Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

LEH
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Post by LEH » 3 years ago

The deck ran really well tonight. I got eliminated first but I held off two other players winning turns then managed to grab the lead before I got Merciless Evictioned (which I managed to sac my board to Carrion Feeder), I then got Mindslicered taking both Living Death and Patriarch's Bidding :( I got Aether Gale cast against me (targeting me with everything!?/sadface) after I managed to rebuild the following turn and hit for lethal by Akiri, Line-Slinger that I had been picked with for a few turns but that was now equip with Cranial Plating and died to Commander damage. They died the next turn to Ghave, Guru of Spores infinite combo shenanigans.

Overall, I'm happy with how the deck ran. I'm unsure of starting hands and what to mulligan into but that will come with more experience with the deck. The deck was slow to take off that game but that didn't hurt as it allowed me to capitalise on securing myself for a take over and it came online right when I needed it to - I still lost but given what happened I didn't stand a chance at that point lol. I guess an issue with Varina is that the deck is very "out in the open" - unlike some decks (Ghave, etc. lol) which look fairly harmless until they drop 1 card and just pop into the lead, Varina seemingly looks relatively threatening even when it's just holding on to a truce. I enjoyed the deck though. Looking forward to testing it again tomorrow.

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

LEH wrote:
3 years ago
The deck ran really well tonight. I got eliminated first but I held off two other players winning turns then managed to grab the lead before I got Merciless Evictioned (which I managed to sac my board to Carrion Feeder),
Clever play, I approve.
LEH wrote:
3 years ago
I then got Mindslicered taking both Living Death and Patriarch's Bidding I got Aether Gale cast against me (targeting me with everything!?/sadface) after I managed to rebuild the following turn and hit for lethal by Akiri, Line-Slinger that I had been picked with for a few turns but that was now equip with Cranial Plating and died to Commander damage. They died the next turn to Ghave, Guru of Spores infinite combo shenanigans.
Rough meta, man. Ghave is not easy to combat, or to stop from comboing. FYI, this Mindslicer play is precisely why I want either a zombie Snapcaster Mage or a zombie Archaeomancer. There's not no options in that respect, but what's out there is not ideal (Dralnu, Lich Lord and Possessed Skaab, neither really fit well here). There's Mystic Sanctuary too, but that won't work with my land base; it might with yours.
LEH wrote:
3 years ago
I guess an issue with Varina is that the deck is very "out in the open" - unlike some decks (Ghave, etc. lol) which look fairly harmless until they drop 1 card and just pop into the lead, Varina seemingly looks relatively threatening even when it's just holding on to a truce. I enjoyed the deck though. Looking forward to testing it again tomorrow.
It is pretty overt, yeah. I guess on the other side of that is that not much of the stuff I run is kill on sight, barring maybe Alhammarret's Archive and Teferi's Ageless Insight - the beauty of the deck is that it doesn't overly care if your stuff gets nuked. Other than that, I find the most successful games I have are the ones where I'm able to read the board and shift between answering board states and actively pushing for the win myself well. It probably gets easier with a regular meta, which I don't have, but it'll also come with time piloting the deck for you as you learn how far your resources can stretch and how far you are from a win.

As far as Ghave goes, though, I don't trust anything that thing does. It combos with the tissue you just used to blow your nose and you should be wary of it even twitching. I can personally attest to how difficult it is to make a Ghave deck that doesn't combo.
LEH wrote:
3 years ago
I'm unsure of starting hands and what to mulligan into but that will come with more experience with the deck. The deck was slow to take off that game but that didn't hurt as it allowed me to capitalise on securing myself for a take over and it came online right when I needed it to - I still lost but given what happened I didn't stand a chance at that point lol.
In general, you want a fairly low to the ground starting hand with at least one turn 2-3 drop zombie, or optimally turn 1. Any answers, reanimation, other deck architecture you can start to dig for as long as you can swing. So as a quick idea, I'll do a few 'draw 7's from the decklist function on the first page:

Well, damn. This one's an easy keep to me. Your first turn play is Ancestry so you can untap turn 2 with 2 lands and drop a rock or Augur. From there you want to just....play out the rest of your hand, really. Optimally, you'd probably want to sacrifice a little efficiency in combat for a more expansive boardstate and drop Signet or Talisman turn 2, play Colossus turn 3 and the rest of your zombies to follow so you're getting some tokens in play, but that really depends on the board state. If it's cracking on really quick you just turn this about for bodies on the table quicker. Either way you should be on track to hit your commander turn 4, and at that point you could be digging pretty deep.

This is a pretty obvious mulligan.

It looks worse than it is. The only thing holding this back from being a golden start is lack of w. Even then you get 2 lords in hand, you can get one down turn 2 followed by the other the following, and there's a relatively good chance (especially with your fetch suite) you'll get to something that gives you the w you need to cast Varina. It's probably a risky keep but less risky than it looks.

Hope that helps; the key to a good start with the deck is early presence, even if it looks pathetic to the rest of the table. So long as you can turn sideways and get yourself some structure to your hand and/or graveyard, you can make some moves.
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yeti1069
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Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

The real question is whether you want to be competing on the same playing field as something like Ghave. If you do, it's easy enough to pop in 2-3 cards that can open up the potential for a combo finish.

For my part, I have a few combo options in my version, including Phyrexian Altar, Mikaeas, the Unhallowed, and Rooftop Storm, but each can do some serious work without being a combo piece. The downside, is sometimes you end up with a piece in your hand and don't want it, either because it won't actually help the game state, or because you're not at that kind of table. The upshot is, you have Varina, so one swing and those pieces turn into something more relevant. I've definitely pitched Altar and Rooftop in games where I wasn't trying to go nuts, whereas in others, I tripped and fell into a combo win against some nasty decks.

The most hilarious was someone played an Aven Mindcensor while I had a hand full of tutors. My intent had been to tutor for some ramp, draw, or mass reanimation, but when I spun the wheel to look at the top 4, I got 1 combo piece, and another the turn after, which closed out the game.

The core of the deck can be tweaked in a few ways, such as tuned for comboing, or to emphasize tokens, or more of an aristocrats or stax strategy. I've tooled around with these a little, and find that, really, all you need to change is 2-6 cards to carve out an additional win-con route without dramatically shifting what the deck does. Personally, I enjoy being able to aggro one player out, take another down with aristocrats pieces, and then finish the table off quickly with a combo if it's available. To me, that feels like "fair" Magic--I'm not hunting for a combo, and the gameplan doesn't rest on finding one, but it's there just in case.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
3 years ago
The core of the deck can be tweaked in a few ways, such as tuned for comboing, or to emphasize tokens, or more of an aristocrats or stax strategy. I've tooled around with these a little, and find that, really, all you need to change is 2-6 cards to carve out an additional win-con route without dramatically shifting what the deck does. Personally, I enjoy being able to aggro one player out, take another down with aristocrats pieces, and then finish the table off quickly with a combo if it's available. To me, that feels like "fair" Magic--I'm not hunting for a combo, and the gameplan doesn't rest on finding one, but it's there just in case.
So much all of this. I love the versatility of this deck, and this is absolutely correct. It's absolutely able to be tweaked in a number of different ways, and that flexibility makes it a lot of fun.
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Post by LEH » 3 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
3 years ago
The real question is whether you want to be competing on the same playing field as something like Ghave...
They're just being a bit naughty bringing something more overpowered than they should for testing but I don't mind myself; I don't think I'll be facing a deck like that in any of the rounds. Also, I think they have likely painted a big target on themselves for the next game - decks are supposed to be around 6 - (low)8 on the power scale. Most people playing abide by the criteria (there are a lot of point scoring opportunities and deductions for certain strategies, tutoring, killing everyone in the same turn, killing someone before turn 5, etc. etc. - put it this way, the Ghave deck would have scored the same as me despite them winning the game and me being eliminated first lol. There are a lot of budget decks too. Honestly, I love a good challenge. To be fair, the deck has enough answers to have handled the Ghave deck fine I just got eliminated before they combo-ed off. I stopped them a few turns earlier too - Austere Command (destroying All Artifacts [against Silas Renn, Seeker Adept and Akiri, Line-Slinger partner combination and taking out a bunch of Ghaves sac outlets] as well as destroying all creatures under 3 CMC with Varina, Lich Queen and Noxious Ghoul being my only two creatures in play at that point) a well timed Counterspell kept my opponents on the back foot for a number of turns.

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Post by LEH » 3 years ago

Finding the deck has answers for most situations. Stopped a cEDH Anje Falkenrath from combing off with Doomsday into Animate Dead into Worldgorger Dragon with a well timed Anguished Unmaking last night - it was a moral victory as he Pyroblasted my Varina. I died to the very next player though. Still currently chasing that win though. I'm finding it difficult to get/keep a Varina in play the last few games.

I'm thinking I need more Sweepers in the deck for my meta. I'm thinking along the lines of Toxic Deluge, Damnation or Kindred Dominance but it would be nice to hit Artifacts too. Merciless Eviction would be perfection if it wasn't for the Exile clause. Anyone know of anything along those lines?

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

LEH wrote:
3 years ago
Finding the deck has answers for most situations. Stopped a cEDH Anje Falkenrath from combing off with Doomsday into Animate Dead into Worldgorger Dragon with a well timed Anguished Unmaking last night - it was a moral victory as he Pyroblasted my Varina. I died to the very next player though. Still currently chasing that win though. I'm finding it difficult to get/keep a Varina in play the last few games.

I'm thinking I need more Sweepers in the deck for my meta. I'm thinking along the lines of Toxic Deluge, Damnation or Kindred Dominance but it would be nice to hit Artifacts too. Merciless Eviction would be perfection if it wasn't for the Exile clause. Anyone know of anything along those lines?
I do like to have a variety of options, and it generally has you covered for most. Keeping Varina in play I've never had huge problems with, but I think if it's an issue for you just make sure you have some options for digging/graveyard filling otherwise. Windfall, Dark Deal, Whispering Madness, Pull from Tomorrow, Read the Runes. Graveborn Muse is legit, too.

If you need more sweepers, you've got most of the good ones listed here. Deluge I think is probably the best in the format for efficiency. I'd love some more copies personally. The one other that I think could help you out here is Hour of Revelation - I run it in Bruna, and I can tell you with certainty that I have never, not even once, paid full cost for it. Tragic Arrogance could be decent too if you're finding there's multiple pieces you need to remove. It's done good work for me, but obviously might struggle with Voltron strategies.
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Post by LEH » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
LEH wrote:
3 years ago
Finding the deck has answers for most situations. Stopped a cEDH Anje Falkenrath from combing off with Doomsday into Animate Dead into Worldgorger Dragon with a well timed Anguished Unmaking last night - it was a moral victory as he Pyroblasted my Varina. I died to the very next player though. Still currently chasing that win though. I'm finding it difficult to get/keep a Varina in play the last few games.

I'm thinking I need more Sweepers in the deck for my meta. I'm thinking along the lines of Toxic Deluge, Damnation or Kindred Dominance but it would be nice to hit Artifacts too. Merciless Eviction would be perfection if it wasn't for the Exile clause. Anyone know of anything along those lines?
I do like to have a variety of options, and it generally has you covered for most. Keeping Varina in play I've never had huge problems with, but I think if it's an issue for you just make sure you have some options for digging/graveyard filling otherwise. Windfall, Dark Deal, Whispering Madness, Pull from Tomorrow, Read the Runes. Graveborn Muse is legit, too.

If you need more sweepers, you've got most of the good ones listed here. Deluge I think is probably the best in the format for efficiency. I'd love some more copies personally. The one other that I think could help you out here is Hour of Revelation - I run it in Bruna, and I can tell you with certainty that I have never, not even once, paid full cost for it. Tragic Arrogance could be decent too if you're finding there's multiple pieces you need to remove. It's done good work for me, but obviously might struggle with Voltron strategies.
Thank you for your reply. I'll be testing a few sweepers going forward I think. Toxic Deluge is certainly the most efficient. I'm going to be testing with adding Damnation first though - on the basis that it's better with Eldrazi Monument in play and the games I've played so far I've lost as a result of having too low of a life total that it's taken a single attack after a to take me out when the game reaches that end point. I'm trialling the change with the sweeper taking the place of Peer into the Abyss; I love the card but I've either not had the mana to cast it or I've found myself needing to hold up mana to stop someone from comboing off or I'm playing catch up. Where would you make the switch instead if you needed to?

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

LEH wrote:
3 years ago
Thank you for your reply. I'll be testing a few sweepers going forward I think. Toxic Deluge is certainly the most efficient. I'm going to be testing with adding Damnation first though - on the basis that it's better with Eldrazi Monument in play and the games I've played so far I've lost as a result of having too low of a life total that it's taken a single attack after a to take me out when the game reaches that end point. I'm trialling the change with the sweeper taking the place of Peer into the Abyss; I love the card but I've either not had the mana to cast it or I've found myself needing to hold up mana to stop someone from comboing off or I'm playing catch up. Where would you make the switch instead if you needed to?
I'd probably make the same switch to be honest. I've yet to have the opportunity to cast the card here and see what it's capable of. I've done it with Dralnu and it's won the game each time it was cast though. First time was with Psychosis Crawler in play and cast on myself. Straight gg, no muss no fuss. The second was with Primal Amulet // Primal Wellspring in play and flipped with Twinning Staff to accompany. It took someone from 60 odd life to 6 and put like 70 cards in their hand, but put them within killing distance of another player's Blood Artist, and I ended up winning the game next turn. So, yeah, it's nuts but I'm under no illusions that it is the pet card in this deck, and until it's been cast to prove itself its in the flex spot.

If life total is what's getting you there's a couple of other sweepers that could help out - Fumigate and Kaya's Wrath. I'd think either would be reasonable in place of Peer or something like Supreme Verdict which is pretty heavy for colour splash. It does sort of sound like you're missing the aristocrats in passing, but that can't really be helped either, you draw what you draw. Are you losing life to combat? If so I could totally see justifying something like Ghostly Prison or Propaganda to slow things down. Just a thought.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

So I made these changes a little while ago after tracking down some sought after pieces (with significant help):


We've talked over Reaper. It's fine but not spectacular, and I feel like the slight cost reduction of Warchief counts for more, as well as a pretty reasonable pump too. Grotto is pretty low cost recursion when nothing else is available, and with our draw power grabbing a body from the top of the library isn't hard. Sanitarium is far from bad, I just feel like the global draw is less beneficial for us than our opponents.
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Post by LEH » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
...I'd probably make the same switch to be honest. I've yet to have the opportunity to cast the card here and see what it's capable of. I've done it with Dralnu and it's won the game each time it was cast though. First time was with Psychosis Crawler in play and cast on myself. Straight gg, no muss no fuss. The second was with Primal Amulet // Primal Wellspring in play and flipped with Twinning Staff to accompany. It took someone from 60 odd life to 6 and put like 70 cards in their hand, but put them within killing distance of another player's Blood Artist, and I ended up winning the game next turn. So, yeah, it's nuts but I'm under no illusions that it is the pet card in this deck, and until it's been cast to prove itself its in the flex spot.

If life total is what's getting you there's a couple of other sweepers that could help out - Fumigate and Kaya's Wrath. I'd think either would be reasonable in place of Peer or something like Supreme Verdict which is pretty heavy for colour splash. It does sort of sound like you're missing the aristocrats in passing, but that can't really be helped either, you draw what you draw. Are you losing life to combat? If so I could totally see justifying something like Ghostly Prison or Propaganda to slow things down. Just a thought.
Fair. I definitely see it being bonkers when it's cast. I find it hilarious that Peer into the Abyss can function as both a win condition and/or as a huge value swing. Sadly, I think the spot is going to have to be something less fun in my meta :(

It's a combination of factors I think. I'm expressly going into games for "testing" so folks are running the deck through it's paces and, as such, I'm the default target when it's not clear who to attack - this is basically what I'm looking for though, to be fair. It doesn't help that I'm getting used to the deck and, almost certainly, making many mistakes while the winners of the games decks have, by their own admissions, been going off. Also... I'm a complete Shepherd of Rot slut - and have drawn it every game so far (I'm under no illusion that this is the real reason I'm losing at the end phases of the game - it's a lot of fun though).

It's not so much lifegain I'm looking for (at least right now) so adding Propaganda and/or Ghostly Prison maybe on the cards (so to speak). At least until the "testing" phase is over with... and I eventually realise that just because I CAN use Shepherd of Rot doesn't mean I SHOULD - again fun, no regrets.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

LEH wrote:
3 years ago
I'm a complete Shepherd of Rot slut
Man, if you ever add a signature to your profile here, this is the quote to use. I laughed my ass off.

But yeah, it's not always the best idea to use it repeatedly. I find it works just as well as a deterrent. Try threatening people with it instead; if they swing at you they will definitely lose life. And worst coming to worst it's a zombie to swing with. It's probably not even worst because swinging you guarantee you gain some life. Maybe mix up taking it into combat and using its ability to balance things out :P
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Post by LEH » 3 years ago

Deck went off! When this deck goes, it goes - I was drawing like 14+ cards a turn (Teferi's Ageless Insight is pretty absurd). End of Turn dumping Zombies and excess lands, ect. Eventually, hit Living Death with about 20 Zombies in GY and killed everyone with "Gary"*, Wayward Servant and Corpse Knight triggers. Truly bonkers!

*Gary = Gray Merchant of Asphodel.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

LEH wrote:
3 years ago
Deck went off! When this deck goes, it goes - I was drawing like 14+ cards a turn (Teferi's Ageless Insight is pretty absurd). End of Turn dumping Zombies and excess lands, ect. Eventually, hit Living Death with about 20 Zombies in GY and killed everyone with "Gary"*, Wayward Servant and Corpse Knight triggers. Truly bonkers!

*Gary = Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
Why Living Death is one of my favourite cards of all time. Mass reanimation is nice, but doubling as a board wipe is brilliant, especially when it can deal with gods/indestructibles too.

This sounds like a great win, and I'm glad the deck got off the ground for you this time. Once it gets a little momentum it's fairly hard not to come up with at least one angle, and that can make it hard to hold up enough answers for.
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Post by LEH » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
...Why Living Death is one of my favourite cards of all time. Mass reanimation is nice, but doubling as a board wipe is brilliant, especially when it can deal with gods/indestructibles too.

This sounds like a great win, and I'm glad the deck got off the ground for you this time. Once it gets a little momentum it's fairly hard not to come up with at least one angle, and that can make it hard to hold up enough answers for.
Yeah, Living Death is amazing. I have to find a good reason not to run it in the decks that can.

I've got another game booked in for tomorrow so I'll let you guys know how it goes. This time with my regular group (it was against a different group when it went off) so, hopefully, I'll get to show them what the deck is capable of doing.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Well, got in a game today, and won despite looking for all money like the first to be knocked out.

Against Akiri, Fearless Voyager, Ezuri, Claw of Progress and Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner. I got off to a relatively slow start with a couple of 2-drops in hand (Apprentice Necromancer and Corpse Knight) and struggled for colours at least a turn. I missed a land drop or two, and was considering Mirrorweaveing Ezuri's Oracle of Mul Daya until Akiri, Fearless Voyager wiped board.

Plodded on a turn or two and ran into Graveborn Muse with a couple zombies in play, although my life total was getting a touch low; as I was the least embodied player at the table I was the easy choice for attack triggers and keeping creatures alive. I landed Varina, Lich Queen and in an effort to get Graveborn Muse off the field swung with that. No one wanted to kill it.

Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner had to leave and scooped which always leads to weird board states that don't correlate well to the board state pre scoop. All that aside, Ezuri had a Mycoloth with 12 counters on it, and Akiri, Fearless Voyager didn't have removal. I did, but I wasn't going to fix someone else's problem, and Ezuri wasn't swinging at me. He one-shotted Akiri, Fearless Voyager out of the game and passed turn to me. Given the massive creatures he has on board I'm well within reach of death.

I untap, draw three from Graveborn Muse and drop to 22, and draw into Patriarch's Bidding. I swing with Varina, God-Eternal Oketra and Graveborn Muse, draw 3, gain 3 and discard 3 (3 zomies) and they're all chumped to death. 2nd main I cast Patriarch's Bidding and bring back 9 creatures, 2 of which were Wayward Servant and Corpse Knight. Ezuri took a couple of Akiri, Fearless Voyager hits and was on 16, so I had just enough life loss trigger to steal the game.

It was a bit of a strange game for resource, I didn't really take off for land or draw the way I'd have liked to. It's the first time I've run into colour issues as well. I noted on @WizardMN's Varina thread that he's got the two black-splashing filter lands, Sunken Ruins and Fetid Heath, which seem pretty reasonable for assurance of colours. It may well be worth looking into.
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Post by ChocoDude » 3 years ago

Just a quick chime in, I've been running Sunken Ruins and Fetid Heath for quite some time and I've been very happy with them. I pretty much run filter lands in all my multicolored decks and have rarely had issues. I'm not sure why some folks are so down on them. And, they're a decent price now with the reprints.

In general, I run fetches, shocks, pains, checks, and filters in my multicolored decks. It's worked well for me. Additionally, I prefer Talismans to Signets in terms of decks that need mana rocks.

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Post by Nimbaway » 3 years ago

Giving a quick thanks to toctheyounger and all those that contributed to this thread/primer. It's been an interesting read and welcome insight on Varina, which hopefully will help me to settle down on a first 99 for my own Varina deck, as she looks fun to play.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
3 years ago
Just a quick chime in, I've been running Sunken Ruins and Fetid Heath for quite some time and I've been very happy with them. I pretty much run filter lands in all my multicolored decks and have rarely had issues. I'm not sure why some folks are so down on them. And, they're a decent price now with the reprints.

In general, I run fetches, shocks, pains, checks, and filters in my multicolored decks. It's worked well for me. Additionally, I prefer Talismans to Signets in terms of decks that need mana rocks.
Yeah, filters seem great. I think the complaints about them come from folk who draw them early and get stuck with only colorless available. And I think the answer to that scenario most times will end up being mulling for a better starting hand, but I'm sure there's scenarios where its unavoidable. I think it'll end up being a decent addition once I've got hands on them. My LGS is currently out of them, but I'm sure they'll be great additions once I have them, and there's no better time to grab them than now.

FWIW my checks, shocks and tangos here have been mostly sufficient to make a pretty smooth engine. And I totally agree re signets/talismans. The full suite of talismans really need reprinting.
Nimbaway wrote:
3 years ago
Giving a quick thanks to toctheyounger and all those that contributed to this thread/primer. It's been an interesting read and welcome insight on Varina, which hopefully will help me to settle down on a first 99 for my own Varina deck, as she looks fun to play.
Welcome! And you're welcome, I've enjoyed every minute of this thread, it's been super productive for me, and I hope it's been that way for other contributors too. Feel free to chime in at any point, and I hope you enjoy putting a list together and getting some game time in. Varina has been lots of fun for me, and I hope she is for you too :)
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
ChocoDude wrote:
3 years ago
Just a quick chime in, I've been running Sunken Ruins and Fetid Heath for quite some time and I've been very happy with them. I pretty much run filter lands in all my multicolored decks and have rarely had issues. I'm not sure why some folks are so down on them. And, they're a decent price now with the reprints.

In general, I run fetches, shocks, pains, checks, and filters in my multicolored decks. It's worked well for me. Additionally, I prefer Talismans to Signets in terms of decks that need mana rocks.
Yeah, filters seem great. I think the complaints about them come from folk who draw them early and get stuck with only colorless available. And I think the answer to that scenario most times will end up being mulling for a better starting hand, but I'm sure there's scenarios where its unavoidable. I think it'll end up being a decent addition once I've got hands on them. My LGS is currently out of them, but I'm sure they'll be great additions once I have them, and there's no better time to grab them than now.

FWIW my checks, shocks and tangos here have been mostly sufficient to make a pretty smooth engine. And I totally agree re signets/talismans. The full suite of talismans really need reprinting.
I think this is pretty close to the truth. Since the main options of ABUR duals, shocks, fetches, buddy lands, pain lands, and possibly tangoes (if you like them; I do) tend to fill up quite a few slots, filters don't always make the cut. Especially when trying to add in other utility lands.

I know I only really found room for Fetid Heath after going down on some utility lands that I went a little overboard on but I do think there are a lot more options for lands that come before filters in general that it can be hard to slot them in. And I know I wouldn't want the Blue/White one in this deck because it is so focused on black whereas I will still include the Blue/White duals in the other lands.

As for Talismans vs Signets, I have sort of gone back and forth on them. I like the Signets since they get two colors at once while Talismans only get one. So, something like Corpse Knight can be cast with an Island and an Orzhov Signet for example. And they don't deal damage.

They can be awkward sometimes of course. But, in general, I don't run many decks that run one over the other. In my Varina list for example, I run 2 signets and 2 Talismans (leaving out Blue/White for both) so I don't often have to choose.

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
I think this is pretty close to the truth. Since the main options of ABUR duals, shocks, fetches, buddy lands, pain lands, and possibly tangoes (if you like them; I do) tend to fill up quite a few slots, filters don't always make the cut. Especially when trying to add in other utility lands.

I know I only really found room for Fetid Heath after going down on some utility lands that I went a little overboard on but I do think there are a lot more options for lands that come before filters in general that it can be hard to slot them in. And I know I wouldn't want the Blue/White one in this deck because it is so focused on black whereas I will still include the Blue/White duals in the other lands.
Yeah, very much this. I guess if you're buying your way up, filters are a good option, but if you've already got fetches and ABUR's, you probably don't need to bother. I'm picking up a Heath, but my LGS doesn't have a Ruins at the moment, so it's one to keep an eye out for.
WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
As for Talismans vs Signets, I have sort of gone back and forth on them. I like the Signets since they get two colors at once while Talismans only get one. So, something like Corpse Knight can be cast with an Island and an Orzhov Signet for example. And they don't deal damage.

They can be awkward sometimes of course. But, in general, I don't run many decks that run one over the other. In my Varina list for example, I run 2 signets and 2 Talismans (leaving out Blue/White for both) so I don't often have to choose.
This is a good point. I gotta be honest, my experience with Signets in this build has been fairly lackluster, but I sort of try to keep my fixing simple where I can, and they bug me in that they're not that. I can totally recognise that this is very much a personal preference though. Talismans have just been simple, quick, and mostly fuss free. Also, Arcane Signet has meant I really don't need so much to rely on the original signets if I don't want to.
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yeti1069
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Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

I generally prefer Talismans over Signets. Yes, the latter can fix for two colors at once, but I prefer having rocks that can tap for mana without needing another resource. I find it more valuable to pay 2 on turn two and have 1 mana available than pay 2 and have nothing up, for example.

Turn 2 Talisman --> 1 drop, or hold mana up for something like Swan Song is way better than whatever the Signets are doing, in my opinion.

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Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

Just had a grindy game against some big plays that I managed to pull out at the end with an interesting sequencing.

Sac Gray Merchant of Asphodel to Phyrexian Tower with Undead Augur and Unholy Grotto in play.
Respond to Augur trigger by activating Grotto to put Gary back on top of library.
Draw and play Gary FTW.

Putrid Imp and Bone Miser did some work for me as well.

Also, I want to reiterate that I feel playing the counterspells that require only rather than (Delay, Arcane Denial, Swan Song) is the way to go in a 3-color deck where Blue isn't the primary color. In general, I try to limit how many cards I run with or in their mana cost. I think God-Eternal Oketra and Kindred Discovery are the only ones.


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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
3 years ago
Also, I want to reiterate that I feel playing the counterspells that require only rather than (Delay, Arcane Denial, Swan Song) is the way to go in a 3-color deck where Blue isn't the primary color. In general, I try to limit how many cards I run with or in their mana cost. I think God-Eternal Oketra and Kindred Discovery are the only ones.
I generally agree. I don't have a copy of Delay myself, and my only Swan Song is in use, but I can see the value in splashing as minimally as possible.
ChocoDude wrote:
3 years ago
In that vein, I've been thinking of replacing my Reconnaissance with Stubborn Denial. It's especially good with Varina on the board.
Not the worst idea in the world tbh. It does hinge on having a lord or our commander in play, but the CMC and price could not be better. Well, it could, but I'm not made of money.
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| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

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