Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[toctheyounger]

@toctheyounger

I think Nykthos easily wins a colorless land slot in this deck! Is anyone on the fence about this inclusion? If anyone is I am curious as to why.

Yeah its been crazy good wherever I've used it before. Just solid enough to be really reliable. But I've only used it elsewhere in mono colored decks, and I myself was a little hesitant about its inclusion in a shard deck. And this is literally the first time since adding it its actually come up, so this was more assurance for myself than anything else. I guess I shouldbe known, but tricolor and all I wasn't sure it'd play out ok.

At this point its a lock for sure, over and above the classic Urborg/Coffers combo even.

[plaganegra]

@toctheyounger

I think Nykthos easily wins a colorless land slot in this deck! Is anyone on the fence about this inclusion? If anyone is I am curious as to why.

Yeah its been crazy good wherever I've used it before. Just solid enough to be really reliable. But I've only used it elsewhere in mono colored decks, and I myself was a little hesitant about its inclusion in a shard deck. And this is literally the first time since adding it its actually come up, so this was more assurance for myself than anything else. I guess I shouldbe known, but tricolor and all I wasn't sure it'd play out ok.

At this point its a lock for sure, over and above the classic Urborg/Coffers combo even.

Yeah most of the permanents in the deck have black mana symbols so even though its a shard deck nykthos is usually still pretty effective. I get it a lot and only once in a blue moon I am not happy to have it (in opening hand when I am otherwise missing a color.)

[yeti1069]

Had a good game where a few of the new cards showed up.

Champion of the Perished came down on 1. Grew to be a 4/4 and pushed some damage through. After a Living Death it came back as a 9/9 before lord buffs and helped close out the game with flying (more on that in a moment).

Tainted Adversary came down on 2, and was just a decent attacker with deathtouch. Could have been something else, but it wasn't disappointing.

The 2 mana +1/+0 lord made an appearance and his buff allowed me to kill 2 opponents in one turn instead of letting one live at low life.

Finally, the flying lord was the real game winner, providing evasion after the Living Death. Notably, Wonder wouldn't have worked here as I didn't have a sac outlet. No one survived for me to judge the damage trigger.

Added bonus, Rot Hulk brought back Varina and Corpse Knight on the Living Death since I couldn't get them into the yard first.

[toctheyounger]

Had a good game where a few of the new cards showed up.

Champion of the Perished came down on 1. Grew to be a 4/4 and pushed some damage through. After a Living Death it came back as a 9/9 before lord buffs and helped close out the game with flying (more on that in a moment).

Tainted Adversary came down on 2, and was just a decent attacker with deathtouch. Could have been something else, but it wasn't disappointing.

The 2 mana +1/+0 lord made an appearance and his buff allowed me to kill 2 opponents in one turn instead of letting one live at low life.

Finally, the flying lord was the real game winner, providing evasion after the Living Death. Notably, Wonder wouldn't have worked here as I didn't have a sac outlet. No one survived for me to judge the damage trigger.

Added bonus, Rot Hulk brought back Varina and Corpse Knight on the Living Death since I couldn't get them into the yard first.

I have to admit to really regretting not having acquired a Rot Hulk while it was reasonably priced. I'd have had to get it into the country, but still.

How did you find the filter on Hordewing Skaab? Varina lite is potentially a pretty solid plus.

[yeti1069]

Everyone died with the trigger on the stack, so I can't say. Will have to play some more games.

[yeti1069]

Woah! Rot Hulk is $35+!?

You could always get a Rotted Hulk instead.

[toctheyounger]

Woah! Rot Hulk is $35+!?

You could always get a Rotted Hulk instead.

Yeah it shot up with Innistrad precons. Honestly it probably needed a reprint anyway.

[WWolfe]

I keep going back and forth on Rot Hulk in my list. I take him out and then put him back in. I just can't decide. He does major work at times when you have 3 opponents, and is good when you have 2 most of the time, but it's a feel bad when you draw it and it's heads up.

[AetasObscura]

Hello together,

i started like 4 months ago to build a gisa&geralf deck. i bought the new dimir-zombie-precon and combined it with my existing one. in the end i got the feeling like described in the 1st post of this thread "Fun, but I found the deck didn't really want to go the same way I did."

so i started to think i need to upgrade to varina, and this is how i found this thread

i've read all of your post from the last 2 weeks but i had some hard times brewing something up and this is why i decided i wanted to ask you veteran guys for some help

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/NXV48rlt8kiizXMbEC3lFQ

this is the list i came up with, i included all the cards that i have cut in the section "considering"
is there anyone who would/could look over it and give me some feedback? that would be much appreciated!

[toctheyounger]

I keep going back and forth on Rot Hulk in my list. I take him out and then put him back in. I just can't decide. He does major work at times when you have 3 opponents, and is good when you have 2 most of the time, but it's a feel bad when you draw it and it's heads up.

This is the same reason I've gone back and forth on it myself. Its in a weird spot where the closer you are to hardcasting it the less potential value you might get. Not that we're aiming to do that, but being so dependent on the stage of the game has put me on the fence. All that said it seems to work well for others here - @yeti1069 has made good use of it by all accounts. Either way, for me at present its definitely a pass, that pricing is just beyond me so I'll continue to sit on the fence until it hits a price point I'm happier with.

Hello together,

i started like 4 months ago to build a gisa&geralf deck. i bought the new dimir-zombie-precon and combined it with my existing one. in the end i got the feeling like described in the 1st post of this thread "Fun, but I found the deck didn't really want to go the same way I did."

so i started to think i need to upgrade to varina, and this is how i found this thread

i've read all of your post from the last 2 weeks but i had some hard times brewing something up and this is why i decided i wanted to ask you veteran guys for some help

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/NXV48rlt8kiizXMbEC3lFQ

this is the list i came up with, i included all the cards that i have cut in the section "considering"
is there anyone who would/could look over it and give me some feedback? that would be much appreciated!

Welcome to Esper Zombies! Fresh faces are always welcome, and I'm sure you'll be able to find some feedback for your list here. I'll give you my take below, just bear in mind Varina isn't really solved and there's lots of scope for variety.

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

1 Liliana of the Dark Realms

1 Tormod, the Desecrator

1 Damnation

1 Day of Judgement

1 Annul

1 Monologue Tax

Approximate Total Cost:

Here's where I'd start with cuts myself. Lili and Tormod are purely because they're quite slow in what they do. Lili is probably a hard ask in a tricolor deck, and she doesn't defend herself. Nor is the massive mana from her ultimate of massive consequence to Varina, unless you're going to funnel it into something like Torment of Hailfire. I think if you want a walker here, the best choice would undoubtedly be Liliana, Dreadhorde General. Its static is amazing, it protects itself and the ultimate might as well read 'you win the game'. Tormod i just think with the way he's worded providing only one token sort of makes him small potatoes a little. You can just do better. In fact, most of the options I'd suggest for that are already in here, so I don't think you'd miss him to cut him.

Damnation and Judgment do the same thing, and the same thing as Damn, which being modal I think is better than either, here at least. The effect is good on a modal spell but I don't think its strong enough that you'd want redundancy in the effect. In replacing them I'm a massive advocate for Living Death. Whether or not you end up on a reanimator kick, it forces sacrifice which bypasses hexproof and indestructible. If it resolves it will clear the board entirely, and at that point any etb triggers you get from creatures returning are a cherry on top.

Annul is super cheap but seems a little conditional. It really wants to be Swan Song, or even Arcane Denial is totally fine. Monologue I truthfully have no experience with. I'm assuming its fine, but no Smothering Tithe. If you have a spare of that I'd say you won't regret it. Or Land Tax. They both give you resources, just in different ways. Both have performed well for me here, Land Tax so well that it would take something pretty amazing for it to be cut at this point. Those are both quite expensive though.

God-Eternal Oketra is on the fence for me. It can perform very well, but i found myself cutting it purely because my best games are where I avoid casting creatures and reanimate them en masse. Oketra does nothing for that so away it went. But if you're casting a lot of your creatures I can't fault you, its a good card. Psychic Corrosion seems a weird include to me. I guess it could be great but it does seem out of place unless you're going full mill. I'd probably lose it.

Archfiend of Ifnir and Bone Miser are both really stellar cards in a Varina deck innately, but I also think to really shine they need some support, and that comes best in the way of Windfall variants. You have like 4 available to you in our colors, and in addition they both go really well with Smothering Tithe should you choose to run that. I can't fault you for having them in the deck, but I thought it worth bringing g up that without dedicated discard above what Varina offers they won't hit their full potential. Especially the Miser, as any land you discard to Varina will generate mana that goes away post combat.

As for your maybe list, there's a lot there, so I think instead of telling you what not to run itd be better to go over the better options for you.

Firstly its definitely not sexy but the talismans are really worth having. Esper struggles for ramp, and land drops are almost exclusively one per turn cycle for us. It makes it hard to get above curve and these naturally drop easily and fix well. The life loss I can assure you will not notice whatsoever.

Hordewing Skaab has had promising reports so could be a good add, likewise with Empty the Laboratory. I like that the latter cannot miss, it'll always get you something.

I've toyed with Frantic Search here before and I think it could be great. That said I think you need some strong lands to make it really optimal. Something like Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Coffers gets you mana positive super quick and could lead to blowout turns.

Rooftop Storm seems a very good add too. Its costly which is why I don't run it myself, but it does offer a few combo lines with a good sac outlet and the right cards about, so it'd be worth it for sure.

The only cards I really want to dissuade you from including are Endless Ranks of the Dead, Dreadhorde Invasion and Maze of Ith. Ranks and Invasion are both very, very slow, and Ranks is super fragile. Not only does it take a long time to achieve anything its prone to removal and creature based board wipes. It looks great, but it does not play well at all. Invasion is OK, it just is no Bitterblossom. You need a sac outlet to keep getting tokens from it and there's a ton of quicker ways to generate better tokens. It ultimately ends up just being a wasted slot. And finally Maze just really suffers bad from not producing any mana for us. This land base does need to be quite good, and including this is a massive risk imo. If you want the effect I'd suggest Thaumatic Compass // Spires of Orazca.

Hope this helps - if there's anything I've glossed over that you specifically wanted to ask about fire away!

[yeti1069]

I keep going back and forth on Rot Hulk in my list. I take him out and then put him back in. I just can't decide. He does major work at times when you have 3 opponents, and is good when you have 2 most of the time, but it's a feel bad when you draw it and it's heads up.

Even 7 mana for a 5/5 Menace + the best/most relevant zombie in your yard is decent.

That said, I find that I'm rarely head to head with this deck. It tends to knock everyone out at once (or get a scoop), knock one player out and put the others on their heels for cleanup next turn, or gets its own ass handed to it because the danger is real.

I've definitely cast mass reanimates to bring back fewer than 4 creatures, and this is basically doing the same thing in those cases. Plus, it plays nicely with any spot reanimation in the deck, suck as Apprentice Necromancer. If I were running 0 spot reanimation, and really trying to bring the curve down, I'd cut it, but I've been pretty happy with it here. Plus, the beauty of Varina is that any cards in hand that aren't working for you get cycled anyway.

[toctheyounger]

I keep going back and forth on Rot Hulk in my list. I take him out and then put him back in. I just can't decide. He does major work at times when you have 3 opponents, and is good when you have 2 most of the time, but it's a feel bad when you draw it and it's heads up.

Even 7 mana for a 5/5 Menace + the best/most relevant zombie in your yard is decent.

That said, I find that I'm rarely head to head with this deck. It tends to knock everyone out at once (or get a scoop), knock one player out and put the others on their heels for cleanup next turn, or gets its own ass handed to it because the danger is real.

I've definitely cast mass reanimates to bring back fewer than 4 creatures, and this is basically doing the same thing in those cases. Plus, it plays nicely with any spot reanimation in the deck, suck as Apprentice Necromancer. If I were running 0 spot reanimation, and really trying to bring the curve down, I'd cut it, but I've been pretty happy with it here. Plus, the beauty of Varina is that any cards in hand that aren't working for you get cycled anyway.

All fair points. I've gone further with adding Animate Dead myself, so there's no reason it wouldn't be quite good with those sort of support spells around it.

To be fair this discussion from my end is mostly posturing as I can't afford it now anyway. Its a moot point here, but I guess at the least I can acknowledge that even 2 for 1 on a body with menace is pretty good.

[AetasObscura]

Welcome to Esper Zombies! Fresh faces are always welcome, and I'm sure you'll be able to find some feedback for your list here. I'll give you my take below, just bear in mind Varina isn't really solved and there's lots of scope for variety.

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

1 Liliana of the Dark Realms

1 Tormod, the Desecrator

1 Damnation

1 Day of Judgement

1 Annul

1 Monologue Tax

Approximate Total Cost:

Here's where I'd start with cuts myself. Lili and Tormod are purely because they're quite slow in what they do. Lili is probably a hard ask in a tricolor deck, and she doesn't defend herself. Nor is the massive mana from her ultimate of massive consequence to Varina, unless you're going to funnel it into something like Torment of Hailfire. I think if you want a walker here, the best choice would undoubtedly be Liliana, Dreadhorde General. Its static is amazing, it protects itself and the ultimate might as well read 'you win the game'. Tormod i just think with the way he's worded providing only one token sort of makes him small potatoes a little. You can just do better. In fact, most of the options I'd suggest for that are already in here, so I don't think you'd miss him to cut him.

Damnation and Judgment do the same thing, and the same thing as Damn, which being modal I think is better than either, here at least. The effect is good on a modal spell but I don't think its strong enough that you'd want redundancy in the effect. In replacing them I'm a massive advocate for Living Death. Whether or not you end up on a reanimator kick, it forces sacrifice which bypasses hexproof and indestructible. If it resolves it will clear the board entirely, and at that point any etb triggers you get from creatures returning are a cherry on top.

Annul is super cheap but seems a little conditional. It really wants to be Swan Song, or even Arcane Denial is totally fine. Monologue I truthfully have no experience with. I'm assuming its fine, but no Smothering Tithe. If you have a spare of that I'd say you won't regret it. Or Land Tax. They both give you resources, just in different ways. Both have performed well for me here, Land Tax so well that it would take something pretty amazing for it to be cut at this point. Those are both quite expensive though.

God-Eternal Oketra is on the fence for me. It can perform very well, but i found myself cutting it purely because my best games are where I avoid casting creatures and reanimate them en masse. Oketra does nothing for that so away it went. But if you're casting a lot of your creatures I can't fault you, its a good card. Psychic Corrosion seems a weird include to me. I guess it could be great but it does seem out of place unless you're going full mill. I'd probably lose it.

Archfiend of Ifnir and Bone Miser are both really stellar cards in a Varina deck innately, but I also think to really shine they need some support, and that comes best in the way of Windfall variants. You have like 4 available to you in our colors, and in addition they both go really well with Smothering Tithe should you choose to run that. I can't fault you for having them in the deck, but I thought it worth bringing g up that without dedicated discard above what Varina offers they won't hit their full potential. Especially the Miser, as any land you discard to Varina will generate mana that goes away post combat.

As for your maybe list, there's a lot there, so I think instead of telling you what not to run itd be better to go over the better options for you.

Firstly its definitely not sexy but the talismans are really worth having. Esper struggles for ramp, and land drops are almost exclusively one per turn cycle for us. It makes it hard to get above curve and these naturally drop easily and fix well. The life loss I can assure you will not notice whatsoever.

Hordewing Skaab has had promising reports so could be a good add, likewise with Empty the Laboratory. I like that the latter cannot miss, it'll always get you something.

I've toyed with Frantic Search here before and I think it could be great. That said I think you need some strong lands to make it really optimal. Something like Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Coffers gets you mana positive super quick and could lead to blowout turns.

Rooftop Storm seems a very good add too. Its costly which is why I don't run it myself, but it does offer a few combo lines with a good sac outlet and the right cards about, so it'd be worth it for sure.

The only cards I really want to dissuade you from including are Endless Ranks of the Dead, Dreadhorde Invasion and Maze of Ith. Ranks and Invasion are both very, very slow, and Ranks is super fragile. Not only does it take a long time to achieve anything its prone to removal and creature based board wipes. It looks great, but it does not play well at all. Invasion is OK, it just is no Bitterblossom. You need a sac outlet to keep getting tokens from it and there's a ton of quicker ways to generate better tokens. It ultimately ends up just being a wasted slot. And finally Maze just really suffers bad from not producing any mana for us. This land base does need to be quite good, and including this is a massive risk imo. If you want the effect I'd suggest Thaumatic Compass // Spires of Orazca.

Hope this helps - if there's anything I've glossed over that you specifically wanted to ask about fire away!

Thank you very much for your time and this feedback!
You're right with Bone Miser, i'd lose the mana, but i'd still get the tokens and the card draw. Here maybe more general question: what do you usually discard with varina? i mean i think i wouldn't discard land cards anyway, or am i seeing this wrong? And what are the cards that you exile with varina without hesitation?

Living Death will be added

i took Psychic Corrosion in for resource denial to my opponents. Together with Alhammarret's Archive the'd lose a good bunch of cards but yes, this is not the main target so this spot could be used better

I have Swan Song & Smothering Tithe, but they're both in different decks. I usually don't use the same card multiple times in my active decks because I don't like swapping cards in between the games. But maybe it'd be better if I'd start doing so

Your reply definitely helped a lot, I will continue to work on the deck untill i get my first game in with in

[yeti1069]

I usually use Bone Miser's mana to activate Varina and make tokens.

I generally only keep 1 land in hand if I'm low on cards--my priority is making plays, rather than land drops past turn 5 or so. Typically, I'm ditching more expensive stuff, especially zombies early, and exclusively zombies if I draw into a mass reanimate that I can take advantage of. Otherwise, identifying the one or two best spells in my hand and pitching everything else. Oh, and generally anything that's redundant to what I have on the board, or not useful at the time. It's not ideal, but when the deck gets low on cards in hand it can be difficult to hang onto multiple strong cards at a time.

I wouldn't run Annul. There are fewer enchantments and artifacts that NEED to be countered than there are instants or sorcery spells, even if there are a few of the former that can really ruin your day.

[toctheyounger]

Thank you very much for your time and this feedback!
You're right with Bone Miser, i'd lose the mana, but i'd still get the tokens and the card draw. Here maybe more general question: what do you usually discard with varina? i mean i think i wouldn't discard land cards anyway, or am i seeing this wrong? And what are the cards that you exile with varina without hesitation?

Basically what yeti said. I'm usually pretty keen to discard land over anything else, considering I have very few ways to get more than one into play per turn. I'll keep one for the next turns drop but I know I'm going to be attacking again anyway so I'm not too worried. Other than that, as I use mass reanimation I'm usually quite happy to drop above curve zombies or even zombies that ETB well. And finally, redundant spells. If I already have a wipe in hand I won't keep a second, and so on. This is definitely the last option, but regardless I'm happy to do it to craft an optimal hand.

As for exile, I use it relatively rarely, but when I do its almost certainly lands. I have one way of getting any of them back anyway so I'm happy to use them for board presence. And realistically this isn't the sort of deck that needs access to all 36 or 37 lands every game, so having bodies in play is much preferable to being precious about lands in the yard.

[plaganegra]

I guess Reconnaissance is a whole lot better than I thought:

[pokken]

Ah yes, one of the very small handful of benefits white gets from the weird interactions with commander rules and modern rules changes, along with Serra Ascendant.

Let's whine about that.

[plaganegra]

Ah yes, one of the very small handful of benefits white gets from the weird interactions with commander rules and modern rules changes, along with Serra Ascendant.

Let's whine about that.

A couple months ago I got pretty much single-handedly killed by one of those. It put me so far behind early in the game I became an easy target to eliminate after the controller decided to hit only me with it because my zombie deck overperformed at our previous game night lol.

So yeah I would like to whine about it rofl

[toctheyounger]

Oh my God Mitch. Hes such a little crybaby some times. I'm surprised he's not still on the Golos soapbox anymore. Its a massive part of why I don't watch him regularly (although I will say the first game they filmed was good).

I was aware of all of these*. In fact recon has been in Game Knights episodes doing exactly what he describes here, so ... idk. I still don't think its good enough to earn a place but it's still an option.

* I only just learned about Fiend Hunter, along with our good friend Tidehollow Sculler. Now that I know, the Sculler is definitely coming in here, and Bruna will likely get a Hunter. I run Altar of Dementia and Sun Titan anyway there so it'll be nice to have a non-combat win condition if needed.

[Falkenbach]

Balthor the Defiled has been amazing for me. He won me two games already. In one game i mass reanimated my board with Patriarch's Bidding and had reanimated Carrion Feeder 4-5 other zombies balthor and corpse knight 3 extra mana made me able to loop my zombie etbs one more time for the win.
Another game i had no cards in hand except for a land. Sevinne's Reclamation was in my graveyard so i flashed it back getting me a land and Necromancy which in turn brought Balthor the Defiled back and had just enough mana to activate his ability to get my yard of 7-8 zombies back to get the win.
Yes balthor can only be used once but so are all the sorcery mass reanimation spells. It being on a creature and running some single target reanimation really makes it a powerhouse card for me atleast.

[pokken]

but so are all the sorcery mass reanimation spells

Unless you play an Archaeomancer effect, which I would strongly suggest in a non-fully-tribal deck Eventually we'll get a zombo that archaeomances.

[toctheyounger]

but so are all the sorcery mass reanimation spells

Unless you play an Archaeomancer effect, which I would strongly suggest in a non-fully-tribal deck Eventually we'll get a zombo that archaeomances.

I've wanted one for a while now. One day....

Hey I see you but your extremely low cmc Varina together. Have you had any gameplay yet?

[pokken]

Hey I see you but your extremely low cmc Varina together. Have you had any gameplay yet?

Playin Saturday I'll be sure to post some reports. I am sure I missed some critical things. It definitely is light on interaction

[plaganegra]

Hey I see you but your extremely low cmc Varina together. Have you had any gameplay yet?

Playin Saturday I'll be sure to post some reports. I am sure I missed some critical things. It definitely is light on interaction

How did it go?

[pokken]

Hey I see you but your extremely low cmc Varina together. Have you had any gameplay yet?

Playin Saturday I'll be sure to post some reports. I am sure I missed some critical things. It definitely is light on interaction

How did it go?

I got one game in. There's a light report in my thread but it played basically like I expected. Reliable curve out, skin of the teeth card advantage and winning with mass reanimation.

My sequencing was a little sloppy and I could have closed the game faster and likely want one or two more sources of card advantage.

Playing zombies on turns 1,2 and 3 and then looting 3 with varina on turn 4 was very good.

I am fairly sure more 1 drop zombies are in my future as they release good ones. If I could run like 10 copies of champion of the perished I would. It was an 8/8 and came back as a 12/12 after the zombie apocalypse and soaked up two targeted removal spells that could have been at varina.