Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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Nimbaway
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Post by Nimbaway » 2 years ago

Haven't had much time to play lately but looking at the spoilers of Midnight Hunt so far, things have been a bit disappointing for my Varina deck. Rotten Reunion is something I'm going to be trying out and maybe Vanquish the Horde. I've been light on boardwipes for a while, as building a board encourages others to have them and it has been allowing me to avoid some double white cards. So will have to see if the latter makes it in.

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plaganegra
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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

Rotten Reunion

Very interesting card! For 3 mana you get 4 power across 2x 2/2 decayed and up to 2 exiles. This is probably the most efficient zombie token generator printed to date.

I like the card a lot but it brings up an awkward scenario. I cant consider this a 1-drop in the deck because you really cannot get value out of it in a multiplayer game before you can take advantage of a temporary zombie - so with Varina in play most likely. If you play this turn 1, that zombie is going to sit there until t3 at the earliest before you really want to attack with it. This to me seems like a big problem.

Playing it later is much more beneficial because with Varina you are now cycling two more cards, and later in the game you might also have a sac outlet or some drain effects that can double dip on these triggers.

Its a very strong card either way but I am not sure about adding it to my list. Does anyone else feel similar? I am so torn…

And wtf. Where is geralf? No show.
Zombies ate my brains.
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Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

What do you think of Siege Zombie? 2/2 for 2, tap 3 creatures to have opponents lose 1 life. Seems like a solid card.
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plaganegra
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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

@yeti1069

I think it is probably one of the worst "playable" zombie 2-drops. Which means most often it gets left out for something else.

It compares very poorly to cryptbreaker and shepherd of rot. Which kind of shows the card is very low on the power and efficiency scale.

Unless you have a way to consistently make a ton of zombies to tap - but then you would just attack right? Except the turn they come in.

I just don't see any reason to include this personally.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
Kvothe wrote:
2 years ago
Falkenbach wrote:
2 years ago


At the moment i am running only 3: Patriarch's Bidding, Zombie Apocalypse and Living Death,
I saw 6 mana passing by in the thread wich for 8 mana could be instant speed that i might consider, to bad i can't find the name of it anymore :(
Twilight's Call
There's also Pyrrhic Revival as an option. I think on balance theres some stuff of ours that'll die instantly, but Mike will fix that right up. And it'll mean anything low to the ground goes right back where it came from on the other sides of the board. Great if goblins or elves are in your meta.
I saw the mentioning of Balthor the Defiled in wizards section as mass reanimate option. I am gonna try this out first before buying the two above. I think 4 mass reanimate is the best number for this deck. I will let you guys know if hes alright or clunky.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

After my last game, I think I am also going to try out Balthor in Phyrexian Devourer's spot. After the discussion earlier and thinking on it some more, it actually does allow for some interesting lines. I still don't think it ends up being better than the 3 top options (Living Death, Patriarch's Bidding, and Zombie Apocalypse) but I could see it being at least on par with Twilight's Call and at close to the rest of the options we have. I wouldn't say so for sure without further testing, but there is potential there.

To Toc's point, I do like Pyrrhic Revival as well and we don't have a lot that will just straight up die. I only have 5 in my deck for example and that assumes no lords return. My main concern is that sometimes we really want Carrion Feeder or Shepherd of Rot to survive but, ultimately, Revival might be worth a closer look as well. It does lower our power on board so even for the things that survive the lower overall power we have available might not be good enough.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

It's a 9 mana investment over two turns, and not a great topdeck, but so far Haunted Voyage has worked well for me.
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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
@yeti1069

I think it is probably one of the worst "playable" zombie 2-drops. Which means most often it gets left out for something else.

It compares very poorly to cryptbreaker and shepherd of rot. Which kind of shows the card is very low on the power and efficiency scale.

Unless you have a way to consistently make a ton of zombies to tap - but then you would just attack right? Except the turn they come in.

I just don't see any reason to include this personally.
My thinking was that after a mass reanimate it does some work. If does some work with Zombie Infestation. If you don't have open attacks, or creatures your don't want to swing with, it does some work.

I figure, if I definitely have situations where I'm activating Cryotbreaker, then I'll probably have the same situations but without Cryptbreaker. Also, pairs nicely with anything that makes Decayed tokens if you don't want to swing with them (or just made a few this turn).

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Reya
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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

The Meathook Massacre is probably better than Siege Zombie

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Innistrad: Midnight Hunt Set Review




We've all pored through these recently, so none of this is going to be stellar critique, but I know there's pieces that other folk have talked over that I haven't weighed in on as of yet, so I'll collate my thoughts and see where we end up.

Artifacts/Colorless/Lands

  • Moonsilver Key - Like Expedition Map but worse. At least, here, anyway. There's really no way in this deck to get an efficient return on investment for this one, so I will pass.
  • Pithing Needle|MID - I'm not planning to run this, I just wanted to say the art on this one is grotesque. It's kind of perfect.



White


  • Fateful Absence - It's nice, but I will probably pass. Given our mass reanimation, I'd prefer spot removal to exile, so if I add anything it'll be Path to Exile (the main reason putting someone else ahead on lands makes it more likely my Land Tax and Archaeomancer's Map will trigger.
  • Vanquish the Horde - Whether or not it ends up a mainstay here I want a couple copies. Much like it's predecessor Blasphemous Act it's going to end up a staple. It's almost impossible board wipes get much cheaper than this, so it's worth grabbing them while they're about, so long as the price is reasonable. I'll definitely try it here regardless.

Blue

  • Drownyard Amalgam - This is just too high on the curve to be a reasonable consideration to my mind.
  • Falcon Abomination - It's quality is above its cost, with 2 2/2's for 3, one of which has flying. And. That. Flavor. Text. It's not amazing, but definitely not the worst either. There's every chance as a tempo add curving into Varina it's better than a basic lord.
  • Larder Zombie - We've been over this one. Defender does hurt. I'd look past it, but the rate of mill isn't great either. If we were at 2 or 3 mill for 3 zombies, I'd be looking past the defender easily. As it is, I'll pass.
  • Organ Hoarder - Too costly. The ability isn't bad, it's similar to Forbidden Alchemy which isn't bad either. It's just more than I want to pay is all.
  • Otherworldly Gaze - Actually a really good rate for what it does. Very cheap the first and second time, it's not a bad option. It doesn't dig quite as deep as Fact or Fiction or Epiphany at the Drownyard but if you don't own either this'll do nicely.

Black


  • Bloodline Culling - Tech against our decks if anything. This would be a reasonable versatile inclusion for anyone who doesn't have sufficient sacrifice outlets (speaking of, once Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver is available, Blasting Station makes a really nasty sac outlet here).
  • Champion of the Perished - I love the pun, but that's really all I love. I just don't care how big it gets, and for that reason I'm out.
  • Diregraf Horde - Efficient bodies to CMC ratio, but more than I want to pay, and nothing special.
  • Ghoulish Procession - Hmmm....this one is a tricky one. You can sacrifice to trigger it, sure, but once a turn is tough. The interesting thing is it triggers from any creature. So there is a fair chance you could be adding a creature for every player in a turn cycle with the right stuff in play. It makes a case for Grimgrin, Corpse-Born, and Noxious Ghoul. I'm not entirely sold, but it's possible to get some value from this one.
  • Hobbling Zombie - Meh. I have no interest in this one, the cost isn't good enough.
  • The Meathook Massacre - I really like the versatility this card offers. It's not premium removal, nor is it premium aristocracy, but it is both in reasonable ways, it's in our primary color and it's retrievable with Sevinne's Reclamation and Hall of Heliod's Generosity. I think it'll give some utility, and the flavour is a home run for me.
  • Rotten Reunion - I saw this one come up a couple of times. It's fine, but I probably won't play it myself. Thing is, it's not a creature, so you get one shot at it, because let's face it, there's very few situations this is the card you recur with Mission Briefing or Snapcaster Mage. Then there's the playing it early conundrum; that's when you want the token, but it's not when you want the exile. The beauty of Withered Wretch is that it's bargian basement targeted exile whenever you want it. Playing this one early in the game nine times out of ten the best you get is a fetch land, and that just isn't worth aiming for.
  • Siege Zombie - It's a fine effect, but the rate just isn't very good.

Multicolored


  • Bladestitched Skaab - It's fine, I guess. I don't know that I want this over any of the other lords, so I'm not really sold on it at present.
  • Corpse Cobble - I just don't care about a beater is the problem with this card. It's fine, but it isn't Plumb the Forbidden, which has been very good for me.
  • Rite of Oblivion - Actually, not bad. It trumps Utter End for me, as we can exile stuff that doesn't matter really anyway (if only my zombies heard the way I talk about them behind their backs). This is pretty reasonable removal, I'm just sad it isn't instant speed.
All in all, it's a bit of a mixed bag for us so far. There's still commander decklist spoilers to come, so 15 further possible inclusions, including the absolute tank that Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver is going to be. And the twin set of Crimson Vow later down the line too; fairly sure we'll get a few more inclusions at that point.

I guess as for additions to my actual list at this point, there's some I'll pop into flex slots, but nothing I'm super sold on being permanent. That said, thinking over these and Wilhelt led me to Blasting Station and the more I think about that one the more I like it. I might try to pick up a copy in the coming days, it could be quite good here. It also goes well with Tombstone Stairwell, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Sevinne's Reclamation, and our mass reanimation. Damn.
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Reya
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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

You forgot to mention Tainted Adversary 😉

But you find it not very interesting I think ? Quite expensive and tokens have decayed.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Reya wrote:
2 years ago
You forgot to mention Tainted Adversary 😉

But you find it not very interesting I think ? Quite expensive and tokens have decayed.
Crap i did too! I mean I don't hate it. I just think the cost to token ratio isn't as good as I'd like. I could be wrong, but I also don't want to be the person to find out if I'm wrong. I don't think itll cost megabucks but at the same time I got a bit if a shopping list for bits abd pieces for various decks that I intend to trade for so one more mythic that I'm not convinced of just doesn't make the cut.
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Reya
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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

Yeah I'm not very convinced about Tainted Adversary… the body + deathtouch is really good but if I want a solid 2 drop, I can run Bladestitched Skaab !

We need more testing to find out if decayed tokens are good enough.

But it's not the same with Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver. The body is correct and the token generation is kind of « free ». Plus, you will very often draw a card at end of turn. There is no downside of running him.

Now, about the "core" of the deck: what do you think of cutting Undead Warchief ? We can run 6-7 lords that cost 2 or 3 now. I'm wondering if we need a lord that cost 4 ? It's quite expensive for a lord effect and the cost reduction is not relevant.

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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

Personally i would never drop the warchief. I like his big buff to our zombies and i had games ( late games that is ) were i could drop a zombie and hold up mana for removal or varina token maker to make his cost reduction relevant. But to be honest i have run him in all my versions of zombie decks Grimgrin gisa and geralf etc.. so iam biased and hes one of ly pet cards :D I can see your point with him being 4 mana which is the Varina drop spot.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Reya wrote:
2 years ago
Now, about the "core" of the deck: what do you think of cutting Undead Warchief ? We can run 6-7 lords that cost 2 or 3 now. I'm wondering if we need a lord that cost 4 ? It's quite expensive for a lord effect and the cost reduction is not relevant.
Like Falkenbach, my reaction is that I would never cut it. However, there might be an argument for it. The biggest thing is is the mana cost as mentioned: 4 mana being the same as Varina makes things odd. The buff is pretty good though. And the cost reduction can be relevant though not as often as I would like. I don't think it is worthy of a cut quite yet, but I could see maybe in the distant future after Wizards decides to give us more good zombies.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

I'd run Aven Eternal sooner than Falcon Abomination. You get 1 less power, but the token can block and attack more than once. The deck isn't running enough (any) Amass anyway, so it's almost always making a creature, rather than buffing an existing Army token.

Ghoulish Procession I think is likely worth it. May make sense to lean into it with Call to the Grave. Probably not, but it's a neat "combo". Making 1 zombie token a turn would be decent, but the potential to make one per player each turn cycle seems good. We're just not set up to force that, really.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

That is a good point on the Eternal. I too would value the permanence of the token more highly than the additional power and since there isn't any other Amass in the deck, as you stated, it will always provide a token.

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Post by Eburon » 2 years ago

Too many cards being spoiled from the commander deck to all share right now, but damn, there are some spicy ones.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2021-09-13

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Post by Eburon » 2 years ago

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RedCheese
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Post by RedCheese » 2 years ago

Tomb Tyrant saddens me to no end

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RedCheese
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Post by RedCheese » 2 years ago

The lack of cheap zombies also saddens me. I guess the Turtle zombie can get cheaper and is a cool card

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Post by Nimbaway » 2 years ago

Empty the Laboratory will be fun with Tombstone Stairwell and I feel that Cleaver Skaab could be a nice addition as well.

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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

maybe the hordewing skaab will replace my eldrazi monument I'm not sure Toc still runs this.
Sad to see so many 4 or 5 drops

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Post by demonicpic » 2 years ago

Nimbaway wrote:
2 years ago
Empty the Laboratory will be fun with Tombstone Stairwell and I feel that Cleaver Skaab could be a nice addition as well.
Isn't it easier to get Wonder into the graveyard than to cast Cleaver Skaab and keep it on the battlefield?

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Post by RedCheese » 2 years ago

Only the commander and Empty the Laboratory are cards i would consider for varinna. I guess Rotbelly is fine, but not enough hoenstly. What a disapointing precon.

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