Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

You guys are great!! Thank you for explaining your experiences and logic behind your card-calls. I've been asking about several specific cards lately as they've all been crossing my mind as either cut or add potentials. I have some reasoning behind my thoughts and some play experience, but more heads brings greater depth of thought about each of them. Much appreciated gentlemen. I really enjoy following both of your threads and get excited to read the latest from everyone contributing.

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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

One play experience I had recently was in a 1 vs 1 game against Ezuri, Renegade Leader in which I drew a fair number of the basic lands from my library. I'm currently running 9 (5 swamps and 2 of each plains and islands). I got out Land Tax mid game and got to use it a 1.333 times in that I added three basics in my hand the first time and the second upkeep that it triggered there was only a single other basic land in my library as I had already drawn or filtered the others. I don't have an Archaeomancer's Map yet. (One is on the way.) I'm running 36 lands in total so 25% of my deck are basics. This may have been a special case, but either way I didn't get as much use out of Land Tax as would be nice. I've noticed @WizardMN is running 40 lands (16 basics) and 6 pieces of fixing and ramp (rocks, Tithe, Land Tax). @toctheyounger You're running 37 lands (17 basics) and 7 pieces of fixing and ramp. First, I already knew this but confirmed it looking at your decks that I probably need to bump up my basic land count, but second I wonder what a decent amount of ramp & fixing should be? Less lands and more rocks? Or more lands and less rocks? I'm also running 8 sources of ramp and fixing. Do you all feel like you have a greater chance of having your rocks and enchantment ramp blown out and thus use more lands? Is that primarily a meta call for each of you?

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

@ChocoDude firstly thanks for the kind words, and honestly I feel like I've benefitted as much from the discourse here and on @WizardMN's thread as much as anyone else, so thanks in return for your input.

As far as my ramp package goes, it is in a state of flux right now so I'm not sure how useful my information is, but here's where my thoughts are.

Overall I think there's a strong case for removing classical rocks for ramp pieces like Archaeomancer's Map and Land Tax (and to a lesser degree Sword of the Animist which I'm quite happy with for now). Partially that's because they're more stable and less prone to disruption, and partially because they remove more chaff from your deck and allow Varina to let you see more actual strategy pieces. I think the same applies to pieces like Smothering Tithe with the burst mana they give. It's a fleeting advantage and while it's undoubtedly a strong piece in the right place, it's a lot less robust than just getting lands in play (I'm going to pulling my copy from the deck in due course).

In terms of basics, ultimately my count is higher purely for the fact that I don't own fetches, duals or other high cost land staples for the format. At this point I probably never will. I think where you fall on this spectrum really depends on your collection, your income and what you're comfortable spending to be honest. 36 does seem a little light on lands to me, but if it's been working for you there's no immediate need to address that to my mind.
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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

I am going back and forth about adding Agent of Erebos as i already have the withered wretch in my list. Has the agent ever backfired for you guys? Being reanimated/ copied to exile your own graveyard?

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

@ChocoDude
I was actually at 4 basics at one point and I started bumping that up to support Map and Tax. @pokken has had some reasonable thoughts on ramp vs land drops that I think apply here (and elsewhere) and was the one that suggested going down the 2 mana rocks. I didn't want to be without them entirely so I went up Arcane Signet. But no, I don't think it is a meta call. It is more personal taste. I have stated time and again that I don't like mana dorks and we have commented a few times on how bad it feels to have our ramp blown up. So, for me at least, I was willing to give a try at prioritizing land drops over actual ramp and so far it has been working pretty well. A couple of times I had my rocks blown up and it wasn't nearly as devastating as it has been in the past since I had made all my land drops along with it. In the past I found that my Mana Crypt/Sol Ring getting destroyed was made even worse because I missed a couple land drops which now isn't the case as much.

So, basically, what @toctheyounger said above :)

As for the actual land count, that is still being worked on. As I mentioned in my thread, as I go through changes I always seem to have more cuts that additions so at one point it just made sense to toss in another land. My sweet spot is 38-39 in most cases but doing so here means I need another 2 cards to add :P

I don't usually like going down to 37 though this deck has a fairly low curve so it is doable. And with all the other cards trying to ensure land drops, it becomes less of an issue. I don't know that I could swing 36 lands. I agree with toc that this seems really light. I would bump that to 38 and try that out and then knock it down to 37 if you feel you get flooded. I do think that in this deck getting flooded is easily mitigated with Varina herself and gives you discard fodder whereas getting screwed at least feels worse. Varina can get you out of that too but discarding gas for lands feels different than discarding lands for gas and if you don't get to swing with Varina, it is much harder to get out of a tough situation with too few lands than too many.
Falkenbach wrote:
2 years ago
I am going back and forth about adding Agent of Erebos as i already have the withered wretch in my list. Has the agent ever backfired for you guys? Being reanimated/ copied to exile your own graveyard?
Not yet but it is something I have worried about in some games. Generally, if I absolutely have to discard a Zombie (at least early where I still want to cast some instead of setting up reanimation), Agent tends to be the first to go. Which does then open up the possibility of it being used against us. Varina can help, if she is on the board, by exiling Agent in response to it being used, so that is relevant. But I tend to find that not many people run reanimation or Body Double type effects online at least and even if they do, they tend to go after their own stuff, or bigger stuff, than just a 2/2. Some of this is threat assessment on their part and some of it is just how much we put in the yard. If we put 15 zombies in the yard with no payoff and we get blown out, that is on us. But if we have 5 or so zombies and they get exiled, we still have others than can work out just fine.

I think this is something that is changing in metas that we benefit from: very few decks are dedicated graveyard decks anymore. Sure, Muldrotha exists but I haven't seen it in a long time. I remember when I was first starting out that decks using the graveyard were fairly common but with the advent of Golos, Chulane, Korvold, most Partners, and a bunch of other popular commanders that don't care about the graveyard, grave hate is getting less and less relevant. Which, of course, is part of the discussion had above with Agent and Ashiok.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
In the past I found that my Mana Crypt/Sol Ring getting destroyed was made even worse because I missed a couple land drops which now isn't the case as much
This is pretty much exactly what I was experiencing that started me on that train of thought. I'd have 4 lands and 3 rocks on turn 6, someone would pop my crypt and now I'm at parity and I've spent 4 mana on signets so I'm actually somewhat behind where I would have been if I'd just played untapped lands and cast my spells. your deck winds up being like half ramp and card draw to make up for all the air you've got, and you sometimes get wrong-halfed.

There are definitely games I lose from not ramping hard enough but the Ramp Slot Machine has as many "Oh, you cast Collector Ouphe I guess I lose" as "Ooh, Ancient Tomb into Azorius Signet I guess I win!"

I'm mostly at the point where I try to play mostly synergistic ramp and a little bit of goodstuff. Like, sol ring/mana crypt definitely belong because they're basically better than lands, but I'm much less high on signets unless the deck can do something else with them.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
I'm mostly at the point where I try to play mostly synergistic ramp and a little bit of goodstuff. Like, sol ring/mana crypt definitely belong because they're basically better than lands, but I'm much less high on signets unless the deck can do something else with them.
And, arguably, this is becoming easier to do for all colors. Obviously Land Tax and Tithe have existed for a while, but Map is another step in the right direction. Blue has always had card draw, and green of course ramps.

Black and Red might be in a little bit more of a tough spot with this but Red does have Impulsive draw that helps a lot and Black still as their cheaper draw spells like Night's Whisper. Mono Red decks tend to really rely on, and benefit from rocks early on so I don't think this idea is an absolute but at least they have the tools to make their land drops. So, Black might be in the worst position for this idea. But in the colors that can support it, I think it is reasonable to move more in this direction with regards to lands vs rocks.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
Black and Red
Red *if you have a Gauntlet of Might* has a pretty decent angle of 'let's double our mana!' but I'd like to see some more mountain-focused ones at some point. Stuff like Koth of the Hammer.

Black has Expedition Map Cabal Coffers angle which is superb even in 2 color decks that lean hard black. I'd love to see more swamp tutoring effects though, Liliana of the Dark Realms is legit. Black also has swamp doublers so you can do coffers/swamps plan and have multiple ways to get there. Nirkana Revenant Crypt Angel Crypt Ghast type stuff. And they are synergistic.

The interesting thing about both of those approaches is that they are anti-synergies with mana rocks for the most part (since you want to be hitting your lands) and also anti-synergies with non-basic lands.

For me, I will take any excuse to jam Thawing Glaciers into a deck =P
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Sure, both have some of the better ways to double mana once you have lands, but they can still be tough to get to those lands. I do like Rings of Brighthearth and fetches/Glaciers though it is hard to justify Rings just for that. Solemn Simulacrum and Burnished Hart are still options as well.

But I was thinking more on the side of Liliana of the Dark Realms (which I had forgotten about) just as ways to ensure land drops. Black doesn't really have much else whereas Red gets the impulsive draws to potentially see more cards to hit more land drops.

I do agree that these things are anti-synergy with rocks so even with the "limitations" of these colors, some of their best ramp options still want to get to lands which lessens the need for rocks.

Also, I think you meant Crypt Ghast :P

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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
As for the actual land count, that is still being worked on. As I mentioned in my thread, as I go through changes I always seem to have more cuts that additions so at one point it just made sense to toss in another land. My sweet spot is 38-39 in most cases but doing so here means I need another 2 cards to add
Huh...I rejigged my deck some early this morning and had actually settled on 38 lands to try out and 6 pieces of ramp/fixing. I ended up dropping two signets for a plains and a swamp and then removed Exotic Orchard and Reflecting Pool for two swamps to up my basic count to 13. I plan to test out that amount before making any more changes. I also removed Reconnaissance and Ashiok for Winds of Abandon and Mission Briefing since I already had them. I still have an Archaeomander's Map on the way, so another change will occur soon.

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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

Got a couple of games in myself. Added two cards from recent discussion on this and WizardMN thread; Land Tax and Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin.
- Land tax has really performed amazing with securing land drops and making sure i have more flexibility with what I discard with varinas attack trigger.
- Search for azcanta has done more or less the same. digging for a land and dropping some zombies in the yard for a mass reanimation spell.

My build originates from The Scarab God deck which focused more on single target reanimation. While Varina, Lich Queen is more about the mass reanimation like WizardMN pointed out, so i will need to try change my mindset more. 😅

I saw in wizards build Corpse Augur [/card]. I am wondering what you guys experience is with this zombie ?

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Falkenbach wrote:
2 years ago
I saw in wizards build Corpse Augur [/card]. I am wondering what you guys experience is with this zombie ?
That is good to hear other experiences with newer cards. I really think Land Tax is one of the better adds recently and I think Search has potential, though its power is a bit more subtle.

As for Corpse Augur, I haven't seen it in a real game yet so I can't really speak to how good it is. I think it makes sense and I think there are some ways for it to work out in our favor pretty easily but as toc had mentioned there is a real possibility this isn't good enough. Either it is not needed at all (which is sort of where I have been leaning) or the cost isn't worth it. 4 mana is basically one of those spots on the curve that if it doesn't have immediate impact, it is hard to justify. Besides, we do have a fair bit of other draw and with Land Tax allowing us real "draws" from Varina, Augur could be another that doesn't make the cut.

The problem now is the same thing I mentioned in my thread: I am trying to cut more things than I have replacements for. So it probably stays in my list until the Innistrad sets to see if they give us any new Zombies.

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Post by Nimbaway » 2 years ago

I've personally not been fond of Corpse Augur, the mana cost is certainly something to consider but it also depends on a dies trigger for you to net the cards. Furthermore, you don't have a guaranteed amount of cards you draw either, I prefer a regular draw spell over it which also has the added benefit of no life loss.

The last time I saw it in a game it was used against me, as in my opponent targeted me with the trigger since I had a fair amount of creatures in my yard. I opted to sacrifice my board in response, which forced him to draw more cards but also cost him enough life to take him out. My next turn I reanimate my stuff and have one less opponent to worry about, it helped me get the win that turn as without his elimination I wouldn't have been able to take down all of my opponents.

So yeah, my experience with it is that it can be unpredictable, as have ran it in my own decks as well. It's good in something like Teysa Karlov since you don't need an opponent with a huge graveyard to get some draws.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

I'd hazard a guess that the biggest issue with Augur here is that the deck doesn't run many sac outlets, so he doesn't draw when you want it. He may sit out for turns without getting cards, or can get exiled. I liked him in Marchesa where I had a ton of sac outlets.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Nimbaway wrote:
2 years ago
I've personally not been fond of Corpse Augur, the mana cost is certainly something to consider but it also depends on a dies trigger for you to net the cards. Furthermore, you don't have a guaranteed amount of cards you draw either, I prefer a regular draw spell over it which also has the added benefit of no life loss.

So yeah, my experience with it is that it can be unpredictable, as have ran it in my own decks as well. It's good in something like Teysa Karlov since you don't need an opponent with a huge graveyard to get some draws.
I don't even really mind the life loss to be honest. But it is certainly a factor and it is a factor that can be hard to control at times. The unpredictability is a larger factor though. At worst, you get a single draw out of it so not exactly great but not abysmal. Generally though we are going to be putting creatures in the yard so he should be at least a draw 3 I would expect. And that is assuming we target ourselves. There are other options. With that being said.....
yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
I'd hazard a guess that the biggest issue with Augur here is that the deck doesn't run many sac outlets, so he doesn't draw when you want it. He may sit out for turns without getting cards, or can get exiled. I liked him in Marchesa where I had a ton of sac outlets.
In the end this is likely the right assessment. I run 4 sac outlets in my build which is not a lot. Board wipes are another way to get it to die. But there is a real chance that we spend 4 mana to invest in something and we barely get anything out of it. I too run him in Marchesa (though, I am guessing a different Marchesa) and even there it doesn't seem spectacular.

As I have tweaked my build to try to figure out the right amount of card draw, Augur is simply superfluous. He was never in contention for a slot during my myriad of changes and reviews and thoughts on card draw. It just never came into my mind and I think that is right: he shouldn't have. It is not a card that can be reliably added as a real form of card draw. He can offer support when things are already dying and there are enough situations where it ends up being decent that it isn't necessarily wrong to have him. Though I do think it is probably wrong to rely on him but it seems we are mostly in agreement on that point.

I think if the evaluation is "hey this zombie can sometimes draw me a couple cards" he is fine. If the evaluation is "man, this zombie can come at the right time to refill my hand to get me back in the game" that is wrong.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

I ended up cutting him from The Black Rose anyway. 4 mana for inconsistent draw and life loss wasn't what I ultimately wanted there. Could get draw of 1-2 cards for less, and without the life loss tacked on. The deck has others ways of getting off the throne.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Master of Death

New from MH2 - what do we think team?

Personally, I'm not suuuuper hyped for it. Surveil is nice to work with, and it having some baked-in recursion is well and good, but it's not an amazing, definite lock.

Who's thinking of giving it a whirl?
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

well, 2 mana is pretty much the benchmark recyclabro cost these days (Bloodsoaked Champion for example). So 3 is a bit much, but tha surveil 2 is good. Surveil 2 is more than twice as good as surveil 1 I think.

Eh, I don't think I'd bother honestly. 3 mana is a weird place in these decks where you don't want to be glutted.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
well, 2 mana is pretty much the benchmark recyclabro cost these days (Bloodsoaked Champion for example). So 3 is a bit much, but tha surveil 2 is good. Surveil 2 is more than twice as good as surveil 1 I think.

Eh, I don't think I'd bother honestly. 3 mana is a weird place in these decks where you don't want to be glutted.
Agreed. It does make good discard fodder for Varina triggers, but I don't think that's enough to get it in. At the 3 slot is most of the lords which have a pretty big impact in play, so I think it's easy enough to leave this on the sideline as it definitely doesn't beat those out.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Man, I was thinking the opposite. With the effort in trying to find reasonable zombies and the idea that consistency can be pretty key in this deck, I think Master of Death deserves a shot. The fact that it works with Varina is actually pretty significant. I am not saying it is going to break her by any means but just being able to give us an extra card in hand every turn to discard makes her looting that much better.

Now, to be fair, that alone wouldn't be enough to include it. It would effectively be a Phyrexian Arena if that was the case and I think we have gotten to the point where Arena isn't quite good enough. But the Surveil certainly pushes it into playable territory. It solves some issues with wanting to get to lands early on (cast turn 3 and Surveil to hopefully ensure a land turn 4), it can dig us deeper for answers and it can fill our graveyard. And it works reasonably well with some of our creature based draw spells. Cast it, sac it, draw off Midnight Reaper and/or Undead Augur and then get it back next turn to do it again.

I am not claiming this is an absolute powerhouse by any means. But I do think it is a workhorse in a deck that cares about card selection to an extent as well as caring about our graveyard. Worst case, it mills two cards for Varina.

I would point out that I am generally down on Lords in general. I have a few of course, but I had legitimately considered cutting Lord of the Accursed at one point. I am a big believer that the efficacy of our deck is in quantity over quality. Lords make that quantity better, but with enough zombies, it is just overkill. In fact, I just had a game online (that I will be summarizing in my thread shortly) where I dealt over 100 damage in a single swing thanks to Akroma's Will. It was helped by lords but they weren't exactly needed. And I know my playstyle is different in that I don't really treat this as an aggro/swarm deck. I approach it more as a control deck which, to be fair, I approach a lot of decks that way. So my philosophy of the deck likely changes my evaluation but I think Master of Death has some good uses in the deck that I am going to be trying it out.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Yeah I see how it could be useful. Playing it helps fill your yard with the right stuff and fix your topdeck, both of which we get into, and it's repeatable multiple times with just itself, an upkeep and a life total higher than 1. It fills a utility slot rather than being clutch in any way, but I guess what it has over the lords is that its value never changes, where the lords are significantly worse if they're all you've got in play.

I've still got a bit at the top end of the curve, and some of it is flex spot stuff, so it might well get consideration. I'm happy to wait and see what else gets spoiled though. If there's nothing better, I'll trial it.
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Post by Gamazson » 2 years ago

Consistently feeding a Master of Death to Cryptbreaker or Necromancer's Stockpile has potential.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Gamazson wrote:
2 years ago
Consistently feeding a Master of Death to Cryptbreaker or Necromancer's Stockpile has potential.
You're not wrong there either.
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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

I'll definitely be trying to slot in Master of Death.

Surveil 2 here is valuable (oftentimes more so than Scry 2), and bringing him back to hand every upkeep plays well with Varina and a few other cards in the deck. It's like a Zombie Squee.

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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

What about lazotep minister ? I was hyped for it alot when i saw it. But then again u dont go wide with an amass token. What do you guys think?

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