where.

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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

Flem1000 wrote:
3 years ago
Hi, long time lurker here, but honestly haven't looked thoroughly through your more convoluted combos, such as the Eye of the Storm, Mind's Desire, Echo Storm, Mirror of Fate combo. After you activate one of the Mirror of Fates in response to the Mind's Desires, you say that there are 2 cards in exile, one of them is Mirror of Fate. How did Mirror of Fate end up in exile? And how did we get the other card? I'm assuming that I missed a Mind's Desire resolving somewhere along the line, but not quite sure where.
That's actually a good catch. That's an error by me I'll have to fix. The way I have it right now, that should say "one of which is Echo Storm". The way it works is that the card Echo Storm is exiled by Eye of the Storm by the time the spell copies are cast out of Eye of the Storm, so if you stack Echo storm to resolve before the non-storm copy of Mind's Desire, you can resolve it to copy Mirror of Fate and then activate Mirror to put Echo Storm back on top of your library, or put both sorceries back on top to make it even easier.

I'll get that fixed, but I also might revert it back to the Rest in Peace version where Mirror of Fate is in factone of the two cards and was exiled when it was sacrificed.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

To be fair with regard to the error, some of the combos make my head hurt and probably deserve their own individual primers :crazy:

I guess that's what makes them awesome though.

EDIT: Hey @tstorm823, have you ever thought about Ignorant Bliss as a way to respond to a Barren Glory upkeep trigger? It's probably not worth it unless you cobble together some other combos with it and that's likely to not be worth it. Still, I'm curious.
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Post by Flem1000 » 3 years ago

I see, that makes sense. So after you resolve the Mirror of Fate trigger, your Echo Storm and Mind's Desire becomes your new library, and now your two Mind's Desires resolve and now you have your entire library exiled, and you can cast Mind's Desire and Echo Storm fra exile for free. So I assume now that you can just put 7 cards back into your library and cast Mind's Desire from exile to cast some stuff for free? You're saying that you can cast all of the cards in your deck for free as many times as you want, but I'm still missing something here..

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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
EDIT: Hey @tstorm823, have you ever thought about Ignorant Bliss as a way to respond to a Barren Glory upkeep trigger? It's probably not worth it unless you cobble together some other combos with it and that's likely to not be worth it. Still, I'm curious.
For Ignorant bliss to work, you need to cast it the end step before your turn. If you cast it before, the cards come back before your turn. If you wait for your upkeep, Barren Glory doesn't even trigger. That being said, it is actually pretty efficient with Leave // Chance, as you can end step Leave everything but Barren Glory, then Ignorant Bliss and pass to yourself. (It is a 3 card win, but it's Barren Glory, so whatever.)

Beyond that, it is a cantrip. It's a synergy card with the wheel effects (particularly the mean half of Temporal Cascade). It can dodge Vanish into Memory's downside. It can respond to discard effects or Mindslaver effects decently. Might be worth a shot. I'd definitely consider if it exiled face up, which would normally be a downside, but it would let me set up Mirror of Fate cards.
Flem1000 wrote:
3 years ago
I see, that makes sense. So after you resolve the Mirror of Fate trigger, your Echo Storm and Mind's Desire becomes your new library, and now your two Mind's Desires resolve and now you have your entire library exiled, and you can cast Mind's Desire and Echo Storm fra exile for free. So I assume now that you can just put 7 cards back into your library and cast Mind's Desire from exile to cast some stuff for free? You're saying that you can cast all of the cards in your deck for free as many times as you want, but I'm still missing something here..
When you loop those two, the storm count goes up fast, so you keep getting more Mind's Desires. So you can put up to 7 cards in from exile and cast them all each loop. The first Mirror of Fate activation exiled your library, so that's all available. Any instant or sorcery you cast is exiled by Eye of the Storm, so they can be rechosen. Time Spiral or Temporal Cascade can shuffle hand and graveyard into library to be exiled by Mirror of Fate. If you really wanted to recast permanents repeatedly, you can Leave // Chance over and over again. You can bonus round so that you get multiple Mirrors per loop and start doing all land mirrors where you Chaos Warp tokens into lands to put every land into play. You know, everything forever.
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Post by Flem1000 » 3 years ago

I get it now, thanks!
That's brilliant

Edit: Oh, I don't wanna be that guy, but I see that in the Arcbond golem combo, you're saying that it deals 44+ damage to each creature and planeswalker, while you mean each creature and player. You're also saying that Throes of Chaos can get any card with cmc less than 3, when you mean cmc less than 4. Of course people can understand what you mean with context, but just so you know that it's there.
Last edited by Flem1000 3 years ago, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
If you wait for your upkeep, Barren Glory doesn't even trigger.
Ah, I see. I thought Barren Glory triggered whether the conditions for the win were in place or not and then just "fizzled" if they weren't. Good to know so I don't embarrass myself in game.
tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
That being said, it is actually pretty efficient with Leave // Chance, as you can end step Leave everything but Barren Glory, then Ignorant Bliss and pass to yourself. (It is a 3 card win, but it's Barren Glory, so whatever.)
Ooh, that's cute, but are you sure it works that way? If you cast it on an end step and it resolves, wouldn't there still be an "end of turn" after it resolves which would return the cards to your hand? EDIT: Sweet, it does work that way → "If you cast this during the End step, you won't return the cards to your hand or draw a card until the next turn's End step."
tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
Beyond that, it is a cantrip. It's a synergy card with the wheel effects (particularly the mean half of Temporal Cascade). It can dodge Vanish into Memory's downside. It can respond to discard effects or Mindslaver effects decently. Might be worth a shot
I'm not running Cascade, but it works with Windfall too and I wouldn't be opposed to running either/both of them and maybe something like Commit // Memory. Vanish is great for me just about every time I play it, so making it even better gets a big thumbs up from me. Most of all though, (assuming the end step triggers work the way we want) (see edit) I like that I can Ignorant Bliss on end step after a big Read the Runes resolves (which would also have to be cast on end step because mana has to be available for Bliss) and sacs everything besides Barren Glory.
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Post by lyonhaert » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
If you wait for your upkeep, Barren Glory doesn't even trigger.
Ah, I see. I thought Barren Glory triggered whether the conditions for the win were in place or not and then just "fizzled" if they weren't. Good to know so I don't embarrass myself in game.
FYI, all of the alternate win conditions that follow the template of "At the begging of <step name>, if <conditions>, you win the game" need the condition to be true in order to trigger at all, and then it must still be true when it resolves. A lot of them are on upkeep, but Biovisionary is end step.



@tstorm823 Do you ever have very solitaire turns just going off and looking for the win combo, or does familiarity help avoid that?

I ended up in a pickle while goldfishing last night with Possibility Storm, 4 copies of Crystalline Crawler (because of flipping Infinite Reflection with limited choices and then flipping other creatures), Jeskai Ascendancy, Rest in Peace, a second Possibility Storm that probably should have been a second Jeskai Ascendancy. After enough durdling on casting stuff in and out of the storm on one particular turn, the creatures were probably big enough from Ascendancy and their own +1/+1 counters that Venser, the Sojourner could have just made them unblockable and that would be that.

I had also flipped Barren Glory and was trying to see if I could pull that off but a lot of instants and sorceries were stuck in exile that I would need for that. I managed to flip Mirror of Fate with Saheeli out, but Temporal Mastery was in the library and I probably got myself stuck without a way to get it.

I probably shouldn't goldfish late at night when I'm starting to get sleepy, because it just breaks my brain. :laugh:
Chainer bbb
"Image"
(rebuild after Geth)
Other
r Lathliss
bw Breena
To-Build Pool
rb Obosh Burn
gw Dromoka

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