Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

[tstorm823]

RIP Vanish Into Memory. :'(

We'll see. There is far from a guarantee all the new stuff works out.

Edit: then again, I have cut down pretty hard on the in-deck synergies with it as of late. It hit someone else's creature, Precursor Golem, or I'm not doing much drawing.

[DrKillenger]

So I meant to comment back on this thread like two weeks ago, but I got distracted by irl stuff as well as making the incredibly shortsighted decision to write my own Primer for my favorite deck to help me forget that I'm trapped in my house for the foreseeable future thanks to COVID-19 (seriously though, I don't know how I was so disillusioned not to realize how much work typing this thing up would be).

I've made some changes to my list since my last comment, a couple inspired by your own response to it, a few more inspired by my own boredom and wanting to play with dumb cards that do dumb things.

I took out Humble Defector to make some room for other stuff and lo and behold, I didn't really miss it. I still think I could use it in my deck if I ever felt the need to, but I was surprised how much I didn't really feel it's absence, so I think you may have been right. I also took out Spark Double for Sakashima, I didn't realize until about a week ago that his price had dropped dramatically at some point so I was much more willing to pick up a copy.

I added in Stuffy Doll|tsp and Volcano Hellion. I got to use these two together just last night and MAN can they do some gross stuff, individually and as a combo:

Stuffy Doll+Hellion basically says "If I have more life than you do, you're dead".

Hellion+Swans=Necrologia.

Hellion+Jeskai Charm= kill a thing and double your life total.

Hellion+Stuffy Doll+Jeskai Charm=triple your life total and kill someone.

Stuffy Doll+Golden Guardian+infinite mana straight up kills someone, you can Leave the Doll after someone is dead and recast it to kill someone else, or just clone it targeting another player.

Stuffy Doll+Jeskai Ascendancy can rack up damage on someone real quick.

Stuffy Doll+Firestorm you can basically double-dip on damage to a player by targeting the Doll.

Stuffy Doll+Mirrorweave, while unfortunately they don't copy the player assignment that the OG Doll has leading to damage shenanigans, this can be used as a Fog similarly to Golden Guardian and Walking Atlas, you can also completely null any boardwipe that isn't mass bounce or exile this way.

I've also added Radiate and Expansion // Explosion to my deck but I've yet to get a chance to play them. I've seen firsthand the stupid things that Precursor Golem can enable in this deck, and I figure Radiate is just another way to do that, and it just so happens to be able to be copied with Bonus Round and put under Eye of the Storm (also Radiate+Catch is hilarious). Both modes of Expansion // Explosion are great imo, Expansion has tons of good targets in this deck, and Explosion is another big X burn spell, that can also double as a board wipe/mass card draw with Radiate or Precursor Golem, it even says "any target" and "target player draws" with enough mana/copies you could literally mill out one player while burning the other two to death.

Edit: Also, what do you think about Paradoxical Outcome? It seems almost like both halves of Leave // Chance stapled together (almost, you can't bounce stuff you've donated, but you can bounce stuff you've stolen and draw for it)

Lastly, here's a shameless plug for my new Primer: Morophon Changeling Tribal viewtopic.php?f=35&t=25093

[tstorm823]

So I meant to comment back on this thread like two weeks ago, but I got distracted by irl stuff as well as making the incredibly shortsighted decision to write my own Primer for my favorite deck to help me forget that I'm trapped in my house for the foreseeable future thanks to COVID-19 (seriously though, I don't know how I was so disillusioned not to realize how much work typing this thing up would be).

Yeah, it's quite the task. I envy the raw enthusiasm of those that make threads like that for all their decks.

I added in Stuffy Doll|tsp and Volcano Hellion. I got to use these two together just last night and MAN can they do some gross stuff, individually and as a combo:

I love both these cards, both individually and as a combo. I do play both of them in other decks. I will say if someone else is reading this and wants different fun cards to try, these two are bonkers fun. And also exactly the sort of card I like, weird and wacky at their best, but also very useful as a floor. One is removal, the other is a mega-blocker. And Stuffy Doll has some serious teamwork applications if one player just needs to die. (hint: attack someone else, Stuffy Doll ain't no wall.)

that can also double as a board wipe/mass card draw with Radiate or Precursor Golem, it even says "any target" and "target player draws" with enough mana/copies you could literally mill out one player while burning the other two to death.

Unfortunately, this part doesn't work. Both Radiate and Precursor Golem specify that the spell needs to have a single target. Expansion // Explosion always has two targets, so it can't be Radiated by either. I heavily considered the card, but it's got so many non-synergies like that. It copies spells, but not the stuff that's super busted to copy like Time Spiral or Temporal Mastery. Both sides are misses with the effects that cast spells for free. It just a tad awkward in too many ways for me to like it.

Radiate is awesome though. It's 100% the sort of card I would make substantial deck changes to maximize the potential. Did you know that if you pay for awaken on Part the Waterveil, it's a targeted spell? Yes, I would like 8 consecutive turns with an army of 6/6s, thank you. Side note: Part the Waterveil is a constant consideration for this deck. It's an easy switch in for an existing card that also sets up man-land shenanigans that I enjoy.

Edit: Also, what do you think about Paradoxical Outcome? It seems almost like both halves of Leave // Chance stapled together (almost, you can't bounce stuff you've donated, but you can bounce stuff you've stolen and draw for it)

Nonland, nontoken hurts. It doesn't clear the board for Barren Glory, nor does is dig as deep as Leave // Chance on a last ditch desperation play. It's a very strong card, but again, this deck is piled with hyper-specific interactions, and Paradoxical Outcome doesn't meet those needs.

Lastly, here's a shameless plug for my new Primer: Morophon Changeling Tribal viewtopic.php?f=35&t=25093

I looked, I liked, I haven't read it yet, but it's very pretty looking! 10/10, would recommend.

[Wallycaine]

While probably not what you generally want to be doing, Expansion // Explosion can be radiated... if you picked the same target for both parts. So if you have the highest life total and/or number of cards, it works out great. But the typical use case doesn't work with Radiate, and it can't work with precursor at all.

[tstorm823]

While probably not what you generally want to be doing, Expansion // Explosion can be radiated... if you picked the same target for both parts. So if you have the highest life total and/or number of cards, it works out great. But the typical use case doesn't work with Radiate, and it can't work with precursor at all.

Fair enough, with the added caveat that you don't need the most life/deck size, you just target yourself with the original and let Radiate resolve first. I don't know how many games I've ever had that amount of mana available, and the ones I have, I certainly could win any way I wanted with Explosion drawing my deck, but I am the person who would play Radiate on Fireball to end a game, so i can't really knock it.

[DrKillenger]

And Stuffy Doll has some serious teamwork applications if one player just needs to die. (hint: attack someone else, Stuffy Doll ain't no wall.)

Oh yeah, that's a classic move. I helped a friend of mine put together a Modern deck when he was first getting into the game that was all about putting Stuffy Dolls under a Prototype Portal to make tons of them and then kill the other player with something like Blasphemous Act or Pyrohemia and after seeing it in action I got pretty jealous of how cool it was. I'm glad I finally have an EDH deck that makes it do similarly nutty stuff

Unfortunately, this part doesn't work. Both Radiate and Precursor Golem specify that the spell needs to have a single target. Expansion // Explosion always has two targets, so it can't be Radiated by either.

While probably not what you generally want to be doing, Expansion // Explosion can be radiated... if you picked the same target for both parts. So if you have the highest life total and/or number of cards, it works out great. But the typical use case doesn't work with Radiate, and it can't work with precursor at all.

Yeeeeeah, I probably shouldn't have made that post immediately after finishing writing my primer while my brain was still fried, I look at so many cards so often that sometimes I just assume I know how a card works without actually rereading it and checking. On that note I just noticed that Volcano Hellion+Swans doesn't work either since Hellion's damage can't be prevented which makes me sad.

I heavily considered the card, but it's got so many non-synergies like that. It copies spells, but not the stuff that's super busted to copy like Time Spiral or Temporal Mastery. Both sides are misses with the effects that cast spells for free. It just a tad awkward in too many ways for me to like it.

That's fair. My logic is that it still has plenty of good targets in the deck (granted I'm not running Time Spiral due to budgetary constraints) and even if Expansion isn't worth casting, Explosion can still be worthwhile just as a burn spell+draw X spell that can also double-dip with Swans, and even if I can't do Radiate shenanigans reliably, I can still copy it with Bonus Round if I want (and copy Bonus Round with Expansion if I so choose as well).

Did you know that if you pay for awaken on Part the Waterveil, it's a targeted spell? Yes, I would like 8 consecutive turns with an army of 6/6s, thank you.

*furiously taking notes*

Nonland, nontoken hurts. It doesn't clear the board for Barren Glory, nor does is dig as deep as Leave // Chance on a last ditch desperation play. It's a very strong card, but again, this deck is piled with hyper-specific interactions, and Paradoxical Outcome doesn't meet those needs.

Hmm. That's all very true, I haven't actually played with the card at all, I just came across it a few nights ago and the idea of Catch+Radiate+Paradoxical Outcome to bounce my opponent's boards and draw a ton of cards off of it sounded hilarious, but it's probably a bit too cute to actually be useful most of the time.

I looked, I liked, I haven't read it yet, but it's very pretty looking! 10/10, would recommend.

Thanks! Yeah I probably spent half the time it took making the primer just formatting it. Particularly the section on tribal lords, I was worried that if I didn't format it to be more visually appealing that it would just be this giant wall of text longer than the Magna Carta and no one would read it. I thought you might find it interesting because you had at one point mentioned trying out a small Changeling package in this deck, and this deck is basically that times a thousand lol.

[Boldt07]

Hey,

Been lurking for a while and love the deck. I have the nonlands almost the same as you do in your previous post, except Barren Glory, Time Walk, Narset's Reversal, Firestorm, Nahiri's Wrath and Vanish into Memory are not included, instead I use Dissipation Field, Memnite, Phyrexian Metamorph, Ephemeral Shields, Shifting Borders and Alammaharret's Archive.

The lands I do not have many, due mostly to cost. I am okay with it mostly as I have some good subs (Grand Coliseum, Mana Confluence) and some crappy tap lands that I just live with.

A few questions for you; how useful do you find the lands that turn to creatures and what do you find their primary use is for you while playing this deck? Also do use Thespians Stage to target your own lands or opponents mostly? If your own, which ones mainly?

Finally, I see that you keep evolving your deck while still staying fairly true to your OG favorites. Do you ever find yourself going back to old combos that you miss or is it just a constant progression?

Thanks again for the awesome deck! Still waiting for my first Mirror of Fate combo!!

[tstorm823]

A few questions for you; how useful do you find the lands that turn to creatures and what do you find their primary use is for you while playing this deck? Also do use Thespians Stage to target your own lands or opponents mostly? If your own, which ones mainly?

The manlands are generally cute guildgates. Once or twice ever have I been able to turn them into a combo finish with Jeskai Ascendancy and Eye of the Storm to make more mana than it costs to keep casting spells, but the utility is much more often sneaking in attacks at planeswalkers or 8-mana fogging with Mirrorweave or trading a land for a creature with Role Reversal. It's cute tricks that they do, nothing really groundbreaking.

So far, Thespian's Stage primarily copies my own lands, and primarily for mana fixing, and I find that perfectly alright. I'd like to target bounce lands, but Command Tower is a fine target. It's a funny card in that it can occasionally ramp and occasionally copy really busted stuff, but more than half the time for me it ends up impersonating Rupture Spire, which I have no problem with because I've played a lot of Rupture Spire in my career. By no means am I doing anything with Thespian's Stage to justify it's infamy, but I had one and I've enjoyed it so far.

Finally, I see that you keep evolving your deck while still staying fairly true to your OG favorites. Do you ever find yourself going back to old combos that you miss or is it just a constant progression?

If I do go back, it's likely because a new card exists that makes going back easy. And honestly, there's not much in the past left behind. Memnite combo got cut, and I loved that one, but otherwise I've retained most of the combos I've played. There was a brief infinite mana combo with Price of Glory that wasn't great and I regret nothing dropping it, there were lists of things that required Tidespout Tyrant or Mind Over Matter, and I have no desire to resurrect those monsters right now, and probably not ever unless I'm dumped into a very powerful meta and need to adapt to it. I will say, I'm basically always asking myself if I can add Kiki-Jiki and if I get anything out of adding it. I don't often look back for nostalgia's sake, but I definitely recheck my list of prior cuts every time I have something new I want to try.

Thanks again for the awesome deck! Still waiting for my first Mirror of Fate combo!!

Thank you, and good luck!

[tstorm823]

To give sort of a rollback update, I did sort of get chances to try out changes. Not really, I tried out slips of paper with names scribbled on them, cause the only new card I actually acquired so far is Whirlwind of Thought by random chance from a pack, and it's actually the only one I haven't really tried all that much. I don't feel any pressure to try that one, it's effect is pretty obvious, it will get it's place in due time after I figure out the moving parts.

Easy stuff: Triome is cool, Electrodominance is sick so far, Manascape Refractor coming in tapped is too big a downside. It's one of those cards that sort of plays badly with itself. It doesn't feel like a priority early on because it's power scales as more interesting lands are played, but if you don't play it early as a bad Manalith, or if you don't draw it til late, you see the sweet play opportunity and go "crap, it comes into play tapped". And that feels bad, which really is what I don't want, so I'm not gonna play it.

Medium stuff: Flawless Maneuver is exactly as sleek as free interaction has ever been in magic. Of my few casts of it, one of them was turn 0 Leyline of Anticipation, turn 2 signet, turn 3 Zedruu the Greathearted, turn 4 flash in Opalescence plus 0-mana maneuver in response to Reclamation Sage on my Leyline. It just aggressively disappoints people. BUT Cryptic Trilobite has been like a middling ramp card, and Archangel of Thune continues to be that exact card that fits the combos but I don't like playing it.

Hard stuff: BUT! even if I pull back on the angel and the trilobyte, I really want Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison to be a sweet combo piece. I really, really do. It just feels like such a not good card, but then it is for me all the time. Like Barren Glory and Leave // Chance did in the past, Golden Guardian is a card I thought I was adding just to be cheesy and then it became a pet card on merit. And then, to make it a sweet combo, I feel like the best thing it pairs with is an A+ start, Swans of Bryn Argoll. Those two together let me pay 2, draw 4, get my two mana back. If two other cards could reset the guardian, it could loop. Or if Flawless Maneuver is part 3, I just need a card to turn cards in hand into mana without being Mind Over Matter... unless it just is Mind Over Matter. Imma look for other possibilities for probably a couple weeks since there's not much magic playing at the moment, but I think as far as too combo-y, I'd just need to sub back out Temple Bell to make it a safe add, I think. It is karma that like a day after I tell someone I have no desire to resurrect that monster I find myself wanting to resurrect that monster, but then the draw doublers and Land Tax aren't here to feed it anymore, so maybe it's, ya know, fair... enough.

[lyonhaert]

I just need a card to turn cards in hand into mana

Yeah, too bad Skirge Familiar is the wrong color (although it's been fantastic in Chainer). After some searching on Scryfall, it really does appear that MOM is the only other thing that can turn cards into mana that directly.

[tstorm823]

I just need a card to turn cards in hand into mana

Yeah, too bad Skirge Familiar is the wrong color (although it's been fantastic in Chainer). After some searching on Scryfall, it really does appear that MOM is the only other thing that can turn cards into mana that directly.

It's fantastic in Olivia, Mobilized for War as well. Skirge Familiar has been a favorite of mine for a long time. I think MoM would make me cut Nin, the Pain Artist too. Those two with Gilded Lotus set off drawing the whole deck with like 5 cards in card. Mind Over Matter is busted nonsense, it's amazing how little play it sees, it's actually in fewer decks on edhrec than Skirge Familiar.

[DrKillenger]

Man, I really have to give you credit. This deck is a blast to play, it surprises me every time I play it. Last night I managed to Mirrorweave Precursor Golem, then cast Fractured Identity on one followed by an Echo Storm, after a whole bunch of math I had like 55k Golems and I just couldn't stop laughing the rest of the night.

Mind Over Matter is busted nonsense, it's amazing how little play it sees, it's actually in fewer decks on edhrec than Skirge Familiar.

That's probably at least partially due to the difference in price tags if I had to guess. Though you are right, MOM is notorious enough that that is a little odd lol.

Archangel of Thune continues to be that exact card that fits the combos but I don't like playing it.

Have you considered Heliod, Sun-Crowned instead of Archangel? I've been considering it as an alternative for my deck because it goes infinite with Stuffy Doll and a copied Arcbond (as long as Heliod is a creature at least) and I dont want to shell out for a second copy of Thune since it's pricey and it's too good in my Jenara deck to cut from there.

I really want Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison to be a sweet combo piece. I really, really do.

So this is definitely jank, but Jeskai Charm+Golden Guardian+Flawless Maneuver+Treasonous Ogre makes infinite red mana and gains infinite life, just figured I'd throw that one out there since it literally just popped into my head as I was reading this post. Ogre isn't even half bad on it's own probably since Zedruu incidentally gains so much life over the course of a game.

[lyonhaert]

Jeskai Charm+Golden Guardian+Flawless Maneuver+Treasonous Ogre

Can you walk us through the math on that?

[DrKillenger]

Jeskai Charm+Golden Guardian+Flawless Maneuver+Treasonous Ogre

Can you walk us through the math on that?

Jeskai Charm gives both +1/+1 and lifelink, meaning that GG and TO have 5 and 3 power respectively. Maneuver makes them both indestructible. Pay to have Guardian fight the Ogre, gain 8 life from them damaging each other, then pay 6 life to make with Ogre and use it to activate GG again. This nets 2 life every time you do it, so eventually you can arbitrarily spend life to make as much red mana as you want.

Edit: Also worth noting that as long as Zedruu, Guardian, and Ogre are in play, the whole thing only costs and 9 life to kick off, which is pretty cheap.

[tstorm823]

Man, I really have to give you credit. This deck is a blast to play, it surprises me every time I play it. Last night I managed to Mirrorweave Precursor Golem, then cast Fractured Identity on one followed by an Echo Storm, after a whole bunch of math I had like 55k Golems and I just couldn't stop laughing the rest of the night.

I can't say exactly what happened since I don't know the board state specifically, but you may be undercounting. If just Precursor Golem and the two tokens exist, and you have two opponents, you Mirrorweave up to 3 Precursors Fractured Identity would trigger all 3. The first golem getting targetted wouldn't get hit multiple times, but the others multiply. 2 become 4 with 8 tokens, becomes 8 with 32 tokens, becomes 16 with 96 tokens (ignoring who controls them for ease), plus twice the original target. So 18 Precursors and 100 vanilla golem tokens. Then Echo Storm doubles all but one of those 18 times, which means 4,718,592 Precursor Golems, and something like 30,000,000 vanilla tokens. With 3 opponents and adding just Zedruu to the board, it's 1.64 x 10^27 Precursor Golems and a couple vanilla tokens here and there.

Have you considered Heliod, Sun-Crowned instead of Archangel? I've been considering it as an alternative for my deck because it goes infinite with Stuffy Doll and a copied Arcbond (as long as Heliod is a creature at least) and I dont want to shell out for a second copy of Thune since it's pricey and it's too good in my Jenara deck to cut from there.

Heliod being both the source of lifelink and the payoff makes it more dangerous to add as far as avoiding easy combos, and because it's counters are only one creature at a time, it's 4-card loop with Golden Guardian gives me infinite life with Crystalline Crawler or infinite life and colorless mana for abilities with Cryptic Trilobite, which I'd prefer to avoid. Going infinite and not winning is not a great thing. But it is less fragile than the angel and redundancy for Jeskai Charm/Arcbond, so I'll think about it.

So this is definitely jank, but Jeskai Charm+Golden Guardian+Flawless Maneuver+Treasonous Ogre makes infinite red mana and gains infinite life, just figured I'd throw that one out there since it literally just popped into my head as I was reading this post. Ogre isn't even half bad on it's own probably since Zedruu incidentally gains so much life over the course of a game.

Treasonous Ogre isn't half bad without life gain, it gain ramp you straight from 4 mana to 10, that card is very good. A+ suggestion.

[DrKillenger]

1.64 x 10^27 Precursor Golems and a couple vanilla tokens here and there.

Yeah, apparently I'm bad at math lol. Though to be fair the actual number was kind of irrelevant because Pandemonium killed everyone, and I kind of rushed through the equation because I didnt want to spend 20 minutes explaining to everyone how badly I just overkilled them and make someone salty haha.

The main thing that drew me to Heliod in particular was his indestructibility and ability to give Stuffy Doll and Volcano Hellion lifelink on-demand, so it might not be as valuable for you since you aren't running them. I just figured I'd mention it since him and AoT do very similar things.

Treasonous Ogre isn't half bad without life gain, it gain ramp you straight from 4 mana to 10, that card is very good. A+ suggestion.

I used to play Marchesa, the Black Rose and that deck taught me just how strong Ogre can be, so it's one of those cards that's perpetually in the back of my mind whenever I'm building or discussing a deck in it's colors. Moreso in a deck like this where you gain lots of life incidentally, in Marchesa I actually had to be somewhat frugal with it since there were so many other things that wanted me to pay life in the deck and I'd take a lot of aggro when playing her.

The more I talk about it, I might squeeze him into my list as well. Since I'm running Illusions of Grandeur and tricks like Volcano Hellion/Stuffy Doll+lifelink to gain huge swaths of life in one turn, translating all of that life into mana for Electrodominance or Expansion // Explosion is worth consideration for sure. At the very least it's a lot easier than flipping Azor's Gateway, even if it's less explosive as a trade-off.

[DrKillenger]

This is kind of a garbage card in general, but your thoughts on Cryptic Trilobite made me wonder, have you ever thought about Gemstone Array? If you went infinite with Trilobite it would let you filter all of that colorless mana into colored mana that you could use on anything you want, not just abilities. It also has the fringe benefit of being able to store mana made by Sanctum of the Sun for use on other phases/turns.

It's definitely a bad card, but if there was ever a deck that could spin that lead into gold it's this one

[tstorm823]

This is kind of a garbage card in general, but your thoughts on Cryptic Trilobite made me wonder, have you ever thought about Gemstone Array? If you went infinite with Trilobite it would let you filter all of that colorless mana into colored mana that you could use on anything you want, not just abilities. It also has the fringe benefit of being able to store mana made by Sanctum of the Sun for use on other phases/turns.

It's definitely a bad card, but if there was ever a deck that could spin that lead into gold it's this one

This is not the first time Gemstone Array has had potential appeal, but it's not worth it. It's not good independently, costing net 5 mana before doing anything, and it's not gonna be built into like 20 combos. Decks with cost reduces or counter doubling nonsense could certainly use it to great effect, but you've got to be all in on something this do nothing before it's a good add. There is definitely a world where you do something sweet like Saheeli, Sublime Artificer an Eternity Vessel into Gemstone Array, but that'd probably require building a deck from the ground up.

[tstorm823]

Upon further consideration, Mind Over Matter would in fact require 3 different cuts.

1) Temple Bell is a two card combo.
2) Nin, the Pain Artist is a three card combo with anything that taps for more than one mana.
3) Strionic Resonator is a three card combo with Zedruu and 3 or more things donated.

And since MOM is a mana enabler, setting up the other parts is trivially easy to do all in one turn. So, that probably means I'm not going back down that route, but with much more time to think about Magic than actually play it atm, I'm exploring the rabbit hole in my mind.

I would play Mind Over Matter to get the Swans of Bryn Argoll/Golden Guardian/Flawless Maneuver combo that draws the whole deck. No offence to the Treasonous Ogre version suggested above, but what I like most about this way of doing it is that the end result will be drawing the deck with MOM in play, which inevitably opens up the Zedruu donate everything Barren Glory win, which is one of my favorite things in the whole world. Mind Over Matter is, in my experience, the fast track to winning with Barren Glory.

A second bonus is that the Flawless Maneuver part of the combo is much more flexible. Because Swans is self-protected, all it takes is protection for Golden Guardian to let them fight forever. Single creature indestructible effects, protection from blue or white, effects that shrink the Swans power to zero, effects that prevent damage dealt by Swans. Part of the appeal of Flawless Maneuver is having 0-mana protection in hand, but there's appeal to these other things too, as some of them can be auras, and auras can be donated, and I'm currently largely missing that quintessential Zedruu trick. I have no cheap auras to donate. A card like Temporal Isolation would complete the combo while also being a nifty Pacifism variant that can be donated for value.

The other Zedruu trick I'm lacking is the Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker trick, where you donate a token copy of something and therefore cannot sacrifice it at end of turn. Kiki-Jiki is, amazingly enough, already a safe add I think. The classic Kiki trick is to copy something that untaps Kiki and swing for infinite. I think the only thing I have that could do something like that is Unbender Tine, but that requires March of the Machines to target and has to tap to untap Kiki which means it doesn't do anything without either Pandemonium or something that untaps all of my creatures, so that's still 4 pieces. And if I added that at the same time as Mind Over Matter, I could do some neat things. Obviously, every card in hand is an Inferno Titan is a pretty sweet finite 3 card setup. Add in Swans for another full deck drawing blowout. Or Swans with Pandemonium drawing 4 and discarding 1 likely is enough damage to end the game.

And then, there's a chance to try again at using Floating-Dream Zubera, one of my pet Mirrorweave targets. With Kiki, you can draw 1 card a turn by default. With Kiki and MOM, you can draw the sum of the series of positive integers less than or equal to the number of cards in your hand once per turn. With Kiki, MOM, and Pandemonium, you loot through the whole library. If the phrase "draw the sum of the series of positive integers less than or equal to the number of cards in your hand" makes you happy, then you probably understand my desire to make these contraptions playable..

[DrKillenger]

Random anecdote, but I lend my decks out to other players in my friend group quite frequently, and the thought just occurred to me that the Precursor Golem in this deck kind of hard counters my entire Changeling deck.

Catch can steal basically my entire board, and any random removal spell from anyone is basically a boardwipe against me unless I've got Drogskol Captain and/or Knight Exemplar online.

I'm gonna have to make sure these two decks never come into contact from now on lol

Edit: Also I never knew Kiki-Jiki worked like that, I've always wanted a home for that card and this is such a janky way to use him I might have to go for it myself

[tstorm823]

Even better idea: do lend the decks in such a way as to let that happen, and see if they notice the interaction. I have had someone try to Eidolon of Rhetoric lock me with my own Knowledge Pool, not appreciating that I already had Venser, the Sojourner in play. Mistakes happen.

The awesome thing is that Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker does work that way. Not every temporary clone works that way. Heat Shimmer does not, because the token has the ability making the controller sacrifice it rather than a delayed trigger. The less awesome thing is that I seem to have misplaced my copy of the card. Oops.

[DrKillenger]

Even better idea: do lend the decks in such a way as to let that happen, and see if they notice the interaction. I have had someone try to Eidolon of Rhetoric lock me with my own Knowledge Pool, not appreciating that I already had Venser, the Sojourner in play. Mistakes happen.

That's hilarious. Talk about putting someone in their place haha.

I know you've said you deliberately avoided cards that create locks with Possibility Storm and Knowledge Pool, but I popped Lavinia, Azorius Renegade into my list because there are a couple of other Storm decks in my meta that can abuse the cards just as much if not more than I can, and it's practically the only way to keep them from running away with the game before I can. It's a feel-bad combo to be sure, but the way I see it, the people I play with already hate Pool and Storm to the point that they're giant removal targets (and rightly so if I'm being fair) so adding something that makes it 20% more hateable but 1000% more resilient is basically pure upside.

That being said so far I've only played Lavinia with one of them out a single time, and it was entirely on accident thanks to Possibility Storm, but I like having the option there.

The awesome thing is that Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker does work that way. Not every temporary clone works that way. Heat Shimmer does not, because the token has the ability making the controller sacrifice it rather than a delayed trigger. The less awesome thing is that I seem to have misplaced my copy of the card. Oops.

Yeah I think this is yet another instance of me assuming I know how a card works without actually rereading it, since as you said most temporary token clones dont work like that. I really need to try and beat that habit out of myself hahaha

Losing your Kiki sucks, but at least he's nowhere near as expensive as he used to be should you have to pick up a new copy. I misplaced a copy of Survival of the Fittest I had from ages ago and it still depresses me to think about it.

[tstorm823]

Losing your Kiki sucks, but at least he's nowhere near as expensive as he used to be should you have to pick up a new copy. I misplaced a copy of Survival of the Fittest I had from ages ago and it still depresses me to think about it.

It's not lost, I'm sure. I just have a tendency to stick cuts from decks in progress into boxes and forget about them, and Kiki is a card I've considered in many places. I just have to dive into all the random boxes of cards I have lying about. Or, more likely, I'll be degenerate and buy the most expensive version of the card and just have a second copy.

[Sefir]

As much as I tried in the past, I never liked Infinite Reflection. Always found it too overcosted for what it actually did. Luckily, with the Kiki-Jiki that was proposed, my hands are untied! Cavalier can have his infinite with just the addition of a simple Lotus Petal (Kiki+Cavalier+Jeskai Ascendancy+Petal). It has the exact same result as the Reflection combo (+Infinite mana+draw your library and put tonnes of +1/+1) and the Petal is good on its own in ramping for a faster Zedruu in the early game.

[tstorm823]

As much as I tried in the past, I never liked Infinite Reflection. Always found it too overcosted for what it actually did. Luckily, with the Kiki-Jiki that was proposed, my hands are untied! Cavalier can have his infinite with just the addition of a simlpe Lotus Petal (Kiki+Cavalier+Jeskai Ascendancy+Petal). It has the exact same result as the Reflection combo (+Infinite mana) and the Petal is good on its own in ramping for a faster Zedruu in the early game.

Oooo, that's pretty nice! It also makes infinite 3/3 golems, but the infinite mana probably wins the game faster most of the time. Even outside replacing Infinite Reflection or anything else, this probably makes a reasonable case for playing Lotus Petal over Chrome Mox. The petal is pretty strictly more combo-y.

I will say, a lot of my motivation to hold onto Infinite Reflection stems from the "enchant Zedruu and donate it" play as sort of a build my own Humility, but that probably only came up so often back in the day from the glut of Mayael the Anima decks I played against. I've currently talked myself into a certain list of changes that leaves me one cut short, and my short-list of cut options is Venser, Shaper Savant, Vanish into Memory, or one of Firestorm or Nahiri's Wrath, but maybe I add Infinite Reflection to the list of possible cuts.

Also, you've now made me notice Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Cavalier of Dawn + Mind Over Matter with any artifact or enchantment in hand or graveyard goes infinite. That's kind of loose on the 4-card restriction. But it is a combo that requires 3 exactly specific cards, 6WWWUUUURRR, and an artifact or enchantment to pick up repeatedly, and the end result is infinite 3/3s without haste making it an infinite combo that loses to board wipes. So I think I'm willing to risk it.