Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
Bringing it back to this deck, I think there's value in dropping the curve and using Varina's looting effect with as big an army as possible as early as possible. That gives us the most efficient way to filter for optimal hand sculpting. There is however something to be said for repetition of the effect too, and that's something that aiming for pure tempo will struggle with.
Im not sure what you mean by this can you elaborate? About repetition and pure tempo.
I meant repetition of Varina's attack ability. I think the more creatures we have on board the more likely we are to garner notice, so somewhere theres a sweet spot of digging deep on attacks and still getting away with them. I guess what I was meaning is hitting that sweet spit of not attracting board wipes or interference and still being able to dig on subsequent turns.
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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
Bringing it back to this deck, I think there's value in dropping the curve and using Varina's looting effect with as big an army as possible as early as possible. That gives us the most efficient way to filter for optimal hand sculpting. There is however something to be said for repetition of the effect too, and that's something that aiming for pure tempo will struggle with.
Im not sure what you mean by this can you elaborate? About repetition and pure tempo.
I meant repetition of Varina's attack ability. I think the more creatures we have on board the more likely we are to garner notice, so somewhere theres a sweet spot of digging deep on attacks and still getting away with them. I guess what I was meaning is hitting that sweet spit of not attracting board wipes or interference and still being able to dig on subsequent turns.
Ahhh gotcha I definitely agree. Important to read the table and either commit to the big board, or manage your commitment until the time is right and you have a way to win.

I don't think a "pure tempo" version of the deck is viable with the tools we have. Too many zombies are expensive and clunky at times, the deck is really a midrange deck more than anything. There just are not enough redundant "cheap-tempo" zombies to build a deck entirely around that concept imo. It is more of a way to make the midrange deck more efficient and a bit faster/more lethal if possible.
Zombies ate my brains.
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago


Im not sure what you mean by this can you elaborate? About repetition and pure tempo.
I meant repetition of Varina's attack ability. I think the more creatures we have on board the more likely we are to garner notice, so somewhere theres a sweet spot of digging deep on attacks and still getting away with them. I guess what I was meaning is hitting that sweet spit of not attracting board wipes or interference and still being able to dig on subsequent turns.
Ahhh gotcha I definitely agree. Important to read the table and either commit to the big board, or manage your commitment until the time is right and you have a way to win.

I don't think a "pure tempo" version of the deck is viable with the tools we have. Too many zombies are expensive and clunky at times, the deck is really a midrange deck more than anything. There just are not enough redundant "cheap-tempo" zombies to build a deck entirely around that concept imo. It is more of a way to make the midrange deck more efficient and a bit faster/more lethal if possible.
Yup, I agree. We can't do what Edgar does. Ideally I want to take a leaf from that book but I don't necessarily think its a good idea to copy every page.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
To that end, reanimating Filth or Wonder doesn't do anything, whereas reanimating even a garbage zombie could be 1-5 more damage to the table. And "just sacrifice them" is well and good, but I don't see anyone running enough sac outlets here to be able to do so reliably. So far what I like most about Wonder is being able to discard it during an attack before blockers for surprise evasion.
Why would you reanimate Wonder or Filth? I am confused why you would bring this up, maybe I am missing something... from what I can tell only one card brings these back in most decks and that is living death, which is a pretty narrow scenario and easy to fix with any sac outlet.
To the point above about sac outlets, we don't run a lot. I run 2 (Carrion Feeder and Grimgrin, Corpse-Born; maybe counting Phyrexian Tower but that can't be reanimated so is less reliable still) so sacrificing them isn't always a sure thing.

Also, Twilight's Call, Balthor the Defiled (for Filth anyway), and Patriarch's Bidding (against a savvy opponent) can all return them to the field. The only ones that would never return them are Zombie Apocalypse and Haunting Voyage for anyone that runs that. While not necessarily a huge issue, they can still be returned.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
To that end, reanimating Filth or Wonder doesn't do anything, whereas reanimating even a garbage zombie could be 1-5 more damage to the table. And "just sacrifice them" is well and good, but I don't see anyone running enough sac outlets here to be able to do so reliably. So far what I like most about Wonder is being able to discard it during an attack before blockers for surprise evasion.
Why would you reanimate Wonder or Filth? I am confused why you would bring this up, maybe I am missing something... from what I can tell only one card brings these back in most decks and that is living death, which is a pretty narrow scenario and easy to fix with any sac outlet.
To the point above about sac outlets, we don't run a lot. I run 2 (Carrion Feeder and Grimgrin, Corpse-Born; maybe counting Phyrexian Tower but that can't be reanimated so is less reliable still) so sacrificing them isn't always a sure thing.

Also, Twilight's Call, Balthor the Defiled (for Filth anyway), and Patriarch's Bidding (against a savvy opponent) can all return them to the field. The only ones that would never return them are Zombie Apocalypse and Haunting Voyage for anyone that runs that. While not necessarily a huge issue, they can still be returned.
Patriarch's bidding does not bring back filth/wonder in this deck unless YOU want it to haha - it returns your choice, not everyones choices. Most people seem to run the three "best" which include bidding, apocalypse, and living death. The others you mentioned seem like more fringe choices but yeah they can bring back one or both the incarnations.

I run a couple more sac outlets to help account for those scenarios, and just for general utility:
Phyrexian Altar
Ashnods Altar
Carrion Feeder
Phyrexian Tower
Grimgrin, Corpse Born


Personally I have never run into an issue where I couldn't get wonder or filth to get into, or stay in my GY. I am not sure this is really worth even considering as a noteworthy downside to the incarnation cards.
Last edited by plaganegra 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I think you are misreading Bidding: it brings back all chosen creature types for everyone. if an opponent chooses "incarnation" your Incarnations return. If you choose Zombie (which you obviously do) all your opponents get their zombies. I am not saying that them naming Incarnation is going to be common but I also said it could happen against a savvy opponent. That is, one that knows what the cards do and knows that having Wonder/Filth on the field is better than in yard.

Whether they are fringe choices or not, they have come up numerous times in this thread. They are played, even if they are not played by you.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
I think you are misreading Bidding: it brings back all chosen creature types for everyone. if an opponent chooses "incarnation" your Incarnations return. If you choose Zombie (which you obviously do) all your opponents get their zombies. I am not saying that them naming Incarnation is going to be common but I also said it could happen against a savvy opponent. That is, one that knows what the cards do and knows that having Wonder/Filth on the field is better than in yard.

Whether they are fringe choices or not, they have come up numerous times in this thread. They are played, even if they are not played by you.
Oh wow! I did not realize, yeah I misread that. It has never come up and maybe I should not educate my fellow playgroup of that nuance lol
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Wizard knows his stuff! 65 answers in the rulings threads gotta mean something:)

I'd never really picked up on that till reading the card fully just now myself. Its very specifically worded.
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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
Wizard knows his stuff! 65 answers in the rulings threads gotta mean something:)

I'd never really picked up on that till reading the card fully just now myself. Its very specifically worded.
I mean it would have to be an incredibly specific scenario where someone would not choose to bring back their own creature(s) just to screw over your filth/wonder. it is interesting but probably not something I would worry about lol.

But yeah I had no idea it brought back all the creature types. Most people I have ever played with don't know this either lol. Glaring oversight! Thanks @WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I think it depends on the game state. I don't know what everyone else's experience has been with the mass reanimation, but I almost always have at least one opponent with very little in their yard. Which, to be honest, is one of the reasons I have gone down on grave hate in general: why hate on the yard when there is nothing in it. Though, it would depend on you having one or both incarnations in the yard, not having a sac outlet on board or in the yard, and that particular opponent reading the game state well enough to make that choice. In Commander, things like that are fairly hard to do since there is just so much going on in general.

In any case, I think it would be a pretty fallacious argument to say they shouldn't be run because they aren't good enough. And, if I am reading the thread properly, I don't think anyone made that specific claim. Me and at least one other poster said they won't run them due to not being zombies. I have made the argument as well that I just don't feel they are needed. They are useful and good but so are a lot of things and we only have so much room. Zombie Master plays a little nicer with the overall theme of the deck even if it is slightly more vulnerable to hate. Having them play weird with mass reanimation is certainly a strike against them no matter how improbable that situation might end up being so it is worth discussing. I agree it probably shouldn't be the sole reason they are dismissed, but I think it can certainly be *a* reason.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
I think it depends on the game state. I don't know what everyone else's experience has been with the mass reanimation, but I almost always have at least one opponent with very little in their yard. Which, to be honest, is one of the reasons I have gone down on grave hate in general: why hate on the yard when there is nothing in it. Though, it would depend on you having one or both incarnations in the yard, not having a sac outlet on board or in the yard, and that particular opponent reading the game state well enough to make that choice. In Commander, things like that are fairly hard to do since there is just so much going on in general.

In any case, I think it would be a pretty fallacious argument to say they shouldn't be run because they aren't good enough. And, if I am reading the thread properly, I don't think anyone made that specific claim. Me and at least one other poster said they won't run them due to not being zombies. I have made the argument as well that I just don't feel they are needed. They are useful and good but so are a lot of things and we only have so much room. Zombie Master plays a little nicer with the overall theme of the deck even if it is slightly more vulnerable to hate. Having them play weird with mass reanimation is certainly a strike against them no matter how improbable that situation might end up being so it is worth discussing. I agree it probably shouldn't be the sole reason they are dismissed, but I think it can certainly be *a* reason.
Yeah it defintiely can be *a* reason to not include them, just like some people don't want to include zombie master because occasionally they are getting hit by zombies with swampwalk from their own tombstone stairwell or something else more incidental like a field of the dead. To me the main reason to choose one or another (or both) is more of a deck building philosophy than a straight up "this vs that" comparison. The deck building philosophy is really what I am getting at here more than specific cards, which is why I spent so much time trying to elaborate on tempo for everyone to read. It is kind of hard to grasp until you see it in action and working well.

Having a lot of good and useful things to choose from is a very good problem to have. There are so many specific factors in commander that can affect how someone evaluates cards for their deck in their playgroup that I definitely find a lot of value in seeing these unique scenarios come up. If anything it helps everyone understand their options a little bit better.
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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

I'm on the tempo side of the argument here. I choose to test Wonder because it allows me to constantly swing my zombies to trigger Varina again and again.

Well, Archfiend allow us to do it better but it cost 5 and if it hits the grave, it's totally useless.

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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
I think you are misreading Bidding: it brings back all chosen creature types for everyone. if an opponent chooses "incarnation" your Incarnations return. If you choose Zombie (which you obviously do) all your opponents get their zombies. I am not saying that them naming Incarnation is going to be common but I also said it could happen against a savvy opponent. That is, one that knows what the cards do and knows that having Wonder/Filth on the field is better than in yard.

Whether they are fringe choices or not, they have come up numerous times in this thread. They are played, even if they are not played by you.
19 years I know Patriarch's Bidding and never saw that subtility. I love this game.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

With all this talk of evasion has anyone considered revisiting Bone Dancer?

I have never played with the card myself. I am curious how it would work in a game where zombies can connect more consistently. Top creature is a drawback but you can also choose who to attack to help mitigate that at times.
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Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
With all this talk of evasion has anyone considered revisiting Bone Dancer?

I have never played with the card myself. I am curious how it would work in a game where zombies can connect more consistently. Top creature is a drawback but you can also choose who to attack to help mitigate that at times.
Bone Dancer is annoying because just by having it in your deck, you force your opponents to order their graveyards.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

I don't know. No native evasion, doesn't deal damage, and doesn't give you a pick of the yard.

On the topic of Patriarch's Bidding, I've had plenty of games where the fact everyone returns all chosen types has been relevant. Opponents without much of value in their yard picking a type to help others get more back. Or in my cleric deck choosing clerics even though I had more humans in my yard, because someone else had humans and I wanted to force them to either give me more stuff back, or miss out on getting their own team back.

And in this deck, there have been times I've reanimated someone else's problematic zombie.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

@plaganegra My point regarding tempo was more that in a 60 card format, bringing back a low-impact creature at little/no cost can be a big deal, but in commander it often isn't enough. It's the same reason there even efficient beaters aren't run often if they don't do anything else. I'm trying a few of them, but I'm not sure that I wouldn't rather have a stronger card that I have to cast.

One thing I'm trying to wrap my head around is packing in more flashback-type cards to stock the yard with utility. How many slots I can justify devoting to that. Definitely want the new WB removal spell.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
@plaganegra My point regarding tempo was more that in a 60 card format, bringing back a low-impact creature at little/no cost can be a big deal, but in commander it often isn't enough. It's the same reason there even efficient beaters aren't run often if they don't do anything else. I'm trying a few of them, but I'm not sure that I wouldn't rather have a stronger card that I have to cast.

One thing I'm trying to wrap my head around is packing in more flashback-type cards to stock the yard with utility. How many slots I can justify devoting to that. Definitely want the new WB removal spell.
I totally get you. Games I have been winning with my deck are when I get 1-2 of those free creatures out and dont face significant grave hate - the value demands an answer once you get it going. If you never get going they are not "great" on a 1-1 basis - thats the downside of tempo-focused decks. When they run clunky they clunk - it is a very challenging balance and requires a commitment to that playstyle to be consistent (again I dont think it is possible to make an entirely tempo-focused zombie deck in edh, just to add value and make the deck operate more efficiently). These creatures are support cards - not the main course. If the main course isnt getting it done they will not help.

I still disagree with the sentiment against low-value free creatures though. Since they cost you nothing to bring back most of the time they are just freeing up your resources while adding value. To me it is obvious in the games I play, but of course that is how I play my deck haha.

I agree on the flashback cards. I think we should consider Memory Deluge. It seems at the very least a viable addition and it grows the second time you cast it. Instant speed, it seems nice. Perhaps better than the other blue draw X spells people are using but I am not sure. I dont think I have room for it but maybe some of you might like it.

Bone Dancer is just a card I was thinking about. I would happily give up a small amount damage to get a free body 9/10 times in games I play. It definitely skews towards "fun" over "competitive" 100% though.
Zombies ate my brains.
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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Memory Deluge is more expensive than what I was looking for, I think. 4 to look at 4 and take 2 is decent, but 7 to look at 7 and take 2 is more than I'd want to be spending in this deck. That would be decent in a more reactive shell. I was thinking Crawl from the Cellar (but probably not), Deep Analysis, MAYBE Divine Reckoning also 7 mana, and doesn't hit the best creature anyone has so probably not, Rite of Oblivion looks good, Rotten Reunion isn't great, but may be playable, Unburial Rites is a little on the high end for what I'd want to play for this effect, especially on the "front side", but having a reanimate ready to go from the yard looks very useful. I'd probably swap it for Obzedat's Aid, even though I really like that card for returning non-creature pieces.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

I really want to try out Really not sure what I'd cut to try these, not to mention the flashback stuff I'm considering. I was thinking about dropping Havengul Lich to make some room, but I also just added Snappy in here, and they play very well together, so i don't think I'd want to make that change until I've gotten to try it a few times. Also, in case you folks missed it, Havengul can target a creature in someone else's yard--you just have to be able to pay the actual mana cost if you want to cast it. You can gain activated abilities of relevant cards, or reanimate something good in your colors. Hasn't come up much, but I did recently reanimate an opponent's Archaeomancer 3 times in one game for major value.

Empty the Lab I think will be fantastic.
Hordewing is so/so, but it acts as a psuedo-back-up for our commander while also being a body with a bonus.
Rotbelly I envision as a psuedo-boardwipe that plays particularly will with the Decayed token production.
Champion I imagine will be underwhelming, but adding a 1-mana go tall guy to the list could be valuable, and having some stuff lower on the curve can be valuable.
Tainted Adversary looked pretty strong in a brawl game I played in yesterday.
Bladestitched is a cheaper lord, and may be playable. It's a decent body for the cost.
Procession competes with the Curse. I don't know that I'd run both. Procession being cheaper looks good, but we aren't running a lot of stuff to force creatures dying on other players' turns, so I think I'm leaning more toward the Curse.
Wilhelt is definitely going in. Looks super good!
Ghoul's Night Out probably isn't great here, but 5 mana to reanimate 4 creatures is a fantastic rate, AND it makes them zombies, which is super relevant.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

So I'm thinking of converting my Sygg build to Varina - but something I want to try is going *really* low on the curve side. Zero ramp at all (outside of stuff that lets me ramp with the zombie strategy:) just some fixing and a crapload of 1 drop and 2 drop zombies to fill in the gap.

Any of you guys have a good list of your favorite 1 and 2 drop zombies that don't make your decklists? I'll obviously dig through it myself but curious about your actual experiences :)

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
So I'm thinking of converting my Sygg build to Varina - but something I want to try is going *really* low on the curve side. Zero ramp at all (outside of stuff that lets me ramp with the zombie strategy:) just some fixing and a crapload of 1 drop and 2 drop zombies to fill in the gap.

Any of you guys have a good list of your favorite 1 and 2 drop zombies that don't make your decklists? I'll obviously dig through it myself but curious about your actual experiences :)
Shambling Ghast is on my must have list. Were in lockdown here in NZ so I'm waiting for my lgs to reopen so I can actually pick some new releases up. The shopping list of recent cards id like to grab is getting up there and this is definitely on my list.
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Post by demonicpic » 2 years ago

What's the deal with the tombstone icon by the name "Filth"? I ordered a copy of the card after seeing so much discussion here about it. I've never seen an icon like this in a title

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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

demonicpic wrote:
2 years ago
What's the deal with the tombstone icon by the name "Filth"? I ordered a copy of the card after seeing so much discussion here about it. I've never seen an icon like this in a title
This icon helps you keep in mind that the card can interact with your graveyard or do something while in your graveyard (we also see that icon with Judgment cards with flashback).


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