Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

And lastly just to inundate y'all, here's my latest...like...3 rounds of updates amalgamated. It took a little while to actually collate these because I was trialling pieces that went in and out between updates, so it took a little while to actually figure out what the changes looked like. Here's where my build stands at present:


Again, most of this we've talked about. This sort of represent the major changes to ramp that has been discussed here and in Wizard's thread, with Tax and Map coming in. It also represents the penultimate removal of wheel as discard moving out of the deck. I still have Zombie Infestation in there, but it's probably not long for the build. I was stoked to get a copy of Deluge, it's pretty much a no-brainer really. The rocks leaving is fine by me too, the artifacts and enchantments that replace them thin my deck for advantage on board and in hand. so I see that as a win.

The draw stuff in Epiphany and Fact I've yet to trial to any major extent, but I fully intend to blame Wizard and Pokken if they don't work. I'm sure they'll work out, all reports seem positive. It does seem a little weird losing Return to Dust and True Love's Kiss, but they're a bit too pricey for this deck, so I think I just need to get used to using wipes more judiciously, and saving my targeted removal for crucial moments.

The snow lands just didn't work. It was always a long shot, nothing major lost there.

I've got a few more bits coming; Sevinne's Reclamation is likely to replace Dance of the Manse, and I'm thinking about squeezing Rot Hulk in here too. The CMC worries me, so I'm not sure it's a lock, but I'm willing to give it a try.
Last edited by toctheyounger 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Eburon
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Post by Eburon » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
Eburon wrote:
2 years ago
I did recently add Plumb the Forbidden (after reading your thread). All of the 5 drops mentioned have some application, but I feel they are not quite where we want to be. Bontu was still left as I am slowly transitioning.
Plumb has been pretty good for me. Just watch out for that life loss. I would say though that Grimgrin has been an absolute allstar in my deck. As mentioned, 5 mana is tough but of those you mentioned, Grimgrin would be the last I would cut. And, in fact, so far is the last to remain :) (though I never did run The Scarab God).
I am leaning towards testing Grimgrim. I recently was able to pick up a dirt cheap copy of The Scarab God to test, but it is still on it's way to me. Theoretically, we get the see a few cards for card selection from his passive effect while his active effect could be more mana efficient than Havengul Lich while also getting rid of creatures for a future mass recursion effect.

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Eburon wrote:
2 years ago
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
Eburon wrote:
2 years ago
I did recently add Plumb the Forbidden (after reading your thread). All of the 5 drops mentioned have some application, but I feel they are not quite where we want to be. Bontu was still left as I am slowly transitioning.
Plumb has been pretty good for me. Just watch out for that life loss. I would say though that Grimgrin has been an absolute allstar in my deck. As mentioned, 5 mana is tough but of those you mentioned, Grimgrin would be the last I would cut. And, in fact, so far is the last to remain :) (though I never did run The Scarab God).
I am leaning towards testing Grimgrim. I recently was able to pick up a dirt cheap copy of The Scarab God to test, but it is still on it's way to me. Theoretically, we get the see a few cards for card selection from his passive effect while his active effect could be more mana efficient than Havengul Lich while also getting rid of creatures for a future mass recursion effect.
From experience, it's a really varied experience with Scarab. Some metas will leave him alone, but if you play against guys with any sort of good threat assessment he won't last in play until your next turn, sadly. I found him to be more removal bait than anything useful.
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Post by Eburon » 2 years ago

OK, below is my deck for reference (I already added Master of Death ). Would love all of your thoughts. PS: Just added Painful Truths following the suggestion by @WizardMN
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Commander

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Eburon
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Post by Eburon » 2 years ago

Well, I just won a Master of Death in a stream giveaway. Pretty excited to test it.

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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

Painful Truths vs Read the Bones. I noticed a few of you are trying out Painful Truths, but seems like Read the Bones is more "bird in the hand" and has a greater benefit on average. Best case with Painful Truths you've dug three deep with the three cards you draw, but you have less flexibility to get there with three colors needed. Best case with Read the Bone: dig four deep, draw 2, and lose 2. Worst case with Painful: draw 1, lose 1. Worst case with Read the Bones, draw two (cards that you really want too) and lose 2. I'd say my example of Read the Bones worst case may actually be its best case. Oh, and they're both sorceries. Thoughts?

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

All things considered I think this deck usually wants more cards but really depends most on whether your Mana base easily supports paying uwb.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I agree with Pokken here. It does come down to your mana base and I know I have no problem getting WUB in this deck so I went with Truths. Overall, the card quantity is better earlier on thanks to wanting cards for Varina. I think later in the game, Read the Bones has the upper hand when trying to dig for something but there is very little in the early game, beyond lands, that I am actively digging for and this is really intended to be more of an early game play. Even later when attacking with Varina getting three cards over two can help keep the "right" cards in hand after her trigger.

I don't think Read the Bones is wrong by any means and there are pros and cons to both, but this is why I feel Truths is the right card for my list.

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Post by Eburon » 2 years ago

Personally, I lean towards Painful Thruths as well. If you are firing this of for 1, you probably shouldn't have kept that hand in a 3-color deck. Read the Bones is an ok card, but at that point I would rather run Night's Whisper instead

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Perhaps we could insert Notion Rain into the mix too. Surveil probably trumps scry in this deck I'd say.
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Post by xStrafeWraithx » 2 years ago

Hello everyone, I've been a on and off again lurker on here since the beginning and just wanted to say thank you all for the valuable input for building my favorite tribe over the years. Usually I'm fairly content with just lurking, however, I've recently run into a dilemma. My meta has changed into more of the high power/ cEDH tier and my Varina deck can simply no longer compete. Now I have other decks at this power level that I use, however, I really enjoy playing Varina zombies and while I understand it's not elves or goblins I was just wondering if anyone here has a very powerful build of Varina that could put up more of a fight yet still retain some of the zombie fun I've come to love. If any of you could help with this matter it would be greatly appreciated!

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

The obvious cedh shell for varina is esper notion thief with thassas oracle. Just build opus thief with some varina support instead of red cards.

Varina can create a lot of pressure kind of similar to a bad tymna / kraum.

Its going to be worse than an actual cedh deck but it can be pretty good

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
The obvious cedh shell for varina is esper notion thief with thassas oracle. Just build opus thief with some varina support instead of red cards.

Varina can create a lot of pressure kind of similar to a bad tymna / kraum.

Its going to be worse than an actual cedh deck but it can be pretty good
Seems pretty accurate. I'd drop the curve as low as possible similar to Edgar Markov with wheels and thief, oracle and lab man being your win cons. Sounds boring tbh, but I've never liked lab man et al.

There's no reason Tymna shouldn't be in the build, she's a very efficient draw engine with a low curve. If I had a copy myself I'd potentially considering bending the tribe to squeeze her in to my build.
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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

Thanks for the Notion Rain suggestion. I didn't actually know it existed. It would definitely work better for Varina than Read the Bones.

I also get the point about more draw wanted for Varina (i.e. Painful Truths as opposed to Read the Bones or maybe Notion Rain). Three different colored mana isn't always available for Varina, but if it's late enough in the game it generally should be.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
Thanks for the Notion Rain suggestion. I didn't actually know it existed. It would definitely work better for Varina than Read the Bones.

I also get the point about more draw wanted for Varina (i.e. Painful Truths as opposed to Read the Bones or maybe Notion Rain). Three different colored mana isn't always available for Varina, but if it's late enough in the game it generally should be.
I mean Truths seems fine and pretty reliable. I think the ceiling for Rain is a little higher purely because there's the potential for you to see 4 cards and take the best of them, as well as scope for putting quality in the bin. It seems like it could be pretty versatile.
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Post by xStrafeWraithx » 2 years ago

Awesome, thank you both for the suggestions! I'll definitely use a cEDH esper shell and add some lower curve zombies to it, I imagine it'll be a midrange deck that digs for combo pieces off of Varina's triggers. And yeah those combos are rather boring but sadly their the most efficient we've got lol. I'll probably have to work for my wins and most likely won't get there always but hey at least I'll be using my favorite tribe and having fun. I can only hope the future sets bring more playable zombies!

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

xStrafeWraithx wrote:
2 years ago
Awesome, thank you both for the suggestions! I'll definitely use a cEDH esper shell and add some lower curve zombies to it, I imagine it'll be a midrange deck that digs for combo pieces off of Varina's triggers. And yeah those combos are rather boring but sadly their the most efficient we've got lol. I'll probably have to work for my wins and most likely won't get there always but hey at least I'll be using my favorite tribe and having fun. I can only hope the future sets bring more playable zombies!
Kudos for giving it a go at the higher level anyway, hopefully it goes well for you. Feel free to report back once you've got some game play in, it'd be interesting to see how you get on.

As an aside, just checking MH2 singles at the LGS; anyone wanting a Patriarch's Bidding for their build, it's like...1/3rd of the price now, great time to grab a copy.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
anyone wanting a Patriarch's Bidding for their build, it's like...1/3rd of the price now, great time to grab a copy.
on its way to the bulk bin, I'd hold out until the set is fully released on this one.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
anyone wanting a Patriarch's Bidding for their build, it's like...1/3rd of the price now, great time to grab a copy.
on its way to the bulk bin, I'd hold out until the set is fully released on this one.
I'm holding off on everything personally. Most of the wants from the set have dropped but are still relatively pricey atm. Chances are they'll drop a little again on release date and then again a couple weeks later once the dust settles and formats figure out what the new hot pieces are.

It bums me out a little, knowing how much I paid for my Bidding, but whatever. I prefer the original art anyway.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
I'm holding off on everything personally. Most of the wants from the set have dropped but are still relatively pricey atm. Chances are they'll drop a little again on release date and then again a couple weeks later once the dust settles and formats figure out what the new hot pieces are.

It bums me out a little, knowing how much I paid for my Bidding, but whatever. I prefer the original art anyway.
Yeah that is usually right. Masters sets stuff often bounces fast but there should be no supply constraints here so it's good to wait as long as you can.

I wouldn't feel bad about stuff like that though, you played with yours for quite a while I'm sure :) That's the best part about magic cards, you extract your enjoyment *and* you can sell them for most of your money back (or in my case a 2500% profit:P)

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
I'm holding off on everything personally. Most of the wants from the set have dropped but are still relatively pricey atm. Chances are they'll drop a little again on release date and then again a couple weeks later once the dust settles and formats figure out what the new hot pieces are.

It bums me out a little, knowing how much I paid for my Bidding, but whatever. I prefer the original art anyway.
Yeah that is usually right. Masters sets stuff often bounces fast but there should be no supply constraints here so it's good to wait as long as you can.

I wouldn't feel bad about stuff like that though, you played with yours for quite a while I'm sure :) That's the best part about magic cards, you extract your enjoyment *and* you can sell them for most of your money back (or in my case a 2500% profit:P)
Ha! Yeah I don't feel that bad, it does well here. And tbh the last year or so I've done exceptionally well with trades. I've managed to add really quality stuff to most of my staple decks through trades of stuff I might've pulled from sealed product or bought for a buck way back when. Kinda just caught the tide of rising prices and rode it as best I could.

But yeah, I got a bit of money set aside from my bday, I should be able to pick up most of what I need and want from MH2. Fetches are a maybe, depending on how far they drop, everything else should be easy.
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Well, one more update to make, and it's a doozy - one I didn't think I'd be able to manage anyway:


Obviously, very happy with this upgrade; a friend had one in a deck that he wasn't playing and was kind enough to part with it as he'd picked it up a few years back for much less than the current asking price. I see no reason at all it shouldn't perform very well.

Talisman is a relatively easy cut; The rocks are fine, but with a transition to a more land-based ramp in the latest additions it's probably not as required and I'm fine with that. The only rocks that are staying currently are Sol Ring which is mana positive immediately, and Arcane Signet which in unconditional colour fixing.

I was tossing up losing Zombie Infestation for Study, and truth be told that might still happen, but I do want to give it a shot with Rhystic Study, Land Tax, Archaeomancer's Map as well as the draw doubling pieces already in situ. The way I figure it if my hand stays overfull being able to discard chaff down to 7 to create a zombie is pretty good.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
I was tossing up losing Zombie Infestation for Study, and truth be told that might still happen, but I do want to give it a shot with Rhystic Study, Land Tax, Archaeomancer's Map as well as the draw doubling pieces already in situ. The way I figure it if my hand stays overfull being able to discard chaff down to 7 to create a zombie is pretty good.
Congrats on the Study :)

I had the same thoughts about Infestation. I am pretty sure it ends up being cut eventually, but I too didn't want to do it when adding in cards that (theoretically) make it function better. I am curious on your experience with Study (it has been pretty good for me) and whether this changes your thoughts on Infestation.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
I was tossing up losing Zombie Infestation for Study, and truth be told that might still happen, but I do want to give it a shot with Rhystic Study, Land Tax, Archaeomancer's Map as well as the draw doubling pieces already in situ. The way I figure it if my hand stays overfull being able to discard chaff down to 7 to create a zombie is pretty good.
Congrats on the Study :)

I had the same thoughts about Infestation. I am pretty sure it ends up being cut eventually, but I too didn't want to do it when adding in cards that (theoretically) make it function better. I am curious on your experience with Study (it has been pretty good for me) and whether this changes your thoughts on Infestation.
Yeah, I was over the moon to pick one up, it was a very generous offer.

Zombie Infestation probably doesn't stay in the list much longer in all fairness, but at the same time there's very few options for creating tokens for as cheap as 1b. It is just a shame that the discard is as rough as it is, but sometimes it works out. I think it works best with the cards above which can continually refill your hand, but it'll shred your hand really quickly too, so it might just be too much. And with no synergy for discard anymore it just becomes a much tougher option to keep.
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Well, I got a fair amount of gameplay in yesterday, and it's pretty worth going over some takeaways.

I got Rhystic Study into play in 3/4 games played and it performed admirably every time. Even missing triggers due to RL stuff going on I almost always ended up with hand size >7 with ease. The last game I played I had Teferi's Ageless Insight in play at the same time, and honestly, I forgot that they even interacted, but had I made that (admittedly very small) mental leap, I'd have drawn the lion's share of my deck and ended the game with a decisive win very easily.

The gameplay itself wasn't really worth going over, 3/4 games ended with a combo win (one of them T3 from a Godo, Bandit Warlord player - and honestly I can't see any other use to playing that guy, it was very underwhelming). The 4th I was very much in the driver's seat and had to pull out for running out of time. Suffice it to say, it was a good add.

In terms of other cards coming up, Sword of the Animist continues to perform well. It isn't the quickest, but it's reliable and hitting it on curve does good things. Plumb the Forbidden I found to be a little conditional, as I'm really reluctant to sacrifice board state without an aristocrat in play (although with optimal draw in play it's an easy pitch).

I'd really have liked to try out Zombie Infestation with Rhystic Study in play but couldn't quite get them together. However, if the level of draw I've been having is as reliable as it seems with the few games I've gotten in thus far it might well be worth holding on to. I guess at this point it's the only way I have of generating bodies without spending mana to get them, so if there's another reliable token producer I'm all ears! I've mentioned Noosegraf Mob in the past, and the only thing that deters me from adding it in again is it's CMC. Still, it's really great with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and with Mirrorweave, so it might just be worth it. The nice thing about it is that because it produces tokens when opponents play spells your tokens will invariably have haste, as predominantly that's outside of your turn.
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