Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

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tstorm823
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

Flem1000 wrote:
3 years ago
I get it now, thanks!
That's brilliant

Edit: Oh, I don't wanna be that guy, but I see that in the Arcbond golem combo, you're saying that it deals 44+ damage to each creature and planeswalker, while you mean each creature and player. You're also saying that Throes of Chaos can get any card with cmc less than 3, when you mean cmc less than 4. Of course people can understand what you mean with context, but just so you know that it's there.
Thank you! Unfortunately, now if I ever write a novel you have to read the whole thing, which would almost certainly be incomprehensible torture.
MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
I'm not running Cascade, but it works with Windfall too and I wouldn't be opposed to running either/both of them and maybe something like Commit // Memory. Vanish is great for me just about every time I play it, so making it even better gets a big thumbs up from me. Most of all though, (assuming the end step triggers work the way we want) (see edit) I like that I can Ignorant Bliss on end step after a big Read the Runes resolves (which would also have to be cast on end step because mana has to be available for Bliss) and sacs everything besides Barren Glory.
I am, at some point, going to test out Read the Runes. Scalable draw spells are great, and more importantly instant speed sac outlets are super great. I wonder if I already own a copy...
lyonhaert wrote:
3 years ago
@tstorm823 Do you ever have very solitaire turns just going off and looking for the win combo, or does familiarity help avoid that?

I probably shouldn't goldfish late at night when I'm starting to get sleepy, because it just breaks my brain. :laugh:
Yes. Yes I do. Solitaire wins often take much longer than real game wins, because there's no real opponent to die and end the game, so you can keep going down the hole of "well what if they had infinite life, or what if they had Teferi's Protection, could I still win the game if they had infinite creatures to block with and 1000 Ghostly Prisons? And like, in a real game, you can draw into answers to the known threats and divert your attention from hoping to win immediately to just ensuring another turn and have it be the right play, and that doesn't happen with imaginary opponents.
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Post by DrKillenger » 3 years ago



It will probably just end up being jank but I immediately thought of Zedruu when I saw this card and I can't wait to mess around with it when it comes out.

Mirrorweaving this is a hilarious idea, you could potentially win on the spot with enough creatures and 55+ life. Heck even if I only had 4 creatures in play when I cast Mirrorweave if even a single one connects for damage I gain 16 life, and 64 if all 4 of them connect so it's not even very hard to get that high.

Nullifying my combat damage to opponents really won't matter 99% of the time since if I'm gonna swing out it's usually with lethal or just to trigger something, and it doesn't interfere with combos in any capacity.

It's also just a decent body on it's own, I find I have a hard time addressing fliers from time to time with my deck so a 2/6 flying double strike is kinda nice regardless, and it has great synergy on multiple levels with Heliod to boot.

Worth noting that it can be used defensively or politically as a Fog effect by donating it too. A bit dangerous considering her last line of text, but hey, it's an option that's there and Venser is a thing soooooo...

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Post by Sefir » 3 years ago



Now this is a card for Zedruu. It can push forward absurdely if we have a reasonable amount of cards in hand, It can be played for its land part in the early game (and possibly bounced with a bounceland or Leave//Chance to be played for its sorcery part in the late game) and all this package takes a land slot.
I love it.
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

DrKillenger wrote:
3 years ago


It will probably just end up being jank but I immediately thought of Zedruu when I saw this card and I can't wait to mess around with it when it comes out.
This card is goofy, and I'm thinking about it in the sense of "it's fun to think about the goofy things I could do with this", but 5 mana angels and I don't have a loving relationship. I'm used to disappointment. Like, Mirrorweave on this could cause all sorts of chaos, but the requirement to attack to do literally anything is probably a non-starter.
Sefir wrote:
3 years ago


Now this is a card for Zedruu... all this package takes a land slot.
I love it.
You had me until the last part, cause as someone who's been saying forever that I should probably find a space for one more land for like years, these cards that have land as a secondary option have my attention as a spell slot. I've been hoping for creature even modestly worth playing, cause doing things like flipping with Mirrorweave and Golden Guardian as a minor ramp spell would make me giggle, bounce lands and Vensers to convert into a body later on seems worthwhile. Like, land/clone or land/vedalken plotter would just be bonkers, but I guess in the absence of something like that, I'll accept land/draw 15.
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Post by Sefir » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
I've been hoping for creature even modestly worth playing, cause doing things like flipping with Mirrorweave and Golden Guardian as a minor ramp spell would make me giggle, bounce lands and Vensers to convert into a body later on seems worthwhile. Like, land/clone or land/vedalken plotter would just be bonkers, but I guess in the absence of something like that, I'll accept land/draw 15.
Glasspool Mimic/Glasspool Shore gets so close to that.... vastly inferior to both Metamorph or Mirrorpool and the deck needing lands re-adjustment is not out of the question (it starts having a bit too many lands that enter tapped.... perhaps a minor lands upgrade can be suggested...) but it is a land/clone and shenanigans are still applicable.
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

Sefir wrote:
3 years ago
Glasspool Mimic/Glasspool Shore gets so close to that.... vastly inferior to both Metamorph or Mirrorpool and the deck needing lands re-adjustment is not out of the question (it starts having a bit too many lands that enter tapped.... perhaps a minor lands upgrade can be suggested...) but it is a land/clone and shenanigans are still applicable.
Eeyup. The limitation on Mimic to only copy my creatures puts an incentive on having good clone targets or control exchanging nonsense, so that's something I'll be looking at as I consider deck changes.
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Post by Sefir » 3 years ago

I tried again Swans of Bryn Argol instead of Illusory Ambusher and … I just realised Nin+Swans+MOM is a 3 card combo when 3+ are payed in Nin's ability.
For me, it is an easy swap back to the cat instead of the Swans (Ambusher needs more mana and Flawless Maneuver as an extra piece for this particular interaction). Others though might prefer other solutions (like taking out Nin or MOM).

EDIT: On another note, does Shatterskull smashing//Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass has a place in the deck? Does the possible loss of 3 life worth one more card to trigger sorceries out of Possibility Storm or dmg Swans/Ambusher/Precursion Golem?

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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

Sefir wrote:
3 years ago
I tried again Swans of Bryn Argol instead of Illusory Ambusher and … I just realised Nin+Swans+MOM is a 3 card combo when 3+ are payed in Nin's ability.
For me, it is an easy swap back to the cat instead of the Swans (Ambusher needs more mana and Flawless Maneuver as an extra piece for this particular interaction). Others though might prefer other solutions (like taking out Nin or MOM).

EDIT: On another note, does Shatterskull smashing//Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass has a place in the deck? Does the possible loss of 3 life worth one more card to trigger sorceries out of Possibility Storm or dmg Swans/Ambusher/Precursion Golem?

I think yes. I fact, I think all 3 of the mythic flip lands might have a place. The red card is modal land/removal that works with Swans of Bryn Argoll or Arcbond. The blue card is modal land/mega card draw that goes nicely with Eye of the Storm or Bonus Round. The white card is land/multiple bodies which is good for Eye of the Storm spam or Mirrorweave bodies, but also has sneaky favor text that turns on the combos that require indestructibility. (I'm aware a 7 mana sorcery isn't a great combo piece, but when 1 part of the combo is Mind Over Matter, that matters a lot less.) All of those are really sweat with Vedalken Orrery. And then Glasspool Mimic // Glasspool Shore is 100% something I'm into.

I think I may add all 4 of those and cut 2 basics and 2 spells and end up with more lands in the deck. I also likely keep the mythics sleeved with the land side up. Playing bounce lands, creature Venser, Leave to Chance let me play all these things as lands without losing access to the spells later. I like the land spells.
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

To elaborate on the previous post: we're an EDH deck now, adding lands and 7-drops! Oh boy!

Adding back Mind Over Matter sort of preempted adding 7-drops nicely. In addition to the land-sorceries, I'm inspired by the random card thread to revisit another old friend, Drogskol Reaver. The card is powerful on its own and is a dirty Mirrorweave target, it's also a great card to clone for myself since I'm now looking at Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, and Glasspool Mimic // Glasspool Shore as cards that only clone my own creatures. Any of those pair nicely, as a single copy attacking with a clone on board is already 4 cards drawn.

But then we take a look at what combos that might fit into, and it gets real slick. First is infinite turns with Mirror of Fate, where anything that draws extra cards every turn counts as a 4th piece of the combo. Then we look at ways we might loop the card draw trigger in a single turn. With Mind Over Matter, we can turn card draw into mana, so then we need two more pieces that make mana into lifegain. The first is Kiki Jiki/ Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison. If you imagine a board with only those 4 cards, already tapped lands, no cards in hand, and Reaver is summoning sick, you can: copy Reaver with Kiki, attack and draw 4 cards, discard 2 to make reavers with kiki and 2 for mana and fight a reaver with Golden Guardian (they exactly bounce off each other), draw 4 cards. Discard 1 to make another reaver and 1 to make another guardian, 2 for mana but draw 5 this time. Loot through the whole deck gaining life and dig out a win condition. Having cards or mana to start makes it much easier.

The other option is the real reason I'm compelled to add Drogskol Reaver, because I get to use the most useless interaction in the deck: copies of Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun. If you copy the Gateway side with a single-sided object (using Saheeli or Echo Storm or Mirrormade) when the 5th cmc is exiled it cannot transform, but it still does the rest of the ability. "1, tap: draw a card, then exile a card from hand. Gain 5 life and untap this card". So with Mind Over Matter and Drogskol Reaver in play, the copied version will draw one itself and another from the life gain, which can be used to untap the mana needed to activate. Loot far enough to find a mana source that taps for 2 to build resources, and with Mirror of Fate in the deck you eventually hit infinite mana cast the whole deck infinite times.

A brief discussion of previously mentioned cards: I'm obviously trying to make Kiki work, but it's definitely been a card that sits in hand whenever it isn't immediately relevant. Which is fine, it has haste, and I typically have other options to cast. Temporal Isolation I won't say is the most powerful card I've played with since most creatures you want to answer have problem abilities unrelated to damage, but it makes me feel really smart. Having flash and preventing damage feels very fog-esque. Donating auras with Zedruu is a classic trick. I've given my creatures shadow to attack planeswalkers and then removed the aura via bounce or Chaos Warp to get the damage through. It's a real feel-smart card, I'll be playing it for a bit, it's felt better than playing cards that grant indestructible, and coincidentally I'm adding one of those anyway in Emeria's Call // Emeria, Shattered Skyclave. Interactive combo pieces are my favorite kind.

I haven't forgotten the Lotus Petal suggestion, I just haven't owned one in a long time. When I go to acquire these presumably grossly expensive new lands, Imma grab one.
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Post by ThatOneGuyJesse » 3 years ago

Long time lurker of this thread, first time poster.
I was wondering, wouldn't Mind Over Matter + Leave // Chance + Barren Glory make for a 3 card combo? :(
On a sidenote, I finally built this deck in paper, been loving it. Thanks for the great deck! I definately think Sol Ring deserves a slot in the deck though, even with how hungry this deck is for colored mana.
I also think I found another 4 card combo in Retraction helix, Retraction Helix + Jeskai Ascendancy + Chrome Mox + any creature should create an infinite amount of Golems, looting and power/toughness boost. Helix is also just a cheap piece of interaction that can bounce any problematic permanent as long as someone has a creature without summoning sickness and is willing to bounce it.

EDIT: Whoops, not Golems, that's a different combo :p
Last edited by ThatOneGuyJesse 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Toshi » 3 years ago

ThatOneGuyJesse wrote:
3 years ago
I was wondering, wouldn't Mind Over Matter + Leave // Chance + Barren Glory make for a 3 card combo?
Unless i'm mistaking it is not.
Since discarding cards to Mind Over Matter is part of the activation cost, not part of the effect. Therefor you'll end up with Barren Glory and Mind Over Matter on the board at best.

A few years back the only time i lost to Barren Glory was when an opponent disposed of all his stuff with Claws of Gix and Patchwork Gnomes - which was hilarious.

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Post by Sefir » 3 years ago

ThatOneGuyJesse wrote:
3 years ago
I was wondering, wouldn't Mind Over Matter + Leave // Chance + Barren Glory make for a 3 card combo? :(
Not really. You also need to donate MOM (making Zedruu the 4th piece of the combo) and survive a turn if you didn't do it instantly.
The usual combo is Temporal Cascade (or Nahiri's Wrath) + Leave // Chance + Barren Glory. And even then, it is not considered a 3 card combo because you need to survive a turn. The full combo is with either doing it at instant speed ot taking an extra turn as well (making Vedalken Orray, Leyline of Anticipation or Temporal Mastery the 4th piece of the combo). Which is usually set by multiple Mirror of Fates, mind you......

On another note, I am still playing Smothering Tithe in the deck and I discovered it combos with Alhammaret's Archive, MOM and Mikokoro. :)
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

ThatOneGuyJesse wrote:
3 years ago
Long time lurker of this thread, first time poster.
I was wondering, wouldn't Mind Over Matter + Leave // Chance + Barren Glory make for a 3 card combo? :(
To add to the responses these lovely people have already given, it's pretty hard to do this way even with counting Zedruu, because donating Mind Over Matter is an incredibly dangerous play. It's just so powerful an effect, it's difficult to give to someone and have them not be able to answer Barren Glory somehow. If you can avoid donating MOM, I recommend it. This can be done by discarding to MOM, floating all the mana you need, but holding on to like a Catch // Release or Nahiri, the Harbinger in hand and Zedruu in play, and then removing MOM and donating whatever else is left with Zedruu. If you need to avoid having Zedruu donated back by someone, you can tap them out with MOM and then switch phases so they don't have mana.
On a sidenote, I finally built this deck in paper, been loving it. Thanks for the great deck! I definately think Sol Ring deserves a slot in the deck though, even with how hungry this deck is for colored mana.
I don't play Sol Ring on principle. I think the format is better when nobody does. It's definitely a good card though, so if you play Sol Ring, you probably should
.
I also think I found another 4 card combo in Retraction helix, Retraction Helix + Jeskai Ascendancy + Chrome Mox + any creature should create an infinite amount of Golems, looting and power/toughness boost. Helix is also just a cheap piece of interaction that can bounce any problematic permanent as long as someone has a creature without summoning sickness and is willing to bounce it.
That's not bad. I do love combo pieces that are also interaction, and I have been short a perfect infinite with Jeskai Ascendancy since I took out Strionic Resonator. The only issue is that it doesn't require 2 Retraction Helix to go infinite. 1 copy on any creature lets it tap to bounce Chrome Mox, which then casts for free to untap the creature and loot, which means with 3 cards I draw the entire deck. I suppose I could rationalize needing the creature in the first place as the 4th part, but I might see if I can make that more unwieldy.
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Post by Sefir » 3 years ago

ThatOneGuyJesse wrote:
3 years ago
I also think I found another 4 card combo in Retraction helix, Retraction Helix + Jeskai Ascendancy + Chrome Mox + any creature should create an infinite amount of Golems, looting and power/toughness boost.
How is the infinite amount of Golems achieved without either Precursion Golem or Cavalier of Dawn shenanigans?
This combo can also be used with any other 0 or mana neutral non-creature artifact (like Pentad Prism or Lotus Petal) in the place of Chrome mox, while also producing infinite colorless mana if Sol Ring is used instead.
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

Sefir wrote:
3 years ago
How is the infinite amount of Golems achieved without either Precursion Golem or Cavalier of Dawn shenanigans?
This combo can also be used with any other 0 or mana neutral non-creature artifact (like Pentad Prism or Lotus Petal) in the place of Chrome mox, while also producing infinite colorless mana if Sol Ring is used instead.
I'm not sure how the infinite golems were specifically intended, but it's fair to say that when looting the entire deck is an option, you can pull out one of those golem cards and go ham just fine.

Doing the loop with Chrome Mox is decidedly more dangerous than other free stuff, because Chrome Mox gets to still do its best Skirge Familiar impression, which combined with the looting is going to end the game immediately with just a half-dozen cards in hand. With Lotus Petal or Pentad Prism, you now need Jeskai Ascendancy, Banishing Knack, the free artifact, a creature without summoning sickness, and the mana to end the game to do that combo and not have to wait a turn or two to try to win. Yes, Banishing Knack, it's the same card with a better name. Between that and the Lotus Petal that might be waiting in the mailbox for me right now, that might be a good moment to swap Chrome Mox for Lotus Petal, 1-to-1.
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Post by Sefir » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
Doing the loop with Chrome Mox is decidedly more dangerous than other free stuff, because Chrome Mox gets to still do its best Skirge Familiar impression, which combined with the looting is going to end the game immediately with just a half-dozen cards in hand. With Lotus Petal or Pentad Prism, you now need Jeskai Ascendancy, Banishing Knack, the free artifact, a creature without summoning sickness, and the mana to end the game to do that combo and not have to wait a turn or two to try to win. Yes, Banishing Knack, it's the same card with a better name. Between that and the Lotus Petal that might be waiting in the mailbox for me right now, that might be a good moment to swap Chrome Mox for Lotus Petal, 1-to-1.
If you want to also activate Chrome Mox for each time you play and bounce it, is going to take huge resources from your hand. -1 nonland card for every time you play it to be precise. Yes, it is an just an extra option that gives extra mana (if you don't just want to play it vanilla up-and-down like the other neutral mana artifacts), but it requires you to have a VERY big hand to actively have any serious impact imho. Or having somethng that gives extra cards for each play, like Whirlwind of Thought or Alhammaret's Archive. All the artifacts are good in their own way. I say play them all. :)
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

Sefir wrote:
3 years ago
If you want to also activate Chrome Mox for each time you play and bounce it, is going to take huge resources from your hand. -1 nonland card for every time you play it to be precise. Yes, it is an just an extra option that gives extra mana (if you don't just want to play it vanilla up-and-down like the other neutral mana artifacts), but it requires you to have a VERY big hand to actively have any serious impact imho. Or having somethng that gives extra cards for each play, like Whirlwind of Thought or Alhammaret's Archive. All the artifacts are good in their own way. I say play them all. :)
So, there are kind of 3 ways a combo loses value by having more pieces. 1 is the exponentially lower chances of drawing the cards; not playing all 3 helps pass this test even if the 4th piece is "any creature". 2 is the vulnerability to removal; this combo loses to artifact, creature, and enchantment removal, and counterspells, so it passes that test. 3 is amount of resources required to go from zero to win the game.

Imagine this not that exceptional a game. Turn 2, you play Howling Mine. Turn 3 you do nothing. Turn 4 you play Zedruu and a Chrome Mox you just drew (and thought "you showed up a little late"). So turn 5, you've got 8 cards in hand, 4 lands and a Mox and Zedruu in play. Cast Jeskai Ascendancy and Banishing Knack, the combo is active with 6 cards in hand and 1 mana to spare. Loot the entire deck until the 6 cards are Crystalline Crawler, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Forbidden Orchard, a red card, a white card, and a blue card. Play Forbidden Orchard and tap for black or green, flicker through the combo to make red, white, and blue. Cast Crawler with 4 counters. Remove all 4 and use the one left from the lands that started in play for Kiki-Jiki. Go through the combo infinite times choosing not to loot to make infinite crawlers that are infinitely large and hasty.

The ability to spew resources like that in one turn takes something as innocent as turn 2 Mine, turn 4 Zedruu and makes the game end deterministically on turn 5. Pentad Prism or Lotus Petal would require at least an extra turn of slowdown. And that's just the first deterministic thing I thought of. You could even more lazily just set up the combo with 7 cards still in hand, cast Chrome Mox infinite times, and Mind's Desire the library. I'm ok with winning out of nowhere, but that's all a little too out of nowhere. A 3.5-card combo that both finds the win condition and pays for it is a different beast than one that can only dig.
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Post by ThatOneGuyJesse » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
I'm ok with winning out of nowhere, but that's all a little too out of nowhere. A 3.5-card combo that both finds the win condition and pays for it is a different beast than one that can only dig.
Not to mention that it also combos with Crystalline Crawler which makes the combo even easier. If you're also playing Sol Ring that makes for a very easy combo once you're holding Jeskai Ascendancy and Retraction Helix, it's closer to a 2.5 combo than a 4 card combo at that point I think, even if you're technically using 4 cards.

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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

ThatOneGuyJesse wrote:
3 years ago
Not to mention that it also combos with Crystalline Crawler which makes the combo even easier. If you're also playing Sol Ring that makes for a very easy combo once you're holding Jeskai Ascendancy and Retraction Helix, it's closer to a 2.5 combo than a 4 card combo at that point I think, even if you're technically using 4 cards.
If you mean to say Crystalline Crawler can make infinite mana while you combo with other things, you are correct. If you mean to say Crystalline Crawler can act as the free thing to bounce up and down, that's not accurate, as it's a creature spell and won't trigger Jeskai Ascendancy.

Sol Ring does, in fact, absolutely break the combo in half though. You're spot on there. You make infinite colorless mana, draw whatever you want, filter the mana to color with mana rocks, play whatever spells you feel like. It's easy deterministic win very quickly.
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Post by ThatOneGuyJesse » 3 years ago

Whoops, I keep messing up when I try actually writing out the combos. Massive kudos for writing that whole primer and only having some minor mistakes.

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tstorm823
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

ThatOneGuyJesse wrote:
3 years ago
Whoops, I keep messing up when I try actually writing out the combos. Massive kudos for writing that whole primer and only having some minor mistakes.
Thank you! It's all time and practice.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

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Sefir
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Post by Sefir » 3 years ago

Today I discovered that Flawless Maneuver doesn't require you to have your commander in play to cast it for free. You must have A commander. I proudly stole my opponent's Brokkos with an instant speed Role Reversal and saved my board from a mass removal. :)
Zedruu the Greathearted 4-Card Combos Puzzlebox
Gluntch, the Bestower Controlled Hug
Sliver Queen Enchantress
Dakkon Blackblade Miracles Control
Teneb, the Harvester Pestilence
Soul of Windgrace Loam Balance
Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Saclands
Phelddagrif Hippo Factory Lifegain
Riku of Two Reflections Dragon's Approach
Damia, Sage of Stone Casual Food Chain

DrKillenger
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Post by DrKillenger » 3 years ago

So on a whim I decided to toss Part the Waterveil into my deck on a whim since you mentioned I can Radiate it if you pay for the Awaken cost.

Well that didn't happen, but what DID happen is that I cast it on a Contested War Zone, took my extra turn, then hit it with a Mirroweave into smacking someone with a Wandering Fumarole to steal 10+ creatures.

God I love this insane deck... I'm so glad I found this primer haha.

On a separate note, I've tried both Valakut Awakening and Sea Gate Restoration in my deck and have been thoroughly enjoying them. Have you had a chance to test any of the MDFC's yourself yet?

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tstorm823
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

DrKillenger wrote:
3 years ago
On a separate note, I've tried both Valakut Awakening and Sea Gate Restoration in my deck and have been thoroughly enjoying them. Have you had a chance to test any of the MDFC's yourself yet?
I've been playing with the 3 mythic flip lands, and funny enough the red one is the one that's most often been a spell. Shatterskull Smashing // Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass with Swans of Bryn Argoll is silly. Mostly though, it's really nice to be at 35-36 lands while still having a ton going on.
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."

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Post by DrKillenger » 3 years ago

I gotta say I'm pretty underwhelmed by the white mythic, sure you could always just play it as a land, but the spell side seems like it's only really good with a flash enabler out compared to something like Flawless Maneuver, so if it's just going to be a land 98% of the time I almost don't see the point. Playing it at Sorcery speed is just going to make people wait a turn cycle to play a board wipe, or in the case of something like Rift or Deluge it's not going to hinder them at all.

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