Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

[Sefir]

Is anyone aware of other playgroup videos (besides Muddstah) of people playing this jank/combo type of Zedruu? I'm sure there are plenty of bad gift Zedruu vids. It was super helpful to watch others pilot Zedruu because it reinforced the idea (as the primer says) that this deck NEEDS to go off...and sometimes it simply doesn't. The Nikos Barren Glory win was awesome. I would have really struggled to piece that together. I'm not crazy about the Helm of Obedience combo with RIP, although it at least needs a tap to work. Some people in my group have run infinite Altar of Dementia combos where the whole board loses at once. Not fun, IMO.

/edit One thing that slightly disappoints me about Zedruu is that the donate ability feels very underutilized in these builds (seemed to be the case in the gameplay videos too). It makes Zedruu feel like an after thought and whether he's really a relevant commander, save for the occasional combo like Dissipation Field.

I honestly haven't seen any video footage online of this build of Zedruu apart from the game I played.
This build is quite rare because it requires a very particular playstyle, takes tonnes of thinking to build and even more time to master all its synergies and interactions. Also Zedruu is not a recommended commander to play online on camera, since donating permanents is not easy when you can't actually give the card to your opponent and they have to resort to drawings, etc.

Zedruu is one of those commanders that can be build in different ways. F.e. Muddstah's build is an enchantress one, totally different than tstorm's. There are plenty of Bad Gifts or grouphugs Zedruu to find online as well. We have even seen Zedruu Lands here! And of course this build, the "4-card combo GOAT" one. I wouldn't be surprised if more Zedruu variations exist, like stax. I think you are a little harsh on the underuse of Zedruu's ability though. Both this build and the most usual ones use the donations to a great extend, either it is for CA (tstorm's), political tool (Grouphug) or wincon (bad gifts). F.e. in my recorded game, I drew 8 cards from donations, which is usually enough for this deck to seal the deal. This couldn't have been done with other commanders on the helm. Zedruu's ability is perhaps a bit overcosted, but the card drawing potential is not something to be taken lightly!

[lyonhaert]

/edit One thing that slightly disappoints me about Zedruu is that the donate ability feels very underutilized in these builds (seemed to be the case in the gameplay videos too). It makes Zedruu feel like an after thought and whether he's really a relevant commander, save for the occasional combo like Dissipation Field.

In the video from a couple months ago where Sefir (Nikos) played Zedruu, there were definitely donations made. Donating just a couple symmetrical or useless things (eg, Pentad Prism with no counters) starts adding up when you're drawing 3 cards and gaining 2 life before you main phase. That's really all it takes for it to be noticeable to your opponents, too.

As far as other versions of Zedruu, there's also an aura-based one on these forums.

...just have fun with it and adjust the deck to my own playstyle, skill level, and group meta.

IMO this is a good approach with any deck.

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As far as difficulties over webcam:

Usually you only donate/swap a handful of things, at least with this version, and they tend to be innocuous or symmetrical. I haven't had much problem with those things over webcam. If you've got infinite mana and are donating everything for a Barren Glory win, it's ideal to get an extra turn from Temporal Mastery so that nobody untaps with those resources and actually has to know what they have, which could slow everything down. Other than that, I took Knowledge Pool out because it gets pretty bad over webcam.

[tstorm823]

As far as other versions of Zedruu, there's also an aura-based one on these forums.

Gotta give some praise to the Hunding Gjornersen thread back at mtgsalvation, Zedruu voltron is one of the most creative things I've seen, but also the moment it clicks how the deck works it just makes so much sense.

[PetrusTen]

In the video from a couple months ago where Sefir (Nikos) played Zedruu, there were definitely donations made. Donating just a couple symmetrical or useless things (eg, Pentad Prism with no counters) starts adding up when you're drawing 3 cards and gaining 2 life before you main phase. That's really all it takes for it to be noticeable to your opponents, too.

There was, but if you watch all the gameplay videos you'll find that doesn't happen reliably. Pentad prism is probably the most ideal donate, but unfortunately it's 1 out of 99.

I think you are a little harsh on the underuse of Zedruu's ability though. Both this build and the most usual ones use the donations to a great extend, either it is for CA (tstorm's), political tool (Grouphug) or wincon (bad gifts). F.e. in my recorded game, I drew 8 cards from donations, which is usually enough for this deck to seal the deal. This couldn't have been done with other commanders on the helm. Zedruu's ability is perhaps a bit overcosted, but the card drawing potential is not something to be taken lightly!

I probably could have expanded upon my remark on the donation ability a bit further. I agree that at times or in certain games, it's a notable boon. Although I'm the Zedruu noob, I've now played ~15 games with the deck and watched 6-7 of the gameplay videos, I find a useful donation engine is the exception/lucky setup, not the rule/reliable engine. To play devil's advocate further, when I pull up the youtube videos for the Muddstah battles, the first 3 videos for me (algorithms may differ), which range from the past month to 3 years ago, have either 0 or 1 donation used. I think in one of these videos Zedruu doesn't or nearly doesn't even come out despite a fair number of turns. I believe the creator of the video actually remarks in the conclusion that the donations have waned over time and may swap the commander. This has been my experience piloting the deck as well. Given something needs to cast for a cost, and then donated at a cost of WUR, it's a slow engine to setup (with very few exceptions such as Pentad Prisom). If I'm lucky enough to get two donations out, my opponents will just take out Zedruu with cheap removal and now I need to recast him at 6...yet another turn of no magic. It feels like a constant uphill battle just to get the engine going...and that's mainly my point--that in most games just trying to stay alive or setup some defense is not going to permit time to setup a donation engine unless you're playing battlecruiser style.

[Sefir]

I probably could have expanded upon my remark on the donation ability a bit further. I agree that at times or in certain games, it's a notable boon. Although I'm the Zedruu noob, I've now played ~15 games with the deck and watched 6-7 of the gameplay videos, I find a useful donation engine is the exception/lucky setup, not the rule/reliable engine. To play devil's advocate further, when I pull up the youtube videos for the Muddstah battles, the first 3 videos for me (algorithms may differ), which range from the past month to 3 years ago, have either 0 or 1 donation used. I think in one of these videos Zedruu doesn't or nearly doesn't even come out despite a fair number of turns. I believe the creator of the video actually remarks in the conclusion that the donations have waned over time and may swap the commander. This has been my experience piloting the deck as well. Given something needs to cast for a cost, and then donated at a cost of WUR, it's a slow engine to setup (with very few exceptions such as Pentad Prisom). If I'm lucky enough to get two donations out, my opponents will just take out Zedruu with cheap removal and now I need to recast him at 6...yet another turn of no magic. It feels like a constant uphill battle just to get the engine going...and that's mainly my point--that in most games just trying to stay alive or setup some defense is not going to permit time to setup a donation engine unless you're playing battlecruiser style.

Muddstah's version (enchantress) is not the typical version of Zedruu. In literally every other version of Zedruu, the donations are a very important part of the deck's playstyle. With this particular build (the tstorm one), donations are very important. I dare say that they are almost always crucial for the deck to go off. This is why the deck is full of universal effect permanents that can be donated. The best of them ofc are the cheapest ones, like Howling Mine. You need ways to protect Zedruu, either it is some kind of reactive spell (like Flawless Maneuver or Teferi's Protection) or proactive (like Possibility Storm). Rarely though a Zedruu gets targetted that early. Most people are still in "ramping/setting up their own CA engines" mode. Worst case scenario you will have a Zedruu in play and 1 donation at turn 4-5. Around T6 you can do more donations+keep mana for interaction. Ofc there are ways to speed up the process with cards like Vedalken Plotter or Gilded Drake. Αs I said earlier, the deck values time more than anything. But once the engine gets going it is superior to other Jeskai commanders. Honestly tstorm explains all these much better than I do in the first page of the primer....
However.
You don't have to follow this "turn" pattern that is suggested.
One thing that I recently learned after many, many games with the deck, is that you do not have to be in a hurry to set up the Zedruu engine. As long as you have stuff to put in play and can react to something, there is no need to overdraw yourself. You can play the control/chaos deck role and when you feel you are getting thin on cards in hand, then you set up Zedruu and its donations (that are still an important part of the deck). This is why nowdays I almost never mull a 7-card hand from Zedruu that has 3 lands and no ramp. We are perfectly fine in playing the slow, reactive game, letting our opponents killing each other while we keep our reactive cards for something special. The fact that we hit from weird angles (Mirrorweave, Arcbond, Sudden Substitution, etc) makes it all the better.



In other news, a question. In a recent game, I had to use my Mirror of Fate to put on top of my library my Temporal Mastery that was exiled with Share the Spoils. Should I had replaced the card from Share or not? I think not, but have to be sure.

[tstorm823]

Given something needs to cast for a cost, and then donated at a cost of WUR, it's a slow engine to setup (with very few exceptions such as Pentad Prisom). If I'm lucky enough to get two donations out, my opponents will just take out Zedruu with cheap removal and now I need to recast him at 6...yet another turn of no magic. It feels like a constant uphill battle just to get the engine going...and that's mainly my point--that in most games just trying to stay alive or setup some defense is not going to permit time to setup a donation engine unless you're playing battlecruiser style.

To focus in on the answer to this problem, this:

We are perfectly fine in playing the slow, reactive game, letting our opponents killing each other while we keep our reactive cards for something special. The fact that we hit from weird angles (Mirrorweave, Arcbond, Sudden Substitution, etc) makes it all the better.

Honestly, the purest expression of the Zedruu play pattern is not this deck, it's the goofy Zedruu Voltron deck. That deck plays cheap things to donate so that it can play them while holding up mana for lots of interaction. So like, on your turn, you don't play magic. You sit still with your mana open and hold up (or bluff that you have) an answer, and when the table gets back around to the end step before yours, and then donate something. Then, should you choose, you can donate in response to Zedruu's trigger and draw a card right away. 3 mana to draw a card, and then basically tell your opponents to kill it or you keep drawing is a fine rate, and if you recast Zedruu after that you're already setup to draw.

Part of the charm of my version of this deck is that you can "not play magic" for a bunch of turns, and then "oops I win" out of nowhere. This is not a battlecruiser, you don't need to develop the board or worry about using all your mana. Just be patient and interactive for a bit.

[lyonhaert]

In the video from a couple months ago where Sefir (Nikos) played Zedruu, there were definitely donations made. Donating just a couple symmetrical or useless things (eg, Pentad Prism with no counters) starts adding up when you're drawing 3 cards and gaining 2 life before you main phase. That's really all it takes for it to be noticeable to your opponents, too.

There was, but if you watch all the gameplay videos you'll find that doesn't happen reliably. Pentad prism is probably the most ideal donate, but unfortunately it's 1 out of 99.

Different deck, different pilot. That's why I was specifically referencing the one where Sefir was piloting his.

And if Muddstah isn't donating or swapping control to enable Zedruu's upkeep trigger, then he's just not using the commander anymore.

Although I'm the Zedruu noob, I've now played ~15 games with the deck and watched 6-7 of the gameplay videos, I find a useful donation engine is the exception/lucky setup, not the rule/reliable engine. To play devil's advocate further, when I pull up the youtube videos for the Muddstah battles, the first 3 videos for me (algorithms may differ), which range from the past month to 3 years ago, have either 0 or 1 donation used. I think in one of these videos Zedruu doesn't or nearly doesn't even come out despite a fair number of turns. I believe the creator of the video actually remarks in the conclusion that the donations have waned over time and may swap the commander.

It really depends on how the deck is designed and piloted, and I don't want to beat-a-dead-horse about every Muddstah video (aside from the Sefir one) where it's Muddstah piloting his own version of the lady goat, because those just should be considered the corner cases rather than exemplary of how to use this commander for her ability. So now I'll just respond to other points.

This has been my experience piloting the deck as well. Given something needs to cast for a cost, and then donated at a cost of WUR, it's a slow engine to setup (with very few exceptions such as Pentad Prism). If I'm lucky enough to get two donations out, my opponents will just take out Zedruu with cheap removal and now I need to recast him at 6...yet another turn of no magic. It feels like a constant uphill battle just to get the engine going...and that's mainly my point--that in most games just trying to stay alive or setup some defense is not going to permit time to setup a donation engine unless you're playing battlecruiser style.

So there's two facets to this I want to respond to, but they could also be subtly related:

Cost of Donation: If just using Zedruu's ability, yeah it costs rwu on top of whatever you cast. The aura-voltron versions mitigate this by using low-cost auras. This version mitigates it by using symmetrical effects, "free" stuff like Pentad Prism, and other things that exchange control (and tries to appear non-threatening about some of them). There's also the option of a control/reaction package of instants that don't rely on having Vedalken Orrery or Leyline of Anticipation that one would hold up a bit of mana for and if not used that mana could be used to activate Zedruu on the opponent's end step before your turn.

Uphill Meta: There are two things you mentioned that bring me back to something I said earlier about your meta just being difficult for Zedruu to be successful in:

• "cheap removal": If cheap creature removal is really consistent in your meta, yeah it's going to be harder to use Zedruu. The deck doesn't have to be reliant on Zedruu herself, as you could use other sources of card draw and not worry about Barren Glory, but at what point do you just use a different commander? I don't actually have much of a mental model of your meta yet, either. How do others typically win? Do any of them commit stuff to the board that's vulnerable or do use less vulnerable means?
• "two donations": This kindof relates to the above thought and questions, too, because if having donated two things - which in this deck are typically symmetrical or harmless - is enough for them to blast Zedruu - then I have to wonder if there was just nothing else on the board that was more threatening, or if there's just so much cheap removal your opponents are packing that they can afford to hit your tempo and still have answers up against other opponents.

[PetrusTen]

Muddstah's version (enchantress) is not the typical version of Zedruu. In literally every other version of Zedruu, the donations are a very important part of the deck's playstyle. With this particular build (the tstorm one), donations are very important.

Fair point. I watched a lot of gameplay videos over the course of several days so they all may have blurred together. I saw a couple overlapping cards, but you're right that the videos I watched were the enchantress versions.

Honestly, the purest expression of the Zedruu play pattern is not this deck, it's the goofy Zedruu Voltron deck. That deck plays cheap things to donate so that it can play them while holding up mana for lots of interaction. So like, on your turn, you don't play magic. You sit still with your mana open and hold up (or bluff that you have) an answer, and when the table gets back around to the end step before yours, and then donate something. Then, should you choose, you can donate in response to Zedruu's trigger and draw a card right away. 3 mana to draw a card, and then basically tell your opponents to kill it or you keep drawing is a fine rate, and if you recast Zedruu after that you're already setup to draw.

Part of the charm of my version of this deck is that you can "not play magic" for a bunch of turns, and then "oops I win" out of nowhere. This is not a battlecruiser, you don't need to develop the board or worry about using all your mana. Just be patient and interactive for a bit.

Also fair points! A couple of my playmates commented that they didn't really understand Zedruu as the commander because we are used to (as most people do) playing the most literal and synergistic themes of a commander, i.e. if your commander donates, then you should be playing a donate theme. I've struggled to make the deck go off other than having the double mirror of fate setup, so I need to keep practicing here. I have had some very crafty defensive plays that were fun and rewarding to pull off.

Uphill Meta: There are two things you mentioned that bring me back to something I said earlier about your meta just being difficult for Zedruu to be successful in:
"cheap removal": If cheap creature removal is really consistent in your meta, yeah it's going to be harder to use Zedruu. The deck doesn't have to be reliant on Zedruu herself, as you could use other sources of card draw and not worry about Barren Glory, but at what point do you just use a different commander? I don't actually have much of a mental model of your meta yet, either. How do others typically win? Do any of them commit stuff to the board that's vulnerable or do use less vulnerable means?
"two donations": This kindof relates to the above thought and questions, too, because if having donated two things - which in this deck are typically symmetrical or harmless - is enough for them to blast Zedruu - then I have to wonder if there was just nothing else on the board that was more threatening, or if there's just so much cheap removal your opponents are packing that they can afford to hit your tempo and still have answers up against other opponents.

We've been slightly better lately about having 4 player groups, but we commonly have 1v1 or 3-player games. In 1v1 there's obviously nowhere to hide so that's a problem. In a 3 player game, you have a bit more cover but will still end up getting hit if you don't have defenses up or you end up sitting on the sidelines until the end, which is technically fine but feels wrong when too many matches are played this way...and people don't seem thrilled to have a non-threat/non-existent deck at the table, which might win because it was ignored. The most recent decks people are piloting include a control deck, which often sees counters or tempo to commanders. Usually, counters are not thrown at Zedruu, but it has happened and is more likely if a donate engine is setup. Another deck run is Chatterfang, Squirrel General, which can very easily remove low toughness creatures from the board, virtually at-will.

[Sefir]

After the yesterday ban/unban announcement, I have to say it:

Is Worldfire a new Zedruu toy?

It is part of a 4-card combo, either combined with Pandemonium lines (Worldfire,Pandemonium, Vedalken Orrery/Leyline of Anticipation, Precursor Golem) or Detention Sphere lines (Worldfire, Vedalken Orrery/Leyline of Anticipation/Temporal Mastery, Detention Sphere, Barren Glory/Precursor Golem (the flash enabler/extra turn card can also be Sphinx of the Second Sun if we go for the Barren Glory line).

It also has REALLY evil synergy with Teferi's Protection, which is something I actually run. So perhaps this needs to leave, since it creates a 3-card combo (Worldfire, Teferi's Protection, Precursor Golem).

Some food for thought.

EDIT: Darn. Now that I think about it, the Detention sphere lines doesn't need the Detention Sphere if you have flash. You just play Barren Glory/Precursor Golem and with it on the stack, you Worldfire. Thus making the Barren Glory/Precursor Golem, Worldfire, Flash enabler another 3-card combo.
Worldfire is unfortunately too good...

[tstorm823]

Worldfire is unfortunately too good...

But also not something I want to play, so I'm not shedding any tears.

[jjjrrrgggnnn]

So I recently I was lucky enough to get to play some games irl with my regular pod, and thought I'd post about some of the cards I was testing out.

Share the spoils - Like a few others of you have mentioned this card did work! As an absolute floor, it gives you access to four extra cards, and it being only 2 cmc really gives you the opportunity for first dibs. Secondly, in the games I cast it, it really helped the other players hit their land drops, which just happened to be my lands, boosting up my Zedruu triggers but also keeping everyone at parity when it came to resources.
-
(Something that I've noticed is a very successful tactic when piloting this deck, the longer the game is going on, and if the other players are armed with equal mana and cards, generally the less focus is on me, and more focus on destroying whatever big nasty creatures everybody else were playing. The longer the game lasts the more ability Zedruu has to suddenly go ham and take over in one explosive turn. Share the spoils really helps dictate the game as people can see the writing on the wall if a bomb is sitting there is the Share the Spoils pile.)
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One thing I only found out today, which is a disappointment, is that you can only take one card out of Share the Spoils on your turn.

Bazaar Trader - This guy seemed like even more of a target than Zedruu herself. This gob was nuked off the board as soon as he appeared, and wasn't able to achieve much without a way to grant him haste. I'll test him for a few more games.

Flumph - This bag of gas really REALLY put in work in every game I cast it. I imagine the effectiveness of this card is really dependant on your playgroup, but mine is extremely greedy, and almost always elected to swig a big glass of Flumph juice every turn cycle, netting me a lot of cards in exchange. It was also nice to have an early blocker.
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I think Flumph really excels with the never-ending arms race that the opponents are engaged with (and perpetuated by yourself), and you can sit back and dish out card draw to choice opponents to deal with other opponents whilst you stockpile cards, waiting for Zedruu's moment.
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Flumph gets a big thumbs up from me. Go on! Huff on its gas, it's wonderful!

Sorcerer Class - I don't have much data on this one > I only cast it once and it helped a bit. I'll carry on testing it out.

[tstorm823]

Flumph gets a big thumbs up from me. Go on! Huff on its gas, it's wonderful!

I have not tried Flumph, I'm not sure how it would work with my particular brand of politics. I like to cooperate with other players using as few words as possible and making no promises, so people would have to be willing to damage Flumph without any assurance that I'd actually target them with the draw trigger.

[BananiPoodle]

Hi,
When I read the Primer, I fell in love with the deck philosophy. This is my first and only deck and I've played three games, at a 4 player table, thus far. Although I have a long way to go as a player, the primer helps a great deal!
Just wanted to say a big thank you for sharing this pool of knowledge!
As I keep playing and developing the skills and playstyle necessary to pilot this deck successfully, I hope to reach out here for help and advice with any questions that may arise:)
Again, many thanks!!!
Cheers

[Yourlovelyfriendalex]

Also wanted to jump in here and thank you for the wonderful decklist and explainer. I have not played zedruu recently as games with her take a lot of time and I have been focusing on a teshar build as of late, but I've been following your decklist for quite some time (thank you for influencing me to pick up opalescence and firestorm before they became untenable for my budget)

I'm personally thinking of shifting some of the pieces to burn to close out games to better fit my playgroup. Pieces like mindmoil, knowledge pool, all three storms recieve tremendous hate because everyone else would like to play their tutors and combo pieces and keep their hands as is rather than play not exactly magic the gathering. I'm still keeping all of these pieces when I soon do some minor upgrades, but I believe but I will be cutting mind's desire/mirror of fate in favor of some more counterplay. I never have the time or headspace to make it work. Frankly i'm not as cerebral a player as ya'll, I just want to create wacky boardstates that can maybe eek me out a win. I'm not strict with the "all combos must be 4 or more cards" rule but the design philosophy of having

Two cards I would like to point out for this style of play are Karn's Temporal Sundering (very unfortunately illustrated by noah bradley) and Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer. Karn's can net you 3 extra turns targeting precursor golem (or a whole barrelfull if the whole board is mirrorweaved golems) and has been a good replacement for Temporal Mastery . Brudiclad can do some truly wacky stuff like turn a board full of smothering tithe treasure into whatever you desire that you can make a token of (golems? Any permanent hit by fractured identity?)

Once again thank you for making a wildly fun decklist, I hope to enjoy this wacky deck for years to come.

[lyonhaert]

Two cards I would like to point out for this style of play are Karn's Temporal Sundering (very unfortunately illustrated by noah bradley) and Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer. Karn's can net you 3 extra turns targeting precursor golem (or a whole barrelfull if the whole board is mirrorweaved golems) and has been a good replacement for Temporal Mastery . Brudiclad can do some truly wacky stuff like turn a board full of smothering tithe treasure into whatever you desire that you can make a token of (golems? Any permanent hit by fractured identity?)

Precursor Golem says "that targets only a single Golem", so that's not going to copy Karn's Temporal Sundering. For Brudiclad + Fractured Identity you'll just have to make sure you hit an opponent's thing with Fractured so that you're in control of a token copy of it.

[tstorm823]

Hi,
When I read the Primer, I fell in love with the deck philosophy. This is my first and only deck and I've played three games, at a 4 player table, thus far. Although I have a long way to go as a player, the primer helps a great deal!
Just wanted to say a big thank you for sharing this pool of knowledge!
As I keep playing and developing the skills and playstyle necessary to pilot this deck successfully, I hope to reach out here for help and advice with any questions that may arise:)
Again, many thanks!!!
Cheers

Thank you very much! Feel free to ask whatever you need. If the question is "who's the best goat-headed woman in magic", the answer is Zedruu!

(thank you for influencing me to pick up opalescence and firestorm before they became untenable for my budget)

Man, you don't even know. My Opalescence playset was $2.50 each. My Time Spiral was $20. I definitely got through that intersection as the light turned yellow.

I'm personally thinking of shifting some of the pieces to burn to close out games to better fit my playgroup.

It's funny how effective that is. I get so used to my really overcomplicated janky win conditions, I keep being surprised that something like Jeskai Charm doming someone is a win condition. Burn is definitely a take that can cheese out a win, which is nice. A plays well with the "keep the win in your hand until the time comes" mindset, and in a way people generally find palatable.

Karn's can net you 3 extra turns targeting precursor golem (or a whole barrelfull if the whole board is mirrorweaved golems) and has been a good replacement for Temporal Mastery . Brudiclad can do some truly wacky stuff like turn a board full of smothering tithe treasure into whatever you desire that you can make a token of (golems? Any permanent hit by fractured identity?)

As has been covered, Karn's Temporal Sundering has two targets, so it can't radiate on golems. Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer is a neat card, but it's a lot of mana for basically a wacky synergy card, which I have probably too much of already. If you are in the business of cutting some of the wacky 5-7 mana cards that I like, Brudiclad is a fine replacement in that slot.

[sugarcondom]

Man, you don't even know. My Opalescence playset was $2.50 each. My Time Spiral was $20. I definitely got through that intersection as the light turned yellow.

Damn, I felt amazing for picking Time Spiral for about 80 - 100 dolars (60K Chilean Pesos) just a few days before it spiked to it's actual price lmfao.

I've been lurking your deck for about 2 years or so, and never actually thanked you for the fun I've had playing it, so thanks!

[tstorm823]

I've been lurking your deck for about 2 years or so, and never actually thanked you for the fun I've had playing it, so thanks!

Thank you for the comment, and for helping to make the world a little sillier.

[Nickb3k]

Just wanted to say how much fun I've had watching the deckbuilding on here over the last 3/4 years. Been lurking and learning for a while, and incorporating some of the wild interactions and philosophies into my own deck building

I'm not a lover of playing true "I win the game on the spot" combos, so I went in a slightly different direction with things, to create explosive synergies that can repeatedly establish "you'd better do something or I win next turn" board states.

This is the current iteration of my Xyris temur pile that probably tries to do too much, but in the sprit of Zedruu, the cards are (mostly) useful in a vacuum and all have neat niche interactions (ie crystalline crawler + forgotten ancient + primeval bounty; brudiclad + Saheeli + progenitor mimic; reins of power + mycoloth; cytoshape + mirrorwing dragon, etc). The goal is to take the howling mine snake tokens and make them not 1/1 snakes via stupid amounts of +1 counters or by build-your-own mirrorweave effects…with no wheels or counterspells other than Commit/Memory.

Thanks for the inspiration - may chaos reign!

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/24-10-2 ... 1635085186

[TheNewGuyHere]

Hey Tstorm - just wanted to say thanks for the deck. I am a returning player and my group plays battlecruiser decks and I find them mind numbingly boring. I made this deck and it's all I play now. The other plays love playing with it for the extra card draw and never see it coming with the combos - they actually like losing! I am still trying to learn all of the cards so a lot of my wins are with infernal titan and some other cards. Love it, love constantly having to think!

[tstorm823]

Progenitor Mimic

Now, I know you have neither Infinite Reflection nor something like Eldrazi Monument, but what if we pretend that you did. And then you played Mimic as a 1/1 with no abilities, and then put reflection on it. And then your next creature would have 1 copy of the upkeep trigger. And the creature after that would have two. The token copies wouldn't make tokens, but they can be chained just to scale how many instances of "At the beginning of your upkeep, if this creature isn't a token, create a token that's a copy of this creature" you can stack at once, and soon you make tens or hundreds of clones a turn!

It's not a good plan, but it is a funny plan.

[tstorm823]

So, not expecting much out of this set for Zedruu, just gonna go ahead and throw out the one card catching my eye:

To start with, it's politically asymmetrical Howling Mine. But also, it's a bit like 4-mana Thought Reflection. The templating is strict enough that it's not really an etb to abuse with Venser, the Sojourner, nor is it a cast to abuse with Possibility Storm, but we can take advantage of that with something like Replication Technique, where the draw effect stacks for us with multiples, but they weren't cast so opponents don't get extra, unless we want them to with Zedruu.

But then also, the draw effect is not a "may". Mindmoil is also not a may. You can donate Mindmoil to build your own backwards Forced Fruition. Or, you can have March of the Machines, and Mirrorweave the Wedding Ring with Mindmoil and force the table to draw out in one turn.

I don't even know if there's something silly to be done with the life gain part of the card. Probably? Maybe? Who knows, but the card sounds fun already.

[Sefir]

So, not expecting much out of this set for Zedruu, just gonna go ahead and throw out the one card catching my eye:

.....

Seems very dangerous! It is one thing to give everyone on the table (including us) a bit of more CA out of which we benefit a bit more and another entirely to give to a specific opponent the CA that Zedruu (or anything else) gives us. The deck is famed for drawing A LOT more than our opponents do and in our turn as well. To really give the ring value, you need to clone it or use Mindmoil shenanigans and it will still be a questionable play. And all these for a 4CMC spell..... Psychic Possession has been legal for years as a safer option and we never even considered it. Perhaps there can be some extra shenanigans like having our ring turned to creature with March of the Machines, clone it with Sakashima the Impostor and then destroy our original ring so only we benefit? Not sure it is really worth it tbh. Try it though and tell us of the results!!

[ihatemaryfisher]

I want to say: I have fallen in love with this deck. I really have. I run a version with fewer combos and more donating/stealing. I've tried to optimize the deck's ability to win with a combination of mine and my opponents' cards.

The deck philosophy is awesome—having an enormous number of 3-4 card synergies/combos that all follow one another. It feels like there are certain "central cards" that each have a collection of "synergizing cards" scattered throughout the deck. E.g.,

Mirror of Fate synergizes with Saheeli, Echo Storm/Temporal Mastery/Mirrorweave/March of the Machines

Jeskai Ascendency synergizes with March of the Machines/Manarocks/Strionic Resonator/Kiki Jiki/Kwain/Bonus Round

Crystalline Crawler synergizes with Jeskai Ascendency/Unbender Tine/Turnabout/etc

Azor's Gateway synergizes with Unbender Tine/Minamo, School at Water's Edge/Catch // Release/Turnabout/Mirror of Fate

Saheeli is literally a toolbox with any artifact

So here's my question: have you made any other decks with this same design process? Any other highly-synergistic but unpredictible (i.e., tutorless) decks that behave similarly?

[tstorm823]

So here's my question: have you made any other decks with this same design process? Any other highly-synergistic but unpredictible (i.e., tutorless) decks that behave similarly? I would like to fall in love for a second time

Not successfully. I've theorized plenty on how I would do it. I'm confident on a couple aspects that are required for this to work:
1) You need to see a lot of cards to hit the synergies.
2) Because you don't want to play a lot of redundant effects.
Like, I've made many silly, heavily synergy based decks, but most commonly that sort of deck I'll have a handful of broad categories of effects and lots of things in those categories. So in my "give my opponents creatures" deck, I have a bunch of cards that fill up other people's boards, a bunch of cards that punish people for having creatures, a bunch of cards that protect me from creatures, and a handful of cards that make people attack each other as a secondary subtheme. So even though I may not see too many cards in that deck relatively speaking, I should see a good mix of columns A, B, and C in any given game. That style of deck is easy (and fun) to build and a lot more common.

Zedruu here is a very different animal because aside from card draw and clones, there's very little redundancy. Instead of categories of redundant synergies, it's a long, winding chain. Turnabout likes Eye of the Storm likes Knowledge Pool likes Jeskai Ascendancy likes Strionic Resonator likes Precursor Golem likes Mirrorweave likes Inferno Titan likes Swans of Bryn Argoll likes Firestorm likes Leave // Chance likes Role Reversal likes Chaos Warp likes Pentad Prism likes Zedruu the Greathearted... so on and so forth. Like, we could play several variants of Swans and several variants of Pandemonium, but that isn't what we're going for.

I have wanted for years now to make Zedruu a Jund counterpart. (Jund specifically, because red is my favorite magic color, so 1 of each color but two of red strikes a good color balance for me.) And I know the first dumb synergy/combo I'd build into it: Hostility + Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro + Hurricane/Earthquake/Fireball type effects. Basically "I'll spare you this 10 damage, but the next time it's double." And like, there's lots to work off just from there. Vigor is Hostility's cousin that is also bonkers with Earthquake, any burn spell is good with Hostility, any shaman synergizes with Sachi and about there my brain hurts and I stop planning. So to bring it all the way back around, I haven't built a similar deck succesfully.