Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Settle the Wreckage
I haven't but I've been tempted. Partly because with enough tokens we can use it on ourselves, still get a Varina trigger and call it a decent ramp spell too.

Offensively though I think it depends on your meta. Combat doesn't come into a lot of metas so it does come with the risk of stagnating in hand.
Yeah I think if your meta is not super chippy I could see it being poor, but I like your idea of settling 5 tokens and ramping 5 for 4 too.

My meta is *extremely* chippy. Everyone is always attacking and half the time I'm reminding them to cos I'm on Breena, the Demagogue
Ugh, parsing that card is so weird. But yeah in my experience people don't attack nearly enough.
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yeti1069
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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

I wouldn't ever play Devastation personally. WWWW is almost never an option, and giving one player back their best two permanents is sometimes more of a drawback than I'm willing to bank on.

Settle the Wreckage is too much mana to hold up.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

I think I might actually give Geralf, Visionary Stitcher a shot in my deck. Flying is just so valuable to have, and he does have a sacrifice outlet ability if you need to bin something in a pinch. I know he is a sub-optimal card though...

I mean the showcase art alone is just so cool. Dr Frankenstein all the way.

I think most of the games I have won without a combo, it was primarily because of Wonder TBH. Maybe more flying is better.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
I think I might actually give Geralf, Visionary Stitcher a shot in my deck. Flying is just so valuable to have, and he does have a sacrifice outlet ability if you need to bin something in a pinch. I know he is a sub-optimal card though...

I mean the showcase art alone is just so cool. Dr Frankenstein all the way.

I think most of the games I have won without a combo, it was primarily because of Wonder TBH. Maybe more flying is better.
I run Hordewing Skaab as my evasion creature, yes he's alot of mana but if you drop him on turn 5, its usually in my meta when i am no longer able to get through with creatures to keep my Varina engine rolling.

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Reya
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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

@pokken I saw you cut Mikaeus and Vengeful Dead. Don't you miss them ? I saw you run things like Cosmic Intervention so it could be a pseudo Mikaeus sometimes.

And for Vengeful Dead, it's one of the best bleeder but it costs 4 mana. The mana value made the cut ? Do you have enough with 4 bleeders "only" ?

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Reya wrote:
2 years ago
@pokken I saw you cut Mikaeus and Vengeful Dead. Don't you miss them ? I saw you run things like Cosmic Intervention so it could be a pseudo Mikaeus sometimes.

And for Vengeful Dead, it's one of the best bleeder but it costs 4 mana. The mana value made the cut ? Do you have enough with 4 bleeders "only" ?
My guess is mana efficiency. Mike probably needs some reliance on persist to really shine, or Plague Belcher effects. There are a few, things like Festering Mummy, but I don't know theres enough to really shine in a high power list. Hes great for me when he lands, but I don't know that he's a solid lock in the deck forever and always.

Vengeful seems like a cut more for efficiency than anything else. Once you're looping reanimation and Cosmic Intervention effects it seems like maybe paying 4 for the effect and just maybe having that extra benefit of triggering from your opponents zombies might just be a bit too far.

I could be wrong though.
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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

In a game today I managed to avoid dying to an enormous commander by getting Mikaeus and Fleshbag Marauder out along with a sac outlet. When it came back on opponent's turn and they went to combat, sacced Fleshbag and brought it back with undying.

Every time I consider cutting Fleshbag it makes some important plays.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Reya wrote:
2 years ago
@pokken I saw you cut Mikaeus and Vengeful Dead. Don't you miss them ? I saw you run things like Cosmic Intervention so it could be a pseudo Mikaeus sometimes.

And for Vengeful Dead, it's one of the best bleeder but it costs 4 mana. The mana value made the cut ? Do you have enough with 4 bleeders "only" ?
Yeah Mikaeus is just so expensive, I am trying to get much lower to the ground. He's great with Dread Return so I might bring that back, I dunno. I want to try the Haakon, Stromgald Scourge package because Haakon/Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight / Liliana's Standard Bearer are much more mana efficient combo pieces than Mike. They're not amazing, but easier for me to cast.

Vengeful Dead just costs so much. I cut every 4 drop except skaab (straight up combo) and amalgam (interaction).

both cuts could be wrong. Just trying some different things to get the mana curve right. I'm right about cutting grimgrin and noxious for counterspells at this point. But I need to see how the deck plays as is a bit more.

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
I want to try the Haakon, Stromgald Scourge package because Haakon/Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight / Liliana's Standard Bearer are much more mana efficient combo pieces than Mike. They're not amazing, but easier for me to cast.
Just when I think I have a list ready to play. . . I've loved Haakan for years but I never got a deck together. I guess I have to shoehorn him in somehow. ;)

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plaganegra
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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Reya wrote:
2 years ago
@pokken I saw you cut Mikaeus and Vengeful Dead. Don't you miss them ? I saw you run things like Cosmic Intervention so it could be a pseudo Mikaeus sometimes.

And for Vengeful Dead, it's one of the best bleeder but it costs 4 mana. The mana value made the cut ? Do you have enough with 4 bleeders "only" ?
Yeah Mikaeus is just so expensive, I am trying to get much lower to the ground. He's great with Dread Return so I might bring that back, I dunno. I want to try the Haakon, Stromgald Scourge package because Haakon/Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight / Liliana's Standard Bearer are much more mana efficient combo pieces than Mike. They're not amazing, but easier for me to cast.

Vengeful Dead just costs so much. I cut every 4 drop except skaab (straight up combo) and amalgam (interaction).

both cuts could be wrong. Just trying some different things to get the mana curve right. I'm right about cutting grimgrin and noxious for counterspells at this point. But I need to see how the deck plays as is a bit more.
Can you cast the spell halves of the adventure cards with Haakon? Why not include Murderous Rider in this package?

Edit - looks like you cannot, very confusing but nope - no adventures from haakon.

So why run this package at all? I am confused why it adds value beyond letting you cast a couple bodies from the GY. Is that enough to justify it if you aren't running a bunch of GY tutors? With Buried Alive, Intuition, and maybe more I can see it as some pseudo card advantage - but then I would be grabbing prized amalgam and gravecrawler and silversmote ghoul. Much better and free for the most part.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
Can you cast the spell halves of the adventure cards with Haakon? Why not include Murderous Rider in this package?

Edit - looks like you cannot, very confusing but nope - no adventures from haakon.

So why run this package at all? I am confused why it adds value beyond letting you cast a couple bodies from the GY. Is that enough to justify it if you aren't running a bunch of GY tutors? With Buried Alive, Intuition, and maybe more I can see it as some pseudo card advantage - but then I would be grabbing prized amalgam and gravecrawler and silversmote ghoul. Much better and free for the most part.
Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight + Haakon, Stromgald Scourge + Phyrexian Altar == infinite mana/zombie deaths. This combo is kinda unique in that it's exactly like Gravecrawler where if both start in the bin you can just go off from that (though it costs more to start).

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge + Liliana's Standard Bearer + any sac outlet means you can just 2B: draw = to things that die over and over again. With say, Ashnod's Altar it represents B: Draw N+1 where N is the number of creatures that have died so far.

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge gives you another cheap combo if Gravecrawler gets exiled, mainly. But potentially a ton of value. Just discarding him to Varina and then being able to cast him is pretty cool too.

edit: Should note that it's been pretty decent the two times I've had it so far, but I'm far from convinced it's optimal. Just an idea I'm trying.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
Can you cast the spell halves of the adventure cards with Haakon? Why not include Murderous Rider in this package?

Edit - looks like you cannot, very confusing but nope - no adventures from haakon.

So why run this package at all? I am confused why it adds value beyond letting you cast a couple bodies from the GY. Is that enough to justify it if you aren't running a bunch of GY tutors? With Buried Alive, Intuition, and maybe more I can see it as some pseudo card advantage - but then I would be grabbing prized amalgam and gravecrawler and silversmote ghoul. Much better and free for the most part.
Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight + Haakon, Stromgald Scourge + Phyrexian Altar == infinite mana/zombie deaths. This combo is kinda unique in that it's exactly like Gravecrawler where if both start in the bin you can just go off from that (though it costs more to start).

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge + Liliana's Standard Bearer + any sac outlet means you can just 2B: draw = to things that die over and over again. With say, Ashnod's Altar it represents B: Draw N+1 where N is the number of creatures that have died so far.

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge gives you another cheap combo if Gravecrawler gets exiled, mainly. But potentially a ton of value. Just discarding him to Varina and then being able to cast him is pretty cool too.

edit: Should note that it's been pretty decent the two times I've had it so far, but I'm far from convinced it's optimal. Just an idea I'm trying.
Well then, these are all very relevant things lol. I am glad I asked because I did not realize this was a build your own combo with Intuition or buried alive. If your goal is to combo I think you should run buried alive if you are using this package.

Basically Haakon + Foulmire = Gravecrawler stand in.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
MTG since 2003

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
Well then, these are all very relevant things lol. I am glad I asked because I did not realize this was a build your own combo with Intuition or buried alive. If your goal is to combo I think you should run buried alive if you are using this package.
Probably, just trying to keep the tutor count to a reasonable level - I'll add it and possibly Entomb if I'm not able to compete in my meta for sure.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

Has undead butler been overlooked? If stitcher's supplier can have a spot, this seems pretty good. Exile is lame, but very low cost to recur a creature and mill a few cards.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
MTG since 2003

yeti1069
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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Highlights from a game just now:
Headless Rider ensured that I had 7 zombies left after a boardwipe, which continued to put a lot of pressure on the table.
Zombie Apocalypse managed to wipe half of the werewolf player's board, and took out a few key creatures elsewhere.
I had a Cleansing Nova stuck in hand that I couldn't cast for most of the game due to never getting a 2nd white source. Notably, I had Exotic Orchard, but no one was playing white (or black, but I had Urborg).
Similarly, I had Wonder in hand, but no Islands in play, and was making plays to keep pressure on/survive some fire, so didn't get to recast Varina after the aforementioned board wipe.
Held onto Crucible of Worlds until I had a turn where it made sense playing it. Got back an Unholy Grotto I had chucked the previous turn, and then the Crucible ate removal immediately.
Got Sidisi, Undead Vizier back to hand with Unholy Grotto, and used it to get Living Death.
Was holding Overcharged Amalgam, with mana up for one turn to counter anything dangerous, but nothing really came up. Got milled for about 40 cards, and was hoping to topdeck a land to have mana to cast Living Death and protect it with the Amalgam, but I instead topdecked Swan Song.
Living Death met no resistance, and Gary drained the table for game.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I had a pretty great game tonight vs. cats, dragons, and omnath (4c) I think it was. I had a really slow hand, but played out my 3 drop into Varina with plenty of lands, Tombstone Stairwell and Kindred Discovery. I chucked Haakon, Stromgald Scourge to Varina first time, then Varina died (sent to bin) off of Terror of the Peaks. Then Cats player knocked Dragons to like 5, and I amalgmed the Dragons player's attempt to get a second Progenitor Mimic'd copy of Terror of the Peaks (amalgam is pretty damn good). Then I untapped, with 4 things in my bin played Weathered Wayfarer and Tombstone Stairwell, and was able to chump block cats when the dragon player scooped to me amalgaming him.

I wayfarered up a Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth for my Cabal Coffers, I curved into Kindred Discovery and was able to go absolutely bananas with stairwell. I drew about 20 cards over one turn cycle. I drew into Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight, Phyrexian Altar, which let me combo the table out with Corpse Knight.

Haakon combo feels very organic to stick, honestly. Getting him in the bin is super easy.

I still think my build needs another couple cheaper zombies, but I squeaked out a game I had no business winning against some otherwise pretty tuned decks (cat deck killed Dragons on turn 5 or so). Had he found either removal for stairwell or discovery or a trample enabler I was in a bad state, but Tombstone Stairwell really put in work.

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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

I had two interesting games yesterday aswell.
Was two times in a 3 pod game.
Against Niv-Mizzet, Parun and The Gitrog Monster. The Niv-Mizzet had a very spikey build with a ton of counterspells (like 3 free counterspells) and alot of interaction. At one point I was about to reanimate 5-7 zombies with Zombie Apocalypse, I think i had like Varina and two tokens out and the Gitrog opponent had Tireless Tracker. Niv Mizzet player cast/ or foretell cast Mystic Reflection so all my Zombies entered as Humans. It was annoying but also hilarious I gotta admit :D . I did have Cabal Coffers and Urborg out so I was able to cast Living Death wich got arcane denialed. But I had enough mana left to cast Balthor with Cavern of Souls and use his ability to get my black zombies on the field. Sadly Gitrog Combo'd out with a Gravestorm combo and it won him the game. (exiling our library's)

In the other game I made the mistake to have Kindred Discovery and Tombstone Stairwell out at the wrong moment which got me with very low library. Niv-Mizzet wheeled twice in his turn (removed my two mass reanimate spells) and I ended up again with no library and shamefully dying to Mill. :(
Makes me wonder if i should play more countermagic to protect my mass reanimations.

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Post by Kvothe » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
Has undead butler been overlooked? If stitcher's supplier can have a spot, this seems pretty good. Exile is lame, but very low cost to recur a creature and mill a few cards.
I'm thinking of trying it. Also Mire Triton has been in my list, but has not come up yet.

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Post by Nikerym » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago

Vengeful Dead just costs so much. I cut every 4 drop except skaab (straight up combo) and amalgam (interaction).
Just wanted to chime in that Vengeful Dead counts every zombie, not just ours (like most other bleeders do) making it extremely potent with Tombstone Stairwell.

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Post by Nikerym » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
I think I might actually give Geralf, Visionary Stitcher a shot in my deck. Flying is just so valuable to have, and he does have a sacrifice outlet ability if you need to bin something in a pinch. I know he is a sub-optimal card though...

I mean the showcase art alone is just so cool. Dr Frankenstein all the way.

I think most of the games I have won without a combo, it was primarily because of Wonder TBH. Maybe more flying is better.
I think the reason wonder is so good is the play pattern, since you attack and pitch mid combat, making it a blowout. Likewise I can see filth being good with urborg. Also, I dont like humans since they interact negatively with Zombie Apocalypse, and doesn't get the benefit of Mike's undying

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Nikerym wrote:
2 years ago
Just wanted to chime in that Vengeful Dead counts every zombie, not just ours (like most other bleeders do) making it extremely potent with Tombstone Stairwell.
This is definitely a powerful interaction, but my experience thus far is that the only time I ever want Vengeful Dead is when I reanimate it, so casting it into stairwell is not *super* likely. And my opponents do not seem to ever have very many dead creatures for stairwell.

In that last game with Kindred Discovery + Tombstone Stairwell there was one other person getting creatures other than me, and that's typical of the pace we play at. It would be pretty explosive if someone was playing a dedicated graveyard deck but I also probably wouldn't play stairwell, because I'd be giving them a zillion zombies with haste.

It's definitely a good interaction to be aware of though, you could kill pretty darn fast if there was a stairwell post sweeper.
Falkenbach wrote:
2 years ago
Makes me wonder if i should play more countermagic to protect my mass reanimations.
I definitely want more countermagic in my deck. I'm thinking it's going to be Fierce Guardianship, Pact of Negation, Swan Song as the package I add to defend my win attempts, based on how fast everything has been going lately.

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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

Do you have feedbacks on Wilhelt ? I still don't have the chance to play with it since it's not implemented yet on Xmage :/

I'm still wondering if the card worth it ?

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Reya wrote:
2 years ago
Do you have feedbacks on Wilhelt ? I still don't have the chance to play with it since it's not implemented yet on Xmage :/

I'm still wondering if the card worth it ?
I can't imagine a world in which I would pay 4 mana for that effect when I could play headless rider. It's a fine effect but 3 to 4 mana is a lot for including tokens and drawing a card at end step.

The fact that it never makes nondecayed zombies makes it even worse than rider in some ways.

That's just my take tho I'm down to like 2 4 drops.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

Nikerym wrote:
2 years ago
plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
I think I might actually give Geralf, Visionary Stitcher a shot in my deck. Flying is just so valuable to have, and he does have a sacrifice outlet ability if you need to bin something in a pinch. I know he is a sub-optimal card though...

I mean the showcase art alone is just so cool. Dr Frankenstein all the way.

I think most of the games I have won without a combo, it was primarily because of Wonder TBH. Maybe more flying is better.
I think the reason wonder is so good is the play pattern, since you attack and pitch mid combat, making it a blowout. Likewise I can see filth being good with urborg. Also, I dont like humans since they interact negatively with Zombie Apocalypse, and doesn't get the benefit of Mike's undying
Wonder is the best evasion in Varina IMO. Its hard to interact with and easy to get online! I would put it in every deck. Inwas thinking more in addition to.

Now that I am considering Haakon there is zero chance I have room for Geralf though lol
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
MTG since 2003

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Falkenbach wrote:
2 years ago
Makes me wonder if i should play more countermagic to protect my mass reanimations.
I definitely want more countermagic in my deck. I'm thinking it's going to be Fierce Guardianship, Pact of Negation, Swan Song as the package I add to defend my win attempts, based on how fast everything has been going lately.
I have been beating this drum for a while - this is absolutely the best way to ensure your game winning plan goes off without a hitch. ALSO allows you to stop random things you need to (like an opponents combo) without letting up on pressure or holding significant mana open.

Those three counters are the ones I run. Since I overhauled my manabase to add almost every fetchland I think I can support UU for additional counterspells very easily now which opens up more options if I want to add counterspells 4/5 to my list. Id probably add counterspell first or Delay.

Sadly I still havent drawn a weathered wayfarer to play yet but I imagine this helps a lot with mana fixing too.

Lots of development going on a round here and I love it!

Strongly considering adding that Haakon package. I can easily swap our the changeling 1-drop for foulmire knight and then find an underperforming 2-drop for Haakon. My 3-drop slot is kind of locked right now.

The fact you can also get back corpse knight and Midnight Rider off of Haakon makes this easier to include. Its almost an expensive mass reanimate if you have the right things in your GY lol. I've totally overlooked Haakon - wrote him off a while ago as mostly unplayable. Wrong!

Edit. Already removed the changeling for wayfarer
+1 foulmire +1 Haakon
-1 grimgrin -1 vengeful dead
(both I have cut before but always feel wrong cutting an aristocrat or sac outlet)

@pokken with the amount of things probably leaving your GY in a game you might want to try Tormod. Can flood the board fast.
Last edited by plaganegra 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
MTG since 2003

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