Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

[tstorm823]

I'm in love with Share the Spoils, super cool card and people might take our stuff so that's extra donations for Zedruu.
It's like a toned-down Knowledge Pool which I cut for being too chaotic.

At first glance, I thought it was super absurd, but then I properly processed that it's one card per turn allowed and relaxed a bit. Communal Recycle would have been exceptionally dumb. I do love that it's like Knowledge Pool in that if you take other people's things, you replace them with your own, and leave people trapped either playing your cards or doing nothing with it. It also resets with Venser, the Sojourner like Knowledge Pool, it very specifically gives you first dibs when played on your turn, it's pretty great at looking for a land on turn 3... I could go on for a while, and I probably will after all the decks are spoiled.

It's sweet how many communal card engines they're printing at low mana costs these days. 2-drops that dig deep are the gift that keeps on giving.

[PetrusTen]

Hey tstorm! First, thank you for creating this super-detailed primer.

I was inspired by the post and recently compiled this deck on paper. It's ~95% a match to what's listed on MTGNexus as I made small changes, such as adding Memnite, Dissipation field, Chain of Plasma, removing Barren Glory, and a couple other swaps.

I've read the primer top to bottom and plan to skim through the rest of the posts when I can, but I'd appreciate any advice you may have on how to get this deck off the ground. I have a small playgroup and often the match-ups are 1v1. I've not even come close to arranging a win-con. Opponents are very keen to remove Zedruu ASAP and I've had significant color screw issues in several games. For example, in one game I had 3 colorless lands out and a fistful of Jeskai colored spells. Perhaps I should have mulliganed...

Is it your view that this deck was created in mind for 4-player games (I believe this is the assumption for EDH?). If so, do you think it makes sense to work on creating a more consistent mana base, adding lightning greaves/swiftoot for protection, some basic removals/wipes/stax to buy time? Although I wanted a deck that wasn't flooded with all the commander staples, I'm finding it difficult to stay alive long enough to compile a 4-card combo.

Also...do you have any tips on how to combo into combos? I guess I just need to keep playing and study up, but without tutors (and opponents shutting down your draw), it's very difficult to get anything going. For example, today I armchair quarter-backed myself and realized that I could have used Mirror of Fate and either Echo Storm OR Rest In Peace (both I had access to), to begin the Doomsday process. I didn't have the necessary card draw to make it infinite, but with two turns I would have been able to get that accomplished. Out of all the games, I believe this was the closest I came to a combo. In all the other games the deck felt completely stifled with expensive spells or cards that didn't do much of anything on their own or would have opened me up to even worse situations. For example, I could use the bulk of my mana to drop Knowledge pool or Eye of the Storm, but then I need to pass the turn due to lack of mana and basically hand my opponent a silver platter of spells.

Anyway, I was looking for a challenge and crazy combos, but I'm finding it more difficult than anticipated! Appreciate any help.

[tstorm823]

I have a small playgroup and often the match-ups are 1v1. I've not even come close to arranging a win-con. Opponents are very keen to remove Zedruu ASAP and I've had significant color screw issues in several games. For example, in one game I had 3 colorless lands out and a fistful of Jeskai colored spells. Perhaps I should have mulliganed...

Is it your view that this deck was created in mind for 4-player games (I believe this is the assumption for EDH?).

To that last part, I would say yes. I prefer to play at a table of 4. To the underlying question: can this deck play 1v1 effectively? Yes, assuming the opponent is also playing a deck geared toward multiplayer. If you play against an opponent that is tuned for duals, they'll probably either kill you fast or fun police you out of the game. If your opponent is a battlecruisery, kill-the-table-all-at-once sort of deck, you can be fine.

Take advantage of mulligans, and mulligan like you're a control deck. You want a hand with mana and early interaction. That 3 colorless land scenario is really unlikely, but it's definitely possible. I 100% once Political Trickeryd an Ancient Tomb and color screwed myself out of an entire game. If you want more color fixing, I would say step 1 is cutting Reliquary Tower for a multi-colored land.

Although I wanted a deck that wasn't flooded with all the commander staples, I'm finding it difficult to stay alive long enough to compile a 4-card combo.

Honestly, the dirty secret of this deck is that the combos aren't what actually ends most games, and when they do, it's often not necessary to go infinite. You're already heading the right direction...

Also...do you have any tips on how to combo into combos? I guess I just need to keep playing and study up, but without tutors (and opponents shutting down your draw), it's very difficult to get anything going. For example, today I armchair quarter-backed myself and realized that I could have used Mirror of Fate and either Echo Storm OR Rest In Peace (both I had access to), to begin the Doomsday process. I didn't have the necessary card draw to make it infinite, but with two turns I would have been able to get that accomplished.

This is the right thought process. Don't laser in on combos, play to open up your options until a win condition falls into your lap. It might be a 4-card combo, it might just be 6 golems, a Jeskai Ascendancy, and like 12 spells cast in one turn. Especially in 1v1, non-infinite kills are genuinely more achievable.

Out of all the games, I believe this was the closest I came to a combo. In all the other games the deck felt completely stifled with expensive spells or cards that didn't do much of anything on their own or would have opened me up to even worse situations. For example, I could use the bulk of my mana to drop Knowledge pool or Eye of the Storm, but then I need to pass the turn due to lack of mana and basically hand my opponent a silver platter of spells.

I'll be honest with you again, sometimes I just do that. Also especially in 1v1, sometimes you lay down one of those and say "ok, now kill me, or nonsense is coming". That's where flash enablers are a big deal, being able to drop Eye and then untap first is huge. Conversely, in a multiplayer scenario, sometimes it's right to just do nothing even if you never use the mana. The deck does play answers, and leaving that threat up can do more to hold people back than playing a spell would advance your board. This deck is not efficiency or tempo in any conventional sense, you gotta know when to exercise your neutral jing.

Going back a bit, I don't think the answer is going to be things to protect Zedruu. More things to interact, or maybe just different things to interact might help depending on your meta. If you can't stick Zedruu, redundancy is probably better than protection, you can run more asymmetrical card draw in the deck to accommodate for 1v1.

[PetrusTen]

Thanks for the fast response!

To that last part, I would say yes. I prefer to play at a table of 4. To the underlying question: can this deck play 1v1 effectively? Yes, assuming the opponent is also playing a deck geared toward multiplayer. If you play against an opponent that is tuned for duals, they'll probably either kill you fast or fun police you out of the game. If your opponent is a battlecruisery, kill-the-table-all-at-once sort of deck, you can be fine.

Hahaha "fun police you out"...that has been my experience. "Did you REALLY need to EoT tutor that combo when you already owned the board?" Unfortunately, it is generally the former. Many of the decks are "fringe competitive" or high-powered for casual play with Green in the mix. So turn 4 can often mean the opponent has 6-8 mana, is swinging for 10 damage, and next turn will be 20+. As everyone knows how shuffles go with new decks, I almost always have a firestorm in my early hand and am forced to discard to stay alive--LOVE the card, though. This is why I think I may need to resort to stax (generally against my playstyle) to give the deck some viability for 1v1 against aggro.

Take advantage of mulligans, and mulligan like you're a control deck. You want a hand with mana and early interaction. That 3 colorless land scenario is really unlikely, but it's definitely possible. I 100% once Political Trickeryd an Ancient Tomb and color screwed myself out of an entire game. If you want more color fixing, I would say step 1 is cutting Reliquary Tower for a multi-colored land.

Yeah, that was dumb of me to keep the hand. I likely will cut a couple colorless and perhaps some of the bounce lands as they're a little slow. Do you disagree? I know I can trickery/plotter a land and then bounce it back for a bit of tempo, but I don't find that synergy very powerful. I also like that I can use Thespian's to copy a bounce land, but again that 2 cost + tap (3 lands total) is basically burning a turn for more future setup...and YES some opponents do play strip mine :/ I want to include Chrome Mox, but until I have confidence the deck will be viable in my group it's too pricey a purchase.

Honestly, the dirty secret of this deck is that the combos aren't what actually ends most games, and when they do, it's often not necessary to go infinite. You're already heading the right direction...

Very interesting. Are you open to evaluating a few random ~12 card compilations for potential plays? I know this is VERY theoretical, but I'm thinking of how I can practice solo and one idea is that I draw an opening hand, pretend a few turns have gone by and assess what I could do in a real game. Most of my matches I find myself staring at heliod's, brash taunter, saheeli, echo storm or some other combination and I just can't think of anything I can pull off or if I have an idea it will take 2-3 turns of my opponents not attacking/removing my pieces.

I'll be honest with you again, sometimes I just do that. Also especially in 1v1, sometimes you lay down one of those and say "ok, now kill me, or nonsense is coming". That's where flash enablers are a big deal, being able to drop Eye and then untap first is huge. Conversely, in a multiplayer scenario, sometimes it's right to just do nothing even if you never use the mana. The deck does play answers, and leaving that threat up can do more to hold people back than playing a spell would advance your board. This deck is not efficiency or tempo in any conventional sense, you gotta know when to exercise your neutral jing.

To clarify...do you mean that having lots of untapped mana with a Storm out is a potential threat that will keep opponents from coming after you?

That's the challenge with 1v1. You can truly be a non-threat, but the heat is still coming because you're the only target. In a recent game I was basically dead, had mindmoil out, and decided to possibility storm and pass (no more mana). My opponent was baffled by the card so basically did nothing their turn except attack. My turn I stormed into a mirror made and copied possibility storm to double my spells. It was a lot of fun (which is my goal), but eventually I ran out of mana and passed to my opponent whom now understood the card and also received spell doubling. I died soon after. I want to include Vedalken Orrery, but same concern as the Mox comment above.

Going back a bit, I don't think the answer is going to be things to protect Zedruu. More things to interact, or maybe just different things to interact might help depending on your meta. If you can't stick Zedruu, redundancy is probably better than protection, you can run more asymmetrical card draw in the deck to accommodate for 1v1.

Makes sense. I agree this is a better approach.

[jjjrrrgggnnn]

I tend to have to play 1vs1 due to the way my life aligns, and also found it very hard to win any games at first. However the more you pilot @tstorm823's list, the more you learn about its interactions and its hidden strengths, and you'll start to see more and more ways to deal with problematic situations.

I totally agree that you shouldn't hold onto combo pieces, hoping to find the other elements, use them to stay alive until you have a strong enough engine going, and like tstorm mentioned, a win condition will eventually fall into your lap.

Also, the more you play 1vs1, the more you'll find the weaknesses of your opponent's deck, and the more you can mulligan accordingly.

When I do get to play a multiplayer game, I'll often find myself playing a little more cautiously. I often don't play Zedruu until I'm sure the majority of the removal has been burnt, and there are more pressing threats on the board. People love to target a commander, so I'll focus more on playing symmetrical draw and having my permanents already in the hands of the opponents before I even cast Zedruu.

Zedruu is so much fun, there's almost an infinite number of interactions, combos, and mini-combos to discover.

[Sefir]

From the new additions, Sorcerer Class was the gas that I anticipated. While it did indeed win the game in exactly 1 occassion (Turnabout combo), the fact that it has such a high floor is what makes it count. My main problem with this deck is usually not being able to hit lands and Sorcerer class helps the digging immersely. But the true champion is easily Share the Spoils. I have abstained from using many of Zedruu's chaos elements, mostly because it makes people feel bad (and me an immediate target) and secondly because I play a lot online and chaos makes the game too time consuming compared to real life gaming. But Share the Spoils is a card EVERYONE enjoys. Doesnt make people lose their stuff a lot, doesnt lock the game and it actually makes the game faster and smoother. Furthermore it is very easy to play online (I haven't tried to create multiple copies of Share the Spoils online yet. I guess that might hurt the experience ). Costing only 2 mana is also a nice bonus. Definetely both staples in my eyes.

[tstorm823]

From the new additions, Sorcerer Class was the gas that I anticipated. While it did indeed win the game in exactly 1 occassion (Turnabout combo), the fact that it has such a high floor is what makes it count. My main problem with this deck is usually not being able to hit lands and Sorcerer class helps the digging immersely. But the true champion is easily Share the Spoils. I have abstained from using many of Zedruu's chaos elements, mostly because it makes people feel bad (and me an immediate target) and secondly because I play a lot online and chaos makes the game too time consuming compared to real life gaming. But Share the Spoils is a card EVERYONE enjoys. Doesnt make people lose their stuff a lot, doesnt lock the game and it actually makes the game faster and smoother. Furthermore it is very easy to play online (I haven't tried to create multiple copies of Share the Spoils online yet. I guess that might hurt the experience ). Costing only 2 mana is also a nice bonus. Definetely both staples in my eyes.

I'm psyched to hear this reaction, because being totally honest, I haven't played much at all lately. I've been playing a lot more disc golf than Magic this summer, and the few games of Magic I've even seen the new cards, I didn't see them early enough to judge. Not that I had doubts about Share the Spoils to begin with.

[PetrusTen]

From the new additions, Sorcerer Class was the gas that I anticipated. While it did indeed win the game in exactly 1 occassion (Turnabout combo), the fact that it has such a high floor is what makes it count. My main problem with this deck is usually not being able to hit lands and Sorcerer class helps the digging immersely. But the true champion is easily Share the Spoils. I have abstained from using many of Zedruu's chaos elements, mostly because it makes people feel bad (and me an immediate target) and secondly because I play a lot online and chaos makes the game too time consuming compared to real life gaming. But Share the Spoils is a card EVERYONE enjoys. Doesnt make people lose their stuff a lot, doesnt lock the game and it actually makes the game faster and smoother. Furthermore it is very easy to play online (I haven't tried to create multiple copies of Share the Spoils online yet. I guess that might hurt the experience ). Costing only 2 mana is also a nice bonus. Definetely both staples in my eyes.

Thanks for the tips. What is it about Share the Spoils that you find works so well with this deck? I'm assuming because it's a pseudo Howling Mine and also color fixing? I suppose it creates some additional exiling for Mirror, however small that synergy may be. Curious if there are any other interactions you've noticed?

I played a few more games recently. While I'm getting better with the deck, I still struggle to draw synergies that can win the game while trying to stay alive. I find Zedruu's donate ability to be almost worthless as spending UWR is too expensive and often means I'm not casting something else to advance the state. I may attempt to address by swapping some of the group draw for something like Akroan Horse or adding cards similar to Vedalken Plotter.

[Sefir]

Thanks for the tips. What is it about Share the Spoils that you find works so well with this deck? I'm assuming because it's a pseudo Howling Mine and also color fixing? I suppose it creates some additional exiling for Mirror, however small that synergy may be. Curious if there are any other interactions you've noticed?

The usual stuff. Suplements Zedruu's game plan very well. It makes it very hard to lose your land drops, whenever opponents use permanents from your side of the Share makes Zedruu draw more and it can additionally be donated for even more card draw.

[tstorm823]

Thanks for the tips. What is it about Share the Spoils that you find works so well with this deck? I'm assuming because it's a pseudo Howling Mine and also color fixing? I suppose it creates some additional exiling for Mirror, however small that synergy may be. Curious if there are any other interactions you've noticed?

Another aspect of Share the Spoils, assuming it tends to play out the way Knowledge Pool does, there's a bit of a FOMO effect with these shared resource sorts of cards. Leaving something good exiled means that other people might get that card AND you lose access to it, which is a lot of extra pressure on people to make plays that would otherwise be suboptimal. This deck is at its best when other players don't play their normal game. Most decks are gonna be able to attack you dead before you win if they get to goldfish the whole time.

[agbo]

Long time lurker here (~2 years now), I play the deck with some personal changes and I love it so much! For me this deck has created so many cool scenarios and given me so many stories that it's one of my favourite decks, which puts me to shame because it wasn't me who designed it! My friends also love playing against it because it's a deck that lets everyone play Magic and may sneak in a spectacular finish or a bizarre boardstate/stack. I had people cracking a laugh because of a spot-on Mirrorweave target, or having someone praising me for my early Emergency Powers which I enabled with a Turnabout with a Karoo bounce trigger on the stack. The deck is full of surprises for both my opponents and myself. I play it to get back with stories, way more than wins.

When I first read the primer I was totally sold on the "no bad christmas" Zedruu, because though I wanted to build a deck around her that strategy felt too cheesy for me. The idea of building a deck full of bad cards because your commander may give you the chance of giving those away felt too much of a long shot. I also like building decks that are better with the commander out, but are playable without ever casting it or with having it removed. I want my decks to be enhanced by my 8th card, not useless without it.

That being said, this article totally gave me that. Zedruu is a kinda costly card advantage engine, but I've had games without even casting her because I had a better engine online (like a Mindmoil + Teferi's Ageless Insight) and the deck is spiraling out by itself, so I keep doing what it does best!

Regarding my personal changes, I've tried many cards just to see how they play in the deck. Some of them are from previous iterations, some of them I just felt they might work. I also "upgraded" the mana base a little, I love the deck so much I couldn't resist gradually changing the mana base to fit the shocks and the crowd lands. I keep the Karoos because they're solid here.


Some non-land notable cards I'm currently running:

Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind: I'm not greedy enough to play Parun, and this one does the job quite well. Great removal with Mindmoil effects and with Zedruu triggers. I understand it goes AGAINST the philosophy of the deck because it's a 2-card combo with Swans of Bryn Argoll, drawing your entire deck. Totally the boogeyman of my pod.

Sphinx of the Second Sun: It's insane here. The mana cost is tough but if unanswered when it comes into play, it pays for itself. It helps so much with having mana to play permanents and then donate.

Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge: I'd never not play this card and here it's remarkable. Almost always the first card in my Doomsday™ piles.

Emergency Powers: Talked about this one, and I know it sparked some debate back then. I personally play it over Temporal Cascade not so much because of the mana, but because of the instant speed and because it cheats the best card from your new hand.

Fires of Invention: This one feels like made for Zedruu in my opinion. You can cheat all the expensive spells this deck is known for while keeping mana open to sink on donations. It's a very weird deterrant because your opponents know you can donate the Fires in response to anything so interacting with your board becomes tricky. Some decks would like the Fires to be donated to them, but others like Etali, Primal Storm find the card back-breaking and would totally hose them (which is also a problem because I personally dislike hosing players out of the game).

Dance of the Manse: My budget Replenish which can be interesting with Jeskai Ascendancy. I'm a sucker for recursion and I can never build a deck without at least one recursion card, which makes my discards way less painful. You draw so many cards with this deck and not always finding the Reliquary Tower makes discarding inevitable, and considering we're running so many artifacts and enchantments, those types are the ones I discard the most. This card has been my best top deck so many times that I'm not removing it anytime soon.

Whirlwind of Thought: Generic draw spell. I've been considering Moderation in its place because it's cheaper and may be a less painful donate target in a pinch, but I'm still hesitating.


Notable exclusions from the original deck list:

Barren Glory: I'm not that brave, believe me.

Mind's Desire: I could never make it work, perhaps I've been doing it wrong. It's one of those cards I find tricky to use outside of the combo, but perhaps it's just me.

Possibility Storm: Too much chaos for my personal taste. The card is cool but on paper I feel is a little time-consuming, and my friends kinda dislike it so I cut it.

Heliod, Sun-Crowned: I don't own a copy and waited for it price to drop, but looks like it's never happening thanks to Modern.

Time Spiral: See Heliod but except the possibility of a price drop. I look back when thanks to this deck I could grab a Mind Over Matter for $15 and a Firestorm for $5 and I deeply regret not getting that one for the ~$70 it was when I put the deck together. I own a proxy though, might as well try it.


Notable cards I tried but didn't make it:

Thassa's Oracle: In my defense I tried it those first 2 weeks before it became the best win-con in the format. Pulled the Swans+Niv combo once very early and the crowd groaned the card out of my deck.

Paradox Haze: It's a trap. I took courage to take it out when it got removed here and never looked back. It's a weird card draw doubler but only for the Zedruu triggers, totally ignoring the rest of the deck's card draw. It looks like a must run here but Teferi's Ageless Insight is a million times better.

Teferi's Puzzle Box: I put it in because some of my friends showed how envious they were about my Mindmoil so I wanted to share the love. But when an opponent removes it because they like their hand before you can untap with it it's quite devastating. Cool card but may be a bad investment.

Agent of Treachery: May play with this guy again. It's a good payoff after changing control of permanentes and plays good with Venser, the Sojourner.

Arjun, the Shifting Flame: I really like this one. Mindmoil is so good I really want two, but there's a limit of how many 5+ mana cards you can fit in a commander deck without hurting opening hands so much.

Underworld Breach: This card is cursed. Back then when I gave it a try it was in every opening hand I had, no joke. I tested it because I was convinced it'd work outside of combo, and my wet dream was casting a Mirror of Fate from the graveyard while exiling the cards I wanted to put in the pile as part of the cost . How naïve I was. I only got a dead card that gave me nothing back because my graveyard wasn't stocked enough. Won't try this again outside of a self-mill deck, it can be quite disappointing.

Thought Lash: Very cool card to stay alive more and interacts amazingly with Mirror of Fate. I removed it because the idea of unluckily exiling the Mirror itself from the top scares me at night.


I want to keep being active in this thread, I feel your input gave me so many good times I want to contribute some of that back.
Thanks for sharing this deck to the world @tstorm823 And also thanks to everyone here testing cards, giving feedback, playing the deck and making it better!

[tstorm823]

I want to keep being active in this thread, I feel your input gave me so many good times I want to contribute some of that back.
Thanks for sharing this deck to the world @tstorm823 And also thanks to everyone here testing cards, giving feedback, playing the deck and making it better!

Hi! Thanks for posting. Always happy to see people enjoying the deck, and especially always happy to see people trying out different things and telling me how they work out.

In reverse order: the things you list as having tried and cut, I basically have no disagreements with, other than Paradox Haze described as a trap. I can see calling it that from the perspective of playing it just cause it goes with Zedruu, but it's a pretty fun build around piece if you have a lot of upkeep stuff going on. Once upon a time, many years ago, I played Wild Evocation and Land Tax and Venser's Journal in the same list, and Paradox Haze had silly things to do.

Talking about the things you cut, that's basically all personal choice sort of stuff. I mean, you can pry my Possibility Storm from my cold, dead hands, but to each his own. I have basically the same comment to make about all of them, and that is to say that all of my card choices are pretty specific to the other things I choose to play. I like to have something that can copy an enchantment because it's cool with Possibility Storm. I play Temporal Mastery because better time magic doesn't go as well with Mirror of Fate. I play Temporal Cascade because it's the Time Twister that works with Barren Glory. So like, if you're going to cut Barren Glory, you can definitely replace Temporal Cascade with a different version of that effect, which I don't have to tell you because you already did.

So like, Emergency Powers seems great for the direction you're going. Without Barren Glory, one of the upsides of Temporal Cascade is out. When you play card draw more along the lines of Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge or Whirlwind of Thought, you don't want to shuffle awayhands in general. With pieces like Fires of Invention or Moderation, Emergency Powers is stronger than most draw sevens, probably even Time Spiral. Your ins and outs mentioned have a real logical flow to them. That while I might not follow where you've gone, I think it's well done, and just different than some of what I want to play.

Sphinx of the Second Sun is actually sleeved for me right now. I am not yet sold. I mentioned it once when it was spoiled, and then I didn't get to try it until like a month ago, and I have to confess that I am trying it for the worst reason: to satiate my desire to play evenly balanced 3 color mini creature cycles. Sphinx is my attempt at a blue "generic mythic bomb" to go with Inferno Titan and Cavalier of Dawn. One time I cloned it a bunch and flipped Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison and killed everyone with 4/4s and it was sweet. But Sphinx highlights an identity crisis this deck has been developing for a while now: do I play instants, or do I play instant speed enablers? If you go way back in time, this deck had like 4 actual instants, and Vedalken Orrery was fantastic. Now I've got like 10-12, and some mana sinks too, that those effects have diminished in value. But Sphinx pulls me back to wanting flash everything, so I don't really know what to do with all that.

[agbo]

Hi! Thanks for posting. Always happy to see people enjoying the deck, and especially always happy to see people trying out different things and telling me how they work out.

I'm so glad to read that and thanks for the response! It took me so long to come here and officially thank you

In reverse order: the things you list as having tried and cut, I basically have no disagreements with, other than Paradox Haze described as a trap. I can see calling it that from the perspective of playing it just cause it goes with Zedruu, but it's a pretty fun build around piece if you have a lot of upkeep stuff going on. Once upon a time, many years ago, I played Wild Evocation and Land Tax and Venser's Journal in the same list, and Paradox Haze had silly things to do.

Perhaps I've put too much drama to it but I see your point. When you're playing with other cards with legitimate upkeep triggers, Paradox Haze becomes way better.
Nowadays Walking Archive and Barren Glory are the only ones with upkeep triggers from your list, the latter not really having a trigger you'd like to copy anyways. I'll keep the card in the radar if I add more relevant upkeep triggers.

Talking about the things you cut, that's basically all personal choice sort of stuff. I mean, you can pry my Possibility Storm from my cold, dead hands, but to each his own.

We all end up adjusting our decks to match our play patterns, expertise, etc. Possibility Storm is a difficult card to master, and I personally felt in a position I was using it poorly while taking too much of my opponents' time. That was a long time ago though, things may have changed.

I play Temporal Mastery because better time magic doesn't go as well with Mirror of Fate. I play Temporal Cascade because it's the Time Twister that works with Barren Glory. So like, if you're going to cut Barren Glory, you can definitely replace Temporal Cascade with a different version of that effect, which I don't have to tell you because you already did.

I see in this thread that many people cut Barren Glory. It's an intimidating card in my opinion, it can be a dead card or it can give you the game, and it looks so skill intensive that I just made the conscious choice of removing it from the deck. But you're absolutely right that if you want to win with Barren Glory, Temporal Cascade is your best Timetwister effect. Getting rid of your hand is the hardest half for this win con as the other half can be leveraged to Zedruu and a hell lot of mana.

So like, Emergency Powers seems great for the direction you're going. Without Barren Glory, one of the upsides of Temporal Cascade is out. When you play card draw more along the lines of Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge or Whirlwind of Thought, you don't want to shuffle awayhands in general. With pieces like Fires of Invention or Moderation, Emergency Powers is stronger than most draw sevens, probably even Time Spiral. Your ins and outs mentioned have a real logical flow to them. That while I might not follow where you've gone, I think it's well done, and just different than some of what I want to play.

Thanks for all the feedback! I gotta say that I started with an older version of the deck, tried to keep up with the changes, made some swaps on my own, and kept some cards from previous versions that I just couldn't let go yet.
I'll go ahead and paste my list. There's nothing crazy in there, there may be nonbos or undesired interactions that I perhaps didn't catch. I tried not breaking too many of the 4-card combos or I'd be drawing a lot of weird pieces that may not close the game.

Sphinx of the Second Sun is actually sleeved for me right now. I am not yet sold. I mentioned it once when it was spoiled, and then I didn't get to try it until like a month ago, and I have to confess that I am trying it for the worst reason: to satiate my desire to play evenly balanced 3 color mini creature cycles. Sphinx is my attempt at a blue "generic mythic bomb" to go with Inferno Titan and Cavalier of Dawn.

It's a valid reason, yet there are several other sphinxes and you went through with this one. I can see why you may be on the fence with it, let me know your impressions when you test it a little more!

One time I cloned it a bunch and flipped Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison and killed everyone with 4/4s and it was sweet. But Sphinx highlights an identity crisis this deck has been developing for a while now: do I play instants, or do I play instant speed enablers? If you go way back in time, this deck had like 4 actual instants, and Vedalken Orrery was fantastic. Now I've got like 10-12, and some mana sinks too, that those effects have diminished in value. But Sphinx pulls me back to wanting flash everything, so I don't really know what to do with all that.

That's a hard one. I was around when both Vedalken Orrery and Leyline of Anticipation were in the deck at the same time, and the "... and hopefully get flash" was part of the setup. Electrodominance was a good inclusion though (it's cool with Swans and Taunter as well). Sometimes playing everything with flash didn't really change the outcome much (considering we spent a card on that), and sometimes we don't even get there because opponents get jelous and blow our Orrery. But if we have Saheeli in play, we just want to flash Mirror of Fate before our turn and nothing else.

[Sefir]

Sphinx of the Second Sun is actually sleeved for me right now. I am not yet sold. I mentioned it once when it was spoiled, and then I didn't get to try it until like a month ago, and I have to confess that I am trying it for the worst reason: to satiate my desire to play evenly balanced 3 color mini creature cycles. Sphinx is my attempt at a blue "generic mythic bomb" to go with Inferno Titan and Cavalier of Dawn. One time I cloned it a bunch and flipped Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison and killed everyone with 4/4s and it was sweet. But Sphinx highlights an identity crisis this deck has been developing for a while now: do I play instants, or do I play instant speed enablers? If you go way back in time, this deck had like 4 actual instants, and Vedalken Orrery was fantastic. Now I've got like 10-12, and some mana sinks too, that those effects have diminished in value. But Sphinx pulls me back to wanting flash everything, so I don't really know what to do with all that.

I also use Sphinx of the Second Sun and I love it. First of all it's an all powerful creature that synergizes great with everything the deck is doing + it's essentially free. It's also cloneable with Glasspool Mimic, Kiki-Jiki or Mirrorweave. Finally, more than once I have used Sphinx as the 4th piece of the Barren Glory-Leave//Chance-Nahiri'sWrath/Temporal Cascade combo. Ofc having a flash enabler helps to abuse the Sphinx more since no matter how many instances we run, we still have many Sorcery-speed powerful cards (Sea-Gate Restoration, Mind's Desire, Mindmoil, Harnfel, etc)but I also believe that the deck has more than enough mana sinks and 2-3 flash enablers are enough IMHO. Even providing open mana for an extra Zedruu donation+interaction is something worth playing in my eyes. I understand that tstorm was once afraid of the possibility that someone might steal/copy the Sphinx. I agree and thus I believe that a reactive package is needed for your own security. Cards like Narset's Reversal, Sudden Substitution, Tibalt's Trickery or even Teferi's Protection help a lot in that. From more than 50 games with the deck, the times my Sphinx was copied or stolen were less than 3.

EDIT: As far as Paradox Haze, it is a card that I use and continues to amaze me, since it is the only card in the deck that provides me (and only me) with at least least 2 cards/turn with Zedruu (triggers Walking Archive too). This is enough for me. Zedruu is my best card draw engine in the deck anyways. I do not consider cards like Alhammarret's Archive or Teferi's Ageless Insight real substitutes for it, since they cannot be used as donations themselves and also need 1-2 more cards for them to work. Sure, there are other powerful synergies (I also run Archive and Mindmoil), but Haze is faster and can get out of hand equally big. The only other card in the deck that comes that early and can provide equal amount of CA (with more flexibility) is probably Strionic Resonator, a card that unfortunately I can't use any more since I run the MOM version of Zedruu....

[PetrusTen]

I'm digging this discussion and will be considering some of these adds for my swaps. I consider myself unqualified to play a deck as tricky this, but I enjoy the challenge and find myself still interested in piloting it even though I've only managed to pull off one win out of some ~12 games (when my opponents completely ignored me all game). So take this feedback with a grain of salt from a Zedruu n00b.

Barren Glory I never even attempted to play due to perceived skill-bar to achieve
Temporal Cascade Eventually became a cut as I felt a lack of synergy
Mirror of Fate and Rest in Peace I plan to cut. Initially intimidated by the mirror, but eventually I saw it's power and it helped me get my only win. However, even though Doomsday is harder to setup, I still find it kind of cheesy for my own taste.
Birgi, God of Storytelling // Harnfel, Horn of Bounty Plan to cut. If I cut mirror, then exiling is not as useful and while the card filtering is useful, it's an expensive card to drop. The red mana I didn't find powerful enough and I've played this card several times now.
Nahiri, the Harbinger Just wasn't feeling this one.
Heliod, Sun-Crowned Didn't feel there was enough multi-use synergy with this card, or of the use-cases the synergy wasn't strong enough.
Kami of the Crescent Moon Plan to cut for more asymmetric draw
Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun For my skill level, I find this a very tough transform to pull off. The card filtering is slow compared to a replacement, and exiling won't be as useful without mirror
I plan to add cards like Akroan Horse or Pendant of Prosperity that have immediate donate affects.

I also plan to remove some of the bounce lands and proxy a faster mana base. I understand there are some synergies with the bounce lands, like turnabout on the bounce trigger or bouncing a swapped land, but I find these synergies too fringe to be reliably useful.

Despite the # of times I've played this deck, I've SO rarely gotten out what I see as some of the core cards like Knowledge Pool, Eye of the Storm, Possibility Storm, Mindmoil....for some reasons these cards really evade my draw.

As for additions, I plan to add a couple stax like Propaganda and Meekstone, some light tutoring such as Moon-Blessed Cleric, and one or two bad gifts such as a Steel Golem . I know this somewhat goes against the tenets of tstorm's deck, but my meta is usually two or three-man games where I can't always hide in a corner and my opponents play some fast decks. Zedruu is not a very strong draw engine, and I find in most games by T5 I'm still rubbing two sticks together while my opponents' decks are off and ripping. I perhaps made a dumb move cutting Kykar from the posted list and will add him back. I find Mirrorweave to be used almost exclusively for defense because I typically only have 0-3 creatures out. Makes me considering adding a card like Call the Coppercoats to be used in conjunction with Mirrorweave .

Much work to be done and looking forward to it!

[lyonhaert]

my meta is usually two or three-man games

IMO that really does have a huge impact on what kinds of decks will work compared to 4-person pods at a more relaxed pace. In three-person, it can very quickly becomes two-person, so proactive development of your board in the early game becomes way more important in a meta that's probably faster than this deck is designed for. In the Deck Strategy section of the OP, a big component of the deck's early- and mid-game is drawing cards. The three phases described there, as part of the essence of the deck's design, simply may not be as compatible with the meta vs more proactive deck designs. A lot of the design's tenets are what make it slower and seem less cohesive/redundant than some of the decks you face, I'd wager (tenets such as a seemingly chaotic mix of weird interactions, symmetrical draw, and no combo fewer than 4 cards). Donating symmetrical card draw is what breaks the symmetry, but I wouldn't be surprised if donating Kami almost always gets him killed very quickly.

My concern is that your changes might not tip that balance enough; that cards like Meekstone and Steel Golem might just get you targeted more when this deck needs time to survive. Also, very often if I do pilot this deck, I go into it hoping to make some weird stuff happen and pre-consign myself to very likely not winning, though I will make an attempt.

[Sefir]

Yes, I also do not believe that evil gifts or stax cards are the solution. You will get targetted immediately.
If you are not playing in a highly comp. meta, Zedruu can easily compete in a 7ish table, even with 3 people. Some might even say that this is preferable, since you have 1 less opponent to give them symmetrical draw from all the Howling mine engines. Yes, the deck is not particularly fast, but in a 3-player table Zedruu should be played more controlish than chaos, so we have to take our time and adjust our gameplan accordingly. Zedruu values time more than anything. It is around t4-5 that we have a value engine and then all we need is to protect it and play our game. Value interaction more than usual (Chaos warp, Arcbond, Narset's Reversal, Nahiri's Wrath, etc), disrupt opponents when it is needed and slowly start playing your pieces based more by pure singleton value and not by combo potential. At some point (usually around t6-7, but it can be earlier with MOM builds) the deck explodes like it always does. Even the pure tstorm build, without any further additions. I remember my game in mtgMuddstah 2 months ago ended in t6 or 7 as well.

[agbo]

I also use Sphinx of the Second Sun and I love it. First of all it's an all powerful creature that synergizes great with everything the deck is doing + it's essentially free. It's also cloneable with Glasspool Mimic, Kiki-Jiki or Mirrorweave. [...]
I agree and thus I believe that a reactive package is needed for your own security. Cards like Narset's Reversal, Sudden Substitution, Tibalt's Trickery or even Teferi's Protection help a lot in that. From more than 50 games with the deck, the times my Sphinx was copied or stolen were less than 3.

EDIT: As far as Paradox Haze, it is a card that I use and continues to amaze me, since it is the only card in the deck that provides me (and only me) with at least least 2 cards/turn with Zedruu (triggers Walking Archive too). This is enough for me. Zedruu is my best card draw engine in the deck anyways. I do not consider cards like Alhammarret's Archive or Teferi's Ageless Insight real substitutes for it, since they cannot be used as donations themselves and also need 1-2 more cards for them to work. Sure, there are other powerful synergies (I also run Archive and Mindmoil), but Haze is faster and can get out of hand equally big. The only other card in the deck that comes that early and can provide equal amount of CA (with more flexibility) is probably Strionic Resonator, a card that unfortunately I can't use any more since I run the MOM version of Zedruu....

Great to hear that the Spinx is pulling some weight, I have a similar experience. I'm yet to try some cards you're mentioning, noticeably Glasspool Mimic // Glasspool Shore (the nonlegendary creature count is kinda low, but the cost is also low considering it can be a land), Tibalt's Trickery (is there any proactive application of this card that I'm not seeing?), and you further sold me Paradox Haze. I totally forgot it's a donate target as well which is a huge deal here.
I didn't understand what you're saying about Strionic Resonator, I'm also running MoM, am I doing something wrong?

I'm digging this discussion and will be considering some of these adds for my swaps. I consider myself unqualified to play a deck as tricky this, but I enjoy the challenge and find myself still interested in piloting it even though I've only managed to pull off one win out of some ~12 games (when my opponents completely ignored me all game). So take this feedback with a grain of salt from a Zedruu n00b.

Been there. Trust me, you'll get better at it. Thanks for playing and coming back with your feedback.

Barren Glory I never even attempted to play due to perceived skill-bar to achieve
Kami of the Crescent Moon Plan to cut for more asymmetric draw
Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun For my skill level, I find this a very tough transform to pull off.
[...]
The card filtering is slow compared to a replacement, and exiling won't be as useful without mirror
I plan to add cards like Akroan Horse or Pendant of Prosperity that have immediate donate affects.

I also plan to remove some of the bounce lands and proxy a faster mana base. I understand there are some synergies with the bounce lands, like turnabout on the bounce trigger or bouncing a swapped land, but I find these synergies too fringe to be reliably useful.

It looks like being intimidated by Barren Glory is a trend. I think it's an amazing but scary win I've never pulled off .
If you're playing with less players, cutting some Howling Mine effects is a good idea imo. The fact that you're using a card from your hand for that effect and that your opponents get to draw first is a huge deal, and it's literally card disadvantage on 1v1. You break the disparity by donating those permanents, and creatures are the near to the worst permanent to donate, so Kami of the Crescent Moon should be the first out (also the double U pip can be problematic).
Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun is an interesting card. I've had games I couldn't flip it but my hand was so land heavy that just changing a land for a new card was enough of a good deal.
Bounce lands are amazing if you're running Mind Over Matter. Turning your dead cards in hand for double Simian Spirit Guide (or 2/3 Black Lotus?) can be the difference of going off or not.

My concern is that your changes might not tip that balance enough; that cards like Meekstone and Steel Golem might just get you targeted more when this deck needs time to survive. Also, very often if I do pilot this deck, I go into it hoping to make some weird stuff happen and pre-consign myself to very likely not winning, though I will make an attempt.

I think it depends how often you're playing 1v1, because in that case you're always being targeted. Those cards are tricky though, you can't just slam them and hope Zedruu doesn't die in response to never be re-casted again.

Even the pure tstorm build, without any further additions. I remember my game in mtgMuddstah 2 months ago ended in t6 or 7 as well.

Oh my god I love that channel! I went straight to look for that video and it was amazing. Not only your dog is a celebrity now, but also you totally represented the deck and showcased how explosive it can be. I feel tempted to get a Smothering Tithe, as it pulled so much weight there and works amazing with Howling Mine effects.

[lyonhaert]

I didn't understand what you're saying about Strionic Resonator, I'm also running MoM, am I doing something wrong?

tstorm has a rule about minimum 4 cards to a combo, though Zedruu can be one of them. But MoM, Strionic Resonator, and Zedruu form a 3-card combo to copy Zedruu's card-draw trigger and untap the Resonator and mana sources to dig through the library - technically there are other cards involved in the mana sources and donations, but they're not really combo-specific as they'd happen in the course of playing anyway. As you noted, MoM is great with the 2-mana lands.

So not really something "wrong", but something tstorm (and anybody following that principle) avoids for the deck.

[tstorm823]

I remember my game in mtgMuddstah 2 months ago ended in t6 or 7 as well.

And I didn't know about it until now!? That was fantastic! It warms my heart that someone can make the channel people go to for edh gameplay and still be like "wait, what?" when seeing Zedruu do it's stuff. That fight over Temporal Mastery was both amazing and also kind of irrelevant and I loved every second.

As for additions, I plan to add a couple stax like Propaganda and Meekstone, some light tutoring such as Moon-Blessed Cleric, and one or two bad gifts such as a Steel Golem . I know this somewhat goes against the tenets of tstorm's deck, but my meta is usually two or three-man games where I can't always hide in a corner and my opponents play some fast decks.

I genuinely advise against this. Your opponents probably have removal spells. You're making everyone draw cards. You're helping them draw removal spells. Permanent based disruption is a lightning bolt for removal. I've lost games where one opponent had no answer for someone else's win condition because they spent their instant speed removal on my Rest In Peace at sorcery speed to unlock their graveyard. That has happened multiple times, and RIP is far less aggressive than something like Meekstone. If you want more interaction, particularly in fewer person games, I suggest more instants.

It looks like being intimidated by Barren Glory is a trend. I think it's an amazing but scary win I've never pulled off .

If ever there were a change in wish policy (which I personally feel should come from Wizards, they should make their wish rules consistent and drop the "casual players can wish for any card they own!" nonsense, and that would probably lead to a change here as well) I'd probably put a wish in the deck to wish for the silliest wincons, and then not maindeck Barren Glory.

[Sefir]

Tibalt's Trickery (is there any proactive application of this card that I'm not seeing?)

Tibalt's Trickery, Mirror of Fate, Replication Technique /Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, Lotus Petal is a 4 card combo. With Petal and Trickery on hand and 2 Mirror of Fates in play, you create a doomsday pile with 3 lands, Mind's Desire , Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Cavalier of Dawn and Jeskai Ascendancy in that specific order. Cast the Petal and counter it with the Tibalt's Trickery. Your pile will reveal the Mind's Desire. Cast the Mind's desire with Storm=2 from your previous spells and this puts both Kiki Jiki, Cavalier of Dawn and Jeskai Ascendancy in play. Now you have the Kiki Jiki, Cavalier of Dawn, Jeskai Ascendancy, Lotus Petal combo assembled. Get infinite mana. Now you can have infinite Mirrors of Faith. Put a Pandemonium on top of your library. Draw it with one of your million Ascendancy triggers. Win the game through the infinite dmg from the infinite 3/3 Golems and Copies of Cavaliers etbs.

I feel tempted to get a Smothering Tithe, as it pulled so much weight there and works amazing with Howling Mine effects.

If you are interested in Smothering Tithe AND you play with a MOM, you should know that there are some extra 4-card combos like
Alhammaret's Archive/Teferi's Ageless Insight, MOM, Mikokoro, Smothering Tithe (but Smothering Tithe can also be any land that produces 2 or more mana in this combo really....)

Oh my god I love that channel! I went straight to look for that video and it was amazing. Not only your dog is a celebrity now, but also you totally represented the deck and showcased how explosive it can be.

And I didn't know about it until now!? That was fantastic! It warms my heart that someone can make the channel people go to for edh gameplay and still be like "wait, what?" when seeing Zedruu do it's stuff. That fight over Temporal Mastery was both amazing and also kind of irrelevant and I loved every second.

Thank you both for the nice words. My real life dog that the alter was based on passed away a few months ago from old age so it double warms my heart to hear that it provided a nice moment for the community.

[lyonhaert]

I just looked up and watched that game. That was wild.

"...and fearing the crack-back, or loss of my mutate creature, pass turn after Nikos threatens me."

lol - dang, @Sefir, what'd you threaten?

[Sefir]

I just looked up and watched that game. That was wild.

"...and fearing the crack-back, or loss of my mutate creature, pass turn after Nikos threatens me."

lol - dang, @Sefir, what'd you threaten?

Glad you liked it.

My exact words were " If you attack me with that Trygon Predator, you will lose that Trygon Predator".
I wanted to keep my enchantments at any cost.
It was not an empty threat though, I was waiting with an instant speed (thanks to the Leyline) Gilded Drake in hand.

EDIT: I will leave the link for the game here for future references or if more people want to watch it.

[lyonhaert]

Yeah, you had a pretty darn good starting hand.

[PetrusTen]

Lots of useful information here and I watched 4-5 of the Muddstah's videos playing Zedruu. After reading all the comments, I think I will stay away from symmetrical stax such as Meekstone to avoid being a target and have it removed as tstorm pointed out...and probably won't play Steel Golem either because it just isn't that interesting, even though it is very unique to donate a bad gift and could work very well in 1v1. I am still leaning towards stax like Propaganda Ghostly Prison because, at least in my meta, no one is going to blow a removal card on something that is protecting the lowest threat deck on the board (currently me haha). There are much more interesting and synergistic cards to play such as Mind Over Matter, Sunbird's Invocation, and Smothering Tithe. I think the main takeaway from watching the play videos and reading these comments is to just have fun with it and adjust the deck to my own playstyle, skill level, and group meta. For me, I think that will be lowering the skill-bar, swapping 4-card combos for 3-card (or potentially even a 2-card + some condition [e.g. haste]...a quasi-3-card combo), juicing up the mana base, and including a few commander staples (see aforementioned smothering tithe). Overall, reducing the variability in trade for efficiency and consistency.

Is anyone aware of other playgroup videos (besides Muddstah) of people playing this jank/combo type of Zedruu? I'm sure there are plenty of bad gift Zedruu vids. It was super helpful to watch others pilot Zedruu because it reinforced the idea (as the primer says) that this deck NEEDS to go off...and sometimes it simply doesn't. The Nikos Barren Glory win was awesome. I would have really struggled to piece that together. I'm not crazy about the Helm of Obedience combo with RIP, although it at least needs a tap to work. Some people in my group have run infinite Altar of Dementia combos where the whole board loses at once. Not fun, IMO.

/edit One thing that slightly disappoints me about Zedruu is that the donate ability feels very underutilized in these builds (seemed to be the case in the gameplay videos too). It makes Zedruu feel like an after thought and whether he's really a relevant commander, save for the occasional combo like Dissipation Field.