Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[yeti1069]

On the one hand it's a 2 mana zombie with a decent effect, but on the other, this deck is more go wide than go tall, and if you have open mana you can already sink it into Varina. That said, it does grant a use for having only 1 mana open when swinging. I do t think I would play it.

[Nimbaway]

The 1/3 body isn't that bad on Lazotep Minister, making it an okay 2-drop blocker... the ability I'm just less sure of. The deck often finds itself needing more mana instead of having to spare, not to mention our own discard happens usually in our own combat step so its not like you can sink any spare open mana into it during an opponents turn. Not to mention amass doesn't let you go wide, which is also a downside.

Master of Death looks more interesting, but only able to bring it back during your upkeep might be limiting it. But will be considering it for a test run more so than the Minister.

[WizardMN]

Regarding Lazotep Minister:

I agree with everyone else. It seems fine that when I discard with Varina that I can pump mana into this to Amass a bunch of times. But going tall just isn't what the deck wants to do. If it gave us a normal 2/2 token I think I would try it out just to throw some extra mana at it since each token can trigger other things. But a single token getting bigger just isn't as appealing or useful. And, as mentioned, we don't often have a ton of mana to throw at it so all around it is just less useful.

[BeneTleilax]

I think even one token is already enough to make it worthwhile.

[toctheyounger]

Got some gameplay in today. Game against Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale, Will Kenrith and Rowan Kenrith and Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith and Silas Renn, Seeker Adept. Fairly casual game, nice relaxed vibe.

I had a pretty nice start with 3 lands covering wb, Cryptbreaker, Zombie Master and some wipes in my starting hand. I always enjoy a T1 Cryptbreaker so I smashed that right away, next turn around the table hit Carrion Feeder and turn 3 started drawing to refuel.

I ended up with a slow Varina, Lich Queen due to lack of islands, but drawing a little deeper got me turn 5 with Path of Ancestry. I don't usually dislike the ETB tapped ability, but this time it was a bit of a stumbling block.

The game at this point was pretty durdly, both the Kenriths and the partners were kinda just doing their own thing, but out of nowhere Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale drops a Mana Crypt (his first land was Snowfield Sinkhole, so to say I was surprised to see it is an understatement), lands his commander, equips it with Valkyrie's Sword and swings at me for 7. He has Sylvia Brightspear and Khorvath Brightflame in play, so nothing I can do about it.

My turn swings around and I had Cyclonic Rift in hand, as well as Austere Command and a land. I could've and should've wiped, but the way I figured it while it would've kept me alive it would've been pretty cruel to the partners and Kenriths, both of whom were pretty behind on land drops and board state. So I sacrificed a Putrid Goblin to Phyrexian Tower, cast Sword of the Animist equipped it to Varina, cast Lord of the Accursed, swung in with inflated numbers, scuplted hand and hit a land drop. I drew into Winds of Abandon, Gravecrawler and a Command Tower which was better than the Sunken Ruins in hand.

Abrupt end for me next turn when Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale drops Fireshrieker and pops me for the remaining 14. Ultimately I think it was probably my fault, I could have rifted or nuked the board (Command for artifacts and CMC >3 would've done for the equipments and Syr Gwyn, Hero of Ashvale), but again I feel like the vibe wasn't too cutthroat, so I kinda took a one-two KO for the sake of the vibe, which was....not my best threat assessment ever. No major regrets, it was a very casual game, and it is nice to have some game play in.

Pretty happy with the tempo of the deck in playing anyway, and I think outside of evasion screwing me out of a win I had a pretty good standing to just dig for reanimation and pop the board. I filtered Gray Merchant of Asphodel to the yard early, just didn't have a reanimation spell to make it work. I've been proxying some of the tech we've been discussing here and there too in Land Tax, Archaeomancer's Map and Rhystic Study as well as Epiphany at the Drownyard and Mission Briefing, with most of these due to actually arrive in deck shortly. The Map has proved pretty decent so far, as has Tax. Study I've not seen turn up, but I can only assume it's very good. The one big problem I've had is hand size dropping too low to effectively filter, so it would be welcome picking up a copy.

As for more spoilers, I guess the season of MH2 isn't over yet, although we're what...2/3rds of the way through now? I'm not holding out huge hopes for anything stellar. Master of Death warrants trialling, and I'm personally of the opinion that Lazotep Minister is fine but not amazing. I think amass is a relatively weak mechanic, but what really kills it is having to pay 1 for the opportunity. If it cost nothing I'd be interested in giving it a go.

Unworthy Gravedigger...I'm on the fence. For 1 less I'd be very keen, but it does seem like that'd be too strong for quicker formats. It's cheaper than Corpse Connoisseur, which I've run before (makes for a good Gravecrawler fetch), and it fetches any card where the Connoisseur only fetches creatures. I guess it really just depends whether there's room in my curve for it, and I think I want a slightly higher density of mass reanimation before I add something that Entombs. Twilight's Call, Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt and Rot Hulk are all options, and two of them are reasonably priced. I think it's quite a strong effect, so it probably is worth trialling.

[Nimbaway]

Master of Death certainly holds some interest to me, but I agree that it is hard to evaluate if it is actually decent. Looking at the card my biggest worry is that his second ability is only usable on our upkeep, which certainly limits how often it can get used. In the least it can fix some draws and putting stuff in the yard isn't that bad either, but at the same time card slots are tough to come by already.

Lazotep Minister can be interesting if you are behind, but the activation cost and it being amass has me being pretty mediocre on it. If there was room I might try it, but there is other cards that would want that slot first.

Unworthy Gravedigger is one I was at first glance not interested in, as it directs the deck into a completely different direction with using Entomb effects. Right now we have Varina to fill our yard with usually more than one creature, which is the current game plan. The deathtouch part is always nice though, as it can keep someone from swinging in, but if I were to run it for that then the card is just too expensive and I'd likely be running something like Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight instead.

The only reason I am considering to try Unworthy Gravedigger after all, is that I'm running Wonder and this would be a way to get it into my graveyard more reliably to provide evasion. Or in the least give some option to deal with flyers as those can indeed be pesky.

[Falkenbach]

The biggest problem for Unworthy Gravedigger, for me is that he cost 4 mana which i found annoying because varina also cost 4 mana.. and she has top priorty. I am hoping like many others (I think) for a Archaeomancer effect on a zombie to get our instants and sorceries back to hand.

[WizardMN]

Your experience is one of the reasons I am really getting down on Commander Damage being a thing. It used to be a way for some voltron decks to actually compete but I think we are pretty well past the point where that is needed. Sure, it is a "counter" to infinite life, but it seems pop up in situations like this where it is just "attack, attack, good game" and the game is suddenly over. Not exactly the point of your post but still something I am liking less and less.

I had commented on Master and Minister and I think I will still try the former and will skip the latter. But Gravedigger is an interesting one and I am pretty much in the same boat as some of you where the effect is pretty good, but the cost is just a little too much. 4 mana to Entomb puts it at a weird spot in the deck. It might be worth trying out, but I just don't think it really has a home. The main strike against it, beyond the cost, is that anything we do with it is telegraphed. We aren't going to be able to cast it, get something in the yard, and reanimate all in the same turn. Or, it will be somewhat rare to do so. So we spend 4 mana to get it down, put Gray Merchant, or Wayward Servant, or Noxious Ghoul in the yard, and then give opponents an entire turn cycle (or more) to realize we just put something in the yard because we want to get it back.

I guess it almost seems like it draws attention to our game plan. Rather than being this idea of "oh, no, I *had* to discard Gray Merchant to Varina because my hand is bad, please don't come after me" we pretty much tell opponents we are about to reanimate stuff and they better point some grave hate in our direction. 3 mana would help this a little but I still think the effect, while good, puts a target on our graveyard more than most other effects we have and opponents (who are paying attention anyway) are going to start trying to figure out why we just Entombed for a card and did nothing with it.

I will admit though that pairing it with Apprentice Necromancer can be pretty sweet and would allow for the immediate reanimation of said card. I know this is in some lists so I would be curious if the pairing of Necromancer and Gravedigger is enough to make the Gravedigger worthwhile.

[pokken]

I really like Unworthy Gravedigger for its interaction with Dread Return, and having deathtouch. I am pretty sure I would force it, just for the opportunity to cast it then slam dread return something game ending.

4 mana is a lot but at least it's not 5 like the lamia

[Nimbaway]

The pairing with Apprentice Necromancer is probably the most notable thing that maybe could warrant including it. Drawing into the two wouldn't happen that often I feel, but reanimating both during a mass reanimate could be interesting to grab a final piece to help out the swing. Like when you haven't drawn into your Gray Merchant of Asphodel yet, then it could certainly would hit something.

The more I think of it, I might end up giving this one a go. I'm not really planning to hard cast it though, as it indeed telegraphs a lot and people in the least tend to be wary of graveyard shenanigans with Varina. Instead it's something I would happily pitch and have it put in the work when I bring the bunch back.

As far as Commander Damage goes, this is definitely not the kind of deck that pursues that goal and a fair amount of decks have moved away from that. Nonetheless, it still will pop up from time to time, at which point its hoping for removal or else take the hits.

With how things have been for me lately and the changes made so far, I'm going to remove the small lab man package that I've been running. In my first runs with the deck I churned through my library a lot, making it viable but since taking out Alhammarret's Archive and Kindred Discovery that hasn't really been the case. I've debated bringing back Archive over Teferi's Ageless Insight, mostly because the deck can sometimes be rough on blue sources and Archive has no color restricitions. Still Insight is a mana cheaper and slightly less quickly removed since some people still value the life gain as a threat.

[toctheyounger]

Master of Death certainly holds some interest to me, but I agree that it is hard to evaluate if it is actually decent. Looking at the card my biggest worry is that his second ability is only usable on our upkeep, which certainly limits how often it can get used. In the least it can fix some draws and putting stuff in the yard isn't that bad either, but at the same time card slots are tough to come by already.

Unworthy Gravedigger is one I was at first glance not interested in, as it directs the deck into a completely different direction with using Entomb effects. Right now we have Varina to fill our yard with usually more than one creature, which is the current game plan. The deathtouch part is always nice though, as it can keep someone from swinging in, but if I were to run it for that then the card is just too expensive and I'd likely be running something like Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight instead.

Agreed, Master is going to take some trialling. On one hand, surveil 2 is very good, and being on ETB is great. The recursion I think is fine, if a little middling and that's where the trialling comes in. I will say, it's nice that it doesn't matter how it got to the yard. It means that I always have something I can toss to a Varina trigger, which my previous post alluded to being a bit of a problem ongoing. So...it might be worth it.

Unworthy Gravedigger for me is slightly better. Like I say, Corpse Connoisseur was very good for fetching Gravecrawler, and this would do the same. Or something juicy for Apprentice Necromancer to reanimate. Honestly even at a base value of just Entombing something like Gray Merchant of Asphodel or Wayward Servant for mass reanimation, that can sometimes be the difference between winning and almost winning. So, I think I'll try and get it in here.

Your experience is one of the reasons I am really getting down on Commander Damage being a thing. It used to be a way for some voltron decks to actually compete but I think we are pretty well past the point where that is needed. Sure, it is a "counter" to infinite life, but it seems pop up in situations like this where it is just "attack, attack, good game" and the game is suddenly over. Not exactly the point of your post but still something I am liking less and less.

It's a boring way to win for sure. I feel like it puts emphasis on the destination rather than the journey, and that's just not me. That being said, I had a window and didn't take it, so this loss is on me. I don't regret it, I was way ahead of the rest of the table whether they realised it or not, so Rifting would've been feelbads, and ultimately I don't wanna be that asshole that spikes out a casual game with a tuned deck. So yeah it was a bit of a bummer, but what can you do?

I guess it almost seems like it draws attention to our game plan. Rather than being this idea of "oh, no, I *had* to discard Gray Merchant to Varina because my hand is bad, please don't come after me" we pretty much tell opponents we are about to reanimate stuff and they better point some grave hate in our direction. 3 mana would help this a little but I still think the effect, while good, puts a target on our graveyard more than most other effects we have and opponents (who are paying attention anyway) are going to start trying to figure out why we just Entombed for a card and did nothing with it.

I don't directly know how critical this is going to be. Granted, Entomb is instant speed, so you can readily avoid this. I've had T2 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur in Dralnu, Lich Lord plenty enough times to know that timing is crucial. At the same time though, I wonder how often this particular card is the point at which people clue on and decide we're up to no good. Honestly, I think that happens before this drops.

[WizardMN]

I don't wanna be that asshole that spikes out a casual game with a tuned deck.

I mean sure, but unless you are playing tribal elves, goblins, or wizards, I have a hard believing most people are going to consider most tribal decks too spiky But I get it and I can see where that sort of thing might just be not quite right for the table.

At the same time though, I wonder how often this particular card is the point at which people clue on and decide we're up to no good. Honestly, I think that happens before this drops.

This is a fair point too and I really only bring it up because no one ever seems to recognize what is going on when I play it online. Sure, people *should* figure it out, but that isn't the way it tends to play out. I mean, I think I have been hit with grave hate maybe once or twice in all the games I have played. It just never registers for people that we are actually wanting to use our graveyard since we aren't actively using it. Karador or Muldrotha uses it every turn so it is more obvious. This deck is basically just sitting there with the yard not being used....until it is with a big spell. Maybe Gravedigger won't have that impact but my experience so far is that people tend to leave me alone and it seems like Gravedigger could at least clue them into the idea that I am going to use it eventually.

[toctheyounger]

Maybe Gravedigger won't have that impact but my experience so far is that people tend to leave me alone and it seems like Gravedigger could at least clue them into the idea that I am going to use it eventually.

Yeah, that is a good point and you may be right. I never really had it happen with Corpse Connoisseur, but it's my experience that most folk don't run enough answers anyway. I think I've been bogged like once ever with this build. But yeah, I get what you're saying, this potential addition is more transparent than we otherwise have at present.

[WizardMN]

That is actually a pretty good point. It might not be as much that people don't know what is going to happen; just that they don't have the answers for it. Which, given that, my reservations about the Gravedigger become less relevant.

I am not sure I will try because the mana cost is still a little high but it does have some interesting lines with Mission Briefing and Rift or Winds if needed. As my own thread has shown, I have a pretty decent number of "flex slots" as it is, so it wouldn't be the worst thing to slot it in and try it out. So, I might end up doing that with this and the Master. It might require me to cut Binding Mummy again but I think I have some other slots that aren't really right at the moment anyway.

[toctheyounger]

That is actually a pretty good point. It might not be as much that people don't know what is going to happen; just that they don't have the answers for it. Which, given that, my reservations about the Gravedigger become less relevant.

I am not sure I will try because the mana cost is still a little high but it does have some interesting lines with Mission Briefing and Rift or Winds if needed. As my own thread has shown, I have a pretty decent number of "flex slots" as it is, so it wouldn't be the worst thing to slot it in and try it out. So, I might end up doing that with this and the Master. It might require me to cut Binding Mummy again but I think I have some other slots that aren't really right at the moment anyway.

I mean I've still got Nev in my list. I'm pretty sure this is better suited.

[yeti1069]

Think I get my yard exiled at least once every 3 games or so, maybe more, and get high value stuff singly removed every other game probably.

[toctheyounger]

Think I get my yard exiled at least once every 3 games or so, maybe more, and get high value stuff singly removed every other game probably.

Is your meta pretty fixed? Presumably once someone knows what the deck does they'd pack answers.

Most of my games are online hookups for lack of a better term, so it might well be a little easier for me to get my wins in. That being said, I'm usually not shy about what I'm doing; I drop high value creatures in the yard, very rarely non-permanent spells whatsoever unless I've picked up an answer that's better than what I'm holding. It really doesn't take a mathematical genius to put 2 and 2 together.

[Eburon]

Hello all,

I have been lurking here for a while and really been soaking up all the card evaluations and other information. As I am tuning my own build, I am trying to figure out how to evaluate a few cards:

Rise of the Dread Marn : Most of the time it gets foretold if I have nothing better to do and it just hangs out there because I have other things to do. That said, it can be a good way to reset your board after a board wipe. I am wondering what y'all think about this card?

Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant : I haven't used any of his abilities efficiently yet. I am wondering if it is really worth having him in the build. Sure, he has potential, but how often is it really used?

Read the Runes : It is most often card selection rather than card draw. I love that it is instead speed and has situations in which it can be really explosive (I have fired it off for 10 with Bone Miser in play once). Sometimes, I wonder if raw card draw is better?

God-Eternal Bontu : This is on the same level as the other 5-drops for me (Grimgrin, Corpse-Born / Havengul Lich , The Scarab God ). It seems that all have pros and cons and I am not sure which directions to go with them.

Alhammarret's Archive and Kindred Discovery : Both draw extra cards, but both come out late. I am likely not playing both (I already play Teferi's Ageless Insight ). I am wondering if one is better than the other, or if it would make sense to switch to something like Painful Truths ?

Mirrorweave : Sometimes a blowout, sometimes a dead card. What are your experiences with it?

I want to thank all of you for all what I have learned so far and I am excited to have found this thread.

[Nimbaway]

To be honest, I'm only running Mirrorweave of those cards in my list, the others have slowly been replaced by other cards. Mirrorweave is just something that can help you win games and sometimes you get into situations where aggro alone isn't going to cut it, if you have something like Mission Briefing in the deck as well it also becomes less of a dead card. We can loot our way through our deck and I've no issues tossing this into the yard knowing I might be able to grab it back later. Is it a must include, I don't think it is, but I've been enjoying the shenanigans it brings to the table.

[Eburon]

Mission Briefing is a card that I should slot in which gives us access to lots of shenanigans as we loot through our deck. I am finding that I am usually rummaging until I find a Living Death effect. I have not yet tried Twilight's Call, but is something I could consider.

Thanks for the feedback. I just slotted in Archaeomancer's Map instead of a Fellwar Stone, which I think will be an improvement.

[WizardMN]

Rise of the Dread Marn : Most of the time it gets foretold if I have nothing better to do and it just hangs out there because I have other things to do. That said, it can be a good way to reset your board after a board wipe. I am wondering what y'all think about this card?

I find it to be too situational and reactive. It is a good card when it works but I thought I was sitting around waiting for the right time to use it and it just never panned out as being that great.

Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant : I haven't used any of his abilities efficiently yet. I am wondering if it is really worth having him in the build. Sure, he has potential, but how often is it really used?

We have had quite a bit of back and forth on this (not sure if that was here or in my thread) and I ended up cutting it. 7 mana and a sac outlet to get use out of it right away was just too much for me. And the deck doesn't really play a ton of sac outlets as it is so it is hard to control to even get the wrath option let alone get the optimal use out of him.

Read the Runes : It is most often card selection rather than card draw. I love that it is instead speed and has situations in which it can be really explosive (I have fired it off for 10 with Bone Miser in play once). Sometimes, I wonder if raw card draw is better?

I used to run it in my list and it just ends up not being that great. It makes sense on paper but the problem is that it only really does one thing: fill the yard. It does it very well, but at some point I want actual card advantage and I just felt that for the mana I would rather have something better. Pull from Tomorrow is a better option. For a single mana more, you get to keep all those cards.

With that in mind, @pokken had suggested Painful Truths in my thread and I am currently experimenting with it. So far I like it. It isn't super powerful by any means, but it does what I need it to *when* I need it to and I think the "when" is the big piece. I ended up cutting Pull from Tomorrow for it since I could more easily fire it off early to sort of refill my hand. But if you want the massive card draw, I would go with Pull over Read the Runes any day.

God-Eternal Bontu : This is on the same level as the other 5-drops for me (Grimgrin, Corpse-Born / Havengul Lich , The Scarab God ). It seems that all have pros and cons and I am not sure which directions to go with them.

I have done a lot of experimenting with the right card draw effects in the deck and Bontu ended up being cut for other options. I would suggest reading my thread for some of my musings on card draw in general, but Bontu is too slow and doesn't do enough when trying to really dig for something.

Alhammarret's Archive and Kindred Discovery : Both draw extra cards, but both come out late. I am likely not playing both (I already play Teferi's Ageless Insight ). I am wondering if one is better than the other, or if it would make sense to switch to something like Painful Truths ?

Again, a lot of discussion has been had around these cards and I ended up getting rid of Archive and Discovery. I did add Insight back in as a test but I had cut that at one point as well. I did mentioned Painful Truths above and I am trying to lean more into those types of things. Coming out late is the biggest issue for me but both (all 3 really) requiring a board state *and* Varina was enough of a drawback too. When you do get everything to line up they are absolutely fantastic cards, but they do not work well on their own.

Mirrorweave : Sometimes a blowout, sometimes a dead card. What are your experiences with it?[/quote]

I never got this to work in any sort of significant capacity so I just cut it. I know toc likes it and has had some good uses out of it, but I really got to the point where it didn't fit the deck and didn't do as much as I would have liked.

[Eburon]

Rise of the Dread Marn : Most of the time it gets foretold if I have nothing better to do and it just hangs out there because I have other things to do. That said, it can be a good way to reset your board after a board wipe. I am wondering what y'all think about this card?

I find it to be too situational and reactive. It is a good card when it works but I thought I was sitting around waiting for the right time to use it and it just never panned out as being that great.

I'd have to agree I often feel the same way. The only nice thing is that it also counts your opponents creatures, but it might indeed be too situational.

Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant : I haven't used any of his abilities efficiently yet. I am wondering if it is really worth having him in the build. Sure, he has potential, but how often is it really used?

We have had quite a bit of back and forth on this (not sure if that was here or in my thread) and I ended up cutting it. 7 mana and a sac outlet to get use out of it right away was just too much for me. And the deck doesn't really play a ton of sac outlets as it is so it is hard to control to even get the wrath option let alone get the optimal use out of him.

I think this alone has made my decision to have him on my "maybe list" rather than my decklist the correct one. He seems "cute", but often cute cards are just that.

Read the Runes : It is most often card selection rather than card draw. I love that it is instead speed and has situations in which it can be really explosive (I have fired it off for 10 with Bone Miser in play once). Sometimes, I wonder if raw card draw is better?

I used to run it in my list and it just ends up not being that great. It makes sense on paper but the problem is that it only really does one thing: fill the yard. It does it very well, but at some point I want actual card advantage and I just felt that for the mana I would rather have something better. Pull from Tomorrow is a better option. For a single mana more, you get to keep all those cards.

With that in mind, @pokken had suggested Painful Truths in my thread and I am currently experimenting with it. So far I like it. It isn't super powerful by any means, but it does what I need it to *when* I need it to and I think the "when" is the big piece. I ended up cutting Pull from Tomorrow for it since I could more easily fire it off early to sort of refill my hand. But if you want the massive card draw, I would go with Pull over Read the Runes any day.

One thing that goes for Read the Runes in my list is that I play Archfiend of Ifnir and loving that card. Read the Runes does have good interaction with that card as well as with Bone Miser. That said, I will try to find some room for the cards you mentioned (likely over something like Alhammaret's Archive).

God-Eternal Bontu : This is on the same level as the other 5-drops for me (Grimgrin, Corpse-Born / Havengul Lich , The Scarab God ). It seems that all have pros and cons and I am not sure which directions to go with them.

I have done a lot of experimenting with the right card draw effects in the deck and Bontu ended up being cut for other options. I would suggest reading my thread for some of my musings on card draw in general, but Bontu is too slow and doesn't do enough when trying to really dig for something.

I did recently add Plumb the Forbidden (after reading your thread). All of the 5 drops mentioned have some application, but I feel they are not quite where we want to be. Bontu was still left as I am slowly transitioning.

Alhammarret's Archive and Kindred Discovery : Both draw extra cards, but both come out late. I am likely not playing both (I already play Teferi's Ageless Insight ). I am wondering if one is better than the other, or if it would make sense to switch to something like Painful Truths ?

Again, a lot of discussion has been had around these cards and I ended up getting rid of Archive and Discovery. I did add Insight back in as a test but I had cut that at one point as well. I did mentioned Painful Truths above and I am trying to lean more into those types of things. Coming out late is the biggest issue for me but both (all 3 really) requiring a board state *and* Varina was enough of a drawback too. When you do get everything to line up they are absolutely fantastic cards, but they do not work well on their own.

Insight has been decent for me so far (it is less cumbersome than the other Archive/Discovery). Sometimes it is good to remember that most often Magic is not played with a magical Xmasland situation.

Mirrorweave : Sometimes a blowout, sometimes a dead card. What are your experiences with it?

I never got this to work in any sort of significant capacity so I just cut it. I know toc likes it and has had some good uses out of it, but I really got to the point where it didn't fit the deck and didn't do as much as I would have liked.

Toc's love for the card is what has made me try it. I have not seen it enough to truly evaluate it well.

PS: Thanks for the feedback @WizardMN

[toctheyounger]

Oh man, am I ever behind the 8-ball here. Still got a set review and recent updates posts, expect to be indundated today.

@Eburon thanks for popping in, always nice to see a new face!

You're pretty much in the right place with all of these:
Rise of the Dread Marn is pretty situational. I think in the right meta it could be good, similar to Liliana's Standard Bearer. If you see a lot of wipes from your opponents, its worth holding up mana for. If not, it just costs that much more to hold up mana for a response to your own wipe, and that's tough in this build.

Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant - On paper he looks like just what the decks needs, but he's just awkward in too many ways. I've had good results with him as a rattlesnake, but really only when there's nothing else to do, and without a dedication to a more sacrifice oriented playstyle he's just not in the right place.

Read the Runes - I like that its instant speed, I like that there's options for sculpting your hand or board to optimise it, but ultimately you're right, it's filtering more so than draw.

God-Eternal Bontu - I've had good results with him. 5CMC is the logjam for our curve almost always, and dropping at that time is a good way to refill the hand, but again, yes, it's very varied. I think part of the reason I've had good results is being able to play around Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Gravecrawler, Relentless Dead and Apprentice Necromancer with him. Stuff that you don't lose tempo too much with. All that being said, Plumb the Forbidden is a lot more mana efficient, and absolute nadir of value with it you don't need to sac anything at all to draw 1 with it. I currently run both, but I will admit there's a big tempo loss with Bontu post Reprocessing.

Kindred Discovery/Alhammarret's Archive - I've yet to regret dropping Kindred Discovery. It's very easy to win after it resolves, but ultimately that's just through pure card draw digging for your actual win condition of choice. By choice, I'd prefer to have more synergy and redundancy in my win options, so this really just becomes a pseudo-tutor in that respect. I think in a Laboratory Maniac style build it would be optimal, but with a midrange/tempo build like this one, it's just removal fodder. Archive is a little different, albeit still pricey. It's less crazy, and working on two variables helps a)get you closer to a win, b)make Varina's filtering card positive instead of card-neutral, and c)keep your life total further from 0. The last is fairly collateral, but it's not nothing. Regardless, were I to cut I card draw doubler it would be Archive over Teferi's Ageless Insight definitely.

Mirrorweave - To be honest, it's easy to admit it's a pet card for me. It can absolutely win games though, with enough of a presence. One of my favourite plays a little while ago was to target Noosegraf Mob (and I kinda miss that card tbh) during an opponent's turn and just make an army, but the reason I have it is there's just a lot of potential targets, and that includes whatever your opponents cast too. It can mute alpha strikes, commander damage, make your board massive or make your opponents haemorrhage. That being said, if there's not a suitable use for it I have no compunctions discarding it, and something like Mission Briefing does make less more of a dead card.

[WizardMN]

I did recently add Plumb the Forbidden (after reading your thread). All of the 5 drops mentioned have some application, but I feel they are not quite where we want to be. Bontu was still left as I am slowly transitioning.

Plumb has been pretty good for me. Just watch out for that life loss. I would say though that Grimgrin has been an absolute allstar in my deck. As mentioned, 5 mana is tough but of those you mentioned, Grimgrin would be the last I would cut. And, in fact, so far is the last to remain (though I never did run The Scarab God).

[toctheyounger]

Modern Horizons 2 Set Review

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Here we are again, and there's a ton of hype for the set in general. Yay fetches! We've all been over these here and there, and there's some stuff for us to consider, but probably less than any of us would've liked really.

Let's dive in.

Artifacts/Colorless/Lands

• Marsh Flats - This one is more for me than anyone else to say whether it's good or not. We know it is. If the price drops enough I'll grab it. I'm fairly neurotic so I won't pick up off-colour fetches, but one is better than none, and I can wait for reprints of Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta.

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White

• Out of Time - I really like this as a card, and I think there's places it'll be pretty neat control, but this isn't one of them.
• Resurgent Belief - I really like this card too, I just don't want to suspend it. If it had a CMC (I'd probably pay up to 5-6 tops) I'd trial it, but without scope for cascade I'll leave this one where it is.

Blue

• Mystic Redaction - This would be a pretty neat addition for a mill archetype build.

Black

• Damn - Again, I really like this. Is it a lock? No. Could it possibly be quite a good replacement for Supreme Verdict? Yes. I'm picking one or two of these up, so it might happen.
• Nested Shambler - Hey, thanks, I hate it. We do not need any more squirrels, and honestly I hope MaRo can keep his weird squirrel fetish in his pants from here on in. You got your tribe, let's leave it there. This could actually do quite well if we didn't care about tribe and just wanted numbers though.
• Unmarked Grave - It's fine. It's no Entomb, and I have enough copies of that that I could have got it in here if I thought it would really be needed.
• Vile Entomber - We've talked this one over already. It's marginal enough that it's going to need trialling before I know how good it is. I like deathtouch, the CMC is fine, and the effect is good. There'll be plays with Gravecrawler, Apprentice Necromancer and mass reanimations, so it could be quite nice. It's nice that it can fetch anything too, not just creatures.

Multicolored

• Dakkon, Shadow Slayer - I really like the design here. I don't think it fits in this deck, but it's not too far from useful. Surveil is good, exile with no further conditions is good. If we had enough artifacts worth cheating in, I'd consider it. I also don't think we're likely to ramp enough to make this amazingly good.
• Lazotep Chancellor - We've been over this, fine but not stellar. Paying 1 for amassing is a bit tight, and amass is a fairly weak ability without a clear dedication to sacrifice and attrition.
• Master of Death - The best of the bunch for us I think. Surveil 2 is quite good, and while the recursion isn't perfect, I do like that it's self encapsulated. Whatever else gets screwed with on our board, this guy will keep coming back as long as you want him to. I think the big thing for me in that respect is having constant discard fodder for Varina, that's actually really good.