Zedruu the Greatest of All Time

[tstorm823]

I gotta say I'm pretty underwhelmed by the white mythic, sure you could always just play it as a land, but the spell side seems like it's only really good with a flash enabler out compared to something like Flawless Maneuver, so if it's just going to be a land 98% of the time I almost don't see the point. Playing it at Sorcery speed is just going to make people wait a turn cycle to play a board wipe, or in the case of something like Rift or Deluge it's not going to hinder them at all.

I agree it's not a good protection spell. The two bodies aren't nothing though, and it's so low opportunity cost. Honestly, I'm almost certainly rationalizing it because I like the symmetry of having all 3, and don't want to think about the color balance of subbing in a different land instead.

[Sefir]

Opinions?
I know we had the "Smothering Tithe talk" already before, but he has to be mentioned. Apart from the obvious synergy from Howling mine effects, it is also combo piece along with Minamo, MOM and a doubling effect like Alhammaret's Archive.....

EDIT: But unlike Smothering Tithe, the pirate denies the draw completely, like Narset. He is evil with Time Spiral. I do not think that the deck wants to go to those dark paths, but it is a possibility.

[DrKillenger]

Opinions?
I know we had the "Smothering Tithe talk" already before, but he has to be mentioned. Apart from the obvious synergy from Howling mine effects, it is also combo piece along with Minamo, MOM and a doubling effect like Alhammaret's Archive.....

EDIT: But unlike Smothering Tithe, the pirate denies the draw completely, like Narset. He is evil with Time Spiral. I do not think that the deck wants to go to those dark paths, but it is a possibility.

I had pretty much the exact same thought. I'm definitely eyeballing him for my Marchesa deck, where Wheel + this + Revel in Riches is an almost guaranteed win, but I think it'll just draw too much hate here. It *does* make Temple Bell into an even better Gilded Lotus, so it's tempting, but I dont think it fits for my build.

If you have a deck in blue that everyone already grumbles about and targets you for, then I think it's a perfect fit there lol

[tstorm823]

Yeah, I'm not playing that card. I would not get any joy from it at all.

[ThatOneGuyJesse]

What do you think of the new Sakashima? He's definately not better than the old one since the Detention Sphere combo won't work, but I think I might try him out instead of Phyrexian Metamorph or something. Being able to clone Zedruu or your opponent's creatures is a huge win over something like Spark Double, who I don't like that much.

[Wallycaine]

What do you think of the new Sakashima? He's definately not better than the old one since the Detention Sphere combo won't work, but I think I might try him out instead of Phyrexian Metamorph or something. Being able to clone Zedruu or your opponent's creatures is a huge win over something like Spark Double, who I don't like that much.

Sakashima still has the "you control" clause of Spark Double.

[ThatOneGuyJesse]

... Not sure how I missed that.

On another note, this card sure is interesting, huh? Haha- 😓

[tstorm823]

... Not sure how I missed that.

On another note, this card sure is interesting, huh? Haha- 😓

I like it. I like it with Nin, the Pain Artist. The rules interaction that makes it so Nin can never kill Body of Knowledge makes me happy.

I am gonna make a big post for this set sometime soon. There is a very long list of cards I won't be playing but have to acknowledge.

[Sefir]

I like it. I like it with Nin, the Pain Artist. The rules interaction that makes it so Nin can never kill Body of Knowledge makes me happy.

I am gonna make a big post for this set sometime soon. There is a very long list of cards I won't be playing but have to acknowledge.

Which means that, like Swans of Bryn Argol, this card is also a 3-card infinite with Nin and MOM...

[tstorm823]

Which means that, like Swans of Bryn Argol, this card is also a 3-card infinite with Nin and MOM...

To be fair, there are several cards in this set that hit that trap, that I have to reconsider Mind Over Matter before even putting it back in the main post here.

[tstorm823]

Okidokie. Lots of relecant cards in Commander Legends, so let's get at it:
MINOR MENTIONS
Akroma's Will: I mention because making things indestructible is part of some combos, and this does that, but funny enough also grants protection from all colors which negates those combos for the most part anyway.

Hullbreacher: This card is not a Zedruu card. It is mean and degenerate, and I hope not to see it. That being said, some people will be playing this, so keep your creature removal handy.

Jeweled Lotus: black lotus is worth mentioning, but I don't expect many would suggest it matters here. It can only pay for two of Zedruu's cost, and without other fast mana, you still can't draw with Zedruu until turn 4 no matter which way you cut it. Genuinely not a good card here, I think, as hurrying out Zedruu just doesn't do anything.

Sakashima of a Thousand Faces: I do like me a Sakashima, but unfortunately this one doesn't do much for me. The Mirror Gallery ability is neat and all, but it doesn't let this card do Detention Sphere combo, it doesn't let things like Mirrorweave or Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker target my legendary creatures. So it's not doing anything OG Sakashima isn't doing for me, AND it has the dreaded "you control" limitation.

Wrong Turn: this card is actually very good, I think. And on the surface seems Zedruu adjacent. But it's actually less relevent because of Zedruu. If I want to donate a creature of mine, I can do it for the same amount of mana with Zedruu. The real power of Wrong Turn is in giving one opponent's creature to another, which is genuinely hard removal a lot of the time. This is one of the best political pieces of interaction I've seen, and I fully intend to play it in a blue control deck somewhere.

Sakashima's Will: what a miss. It's like half Mirrorweave and half Mind Control, and yet it misses on so many levels. Unlike both of the cards this imitates, this card is largely uninteractive. You can't pick the creature you take, you can't turn your creatures into an opponent's creature, you can't turn opponent's creatures into anything, and it's a sorcery. Like, dangit. What a whiff.

CARDS I SITUATIONALLY COULD SEE MYSELF PLAYING
Sakashima's Protege: 6 is a lot of mana, and only things that just entered is a harsh limitation, but you get flash, cascade, the ability to just enter as a 3/1 if need be, and the ability to copy any permanent type. There is, at the very least, a very silly interaction available with bounce lands, where if you have a ton of mana and had a bounce land enter that turn, you can cascade for 6 and then copy the bounce land bouncing itself so you can cascade again. It's a thought provoking card, to say the least.

Sphinx of the Second Sun: this is bombtastic. It's basically a free spell when played during your first main phase, and draws a card to replace itself, and then it interacts very favorably with Howling Mine effects, and it can be cloned to multiply that interaction. I'm not immediately playing this for 2 reasons: I expect other people to play this card plenty, and I don't want to give people access to such a bomb with their own clone/theft effects. Playing a bunch of global draw effects and then putting what is effectively a cloneable extra turn spell is questionable play at best.

Jeska's Will: it's like a Geosurge strapped to a Concentrate. I have no immediate plans for this card, but it's very powerful in a group draw shell, so if I'm ever looking for a mega red ritual in the future, I'll be looking at this.

Ingenuity Engine: this is an obvious cog in a Rube Goldburg Machine somewhere. I don't think it is for me, but it's definitely got convoluted combo potential.

Archon of Coronation: any card that fundamentally breaks the rules of the game like this gets my attention. In theory, this could be used like lifelink to stop global damage from killing me with everyone else, while also being a pillow fort. On top of all that, Monarch is a sweet ability that would be neat to have. That being said, I'm currently thinking of going further down the life gain hole, so don't need this.

Krark, the Thumbless: this is near the most pushed thing I've ever seen. It's supposed to be a win or lose scenario, but both Krark options are bonkers with Possibility Storm and Eye of the Storm. I'm not going to play this without a specific plan for it, but I'm not counting out the possibility I come up with a plan for this one.

Bell Borca, Spectral Sergeant: the floor on this is drawing a card on your upkeep. The rest of what it does is cute and not particularly powerful, but if I were to succumb to the temptation to have a legend of each color pair again, this is a boros card draw legend. And then it's kind of funny with Vanish into Memory that can either set the power or draw based on it, and can be reliably turned big with Mirror of Fate. The power setting ability is funny to think about and will likely lead to cute situations, but to reiterate, I can imagine playing this because it effectively draws a card every turn.

CARDS THAT REALLY HAVE MY ATTENTION
Kwain, Itinerant Meddler: Ohhhhh, baby. That right there is a 2-mana howling mine effect. And I can't play it with Mind Over Matter, so that's pretty much the end of that experiment. Sorry MOM, bunny wizard is good stuff. And then on top of being a 2 mana way to start the cards flowing, it's got that extra little life gain, and that plays into the Drogskol Reaver I already want to pull back in, and maybe Archangel of Thune gets one last try in a broader lifegain package, and in a less direct way, lifegain supports the best replacement I can think of for the combos that required big Mind Over Matter mana, which is Treasonous Ogre. One neat little howling mine effect shows up and suddenly I'm down the rabbit hole (watch out, I've got jokes) of how I can potentially loop together life gain with life payment into 4 card combos.

Gnostro, Voice of the Crags: and now that I'm talking about life gain stuff, Gnostro does that, on top of the sweet friendship it has with the scry option and Possibility Storm, on top of the sweet friendship it has with the damage option and Swans of Bryn Argoll. This is, to be honest, a low floor high ceiling synergy card, and it would have been way cooler if it actually functioned like storm and counted other people's casts as well, but there's too much going on here and with too much subtlety for me to not try the card before dismissing it, cause it might be a do-nothing anchor, it might be sweet bomb, or it might be a perfectly reasonable middle of the road value card, and I genuinely do not know which it will be.

Body of Knowledge: and to make all of my descriptions of the previous two cards even more important, there's this thing. Anything that interacts nicely with Swans just got an extra boost. This card isn't immune to damage in the same way as Swans, but it draws you more cards because you always draw, and it does protect itself with sheer size. You absolutely can punk people out with a Mirrorweave attack (whether they block or not depending on handsize). It's great with Nin, the Pain Artist as Nin double draws with it and can never kill it because Nin's damage and card draw are simultaneous. Which is one more reason Mind Over Matter has to get the boot.

And then to just consider where this leaves me, I was looking for cards that do nicely with limited clone effects like Glasspool Mimic // Glasspool Shore and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, creatures that aren't legendary and are worth cloning in a vacuum, and other than Kiki itself, all my creatures that cost more than 4 are nonlegendary. Considering Cavalier of Dawn, Archangel of Thune, Precursor Golem, Body of Knowledge, Inferno Titan, and Drogskol Reaver are all very clone-worthy targets. And then if I'm pushing a life-gain subtheme, I'd have up to 7 cards between those in the deck already and those listed that gain life to support it. Do I have any idea how I intend to fit all this together in the deck? Nope! But I've certainly got the old brain moving right now.

[Sefir]

How does Body of Knowledge interact with Pandemonium? Does it die if we target itself with it?

[Wallycaine]

How does Body of Knowledge interact with Pandemonium? Does it die if we target itself with it?

Yes, although you'll draw cards equal to your hand size, which may be worth it. Basically, anytime it gets dealt damage, the check for lethal happens before you draw cards off the triggered ability. So if it has taken lethal damage at that point, it'll die, even though it would get bigger soon. The reason Nin can never* kill it is because her draw is part of the ability that deals damage, so you'll still draw those cards before the ability is finished resolving and you check to see if the damage is lethal.

*offer not valid if replacement effects are involved, please see terms and conditions

[tstorm823]

How does Body of Knowledge interact with Pandemonium? Does it die if we target itself with it?

Exactly dead every time. You could make it indestructible with something or pump toughness without bumping power with something, but otherwise exactly dead.

More interesting is Arcbond tricks, because if you put together two copies of Body of Knowledge and get them both arcbonded, they'll grow faster than the damage adds up and infinite draw. Which is not a may, and is donatable if you can survive the damage.

[doyle524]

Hey tstorm, I'd be interested in a list of fantastic cards that you aren't running because they're too fast/mean/efficient, whether accidentally or purposefully - I know we've talked about tutors and Smothering Tithe/Narset/Hullbreacher, you've mentioned Psychosis Crawler, and Mind over Matter is frequently on your borderline. What other cards do you consider too much for your Zedruu vision?

[tstorm823]

Hey tstorm, I'd be interested in a list of fantastic cards that you aren't running because they're too fast/mean/efficient, whether accidentally or purposefully - I know we've talked about tutors and Smothering Tithe/Narset/Hullbreacher, you've mentioned Psychosis Crawler, and Mind over Matter is frequently on your borderline. What other cards do you consider too much for your Zedruu vision?

I don't know I have such a list. It's a very contextual thing. Like, Psychosis Crawler isn't a busted or miserable card, but in the context of Mindmoil, you can find yourself digging for it aggressively, and that's a particular feeling I seek to avoid, the "just find that one easy win-con" moment. If someone were playing this deck without Mindmoil, that likely wouldn't be an issue.

[DrKillenger]

I'm becoming more and more into the idea of Chain of Plasma in my list.

It's decent enough creature removal in a pinch/if the worst thing your opponent can do is throw it back in your face.

It's a boardwipe with Precursor Golem + Mirrorweave (albeit a hilariously dangerous one since your opponents can opt to burn you to death for it by pitching their hands).

You can use it similarly to Nahiri's Wrath/Firestorm to pitch your hand by targeting your own indestructible thing.

And most importantly you can draw your entire deck by targeting Swans with it.

You can also use it to kickstart Arcbond combo if you have no other reliable damage sources.

[tstorm823]

And most importantly you can draw your entire deck by targeting Swans with it.

That's why I don't play it, actually. That's a practically deterministic 2 card game winning play, and even worse you have to decide what to discard every time so you can't shortcut the process.

[Sefir]

Absorb Identity

Is there any combo potential with it in Zedruu? The deck runs a few Shapeshifters, but for the moment, I do not see it doing things that Mirrorweave can't do better.....

[tstorm823]

Absorb Identity

Is there any combo potential with it in Zedruu? The deck runs a few Shapeshifters, but for the moment, I do not see it doing things that Mirrorweave can't do better.....

The issue, if you want to call it that, is that the shapeshifters are clones, and there's only one that keeps the shapeshifter typing while cloned, and the one that can survive without cloning isn't a shapeshifter at all.

If I were to rewind myself back to playing with Mirror Entity and could make everything a Shapeshifter, there might be something to it, but it'd be tricky to say the least. That being said, changelings are coming, so the right goofy changeling could change everything.

[DrKillenger]

I had a similar thought process with Absorb Identity after it got spoiled.

At first the card had me really excited for my Changeling deck, but looking at it in a practical sense I dont know how good it really is. Most of my own lords are Legendary, so thats a no-go, and the only ones I think would be good targets are Risen Reef or Lord of Lineage which is... cool? But not really worth the slot. Obviously there's the Magical Christmas land scenario of bouncing an opponent's C. Sphinx or something, but that's hardly reliable.

So after that I tried to apply it to my own Zedruu list and ran into basically the same roadblock you did, unless I want to add Mirror Entity to Zedruu as well I just don't see it working out.

Now that being said, if the other Changelings in Kaldheim are on par with Realmwalker I could very well do a complete 180 on the spell, but for right now I think it falls pretty firmly in the "neat, but not really useful" category

[tstorm823]

Yeah. The card definitely deserves consideration. 2-mana Unsummon isn't a great card, but it's a pretty high floor to begin with when you've got a potentially big effect stapled on. Mass cloning is, as we know, pretty bonkers, it's just a tough limitation to meet here. Regardless, doing 2 things at once is a head start to being a convoluted combo piece, and bouncing being half of it means there's probably a way to do it, so I'mma keep this card in mind for now.

I think, if it does have a home, it would probably be in a deck with Sakashima of a Thousand Faces, because this card doesn't have Mirrorweave's nonlegendary clause, and as you said, the things you want to clone most are legendary.

[DrKillenger]

Sakashima is immediately where my mind went to as well, partially because I'm in the middle of brewing Sakashima+Vial Smasher myself. The irony is that any Sakashima+X deck is going to be packed full of Shapeshifters that are almost never actually Shapeshifters, so unless you have some sort of convoluted strategy involving clones and Changelings (like you've been flirting with for this deck) it's still not going to be a very good fit.

It's a shame, because it's a card I'm really into from a flavor and mechanical perspective, but it's most likely just too many hoops to jump through in order to make a bad card just okay instead unfortunately.

[tstorm823]

So, I'm stuck spinning in circles here.

I'm playing Kwain, Itinerant Meddler. That isn't a question, that's a certainty. 2 mana Temple Bell with lifegain triggers that can be untapped by Minamo, School at Water's Edge or Jeskai Ascendancy or yada yada yada I'm playing the bunny and no one can stop me. Deal? Deal.

But then I can't play Mind Over Matter, which puts me right back to not knowing how to make Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison a combo piece. I was thinking Treasonous Ogre was the way to go, but best as I can tell, I'd need to bring back in a card to make my creatures indestructible as well, and even then it'd be a 4 card infinite life and red mana combo, which neither wins the game, so boo. And at the same time, believe it or not, the Ogre is kinda too efficient with Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun and Echo Storm, as if you hit the flip condition, you get to do pay 3 life: loot, gain 5 life; and that's sufficient to end the game.

What other things might do it? I feel like there should be something possible with Grand Architect, cause that card can cleanly feed a fight, but I haven't figured out where to go from there. Or like, I could let it fight and flip, and then bounce the land to recast it with like a moonfolk or a Storm Cauldron (not that we'd want to go that route), but what am I fighting and where do I get all the mana... I feel very like I've hit a dead end. Why is it so difficult to turn fighting into mana to fight over again?

Though even as I sit this out, I could go The Locust God, Grand Architect, Golden Guardian, and anything that keeps the guardian from dying to damage, but then I'd need to cut Pandemonium to avoid the Locust God/Swans combo, and I'd need a new payoff for Sakashima the Impostor/Detention Sphere combo. And like, now I'm talking about things that take too many changes to possibly fit them all, just hitting my head against the wall this time.

[MeowZeDung]

What are you looking to do with guardian beyond the swans and azor's gateway tricks? Have you looked at artifact clones - have Mirage Mirror copy guardian then turn it blue with architect so it survives the fight for example? I'm assuming your trying to do more than just flip it though.

Edit: some more random thoughts.

Stuffy Doll plus architect?

Some nonsense with Freed from the Real effects?

Intruder Alarm + instant speed blink to leverage the token creation and architect to keep multi tapping guardian before fights?

Jeskai Ascendancy is surely a role player in here somehow. Again, instant speed blink with an ascendancy trigger on the stack plus architect can do mana stuff. Pentad Prism bounce shenanigans maybe?

All of these probably need some mana filter effect, which is tough. Ascendancy and a dork that makes blue can do it too. Ofcourse if you're untapping multiple robots the mana loss normally tied to conversion is no issue.