Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

@plaganegra how have you found the MDFC lands? I've not had a chance to use them anywhere, and they're within my price range.

Surprised you're still on Sword of the Animist too, given how few basics you run in this list. You could probably swap that out for a Tithe or something and not miss it.
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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
This is my land breakdown and ramp package - it has been working better than any varina manabase I have used up until this point. My average nonland cmc is 2.66
I'm a bit iffy on playing any of the bounce lands tbh. They provide some utility in functionally adding an extra land slot, which is nice (drawing one is basically hitting two land drops, albeit slowly).

I'm somewhat iffy on Ancient Tomb too--it has utility primarily if you're hitting critical mass of signets. Otherwise it's pressuring your life total for acceleration you often won't be able to use because of constraints on colors. It's good for sure to be able to accelerate but not making colors and especially not making black can be a problem. I think it's probably worse than Mana Confluence or City of Brass a significant portion of the time. I personally skip all of those for a stupid reason (to avoid book-keeping, and my tombs are all in decks:P) but without the tomb->signet interaction it's quite a lot worse.

In my manabase, there're some downsides to Sunken Hollow and Fabled Passage in comparison, but those add some flexibility. I'm not willing to cut the fetchable count much lower but I could see adding a Morphic Pool and Vault of Champions to mine (cutting two swamps probably, sadly). The problem with that is that I run out of basics pretty fast that way.

I'm all onboard with your mana rock package. I don't quite have enough blue to support Nightscape Apprentice but it might be worth it just being a decent zombie who accelerates Varina and regenerates. I played that in a blue heavy deck once and it was great. Arcane Signet is hit or miss to me, I don't play it but I see no real reason it wouldnt' be reasonable - it's a lot of fixing and not a lot of tempo.
Re: Bounce Lands. Orzhov Basilica
I think I am just attached to them from the old days of EDH when you always jammed every single one you could into decks lol. I do feel like they give me a hedge with my land count of 35, but I have almost removed the Orzhov Basilica multiple times.

Here is a big bonus to the bounce lands - getting two lands for one allows you to keep a "land" in your hand while also "playing" a land. This gives you better card selection when discarding to Varina cycle triggers (similar to the reason why Land tax is so awesome, although much less so). This is a noteworthy interaction I find, so they do have value. I would never run the UW one though...

Re: Ancient Tomb
I actually think you are over-focused on synergy with rocks. Rocks were never the reason I played the tomb, but they are great with it. I find Ancient Tomb to be incredible turns 2-3 and after I drop Varina, allowing me to cast multiple zombies in one turn much more easily. I run a lot of 2-drops and 3-drops, so the extra colorless mana is pretty big at times. This is a colorless land I would never cut from the deck TBH. Every time I try it goes back in and I regret it. Also, it also helps me stay at 35 lands instead of 36, even though the benefit is admittedly minor in that regard.

re: Nightscape Familiar
This one I am trying out since I reorganized my mana rock situation. I don't have a ton of cards that can use the discount, but I was thinking it was good enough that it makes Varina cheaper to cast since I recast her multiple times in a game usually. The regen is a bonus. Might take this out for something else though but I need to give it time in the deck for a while to know...

@pzbw7z
36-37 is probably the right number of lands in Varina decks most of the time. I think I am cheating a little at 35, but I have a lot of ways to make up for that in general.

Re: Castle Locthwain
I think this land is totally playable, but I know in games I play I almost always have no need for it personally. The off chance it CIPT makes me stay away from it.

re: Unholy Grotto
Definitely worth getting, surprised it was not reprinted in the commander deck TBH. I have an extra one in my "deckbox.org" trade account. My name is "Plaganegra" on there too. Happy to send it your way!

re: Underground River and pain lands.
These always have had a place in my decks because of how reliable they are. I think Mana Confluence is probably correct though. Thanks @pokken for reminding me I can use 5c lands in this deck rofl.

Can you use one of the cycling WB duals instead? I forget which cycles have which color combinations lol. Darn Wizards for never finishing cycles of lands.
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
@plaganegra how have you found the MDFC lands? I've not had a chance to use them anywhere, and they're within my price range.

Surprised you're still on Sword of the Animist too, given how few basics you run in this list. You could probably swap that out for a Tithe or something and not miss it.
I haven't used any of the MDFC lands I think, I prefer pain lands over these. I also do not run Sword of the Animist - the only "basic matters" cards I am on currently are land tax and prismatic vista I think.
Last edited by plaganegra 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by Nikerym » 2 years ago

While I know it's not a zombie, but have you considered Pitiless Plunderer? Seems pretty insane with the stuff this deck is trying to do, also if Haakon is a staple then the 1/1 unlockable changeling for B seems decent for the same reason the adventure knight does.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

Nikerym wrote:
2 years ago
While I know it's not a zombie, but have you considered Pitiless Plunderer? Seems pretty insane with the stuff this deck is trying to do, also if Haakon is a staple then the 1/1 unlockable changeling for B seems decent for the same reason the adventure knight does.
Hahaha.. I forgot changelings were knights lol. I would say the changeling is even better than the knight but running both is probably the way to go!

I have not tried pitiless plunderer in my deck, but maybe @pokken should with his mass sacrifice and mass reanimate plan. Tough in the 4cmc slot
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
Here is a big bonus to the bounce lands - getting two lands for one allows you to keep a "land" in your hand while also "playing" a land. This gives you better card selection when discarding to Varina cycle triggers (similar to the reason why Land tax is so awesome, although much less so). This is a noteworthy interaction I find, so they do have value. I would never run the UW one though...
Yeah I totally acknowledge that :) (in fact said basically similar) Just entering tapped is what's pretty brutal. I think they are defensible just not for me.
plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
Re: Ancient Tomb
I actually think you are over-focused on synergy with rocks. Rocks were never the reason I played the tomb, but they are great with it. I find Ancient Tomb to be incredible turns 2-3 and after I drop Varina, allowing me to cast multiple zombies in one turn much more easily. I run a lot of 2-drops and 3-drops, so the extra colorless mana is pretty big at times. This is a colorless land I would never cut from the deck TBH. Every time I try it goes back in and I regret it. Also, it also helps me stay at 35 lands instead of 36, even though the benefit is admittedly minor in that regard.
Yeah I wouldn't argue that it's bad, but I think without signets you will run into a lot of scenarios where you're doming yourself for a lot and the extra mana often goes to waste when you have to play it early. I'll definitely give it a second look but so far I think I'm stuck at wanting Field of the Dead more. The free zomboes just add up so fast.

Nikerym wrote:
2 years ago
While I know it's not a zombie, but have you considered Pitiless Plunderer? Seems pretty insane with the stuff this deck is trying to do, also if Haakon is a staple then the 1/1 unlockable changeling for B seems decent for the same reason the adventure knight does.
I had Pitiless Plunderer in there. It's just so expensive manawise. I never really had the ability to take a turn off for it. And not being hit by zombie apocalypse or bidding is a problem.

Changeling Outcast is great and on my maybe list for sure. I gotta pull one down from the modern horizons bulk :) edit: It was the first card in my mh2 bulk box:P

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
Re: Ancient Tomb
I actually think you are over-focused on synergy with rocks. Rocks were never the reason I played the tomb, but they are great with it. I find Ancient Tomb to be incredible turns 2-3 and after I drop Varina, allowing me to cast multiple zombies in one turn much more easily. I run a lot of 2-drops and 3-drops, so the extra colorless mana is pretty big at times. This is a colorless land I would never cut from the deck TBH. Every time I try it goes back in and I regret it. Also, it also helps me stay at 35 lands instead of 36, even though the benefit is admittedly minor in that regard.
Yeah I wouldn't argue that it's bad, but I think without signets you will run into a lot of scenarios where you're doming yourself for a lot and the extra mana often goes to waste when you have to play it early. I'll definitely give it a second look but so far I think I'm stuck at wanting Field of the Dead more. The free zomboes just add up so fast.
I think there are so few extra "colorless" land slots we can use it becomes a hard decision. For me Ancient Tomb is below the other three I run in Grotto, Nykthos, and Phyrexian Tower. I can see why you would prefer Field of the Dead over Ancient Tomb since your deck has a lot of ways to get lands. I find I am rarely over 9 lands when the game is over, so prioritize the early game versatility of Ancient tomb over more of a late game value engine. I dont run crucible or anything.

Over the course of a game, if I drop Ancient tomb on T2 (usually if its in my opener) I will probably lose 8-12 life from it. I feel that Varina's triggers make that really negligible most of the time and the extra mana offsets the downside in speed I can churn out zombies.

I also run mana crypt, and when I have both out at once - sometimes that can be a bit much lol. That is always something I try to avoid as I can usually not take advantage of that much colorless mana until later in the game. So I would hold the crypt in hand until I need it or bin it to a varina discard. It happens rarely though.

Anyway - how many colorless lands do you think is an acceptable range in a 3 color midrange deck? I arrived at 3-4 in my estimation. I used to play 5-6 when I started with the deck, but that was wayy too many lol.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Reya
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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

For my manabase your can find my list here: https://deckstats.net/decks/144003/1457764-varina/fr

Heavy fetchlands manabase with a lot of basics swamps. Outside of Mana Drain, blue is totaly a splash, like white (I avoid WW cost). I removed every land not producing black mana. Exception of Hallowed fountain and Tundra (maybe hallowed fountain is cuttable but I need to cast Mana Drain sometimes... UU is not so easy). I like Isolated Chapel and Drowned Catacombs. Both are easy cuts but it's so easy to have them untapped. Sunken Hollow feels great everytime, easy to untap with 13 basics + 8 fetches. (I hope we will soon have WB Sunken Hollow).

I'm all in on fetchlands, Urborg and Coffers now. I ignored Nykthos and Crypt of Agadeem. Coffers is so powerful and so efficient that I don't feel the need of the others big mana lands.

And some feedbacks after a very interesting game:

I was against a recurring Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite [/card] + Emeria, the Sky Ruin... god that was a pain in the ass to deal with! Given the fact my only directs answers to Elesh are Generous Gift and Anguished Unmaking (Generous Gift was used to destroy a early Mana Vault to prevent non sens ramping). I have Grimgrin too but, even after drawing 82 cards of my deck, he was still in the last 18 !!!

I was able to win that game thanks to my dear Noxious Ghoul! (and some others friends as well). The game was so grindy. It cames the turn where I decided to crack Expedition Map EoT to find Cabal Coffers (Urborg was already on Battlefield). So on my turn I had only Gray Merchant, Noxious Ghoul and Varina on battlefield, everything else was dying to Elesh.... (here I would have needed Mikaeus probably). Thanks to Coffers and Urborg I had 21 mana available. I exiled 20 cards from my grave to activate Varina 10 times and trigger 10 times Ghoul and kill Elesh that was 7/10... only to realize the next turn my opponent had Emeria... I survided the next 2 turns by activating Ghoul again and again thanks to zombies going to graveyard by playing them, and Varina's activations. I never exiled Wayward servant and Corpse Knight from my grave. My only hope was to find Epiphany at the drownyard, Diregraf captain (in case of drawing a mass reanimation) or maybe Grimgrin. But in fact my survival came thanks to Liliana's Standard Bearer! I was able to draw like 8 cards and find Patriarch's Bidding, Twilight's Call and Swan Song! Finaly the game came to an end with aristocrates. (This game was even harder thanks to Helios, sun-crowned on my opponent board)

So I stay on the Noxious Ghoul clan for now :D

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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

Tormod, the Desecrator actually has alot more synergy than i first thought!! @plaganegra have you not found it awkward to cast him at the 4 mana spot? or do you cast him always after Varina (or not at all an reanimate him) ?

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
Anyway - how many colorless lands do you think is an acceptable range in a 3 color midrange deck? I arrived at 3-4 in my estimation. I used to play 5-6 when I started with the deck, but that was wayy too many lol.
So I run 36(7) lands, and I count colorless producers as (although coffers is more of a "mostly produces colors but contributes to mulling hands because it rarely is going to cast Varina on curve", and tower often will be able to make BB on curve for me) -- the 37th land is Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt which I think is a straight autoinclude in this deck.
I think you roughly should be running ~30-35 color producing lands, and the number of colorless lands doesn't matter so much as that if you want to make 1UWB by turn 4 a majority of the time. There's detailed math involved in that that I don't bother with, but basically you need to see 1 of each color in 11 cards plus a mulligan. With just simplistic hypogemetric calculations with 30 lands that make colors you'll get >= 3 color producing lands in 11 cards like 70% of the time (significantly worse chance you hit 1 of each color of course).

(I have 32, and if you pretend coffers and tower are half of one each, 33).

Which is not amazing, but Ponder and Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top, Epiphany at the Drownyard, Skullclamp and Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight factor into that some, plus Weathered Wayfarer Expedition Map and Demonic Tutor, and Phyrexian Altar can sometimes bridge the gap too. Oh, and Sevinne's Reclamation and Mystical Tutor and Plumb the Forbidden, and even Intuition.

I suspect with all things considered, including mulligans, I probably have around 85-90% chance to hit Varina on turn 4 which I can live with. Even if some of the time that means I have to Demonic Tutor for Crucible of Worlds or Polluted Delta.

--

TLDR around 32?

30 = 70%, 32 = 75%, 33 = 78%.

edit: I should add that in your build Arcane Signet, Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox should be probably be considered as color producing lands.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

Falkenbach wrote:
2 years ago
Tormod, the Desecrator actually has alot more synergy than i first thought!! @plaganegra have you not found it awkward to cast him at the 4 mana spot? or do you cast him always after Varina (or not at all an reanimate him) ?
Great question - I only cast Varina in the 4 drop spot on curve in a typical game. Everything else comes after for value or in a mass reanimate.

If someone milled me and hit 2+ recursion creatures on T3 I might play Tormod over Varina, and followup with Varina, but what are the odds of that haha.

Tormod needs setup to be good which Varina provides, so she comes first.

@pokken
I took out Agadeem's Awakening a while ago and cannot for the life of me remember why I did that. Definitely an auto-include in the deck I agree. Gotta add that back in, probably for the basilica lol
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

Does anyone feel Snow lands are at all worth including?

Maybe for an Intuition pile? :) My copy is, sadly long gone and I'm not getting another. :(

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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

Basic snow land ? Never ! I love my foil old design basics swamps too much.

But to be serious, I think we don't care to play snow or non-snow basics.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

pzbw7z wrote:
2 years ago
Does anyone feel Snow lands are at all worth including?

Maybe for an Intuition pile? :) My copy is, sadly long gone and I'm not getting another. :(
Reya wrote:
2 years ago
Basic snow land ? Never ! I love my foil old design basics swamps too much.

But to be serious, I think we don't care to play snow or non-snow basics.

I play basic snow mix for Field of the Dead

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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

Good point. Forgot the interaction between Field and snow lands. *Immediately going to buy some snow basics lands*

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Yeah even in a mono color deck mixing snow and non snow gives you a solid Field engine.

I'm still probably off it until I can get more fetches in here myself, abd that purely for the extra land triggers. I'm confident I can get 7 different lands into play but without fetches and something like Intervention/Reward its not going to be worth it for me.
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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago

@pzbw7z

re: Unholy Grotto
Definitely worth getting, surprised it was not reprinted in the commander deck TBH. I have an extra one in my "deckbox.org" trade account. My name is "Plaganegra" on there too. Happy to send it your way!
Thanks for the offer! I'll check that out; I've never heard of it.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

@pokken

Thanks again for the notes.

I went.
-1 underground river
-1 orzhov basillica
+1 agadeem the undercrypt
+1 mana confluence

I think keeping the dimir aqueduct is correct for me, but two bounce lands probably is not correct.

Now I have two lands that count for "2 lands" in aqueduct and ancient tomb. If I count each at 1.5 lands then I feel good at 35 lands (feels like 36) lol.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
@pokken

Thanks again for the notes.

I went.
-1 underground river
-1 orzhov basillica
+1 agadeem the undercrypt
+1 mana confluence

I think keeping the dimir aqueduct is correct for me, but two bounce lands probably is not correct.

Now I have two lands that count for "2 lands" in aqueduct and ancient tomb. If I count each at 1.5 lands then I feel good at 35 lands (feels like 36) lol.
I think that's pretty near perfect. I definitely can see the utility of having a bounceland too - they fix a lot of broken hands at the cost of picking a turn to go slower. And it can be fairly flexible; you go slower on turn 2 or 3 before Varina, or turn 5 after Varina if you hit excess lands.

With my curve I don't think I can take turn 2 or 3 off, but I can sometimes take turn 1 off, hence Crypt of Agadeem and Field of the Dead I think being OK (and to a lesser extent Fabled Passage and Sunken Hollow). Getting multiples of those can be awkward though so definitely something to think about for me.

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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

Plaganegra where can I find your most recent list?

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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

Just had a game with Haakon and it was realy great. I took a Cyclonic Rift and was able to win the game the turn after. I casted Haakon from graveyard, casted Phyrexian Altar from hand, casted Corpse Knight from graveyard and fnished the table with Gravecrawler.

Very good first test with Haakon.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Reya wrote:
2 years ago
Just had a game with Haakon and it was realy great. I took a Cyclonic Rift and was able to win the game the turn after. I casted Haakon from graveyard, casted Phyrexian Altar from hand, casted Corpse Knight from graveyard and fnished the table with Gravecrawler.

Very good first test with Haakon.
Didn't occur to me that Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is a really difficult to remove zombie for Gravecrawler as well :) Very nice. So the intuition pile of Haakon, Stromgald Scourge Gravecrawler and Corpse Knight should be pretty common win - just got to have altar and it's GGs.

I think you can do Haakon, Stromgald Scourge Sevinne's Reclamation and Phyrexian Altar too if you have any 1-drop and are able to dunk Haakon off Varina (or another discard outlet.

I did find room for Changeling Outcast (cut Dreadmalkin I think it was, kinda similar effect mostly with the upside of an additional combo outlet with Haakon.

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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Reya wrote:
2 years ago
Just had a game with Haakon and it was realy great. I took a Cyclonic Rift and was able to win the game the turn after. I casted Haakon from graveyard, casted Phyrexian Altar from hand, casted Corpse Knight from graveyard and fnished the table with Gravecrawler.

Very good first test with Haakon.
Didn't occur to me that Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is a really difficult to remove zombie for Gravecrawler as well :) Very nice. So the intuition pile of Haakon, Stromgald Scourge Gravecrawler and Corpse Knight should be pretty common win - just got to have altar and it's GGs.

I think you can do Haakon, Stromgald Scourge Sevinne's Reclamation and Phyrexian Altar too if you have any 1-drop and are able to dunk Haakon off Varina (or another discard outlet.

I did find room for Changeling Outcast (cut Dreadmalkin I think it was, kinda similar effect mostly with the upside of an additional combo outlet with Haakon.
Isn't it bad if they choose to put Haakon in your hand with Intuition since you need to varina it into the yard then?

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Falkenbach wrote:
2 years ago
Isn't it bad if they choose to put Haakon in your hand with Intuition since you need to varina it into the yard then?
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Well sorta (I have multiple other discard outlets personally - Putrid Imp and Zombie Infestation). But presumably they also have to have killed varina previously for that to be a functional play. Otherwise you attack, get a free card and then go off.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

@Falkenbach
Here is my updated list:

Factoring in free spells as free, the average nonland cmc is 2.62
Decklist

Commander:

Approximate Total Cost:

Thoughts on things:

Considering Leyline of Anticipation with all of the zombies I can cast from the GY now with Haakon. Would be awesome to do everything at instant speed.

Cephalid Coliseum has always been a thought. Anyone running a draw doubler should probably run this.

Mirror Entity combos is cool with Haakon. The Haakon package could be expanded quite a bit with changelings if you wanted to. If you are running GY support it could be quite nice, although probably not necessary to run too many for it to be really effective in grindy games or combo wins

This is my maybeboard: Edit:

I talked myself into a couple changes
-1 diregraf captain
-1 mikaeus
-1 Oketra
+1 mirror entity
+1 zombie master (with wethered wayfarer in the deck it is much better)
+1 leyline of anticipation

After this my real avg nonland cmc went down to 2.57 accounting for free spells

Considering
Grave scrabbler
Call to the netherworld

In place of redundant zombies
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

What do you think of having a "Isamaru zombie" and a "Savannah Lion zombie" in the next few sets ? I'm pretty sure they will print them one day :) (giving the power creep of Ragavan....)

And maybe it will be good to play Lotus Petal if we get a few more cheaps zombies for one mana. Maybe we can already try Lotus Petal ?

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