Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

True. Why fit a square peg? I'm hoping that Innistrad produces some decent zombies later this year as there seems like a few slots that could be filled with more creatures for the deck. I bet Yawgmoth is pretty fun to play. He's in my Ayara deck and I've contemplated switching commanders, but I quite like my lady currently.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
True. Why fit a square peg? I'm hoping that Innistrad produces some decent zombies later this year as there seems like a few slots that could be filled with more creatures for the deck. I bet Yawgmoth is pretty fun to play. He's in my Ayara deck and I've contemplated switching commanders, but I quite like my lady currently.
Absolutely. I'm going to try and give him a few more laps round the track, but he may just not be quite right. I'm hoping for more optimal zombie options in the coming months too, although I'm not holding out a lot of hope. I know the upcoming Innistrad sets are focusing more on vampires and werewolves respectively, so it's probably fairly doubtful there'll be a ton for us to work with, you never know.

Yawgmoth, Thran Physician is pretty nuts. It is fun, but you're really forced to play to win ASAP because of his reputation for being very strong at the helm. It's less a case of how to combo out with him, and more that he's so strong you almost don't need to. It is fun, but it's also not the sort of deck you play at anything but a pretty spikey table.
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Post by Nimbaway » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
Phyrexian Altar + Gravecrawler too. I know you're not up on that infinite combo, but it's just one combo that you could unintentionally not look for yet in a pinch use.
Yeah, I've tossed up Ashnod's Altar purely because it's not as busted. I'm not averse to combo entirely, you always have the option of just not using it.
I'm not too fond of combos like this either, while there is the option of not using it things eventually wind down to discussions where during a loss you could have won the game with such a combo. Not choosing to win feels like a bad option and thus not running one of these kinds of combos just becomes the better option.

I don't mind Ashnod's Altar because it also helps casting our more expensive reanimation spells. I recently added Twilight's Call to my list and its where Altar can come in handy.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Nimbaway wrote:
2 years ago
'm not too fond of combos like this either, while there is the option of not using it things eventually wind down to discussions where during a loss you could have won the game with such a combo. Not choosing to win feels like a bad option and thus not running one of these kinds of combos just becomes the better option.
This is it for me really. I already have one combo in the list with a sac outlet, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Plague Belcher, which is janky enough for me to look the other way. Other than that I'm mostly ok to leave it. Phyrexian Altar is just too good.

This is what I was intending with tossing up Ashnod's Altar. All of the stuff that sits at the 5 CMC slot and the big reanimation spells, there's no reason Altar can't help with that stuff. How has it worked out for you?
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Post by Nimbaway » 2 years ago

It had mixed results for me so far, as there have been times I ended up just discarding it because I did need colored mana. However, this was before the recent changes with the Map and Land Tax being added. Once it sticks it has been performing decently, but again my previous mana issues were part the cause of that as you still need stuff on board for it to do something, when behind this is definitely doing little.

The other issue I have is that some people in my meta have been dealing a lot with a Ghave combo deck in the past, in which Ashnod's Altar was a quite central piece. So for them it's a bit of a kill on sight card. Whether it's warranted such attention here can be debatable, as there are times that there are more important targets on board instead of it. That said, I know the card can do a lot. It's nice with our higher costed spells, as well as helps fuel some of our x-costed draw spells.

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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

Hello been following this tread for a while now (made an account here to post here) and gotten some great insight on how you guys play varina.
Wondering if you guys tried out Necromancy [/card] it is instant speed reanimation with bury at end of turn effect for nevrynal It also works with Dance of the Manse since its not an aura and enters an an enchantment. Being instant speed it has also gotten me great things from other peoples graveyards.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

It was a discussion had a while back regarding targeted reanimation as a whole. While they aren't necessarily bad (I still play Phyrexian Delver for example) they are superfluous. That is, at least in my build, the idea is simply commit to the board, let things die, then bring everything back as a whole. While there is more nuance to this, this is a basic summation of how I expect reanimation to go in my games.

Arguably, our creatures aren't even that good to reanimate anyway. Getting Grimgrin, Corpse-Born or Gray Merchant of Asphodel are good, for sure, but not much else is as a one off. Maybe we want something like Vengeful Dead or Death Baron for specific situations, but even then it is pretty narrow. As you said, Necromancy can get other people's creatures too which makes it a bit better, but I don't think it is quite good enough.

There is no problem with running those types of things in your build obviously, but I have found the most success with just bringing everything back at once.

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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

I know I don't have great MTG "meta" mind when it comes to deck building, so I really appreciate threads like this where minds that can really wrap their heads around the deck building puzzle can share their thoughts. So, a couple cards that I'm just going to throw out there as possible ideas. What are your thoughts on adding Dolmen Gate to the deck? I know you say you don't care about zombies dying because you want to mass reanimate, but would the Gate free you from any hesitancy about attacking so you can keep your board state more intact and still get Varina's filter (and lifegain) triggers. I guess Reconnaissance played a similar role in the past on this thread and isn't being used anymore, so maybe this falls in that boat.

Another card idea: Glasspool Mimic to clone another zombie and/or you can use it for blue mana if in dire straights.

Also, I can't remember how long ago Unsettled Mariner was talked about. That could fill a low "mana value" slot with a Zombie body and a semi-useful ability.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

My list after some recent edits:
Varina's Recurring Horde

Commander

Planeswalkers

Approximate Total Cost:

Need to swap a land for Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx (open to suggestions).
Want to drop 2 other lands for 2 Plains, then bring in Archaeomancer's Map for...something.
Wondering if one of the single target removal pieces should be a Generous Gift, or one of the multi-target artifact/enchantment removal spells.
Considering dropping Oketra for something; maybe Bontu, maybe something else lower on the curve.
TAI I added after some of the discussion in this and WizardMN's thread, but have yet to play it.
Just added Mission Briefing, even though I have fewer targets than WMN does, because I like the idea of being a little freer to pitch an important spell while still being able to use it, or being able to reuse one I've cast already.
Just brought in Land Tax, as it does look like it should be strong here.

I know you and WMN aren't running Rooftop Storm, but it has consistently been very good for me, even without comboing, and it's a piece I generally don't mind seeing removed, so if it eats a removal I'm not that fussed. The Monument is kind of in the same boat, except that it's helping to drain the table until it eats removal. Occasionally, one or both of these will allow for a combo win, but since I removed most of the tutoring from the deck those come up more infrequently.
Dark Salvation I've enjoyed...most of the time, I cast it for just to kill a problem creature, but now and then I also get 1-3 zombies out of it as well.

Played a game last night where I recurred Sidisi with Unholy Grotto 4 or 5 times to stay alive and search for answers (helped that everyone got mega-ramped with some X spell that gave us all 6 basics early on).

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I think Dolmen Gate has potential, but it is yet another slot that I think ends up not doing a lot. Yeah, it certainly helps us swing into big board states to ensure we get our triggers but it is also a slot that late game does very little and can't get us back into a potentially "lost" game. I think the idea is sound, and it could have some use, but I think isn't really something we need/want to slot in.

Mimic is a reasonable choice. I have shied away from anything that isn't a zombie so it wouldn't fit in my build, but I could see where others might want to give it a try to double dip on some zombies.

And, because of my "no non-zombies" rule, I have kind of gone back and forth on whether Changelings should count. I am sort of taking a more "purist" approach but I do think Mariner is a pretty good card. It helps protect our zombies and it is cheap to cast. I almost threw it in during the last round of changes to my list.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I have never had any luck with Crypt of Agadeem - that's my pick for a Nykthos swap.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Crypt has been great for me, and in situations where Nykthos wouldn't. In last night's game, I cast Sidisi twice, Bidding, and Zombie Apocalypse all off Crypt, as I had nothing on the board thanks to multiple wipes. I view them as dovetailing: one gives you mana when you have a big board, while the other does so when you have a big yard, and the latter often occurs when you don't have the former.

I had been running Putrid Imp for a little while, and had a couple games where I pitched creatures to ramp up Crypt, then mass reanimate everything. Also useful with Miser out to make mana during your main phase. Cut Imp in this latest round just because the situations in which it's useful are fairly narrow, and it's otherwise very underwhelming.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
I know I don't have great MTG "meta" mind when it comes to deck building, so I really appreciate threads like this where minds that can really wrap their heads around the deck building puzzle can share their thoughts. So, a couple cards that I'm just going to throw out there as possible ideas. What are your thoughts on adding Dolmen Gate to the deck? I know you say you don't care about zombies dying because you want to mass reanimate, but would the Gate free you from any hesitancy about attacking so you can keep your board state more intact and still get Varina's filter (and lifegain) triggers. I guess Reconnaissance played a similar role in the past on this thread and isn't being used anymore, so maybe this falls in that boat.

Another card idea: Glasspool Mimic to clone another zombie and/or you can use it for blue mana if in dire straights.

Also, I can't remember how long ago Unsettled Mariner was talked about. That could fill a low "mana value" slot with a Zombie body and a semi-useful ability.
I think Recon is significantly better than Dolmen Gate, and would only run the Gate if I found I wanted an effect in addition to Recon, and I've run and dropped Recon without really looking back.

Shapeshifters are nice, but they don't come back with most of our reanimation suite, which makes them much less valuable here. I had strongly considered Metallic Mimic, but the fact that it won't get returned with Patriarch's Bidding, Zombie Apocalypse, Relentless Dead, or Lord of the Undead (while also being a nonbo with Mikaeus) had me pass it up. Clones fall into the same boat in my opinion. There aren't many cards in the list that copying once will make a big enough impact to warrant the inclusion.


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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
It's probably Strip Mine or Exotic Orchard then :)
Exotic Orchard is my choice. I don't really like relying on opponents for my colors. Though, it is usually colored mama we can use where strip mine never is.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

I think my toss up is between Orchard and Tainted Field. On the one hand, Orchard is generally always going to be at least a dual-land, and is often a tri-land, but it's hard to count on, particularly in the first couple turns. On the other, Tainted Field can (rarely) only tap for . I think when I bring in the Map, I'll drop a Swamp and whichever one of these I don't drop for Nykthos.

Strip Mine only making colorless can hurt, but every deck needs at least one card to destroy lands, and I wouldn't want to rely on Vindicate for that.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
but every deck needs at least one card to destroy lands
I used to think this but if you can't tutor for it really what good is it? You're better off just going over the top of Cradle or whatever.

Most of the time I strip mined something in non-loam decks I found them crucible or loaming it back and me being down a land =P

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
but every deck needs at least one card to destroy lands
I used to think this but if you can't tutor for it really what good is it? You're better off just going over the top of Cradle or whatever.

Most of the time I strip mined something in non-loam decks I found them crucible or loaming it back and me being down a land =P
This is where I am as well. Even in decks that can tutor it, I haven't found LD to be exceptionally important. And, as pointed out, with the lands that actually matter (Field of the Dead is the big one I think) it isn't really that hard for those decks to get them back anyway. I often would rather just try to race them rather than try to control their lands. Granted, that does mean that some games are just a lost cause solely because that land couldn't be dealt with, but I find those to be fairly rare. I even had a game the other day where two opponents had Field of the Dead and I just ran over them. I did have to play it a bit differently but my wraths got me through it. Still not the easiest but certainly doable.

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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

[/quote]
I think Recon is significantly better than Dolmen Gate, and would only run the Gate if I found I wanted an effect in addition to Recon, and I've run and dropped Recon without really looking back.

Shapeshifters are nice, but they don't come back with most of our reanimation suite, which makes them much less valuable here. I had strongly considered Metallic Mimic, but the fact that it won't get returned with Patriarch's Bidding, Zombie Apocalypse, Relentless Dead, or Lord of the Undead (while also being a nonbo with Mikaeus) had me pass it up. Clones fall into the same boat in my opinion. There aren't many cards in the list that copying once will make a big enough impact to warrant the inclusion.
[/quote]

Thanks for the thoughts on Gate and Recon. How did Recon play when you did run it and why did you choose to drop it?

I guess Shapeshifters wouldn't help then UNLESS it says Changeling, then it's all creature types. So, Glasspool would be a no go, but Unsettled Mariner could still be reanimated.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
I guess Shapeshifters wouldn't help then UNLESS it says Changeling, then it's all creature types. So, Glasspool would be a no go, but Unsettled Mariner could still be reanimated.
And then blown up by Zombie Apocalypse :P Obviously not really a strike against it; just an interesting interaction


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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

How often have you been able to recur Agent of Erebos to get multiple triggers from it? I'm curious how it fairs compared to Ashiok, Dream Render. I realize that Ashiok isn't a zombie and can't be recurred easily in this deck, but it's cheaper and takes out all your opponents graveyards and helps to fill your yard. Also, you're not playing Dance of the Manse anymore, so it's harder to get the Agent back now. And there's no trigger benefit when you mass reanimate, so I'm curious if you typically just get a single ETB trigger from it and are simply happy with that and that it's a zombie to help with Varina?

Ooopss, I forgot to add that since you don't have very many enchantments in your deck you're less likely to get extra triggers.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Falkenbach wrote:
2 years ago
Hello been following this tread for a while now (made an account here to post here) and gotten some great insight on how you guys play varina.
Thanks for following, and welcome to the army of the dead!

The recommendation is a reasonable one, I think there's some ways in which Necromancy is a good fit. Partially for me it isn't just because damn has it shot up in price. Secondly, I think the list struggles for other singe target reanimation targets that are worth the effort. For the most part, as far as my deck goes, they're more than the sum of their parts, and that just means mass reanimation is worth that much more than single target spells (unless they're baked into a zombie a lá Rot Hulk /Apprentice Necromancer).
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
There is no problem with running those types of things in your build obviously, but I have found the most success with just bringing everything back at once.
Agreed, it's more efficient in a deck that doesn't ramp overly well. We're getting there, but in my estimation it's not quite worth, and part of that is also that in a vacuum most of the creatures we run are pretty average. There's very few that are even really worth wasting spot removal on. I think this plays in our favour most of the time, but it does mean spot reanimators are less valuable here.
ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
What are your thoughts on adding Dolmen Gate to the deck? I know you say you don't care about zombies dying because you want to mass reanimate, but would the Gate free you from any hesitancy about attacking so you can keep your board state more intact and still get Varina's filter (and lifegain) triggers. I guess Reconnaissance played a similar role in the past on this thread and isn't being used anymore, so maybe this falls in that boat.

Another card idea: Glasspool Mimic to clone another zombie and/or you can use it for blue mana if in dire straights.

Also, I can't remember how long ago Unsettled Mariner was talked about. That could fill a low "mana value" slot with a Zombie body and a semi-useful ability.
Dolmen Gate seems like it'd fit reasonably in a meta that relies on combat heavily. I just personally find that that's becoming less and less the case recently. I've played a couple of Lathril, Blade of the Elves decks that get out of hand quickly, but that's about it. Reconnaissance would probably fit a little better purely on account of giving some life protection and assurance that you can swing with impunity and still manage defense. I've still found it a little superfluous which is why I dropped it, but I also have it set aside regardless. It'd be easy enough to pop back in.

Glasspool Mimic // Glasspool Shore seems ok, but it probably isn't challenging anything for a space in my list. Likewise with Unsettled Mariner. It's fine but 1 isn't really enough on it's own to stop folk popping stuff they wanna pop. I also think that's less useful in a format rife with wipes, too. I also generally don't care overly if my stuff gets killed, so it's just not doing anything I want it to.
yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
Need to swap a land for Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx (open to suggestions).
I agree with @pokken, Crypt of Agadeem is pretty unreliable to my mind. It's just too conditional to be all that useful. Failing that I vote for Strip Mine. It seems like it's a card that's far more useful when you can reuse it, and personally I don't see enough Cradles or Coffers to really make it worth the spot. If that's a must too, Tainted Field is relatively conditional too, I think it's easy to see that as the cut.
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
How often have you been able to recur Agent of Erebos to get multiple triggers from it? I'm curious how it fairs compared to Ashiok, Dream Render. I realize that Ashiok isn't a zombie and can't be recurred easily in this deck, but it's cheaper and takes out all your opponents graveyards and helps to fill your yard. Also, you're not playing Dance of the Manse anymore, so it's harder to get the Agent back now. And there's no trigger benefit when you mass reanimate, so I'm curious if you typically just get a single ETB trigger from it and are simply happy with that and that it's a zombie to help with Varina?

Ooopss, I forgot to add that since you don't have very many enchantments in your deck you're less likely to get extra triggers.
I've personally had a few games where it gets pretty nasty. It does ETB, it's just worded a little differently to the usual on account of the parsing of the constellation mechanism.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
How often have you been able to recur Agent of Erebos to get multiple triggers from it? I'm curious how it fairs compared to Ashiok, Dream Render. I realize that Ashiok isn't a zombie and can't be recurred easily in this deck, but it's cheaper and takes out all your opponents graveyards and helps to fill your yard. Also, you're not playing Dance of the Manse anymore, so it's harder to get the Agent back now. And there's no trigger benefit when you mass reanimate, so I'm curious if you typically just get a single ETB trigger from it and are simply happy with that and that it's a zombie to help with Varina?

Ooopss, I forgot to add that since you don't have very many enchantments in your deck you're less likely to get extra triggers.
I've personally had a few games where it gets pretty nasty. It does ETB, it's just worded a little differently to the usual on account of the parsing of the constellation mechanism.
I have basically never gotten more than 2 triggers from it in a game and, even then, the second trigger tends to come off mass reanimation where I just reanimated all their stuff anyway (which I think ChocoDude was alluding to). So, no, it doesn't come up a lot where I get a ton of use out of it. In fact, I might go as far as to say that my limited use out of Agent of Erebos and having that limited use not matter is what led me to cutting Ashiok.

That is, yeah, Agent's won't trigger a lot but I have been finding more and more that I just don't need it to. Hell, there might even be an argument for Agent not being very good. He gets a pass because he is a Zombie and there is incidental use out of him against very specific decks (like ours), but Withered Wretch is the all star here for that. In general though, grave hate, somewhat paradoxically (considering the amount of spells we run that give everyone their creatures back), tends to not be a huge need for the deck.

Sure, one player gets their Consecrated Sphinx back and another player gets their Razaketh, the Foulblooded and Kokusho, the Evening Star. But we just got back 10+ zombies all with different ETB triggers and we basically just win. So I would honestly look to cut Agent before adding Ashiok back in. I don't plan on doing that but if I was somehow faced with those two choices, I know Ashiok coming in is not the right call for me.

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