Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

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tstorm823
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Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

It's got some neat flavor text too.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

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Post by MisterBrennock » 4 years ago

Image

I'll probably test out this card. Not sure what it would replace, as Shimmer Myr's/Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage's flash-enabling is for a different zone so it's not a direct replacement, but getting to peek at your top card could be useful. It does hit more card types as well - just not sure if there's enough need/desire for it alongside the from-hand flash enablers, or if it missing legendary creatures hurts it compared to Raff.

Incidentally, it's also a Monk so you can get an extra scry from Path of Ancestry

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Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

As with lots of things, I'm 100% testing Elsha of the Infinite out as well. I do test out lots and lots of cards. And while I haven't tried the newest artifact with this text, I've been determined to try and find a card I like that lets me peek at the top card of my library. I love doing that. Sphinx of Jwar Isle doesn't do enough. Lens of Clarity does even less. Precognition Field I had some fun with, but it was very mana intensive to get real advantage out of. Experimental Frenzy plays poorly with a gigantic hand and expensive casting costs. Mystic Forge is better topdeck manipulation for me than the Field, but who cares when I draw a ton, and it only gets me artifacts from on top.

This monk is the best of the lot, I think. Any noncreature spell is roughly half the deck. And the flash is actually super helpful, because it lets you do things like cast a mana rock off the top with a Howling Mine trigger still on the stack, and that's actually quite significant.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

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Post by Styrofoam » 4 years ago

Soooo [mention]tstorm823[/mention] , i play an older version of this zedruu deck that i found a while ago on MTG salvation. I thought it would be cool to tell you how I won the game the last two times I played.


First time: Warstorm Surge + Cowardice + March of the Machines + jeskai Ascendancy + Unbender tine + Pentad Prism. Basically, using prism to cast itself, and return it with tine, dealing 2 damage each time.

Second time: Jesai ascendancy again (best card in the deck maybe???) along with Eye of the Storm, march of the machines and Strionic resonator. Under eye was a time Spiral, and a temporal mastery.

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Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

Styrofoam wrote:
4 years ago
First time: Warstorm Surge + Cowardice + March of the Machines + jeskai Ascendancy + Unbender tine + Pentad Prism. Basically, using prism to cast itself, and return it with tine, dealing 2 damage each time.

Second time: Jesai ascendancy again (best card in the deck maybe???) along with Eye of the Storm, march of the machines and Strionic resonator. Under eye was a time Spiral, and a temporal mastery.
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Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

Styrofoam wrote:
4 years ago
First time: Warstorm Surge + Cowardice + March of the Machines + jeskai Ascendancy + Unbender tine + Pentad Prism. Basically, using prism to cast itself, and return it with tine, dealing 2 damage each time.

Second time: Jesai ascendancy again (best card in the deck maybe???) along with Eye of the Storm, march of the machines and Strionic resonator. Under eye was a time Spiral, and a temporal mastery.
I don't know if Jeskai Ascendancy is the best card in the deck, it's definitely great with March of the Machines. Aside from maybe Knowledge Pool, it has the distinction of being a powerful synergy piece that also digs you towards the things it works well with. Especially with Azami, Lady of Scrolls floating around.

Here's a question for you: how many times did you actually cast Time Spiral?
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Post by Styrofoam » 4 years ago

I demonstrated a loop that allowed me to continously take infinite turns, I cast it twice before they realized that i would never pass the turn to anyone but myself at that point. They asked how I planned on killing them, so i fished out barren glory and used the infinite mana time spiral would have given me and explained that I'd donate everything to them with zedruu and pass the turn to myself. They just conceded to that, but thought it was a cool way to win.

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Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

Styrofoam wrote:
4 years ago
I demonstrated a loop that allowed me to continously take infinite turns, I cast it twice before they realized that i would never pass the turn to anyone but myself at that point. They asked how I planned on killing them, so i fished out barren glory and used the infinite mana time spiral would have given me and explained that I'd donate everything to them with zedruu and pass the turn to myself. They just conceded to that, but thought it was a cool way to win.
It definitely is a cool way to win, but my question is more of a measure of the people you were playing with. Some people scoop to a loop like that. Some people have Pacts and Forces that they'd wait to Time Spiral into. And some people don't have the pacts or forces but don't scoop as a bluff so that I have to veer away from that infinite to one that doesn't refresh their options before they scoop. Trying to minimize Time Spiral's against players with free spells can be a fun puzzle too, but man casting 4-5 Time Spirals takes a lot longer than casting infinity of them.
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Post by Styrofoam » 4 years ago

Oh, i finally got to do the Mirror of Fate + Rest in peace + Temporal mastery today.

The best part of the deck is when people who watch ask "wtf do these cards do" then you proceed to take all the turns.

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Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

I've tried a couple of things for real, and then I've goldfished with some of the upcoming cards as proxies. Sadly, my hype is falling on the new things.

I really wish I could get behind Elsha of the Infinite, I really would love a card that lets me peek at my top card to make the cut, but not even this one felt right. The problem with Future Sight is that it only "draws" you cards if you play the top of the deck. Elsha in playtesting seems to "draw" about a card per turn, unless I don't want to play those cards as they appear, and then I'm just playing fancier Sphinx of Jwar Isle. As a point of comparison, Azami, Lady of Scrolls is coming down the same turn, having that one card as an absolute floor, and synergizing with all my untap effects and wizards and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and feels just about right. Elsha I guess has a very high ceiling in the possibility of playing something like Eye of the Storm off the top at end of turn, but Vedalken Orrery already does most of that.

Empowered Autogenerator can potentially make a ton of mana, but the mana cost just lines up very poorly. 4 is already a very crowded mana cost. And the way this thing scales, it wants to be played ASAP, but also wants pieces to untap it, which I don't have if I haven't gotten my card draw going. And then the games it does start making double digit mana, it's situations where I could have untapped any mana rock a bunch of times and managed to pay for everything I'd ever want to cast anyway. I don't think I'll be testing this or Elsha in real games if they don't even feel great goldfishing.

Pendant of Presperity feels like worse Political Trickery goldfishing, but that might be good enough, And I'm obligated to see how people actually behave with it. Maybe people really will activate it. I doubt it, but if we're teamed up against an archenemy by the time I play it, that might be the swing to knock them down a peg. I will be trying this.

Arcane Signet Is an A+ mana rock. It's hard to judge the impact of that, because adding one regular old mana source is a difficult thing to gauge the impact of, but it is a very good mana rock I'd be interested in adding.

And I have gotten a chance to play Cavalier of Dawn in real games and it feels pretty nice. Versatile removal is nice, a biggish body is good, and the secret mode where it zaps itself for a 3/3 plus the recursion ability is very clean. Try it with Phyrexian Metamorph, it makes you feel extra super clever,
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

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Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

Edit: Putting this on top for better visibility. I also got to play Pendant of Prosperity for the first time, and I enjoyed it more than I thought I would. I played it turn 3 as is ideal. I couldn't keep zedruu in play to benefit from it at all, and it didn't get activated until me and the controller had both basically lost, but none of that is the pendant's fault. The reason I enjoyed it was A) it did get activate eventually, and B) when it was on the stack, someone with double blue available asked me who I was targeting, and I got to smugly say "this spell doesn't have any targets" and made him let it resolve without telling him, and then I gave it to him anyway. Which I think was correct regardless. The player who wants to hold up counterspells is also likely tempted by the instant speed ramp and card draw. But I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy making him weigh whether it's worth countering on the off chance I'd give it to the obvious threat player who ended up winning anyway.

Original post below.

This pile is dumb. Last night I turbo flipped Azor's Gateway early with the help of Unbender Tine, so I tapped for 24 red and 24 blue with a white land to spare. My hand was Possibility Storm, Opalescence, Vedalken Plotter, Howling Mine, Turnabout, and Mind's Desire. I figure I'll lead on Possibility Storm and crank out storm count for Mind's Desire. Possibility Storm down, I play Opalescence and hit Thousand-Year Storm. I play Vedalken Plotter and hit Azami, Lady of Scrolls, I tap Azami and draw Dictate of Kruphix, so I play that and hit Barren Glory, I play Howling Mine and hit Mirror of Fate. So here's the challenge:

Given the following: Find a deterministic win. There may be more than one, but I really enjoyed what I found.
tstorm's solution
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Activate Mirror of Fate putting just Temporal Mastery into the deck.
Cast Mind's Desire. Resolve the Possibility Storm trigger to cast Temporal Mastery from the deck for 2 extra turns. Use the storm from Mind's Desire to cast itself, all the storm copies do nothing.
Infinite Alert:Cast Turnabout. Possibility Storm makes it the only card in the library. Thousand-Year Storm makes 3 copies. Untap lands and creatures at least once each. Tap Azami, Lady of Scrolls to redraw Turnabout. Cast Turnabout... continue for infinite mana, infinite storm, infinite Turnabouts. Float infinite mana of every color and then tap down every artifact, creature, and land in play. Cast Zedruu the Greathearted from the command zone, donate every permanent except for Barren Glory, move to an extra turn and win
Usually Zedruu needs like 10 turns and 30 cards deep to find a win condition, but once in a blue moon the stars align for something stupid on turn 6.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

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Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

Someone back on salvation commented on the card Sudden Substitution (which they're using in a Zedruu-esque deck specifically with cards that can lose the game). My response got a bit involved, so Imma paste it over here too.
myself wrote: Sudden Substitution is getting a chance in here. As far as corner cases and fringe interactions, I think this card is more complex than some entire decks I've played. I haven't had enough experience with it yet to gauge the power in my deck, but the intrigue level is off the charts. Being able to trade like a Howling Mine on the stack with a creature in play seems pretty alright. And even better than trading a preordain, I can trade things like Firestorm or Nahiri's Wrath with no targets, or Pentad Prism cast with colorless mana. Or Chrome Mox lets them ramp, but they have to put the card in, and I get split second Naturalize-proof Control Magic.

Split second is already a weird mechanic that have some fringe benefit with Eye of the Storm or Knowledge Pool. Just being able to say "no, I get to use these, stay out for a second is sweet. Then with Thousand-Year Storm out, you can do some creative stacking of triggers to effectively give the spells in the Eye split second (you have to cast the split second spell out of eye last, but then all the spells trigger TYS anyway and you get all the storm copies with split second still on the stack, and then use the copies of Sudden Substitution on the originals cast out of Eye of the Storm and take control of a bunch of creatures. Then if you're like 6 levels deep on shenanigans, you can do things like cast a spell with Sudden Substitution already in Knowledge Pool, then respond to your own spell with another, cast Sudden Substitution out of the pool to steal a creature and give them the first spell, then resolve the original Knowledge Pool trigger to exile the spell anyway.

Precursor Golem is kind of interesting with it. It doesn't trigger the golem, but I can trade 1/3 of my Precursor for a noncreature spell, or trade like 1/3 of an Arcbond for their creature. And while I'm not playing any cards that lose the game at the moment, I can do really fringe things like kill every creature except an Inferno Titan, pump it to 100 power, and then donate a Vanish Into Memory to someone.

But even more thought provoking than all of those interactions with other cards in the deck is the fact that you don't have to control either target. You can use this spell to donate people each other's creatures, or use it as a political redirect on targeted removal. Without playing anything yourself, Sudden Substitution can be killer disruption just by rearranging people's pieces. Things like taking the commander from the player with no other creatures and swapping it for another player's Earthcraft on the stack. With split second. This card is going to be really hard to play optimally, but it's gonna make some sweet blowouts sometimes.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 4 years ago

Why no wild research? I play a sunforger/research package in my zedruu and it's been great overall. The discard at random hurts a lot less when zedruu consistently grips 7-10 after upkeep. Even with only 4 cards in hand, you have 80% odds of keeping what you want, 83% at 5, 86% at 6, 87.5% at 7, 89% at 8, 90% at 9, etc.

I've also gotten a lot of mileage out of solitary confinement as a defensive option. Bonus points if you fetch it with research.
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Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
4 years ago
Why no wild research? I play a sunforger/research package in my zedruu and it's been great overall. The discard at random hurts a lot less when zedruu consistently grips 7-10 after upkeep. Even with only 4 cards in hand, you have 80% odds of keeping what you want, 83% at 5, 86% at 6, 87.5% at 7, 89% at 8, 90% at 9, etc.

I've also gotten a lot of mileage out of solitary confinement as a defensive option. Bonus points if you fetch it with research.
I have never enjoyed Wild Research any time I've played it, even when it works. My favorite situations in Magic, especially with this deck, are when I'm at a do-or-die moment with a pile of options, but none of them are the exact card I need, so I have to find the exact right way to combine the things that I do have into something productive. Tutors in general take that moment and turn it into "well, is there an answer anywhere in your deck? Good, go grab it!" And then Wild Research takes that a step further and says "also, we're gonna play a game of chance now." And because there aren't always redundant answers to fetch and because Wild Research is actually sort of mana intensive, you often won't get a second chance if you fail. So it takes a complicated puzzle and transforms it into a die roll, and I just really don't enjoy that.

And on top of that, the card isn't objectively powerful, 5 mana for your first copy of double strictly worse Gamble isn't great, it takes a bunch of deckbuilding consideration to take advantage of the unique nature of Wild Research, and I'm sure you've got some of that, but my deck is far, far from optimized for the card. I'd need an insane overhaul to make it really shine, and even then, I've played the card successfully in the past and just don't enjoy it. But like, don't let that stop you. I appreciate that packages like a Sunforger package are neat deckbuilding puzzles in their own right. But Wild Research doesn't generate the gameplay that I enjoy.

Same for Solitary Confinement really. I'm just personally more inclined to say "bring it on!" than "you can't touch me, neener neener neener." It's a stylistic decision at heart.
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 4 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
4 years ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
4 years ago
Why no wild research? I play a sunforger/research package in my zedruu and it's been great overall. The discard at random hurts a lot less when zedruu consistently grips 7-10 after upkeep. Even with only 4 cards in hand, you have 80% odds of keeping what you want, 83% at 5, 86% at 6, 87.5% at 7, 89% at 8, 90% at 9, etc.

I've also gotten a lot of mileage out of solitary confinement as a defensive option. Bonus points if you fetch it with research.
I have never enjoyed Wild Research any time I've played it, even when it works. My favorite situations in Magic, especially with this deck, are when I'm at a do-or-die moment with a pile of options, but none of them are the exact card I need, so I have to find the exact right way to combine the things that I do have into something productive. Tutors in general take that moment and turn it into "well, is there an answer anywhere in your deck? Good, go grab it!" And then Wild Research takes that a step further and says "also, we're gonna play a game of chance now." And because there aren't always redundant answers to fetch and because Wild Research is actually sort of mana intensive, you often won't get a second chance if you fail. So it takes a complicated puzzle and transforms it into a die roll, and I just really don't enjoy that.

And on top of that, the card isn't objectively powerful, 5 mana for your first copy of double strictly worse Gamble isn't great, it takes a bunch of deckbuilding consideration to take advantage of the unique nature of Wild Research, and I'm sure you've got some of that, but my deck is far, far from optimized for the card. I'd need an insane overhaul to make it really shine, and even then, I've played the card successfully in the past and just don't enjoy it. But like, don't let that stop you. I appreciate that packages like a Sunforger package are neat deckbuilding puzzles in their own right. But Wild Research doesn't generate the gameplay that I enjoy.

Same for Solitary Confinement really. I'm just personally more inclined to say "bring it on!" than "you can't touch me, neener neener neener." It's a stylistic decision at heart.
That's fair. I personally like toolbox-oriented decks with lots of silver bullets, so I always find the research/forger package overlap quite pleasing. But I understand if it isn't your thing. Variety is the spice of life as they say
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Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
4 years ago
That's fair. I personally like toolbox-oriented decks with lots of silver bullets, so I always find the research/forger package overlap quite pleasing. But I understand if it isn't your thing. Variety is the spice of life as they say
Out of curiosity, do you play Leave // Chance in your Wild Research package? I guess it doesn't work with Sunforger, but it's a card I started using here on a whim and absolutely fell in love with, and it's got some synergy with Wild Research.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 4 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
4 years ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
4 years ago
That's fair. I personally like toolbox-oriented decks with lots of silver bullets, so I always find the research/forger package overlap quite pleasing. But I understand if it isn't your thing. Variety is the spice of life as they say
Out of curiosity, do you play Leave // Chance in your Wild Research package? I guess it doesn't work with Sunforger, but it's a card I started using here on a whim and absolutely fell in love with, and it's got some synergy with Wild Research.
I've never tried it before. Honestly, I'm in favor of tech against removal in theory, but I use sunforger mostly as a source of recurring removal that also smacks for 4. My usual package stands is as follows:
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Post by Eponymous » 4 years ago

You are saying that Kykar hasnt been doing enough if you dont get him early, I haven't tried it yet but Sigil Tracer has caught my eye. Tapping 2 wizards seems pretty steep, but it doesnt care about haste and can be cascaded into.

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Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

Eponymous wrote:
4 years ago
You are saying that Kykar hasnt been doing enough if you dont get him early, I haven't tried it yet but Sigil Tracer has caught my eye. Tapping 2 wizards seems pretty steep, but it doesnt care about haste and can be cascaded into.
Yeah. Kykar is not a good top deck, that's for sure. Or if Kykar does do work drawn very late, it's because I've already got an engine ready. And the couple free tokens you get for casting spells aren't really impactful when there's not a combo engine. It's just a card vacillating between powerful and disappointing, in my experience, and that basically means its like traditional combo pieces: cards you play that do nothing unless you hit the other combo piece and then you win.

Looking at Eldraine so far, I may have a few months without new toys to play with old cards I haven't tried and Sigil Tracer could be interesting to lean into the wizards. It might be a scary teammate with Turnabout though, so I'd be worried about how often Sigil Tracer + 3 other wizards + Turnabout goes infinite.
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Post by Eponymous » 4 years ago

I had the same thought, my initial thought was you have 7 wizards, so getting 4/7 of the wizards in the deck made it sound harder to get out.

But thinking about it, turnabout, sigil tracer, and mirror entity/mirrorweave is a 3 card combo essentially.


I've been loving the discussion with this deck and suddenly have an abundance of free time, so I've been looking for interesting additions to this deck.

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Post by kateodonnell » 4 years ago

Has anyone gotten a chance to test Sudden Substitution in this deck? I've been messing with it in a bunch of decks and I love it. I haven't gotten a chance to play my zedruu though so I'm not sure if it works in this specifically.

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Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

kateodonnell wrote:
4 years ago
Has anyone gotten a chance to test Sudden Substitution in this deck? I've been messing with it in a bunch of decks and I love it. I haven't gotten a chance to play my zedruu though so I'm not sure if it works in this specifically.
See this comment.
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Post by kateodonnell » 4 years ago

lyonhaert wrote:
4 years ago
See this comment.
My interpretation of that comment was a more theory crafting/speculative, I thought Tstorm was talking about possible interactions and not gameplay experiences. Sorry if I was unclear or misinterpreted Tstorm's comment.

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Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

Ah, sorry.
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Post by Eponymous » 4 years ago

kateodonnell wrote:
4 years ago
Has anyone gotten a chance to test Sudden Substitution in this deck? I've been messing with it in a bunch of decks and I love it. I haven't gotten a chance to play my zedruu though so I'm not sure if it works in this specifically.
I'm currently replacing Kykar with it (since Sigil Tracer made too good of a combo) but I havent gotten to try it yet. I'm excited to try it though.

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