Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

[tstorm823]

Having looked at M21 cards, I have decided to play none of them. There are some neat cards in there, but the only thing I gave real consideration to is Terror of the Peaks as the third competitor in with Warstorm Surge and Pandemonium, Terror is more easily copied than the enchantments for sure, but the symmetry of Pandemonium to me is a feature more than a downside, so Imma stick with that one. Opalescence + Mirrorweave my opponents creatures into Pandemonium is fun, and Terror of the Peaks can't do that. And if I ever decided to bring back the Memnite/Dissipation Field loop, Terror can't do that either.

If anyone is seeing something I'm missing, let me know.

[darrenhabib]

Having looked at M21 cards, I have decided to play none of them. There are some neat cards in there, but the only thing I gave real consideration to is Terror of the Peaks as the third competitor in with Warstorm Surge and Pandemonium, Terror is more easily copied than the enchantments for sure, but the symmetry of Pandemonium to me is a feature more than a downside, so Imma stick with that one. Opalescence + Mirrorweave my opponents creatures into Pandemonium is fun, and Terror of the Peaks can't do that. And if I ever decided to bring back the Memnite/Dissipation Field loop, Terror can't do that either.

If anyone is seeing something I'm missing, let me know.

When I read Nine Lives I thought of Zedruu. Wait until its about to pop and hand it over.

[tstorm823]

When I read Nine Lives I thought of Zedruu. Wait until its about to pop and hand it over.

That's funny. I'm not gonna do it, because funny sneaky kill on just one opponent isn't what I want to do, but that is definitely better mean Zedruu tech than a lot of the old go-tos, since it's actually very useful on its own.

[DrKillenger]

There are a few things that stood out to me looking over M21, granted some of them apply strictly to my version of the deck thanks to all the Stuffy Doll shenanigans I shoehorned in:

• Basri's Lieutenant- There has to be a way for this deck to break this card right? It just seems built for combos.
• Ghostly Pilferer- Draws you cards whenever an opponent tries to cast spells through Pool/Storm/Eye, and is a discard outlet for Barren Glory.
• Brash Taunter- Basically strictly better Stuffy Doll makes me very happy.
• Chandra's Incinerator- Directly synergizes with the Doll/Taunter in a great way, and can go absolutely nuts with something like Firestorm, Arcbond, or Mirrorweave.

Nine Lives reminds me a lot of Delaying Shield in how Zedruu wants to use it: let someone beat your face in, then donate it to a third player and let them deal with the results of that. Except while Delaying Shield wont immediately kill someone, it's more than just a one-trick pony since it doesn't get exiled, and it doesn't have a timer like Lives since it gets reset every upkeep. Nine Lives is cute, but too ineffectual for my tastes.

[tstorm823]

• Basri's Lieutenant- There has to be a way for this deck to break this card right? It just seems built for combos.
• Ghostly Pilferer- Draws you cards whenever an opponent tries to cast spells through Pool/Storm/Eye, and is a discard outlet for Barren Glory.
• Brash Taunter- Basically strictly better Stuffy Doll makes me very happy.
• Chandra's Incinerator- Directly synergizes with the Doll/Taunter in a great way, and can go absolutely nuts with something like Firestorm, Arcbond, or Mirrorweave.

Basri's Lieutenant has protection from Mirrorweave, which is an awful awful tragedy. I'm sure its a combo machine somewhere, but I don't think I have the pieces here.
Ghostly Pilferer is interesting, it also gets easy draws from people casting their commander. It could make itself unblockable before transforming into something big and exciting. There are possibilities there.

[DrKillenger]

Basri's Lieutenant has protection from Mirrorweave, which is an awful awful tragedy. I'm sure its a combo machine somewhere, but I don't think I have the pieces here.

Ah %$#%, I was so excited by the rest of the card that I didn't even notice the "Protection from Multicolored" bit. Shame.

Ghostly Pilferer is interesting, it also gets easy draws from people casting their commander. It could make itself unblockable before transforming into something big and exciting. There are possibilities there.

That thought occurred to me as well, I just don't know how reliable/effective a trick that really is with the suite of creatures you have to choose from. Still it's an option, and it's nice to always have those and be aware of them.

What I JUST realized is that Pilferer's draw effect isn't a "may" meaning that if you can donate it to a player and cast infinite spells, even if you're just spinning your wheels and not accomplishing anything by doing so you'll mill someone out.

[Sethala]

What I JUST realized is that Pilferer's draw effect isn't a "may" meaning that if you can donate it to a player and cast infinite spells, even if you're just spinning your wheels and not accomplishing anything by doing so you'll mill someone out.

If I'm understanding the rules for players losing correctly, as soon as you mill someone out you get your Pilferer back, and if you have Zedruu out, you can immediately donate it to another player mid-combo to mill someone else out.

Or just play Mirrorweave on it before playing all the spells to just mill the table all at once.

[tstorm823]

If I'm understanding the rules for players losing correctly, as soon as you mill someone out you get your Pilferer back, and if you have Zedruu out, you can immediately donate it to another player mid-combo to mill someone else out.

Or just play Mirrorweave on it before playing all the spells to just mill the table all at once.

You are understanding the rules correctly. The former is likely to be relevant if you wanted to mill people out over infinite turns. The latter is likely more relevant if you are killing in one big shot with Eye of the Storm.

[tstorm823]

I found a slight awkward tension last night between Mindmoil and Electrodominance, you have to cast Electrodominance without knowing what will be in your hand when it resolves. On the plus side, it's a great excuse to shout "Time Roulette, Go!"

[MeowZeDung]

Bless you Mindmoil. You're the card that keeps on giving, in more ways than one.

[Sefir]

In the deck there was a card that I was always very sceptical about. Swans of Bryn Argoll. They are very good when everything folds, but most often than not, there will be at least 1 opponent who will try to abuse its ability more than I do. So I searched for creatures with simillar abilities and I found Illusory Ambusher. From what small testing I did, I am in love with the cat. Yes, it costs 1 more, has no evasion and it is 1-use only, but it has flash and, more importantly, it's drawing ability affects only me. It can be used both aggressively (instant blocker for the draw) or defensively (put it on board and dare your opponent to attack you - they will not). It still draws a lot from Golden Guardian, Nin or Nahiri's Wrath. It still combos with GG, MOM and Flawless Maneuvre. I cannot use Mirrorweave in response to a Blasphemous Act to take an opponent out by milling (I can, but it will hit the opponent that would be mostly hit by the mass removal anyways and I don't think I would like that), but that was a really corner case scenario (though I can always play the cat itself in response to a Blasphemous Act to draw 13). Thoughts?

[MeowZeDung]

I'm interested to hear what tstorm thinks, but my first pass at this would be that the repeatable value from Swans is just too good. One of the foundational principles of the deck is that it is going to allow everyone to draw more cards; but the Zedruu player is going to benefit from that state the most. From the OP:

Group Hug: I'm not a particular fan of the moniker "group hug" because it gives the impression that I'm being kind, but I don't play Howling Mine for that purpose. I play these things because they rebalance the resource management of the game in a way that benefits me more than my opponents. It's the theoretical inverse of stax: where stax restricts resource development, we expand it. Stax decks are designed to play through their own restriction, winning with cards that would be individually weak against fully developed opponents. A competent hugging deck does the opposite: plays effects that are not efficient or compact because it makes a game state where players have a glut of resources. A normal Commander deck builds with a curve, it wants to play a land and a spell each turn, it wants to have redundancy for consistency's sake, and tutors for even better options. Zedruu plays no tutors, only 34 lands, and a pile of unique 6+ mana effects. It looks bad on the surface, but when drawing 3-4 cards a turn, everyone else has fist fulls of redundant effects that they can't play all of, and Zedruu is developing towards a synergy or combo win safely in hand.

So, Swans lets an opponent or two get some extra value. Yep. But you are getting WAY more value. Illusory Ambusher is great, and you would probably get a full grip from it, but Swans of Bryn Argoll puts you in a position to draw half your deck.

[Sefir]

I am not so sure that Swans can actully help more than Ambusher. A Nahiri's Wrath can draw a billion cards in both cases. The same with Firestorm ona smaller scale. Golden Guardian can be used with Swans only once and that's the case with Ambusher too. Nin can also draw a billion in both cases (and mostly if you draw something like 10+cards you will just try to combo off, not use your mana for extra Nin activations). Pandemonium can be used repeatedly, but believe me, other decks, mosty those with a much greater number of creatures, WILL abuse the Swans-Pademonium much more than you will. And that's it. I consider Swans a card that only brings merit when all other pieces have fallen into place. If they not and the swans are on their own or something, ou can be certain your opponent will benefit much more to the point that it can win their game (Have you ever witnessed a Rielle opponent play a Nahiri's Wrath for 20 to your Swanns? I had). Furthermore, a resolved Ambusher, prohibits your opponents to attack you. Swans challenges them to attack you as much as possible in the hopes that you will eventualy block with it. This is not a place this deck wants to be.

[MeowZeDung]

(Have you ever witnessed a Rielle opponent play a Nahiri's Wrath for 20 to your Swanns? I had)

You're not wrong. I would just suggest that there's not a massive number of decks out there that run things like Nahiri's Wrath, or Firestorm, or Nin, the Pain Artist which really capitalize on Swans. Ambusher and Swans are both great, and I wouldn't fault either selection. In most metas I think Swans is the better option, but in "burnier" metas that include stuff like Torbran, Thane of Red Fell, Judith, the Scourge Diva, Omnath, Locus of Rage, Polukranos, Unchained, etc Illusory Ambusher would obviously be an upgrade.

I suppose it also depends on how many repeatable effects your list runs. For instance, Nin can draw a ton off of swans each turn. Bonus Round plus any of the one shots like Firestorm can draw double the cards with Swans. If you only run the single use burn/damage effects, then yeah Ambusher is probably better.

[tstorm823]

Short response: go for it! Change is fun, and so are Ambush Vipers, I say go get 'em.

There are a lot of considerations around the downside of Swans of Bryn Argoll. First, people don't play enough direct damage. Not a lot of people play Nahiri's Wrath in my experience, not many people even play Lightning Bolt in my experience. So it's very often safe from abuse. Second, even when people can abuse it, they often miss the line. Zedruu is hard to play even when you start the game planning on it, people will absolutely horseblind themselves into their own game plan and not adapt to Zedruu nonsense if they don't have to. Third, sometimes I want people to abuse it, very often the player capable of blasting Swans isn't the immediate threat, and just the presence of Swans will lift a third player to prominence and make those two start throwing resources at one another. And finally fourth, if an opponent is obviously going to benefit more than me, I just don't play it. Swans can stay in my hand against the Jaya Ballard, Task Mage deck.

I personally don't feel Swans is suspect. And it has the big upside that when it's working, it's a draw engine and not a one-shot draw.

But! Illusory Ambusher has upsides well worth considering. It's the best Ambush Viper I've ever played with (I have it in a blue-black control deck, which likely means it never gets tested here, I don't often double up on cards between decks). Your point that if it resolves it's a great rattlesnake is on point, but having flash means you get to sort of decide that for yourself, in a creature light deck you can encourage or discourage people from attacking you at will, depending on if you need the reprieve or the cards more. And in that draw-go control situation, it's just a stellar tool.

So, from the perspective of Zedruu, it's value is sort of going to depend on the sort of decks you play against and the way you play Zedruu. Some games, Zedruu absolutely is the control deck at the table, you get down a flash enabler and play fun police for a while. Sometimes it's the chaos deck, putting nonsense in play and letting things get weird. Sometimes Zedruu happens to hit the right things early and is the aggressor of the game. Ambusher is better in the control game, much worse in the chaos game, and sort of equal to Swans when you're the threat since it's less powerful an engine but you're also likely to draw attacks if people fear you'll end the game and blocking an 8/8 with Ambusher can probably push you over the top. So it may be a person-to-person decision, depending on whether you're the personality to toss out something dangerous and see what happens.

[tstorm823]

but in "burnier" metas that include stuff like Torbran, Thane of Red Fell.

This isn't wrong, a Torbran deck is likely burny and can likely abuse swans, but it seems worth mentioning to anyone reading that Torbran's damage increase and Swans' prevention are both replacement effects, so the controller of Swans gets to pick the order in which they are applied as the player effected by the replacements, and can decide whether to have the Torbran player draw the extra 2 or not.

[MeowZeDung]

Didn't realize that about Torbran! Still, that deck packs mad burn.

Also, Polukranos, Unchained and Gargos, Vicious Watcher exist.

Ruining both swans and ambusher is a good option too

[tstorm823]

Didn't realize that about Torbran! Still, that deck packs mad burn.

Also, Polukranos, Unchained and Gargos, Vicious Watcher exist.

Ruining both swans and ambusher is a good option too

Hey, if you've got the space, more power to you.

[MeowZeDung]

Well, I think I'm going to finally bite and build me a Zedruu deck. I'm always interested in political decks and have never really played one. I've been tooling around with several ideas and below is a first pass at what I'm thinking.

The basic idea is I want to flood the board with lands (mostly basics), so I've got oodles of "put" a land into play stuff, flip lands, ways to get lands in my hand, and things to sac lands for value and get them back with Planar Birth or Second Sunrise, etc. My primary donations will be lands to whichever players I think are furthest behind or that I think I stand to gain the most from schmoozing up to (I can, and will, take 'em back later with Warp World, Parallax Tide, or Leave // Chance, but don't tell them that). I intend to play nice and be as nonthreatening as I can until I'm ready to go ham, or an opponent starts messing with me and earning themselves a Mana Short/Power Sink on their upkeep to erase their turn and send a message to the table.

Shared Fate, a degenerate draw engine, and my opponents' cards are my preferred win con (Fate can also just mill them out if necessary, and use their own draw spells to do it!), but Bonus Round + Price of Progress or Dreadwaters is a nifty way to do it. Several Flood of Recollection effects are in the list to get back Bonus Round, Mirrorweave, Second Sunrise, Ensnare, or whatever other bonkers or oppressive thing I want to do.

I'm heavy several cards in the deck, so I wanted to solicit your feedback and advice. Currently have lands set at 40, and I think going lower might not go well given the deck's gameplan. Anything too stupid going on here? Not stupid enough? Easy cuts or adds? Pitfalls I'm oblivious too? Your thoughts in general and specific are appreciated.

Zedruu Lands

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Zedruu Lands

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander (1)

1 Zedruu the Greathearted

Extra Lands (13)

1 Walking Atlas

1 Thaumatic Compass

1 Surveyor's Scope

1 Treasure Map

1 Planar Birth

1 Dreamscape Artist

1 Oath of Lieges

1 Pendant of Prosperity

1 Second Sunrise

1 Scaretiller

1 Solemn Simulacrum

1 Ghirapur Orrery

1 Patron of the Moon

Chaos (6)

1 Bonus Round

1 Mirrorweave

1 Shared Fate

1 Knowledge Pool

1 Barren Glory

1 Whims of the Fates

Card Selection / Draw / Advantage (10)

1 Gift of Estates

1 Excavation

1 Frantic Search

1 Aggressive Mining

1 Experimental Frenzy

1 Vanish into Memory

1 Psychic Vortex

1 Whirlwind of Thought

1 Leave // Chance

1 Read the Runes

Big Mana (5)

1 Sol Ring

1 High Tide

1 Realmwright

1 Turnabout

1 Mana Geyser

Flash (2)

1 Tidal Barracuda

1 Leyline of Anticipation

Politics, Retribution, & Control (25)

1 Silence

1 Hedron Crab

1 Mandate of Peace

1 Snap

1 Narset's Reversal

1 Flood of Recollection

1 Nin, the Pain Artist

1 Moonhold

1 Aura Fracture

1 Nine Lives

1 Vedalken Plotter

1 Call to Mind

1 Political Trickery

1 Mana Short

1 Fierce Guardianship

1 Goblin Trenches

1 Render Silent

1 Role Reversal

1 Ensnare

1 Engulf the Shore

1 Parallax Tide

1 Mystic Retrieval

1 Temporal Distortion

1 Hour of Revelation

1 Power Sink

Lands (38)

1 Terrain Generator

1 Isolated Watchtower

1 Myriad Landscape

1 Rainbow Vale

1 Emergence Zone

1 Temple of the False God

1 Drownyard Temple

1 Mystic Sanctuary

1 Azorius Chancery

1 Boros Garrison

1 Izzet Boilerworks

1 Celestial Colonnade

1 Needle Spires

1 Wandering Fumarole

6 Plains

12 Island

6 Mountain

Approximate Total Cost:

[tstorm823]

snip

Zedruu lands, eh? Man, this commander really does it all! I like it, I like it a lot.

First thoughts: if your game plan is land donation, Oath of Lieges is sweet. With regards to too stupid, it hurts to say this, but Warp World is probably too stupid. I know it doing math based off permanents you own is neato, but with a solid 3rd of the deck being instants and sorceries, it's gonna dig a hole for you a lot of the time. And Experimental Frenzy + Shared Fate is genius. Price of Progress with From the Ashes has a bit of tension in it, that like I get they're both punishers for nonbasic lands, but if you want to wing with PoP, I'm not sure that's a good pair like that.

As far as cuts, I'm guessing the comprehensive list of land ramp options is too much, and you'll have to figure out which of those is best to keep. Also, Teferi's Ageless Insight strikes me as "new toy you want to play with" more than a strong inclusion, since it has like 7 cards and Zedruu that make it do anything.

Also, I don't see Role Reversal, which both does the land trading trick, while also playing into the "I win with your wincons" theme you've got going with Shared Fate and Knowledge Pool.

[MeowZeDung]

Zedruu lands, eh? Man, this commander really does it all! I like it, I like it a lot.

First thoughts: if your game plan is land donation, Oath of Lieges is sweet.

Indeed! I had no idea Oath of Lieges existed. That's a guaranteed second land drop per turn since I can stack it on upkeep after a donation. Cha-ching.

With regards to too stupid, it hurts to say this, but Warp World is probably too stupid. I know it doing math based off permanents you own is neato, but with a solid 3rd of the deck being instants and sorceries, it's gonna dig a hole for you a lot of the time.

Sigh. You make sense. Darn it.

And Experimental Frenzy + Shared Fate is genius.

Thanks. Aggressive Mining and Excavation also go good with Frenzy since they can clear the top of the library, though Mining only does it once/turn. Frenzy and Mining don't really put a crimp on the deck making it's land drops either, so that's swell.

Price of Progress with From the Ashes has a bit of tension in it, that like I get they're both punishers for nonbasic lands, but if you want to wing with PoP, I'm not sure that's a good pair like that.

I was a bit on the fence about Ashes. It struck me as a nicer version of Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Ruination, etc. and I felt like I really should have some basic land payoff without being "that guy", but I think you're right that it's just not good enough. Since PoP can straight up win the game with the Mystic Retrieval variants or Bonus Round, I'll stick with it.

As far as cuts, I'm guessing the comprehensive list of land ramp options is too much, and you'll have to figure out which of those is best to keep.

Fair. I think it will take some testing to find the ideal ramp count, but I'll start by shedding the clunkier or harder to set up options.

Also, Teferi's Ageless Insight strikes me as "new toy you want to play with" more than a strong inclusion, since it has like 7 cards and Zedruu that make it do anything.

You cut me deep, but you're right. I'll accept that here it's probably "win more". If I'm already drawing a zillion with Read the Runes while saccing X lands plus however much from Zedruu on upkeep, I probably don't need twice that many and could mill myself out.

Also, I don't see Role Reversal, which both does the land trading trick, while also playing into the "I win with your wincons" theme you've got going with Shared Fate and Knowledge Pool.

Egads!

Thanks for the input, I'll edit the decklist in the earlier post so as to not take up your thread with my nonsense. I'll report back after I've picked up cards I don't have and get a couple games with it under my belt.

EDIT: Suggestions implemented. I also cut Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage because the only things he was flashing out that really benefit greatly from the flash were Knowledge Pool and Ghirapur Orrery. Walking Atlas too, but that's hardly a reason to run a whole extra card.

I would have REALLY loved to make Infinite Reflection work since it fits the "beat them with their own stuff" theme, but I just don't think the creature count is there. Cursed nontoken clause. Goblin Trenches + Reflection would have been glorious.

EDIT AGAIN: Well, shucks. How could I forget about landfall given that I'm doing Excavation + Second Sunrise + Flood of Recollection nonsense? Cosi's Ravager, Embodiment of Fury, Hedron Crab, and Roil Elemental are win cons. I mean, I guess there's even a Barren Glory line in there somewhere. Thoughts?

[tstorm823]

EDIT AGAIN: Well, shucks. How could I forget about landfall given that I'm doing Excavation + Second Sunrise + Flood of Recollection nonsense? Cosi's Ravager, Embodiment of Fury, Hedron Crab, and Roil Elemental are win cons. I mean, I guess there's even a Barren Glory line in there somewhere. Thoughts?

I have many thoughts on Barren Glory, and even more emotions. The card's got style. And ramp a bunch, float the mana, sac your lands, donate what is left is a way to clear the board pretty easily. The hard part with Barren Glory is clearing your hand out, but you actually already have an awesome line to be hand/permanent free with Shared Fate and Read the Runes and a lot of mana. So yes, do that. And make everyone else playing blink and tilt their head sideways and then freak out a little.

Hedron Crab could be a decent little engine for you with the recursion you're packing, and then pivot into a win condition if the opportunity presents itself.

Edit: Gosh, Read the Runes is even instant, so with Shared Fate out, you could do something like Mana Geyser, cast Barren Glory, respond with Read the Runes before Barren Glory Resolves, discard and sacrifice everything. That's clean.

[MeowZeDung]

I have many thoughts on Barren Glory, and even more emotions. The card's got style. And ramp a bunch, float the mana, sac your lands, donate what is left is a way to clear the board pretty easily. The hard part with Barren Glory is clearing your hand out, but you actually already have an awesome line to be hand/permanent free with Shared Fate and Read the Runes and a lot of mana. So yes, do that. And make everyone else playing blink and tilt their head sideways and then freak out a little.

Hedron Crab could be a decent little engine for you with the recursion you're packing, and then pivot into a win condition if the opportunity presents itself.

Edit: Gosh, Read the Runes is even instant, so with Shared Fate out, you could do something like Mana Geyser, cast Barren Glory, respond with Read the Runes before Barren Glory Resolves, discard and sacrifice everything. That's clean.

Done. Glory is in. Crab is in. Dreadwaters is out because saccing lands and bringing them back to crab mill is flashier and stupider. Come to think of it, the Price of Progress + Bonus Round or Narset's Reversal OR Flood of Recollection line might be too efficient as well. We'll see. Can't be winning to easily now, can I?

I also cut a land to add Nine Lives, because that's a funny way to exact revenge on someone who scorns my gift giving with an attack or removal.

[Sefir]

Just a note regarding Oath of Lieges. It was a cheap, stellar card in my Zedruu deck, everyone on the table was happy to see it, it was an excellent target to donate and it guaranteed you will never get mana screwed.....
.....however, I was forced to remove it. Making every player on the table search their library at every beginning of their upkeep made the games last immersely longer than I first thought. I took it out and the games went about 25% faster. Some food for thought....

EDIT: I can see Crucible of Worlds or Land Tax in such a list as well.....

[MeowZeDung]

I think a friendly agreement amongst the group that everyone searches up their land for oath while the player before them is in their second main so it's ready for upkeep will help. We'll see.

Yeah, Crucible of Worlds will go in over Scaretiller and Land Tax over Gift of Estates if I ever invest in them.