Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

Kvothe
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Post by Kvothe » 4 years ago

I find the lifegain redundant with other effects already in the deck. To avoid blockers I would rather tutor up Zombie Master, although between tokens, recurable creatures and Grave Pact I don't usually care if I'm blocked.
But I can see it fitting a different playstyle/meta than mine.
blinx28 wrote:
4 years ago
I've foregone the token maker spells when i committed to optimize around zombie tribal I use those slots for utility creatures with synergies. If you're mainly going for a swarm, they could be valuable.
Is your list online? I would like to take a look.
blinx28 wrote:
4 years ago
Clamp nonbos with zombies since they're 2/2s, it's only broken when it essentially reads "Pay 1, sac a creature: Draw two cards". Curious about those draw spells as well. Since Varina triggers on attack not damage, it doesn't matter what else is out there if we just need to trigger her, however dealing combat damage can be tough sometimes, and also nonbos with reconnaissance.
They need creatures to deal combat damage but have the advantage of producing card advantage, which could make them desirable.

Haakon could also be useful, and there are a couple of playable Knights.

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Supersprite
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Post by Supersprite » 4 years ago

What about ashiok dreamrender? 3 mana, they cant tutor, -1 selfmill 4... i dont know.. i hate it when they tutor for a combo. And milling 4 every turn? Nice?

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Post by blinx28 » 4 years ago

The new ashiok is awesome and i think would be amazing here. I will continue to leave it out since i just dont know what i'd pull, but it's beyond runable.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/varinas-deadboys/ for kvothe: i like to keep my deck as close to 3 CMC average as possible since my meta is quicker---this is partially why I opted tribal OG vs tokens. Some great token makers and support just push the CMC up too much. I was never seeing any of my cards, nor able to play them before getting blown out by combos and toolbox decks. The mass reanimation route has been extremely helpful to keeping me in my games.

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Post by Kvothe » 4 years ago

I like Ashiok. Like Authority of the Consuls I wouldn't personally play it because of the way I like to build my decks (I want cards to be more synergistic with the gameplan), but I can see why you would put it in your deck.

Thanks for the list blinx28. I'll check it tomorrow. I can appreciate lowering the cmc, mine is bellow 3 for sure. I don't think you have to avoid tokens, mine come mostly from Varina, Field of the Dead, Diregraf Colossus and Stairwell which are all pretty playable. The madness cards I mentioned in the previous page also have good mana/power ratios.

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Post by Supersprite » 4 years ago

blinx28 wrote:
4 years ago
The new ashiok is awesome and i think would be amazing here. I will continue to leave it out since i just dont know what i'd pull, but it's beyond runable.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/varinas-deadboys/ for kvothe: i like to keep my deck as close to 3 CMC average as possible since my meta is quicker---this is partially why I opted tribal OG vs tokens. Some great token makers and support just push the CMC up too much. I was never seeing any of my cards, nor able to play them before getting blown out by combos and toolbox decks. The mass reanimation route has been extremely helpful to keeping me in my games.
Can i ask why you dont play mikaeus? I still need to buy it someday but i tought it was a auto include?

Nova cleansing goes in here 2 seems very versatile!

I see everybody pkays kindred discovery. But im kind of put of by the 3uu cost. Remora, landtax, graveborn muse are all better cheaper draw thingies. Seems a thing to considerate when lowering cmc..

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Post by blinx28 » 4 years ago

Only reason is too expensive for a single piece but one day it may go in for one of the lords or who knows what—-I know it's unparalleled in what it does.

As for Kindred Discovery, I understand how expensive mana wise it is, that's why I only run it, not the 5 drop Alhammarat archive. I nearly drew my deck out with it the other game just with stairwell and reanimation spells. That card single handedly shows me more of my deck than any others. Also my landbase is pretty set up for blue to activate Wonder and Unx's activated ability late game

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

I think Authority of the Consuls is runnable in a tempo swarm build. Drop it early, build an army, strike while the iron is hot. You don't run it purely for the Tombstone Stairwell interaction, if it works otherwise in your build it deserves consideration.

Ashiok, Dreamrender. I mean, I dunno. It's effects are solid, albeit griefy, and there is my first problem with it. It's a red flag to a bull, as the saying goes. My second problem with it is we have no way to tick it up to keep it in play, and my third is we have no way to retrieve it should it when it dies. It just seems like grief for the sake of control without any relevance to the rest of the components we run. Which is fine, but, personally I'd prefer something with a bit more redundancy, especially considering we run so much reanimation. I'm aware there isn't a creature, much less a zombie, that does what Ashiok does, but I'd prefer to wait for one or go without personally. Running it without support seems an invitation to opponents to flush your down the drain.

Kindred Discovery is just disgusting levels of draw here, it shows you more cards in your deck than Archive even. With it's CMC where it is, it's definitely a 'drive the nail home' card for mid-late game to keep momentum up, so I can see how if you run enough tutors or intend to combo out early you could probably leave it out, but for those of us not comboing it's such solid draw I can't anymore see this deck without it. That being said, it's not an 'either/or' - you definitely run early game draw too - mana fixers to get Varina online early, Mystic Remora for me, Phyrexian Arena, Undead Augur, Cryptbreaker, Geier Reach Sanitarium. Without hard tutors redundancy is imperative.

[mention]Supersprite[/mention] how have you got on with Planar Birth? Anything further to report?
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Post by blinx28 » 4 years ago

I think you're right about Ashiok----something i've had to think more about lately is passing the 'good card' threshold. Many options are great, but does their explosiveness synergize with the theme. With Ashiok, i agree it's good but not abusable.

Anyone have good recommendations for graveyard reshuffle effects that have uses besides that when its not needed? I just pulled Echo of Eons which would be great in Varina since we can toss it to the graveyard during a discard and immediately crack it as a Timetwister, but slot feels too narrow for dedicated card. Open to suggestions for when I get close to decking myself again with Kindred Discovery.

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

blinx28 wrote:
4 years ago
I think you're right about Ashiok----something i've had to think more about lately is passing the 'good card' threshold. Many options are great, but does their explosiveness synergize with the theme. With Ashiok, i agree it's good but not abusable.

Anyone have good recommendations for graveyard reshuffle effects that have uses besides that when its not needed? I just pulled Echo of Eons which would be great in Varina since we can toss it to the graveyard during a discard and immediately crack it as a Timetwister, but slot feels too narrow for dedicated card. Open to suggestions for when I get close to decking myself again with Kindred Discovery.
Yeah, I mean it's solid and makes our reanimation more one-sided, it's just a little too corner case for me to consider presently.

Elixir of Immortality? Psychic Spiral could legitimately be a win con in some cases. Then there's Temporal Cascade, Day's Undiong and things that'll selectively save your pieces like Soldevi Digger, Reito Lantern et al. Depends if you want instant speed or not really - there's not a lot outside of Eldrazi Titans if that's the case, and even then it's probably a good idea to run Entomb so you can make sure you miss that Bojuka Bog effect.
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Post by Kvothe » 4 years ago

blinx28 wrote:
4 years ago
Anyone have good recommendations for graveyard reshuffle effects that have uses besides that when its not needed? I just pulled Echo of Eons which would be great in Varina since we can toss it to the graveyard during a discard and immediately crack it as a Timetwister, but slot feels too narrow for dedicated card. Open to suggestions for when I get close to decking myself again with Kindred Discovery.
Maybe Commit // Memory?
Although if you've seen your entire deck maybe you could just find something to win? I doesn't need to be a straight combo but usually that many cards mean you can ping everyone to death.

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

Ýeah, definitely depends on the context - why do you need it [mention]blinx28[/mention]? I think if it's making sure you don't deck yourself there's plenty of Timetwister/reset effects and Echo of Eons would do fine, or something similar would.

If it's combatting grave hate, because so much of it instant speed you probably want something pretty versatile or quick. Perhaps in this case you could widen your net to include things like Stifle effects (Nimble Obstructionist or Voidmage Husher could help too) or just simple denial effects like Time Stop or Summary Dismissal. Or even Venser, Shaper Savant could be reasonable.
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Post by blinx28 » 4 years ago

Great points all around——it's looking like I'm going to skip it. Just not worth a slot, and I did actually win that game by mass reanimating corpse knightand wayward servant with a gy of 9 other creatures. That's after my gy was exiled once as well, so seems like until it's a real problem don't solve it.

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

blinx28 wrote:
4 years ago
Great points all around——it's looking like I'm going to skip it. Just not worth a slot, and I did actually win that game by mass reanimating corpse knightand wayward servant with a gy of 9 other creatures. That's after my gy was exiled once as well, so seems like until it's a real problem don't solve it.
Sounds reasonable - I've been in the same situation myself. Personally I think it comes down to not being too greedy or piling your graveyard too high. It just becomes really obvious what you're doing. Varina kind of masks it in the combat step, but there's definitely a point it becomes clear and you definitely want your reanimation to resolve prior to that point. So long as you're not waiting too long or piling your 'yard too high, even grave exile doesn't necessarily stop you altogether. Besides, if you have mana open you can always use Varina's second ability in response to Bojuka Bog or whatever trigger you're facing and just make some lemonade from those lemons.
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Post by boer0829 » 4 years ago

Played a game last night with Varina and won! Most of the time when I win I switch with another deck so I only played one game. My opponents already knew the deck and were aware of mass reanimation.

Dropped a mana rock and a Zombie Master early. Then dropped Varina and turn after that a Lord Cemetery Reaper or something... Ran out of gas very quickly, top decking. Then, one of my opponents played a Windfall and that put a lot of goodies in my hand. Proceeded to drop zombies, also the new Bone Miser, which is a cute card with a lot of synergy with Varina. Also making a lot of zombie tokens with Varina. Eventually dropping a Shepherd of Rot, Draining for 8 and turn after that for 11. Closing the game with pumped swamp walking zombie token beats

Had an instant speed shenanigan with Varina since one of my opponent was gaining one live, surviving my Shepherd of Rot and him threatening to end the game. Quickly making an extra token so the life gaining was pointless.

- I want to have more cheap card draw in my deck to keep gas. I only have Fact of Fiction. Want to add Windfall and Skeletal Scrying, although the latter one is removing cards from the yard I could use for Varina.
- I only have 2 mass reanimation spells in my deck Living Death and Zombie Apocalypse. I want to add another one and was thinking about Balthor the Defiled. A pity the price of the card went way up since the release of the c19 madness deck.
- Bleeder effects are awesome

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

boer0829 wrote:
4 years ago
Played a game last night with Varina and won! Most of the time when I win I switch with another deck so I only played one game. My opponents already knew the deck and were aware of mass reanimation.

Dropped a mana rock and a Zombie Master early. Then dropped Varina and turn after that a Lord Cemetery Reaper or something... Ran out of gas very quickly, top decking. Then, one of my opponents played a Windfall and that put a lot of goodies in my hand. Proceeded to drop zombies, also the new Bone Miser, which is a cute card with a lot of synergy with Varina. Also making a lot of zombie tokens with Varina. Eventually dropping a Shepherd of Rot, Draining for 8 and turn after that for 11. Closing the game with pumped swamp walking zombie token beats

Had an instant speed shenanigan with Varina since one of my opponent was gaining one live, surviving my Shepherd of Rot and him threatening to end the game. Quickly making an extra token so the life gaining was pointless.

- I want to have more cheap card draw in my deck to keep gas. I only have Fact of Fiction. Want to add Windfall and Skeletal Scrying, although the latter one is removing cards from the yard I could use for Varina.
- I only have 2 mass reanimation spells in my deck Living Death and Zombie Apocalypse. I want to add another one and was thinking about Balthor the Defiled. A pity the price of the card went way up since the release of the c19 madness deck.
- Bleeder effects are awesome
Congrats! Sounds like you had a fun game with some ups and downs, and it's interesting that you were able to switch from aristocrat strategies to combat jamming to drive home the win. It's a talent knowing when to make the change and execute it well, and it's part of why I really enjoy this deck, it's capable of doing both so well.
  • How was the action with Bone Miser? I'm really looking forward to trying it out, but my LGS is out of precons, and there's no singles in stock at the moment.
  • For cheap draw, why not try something like Frantic Search? Potentially free, if not netting you mana, and selective looting is pretty great. Plus it's instant speed. I tend to prefer selective discard myself, purely because it helps me hold on to removal I can't otherwise get back and so forth. Ancient Excavation has been great for me too - scales to your hand, instant speed, player's choice what to loot, and if you don't need it it can grab you a land.
  • Mass reanimation is funny in that all of them (barring the most expensive) have a downside. Balthor the Defiled is cheap enough, and that's cool, but bringing back and creatures means there's a ton of overlap in bringing stuff back for other players. Personally, I'd prefer Patriarch's Bidding, as not everyone runs a tribe. That being said it is quite expensive, so I can totally understand missing it. Took me long enough to grab one myself!
  • What on earth was your friend thinking casting Windfall against this deck???
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Post by RedCheese » 4 years ago

Command the Dreadhorde is another mass reanimation spell you could try. One of the reasoons i have SOrin to give lifelink to my zombies. Really damm usefull.

Decided to replace Phyrexian Altar with Ashnod's Altar. Felt so cheap at times i had infintie combo by accident because of it lol.

BTW, is anyone else here's favourite zombie Noxious Ghoul? What a beast of a card. I won 2 of my matches because of him. The Fractius player i was facing, was cursing the zombie so mutch rofl. It was the bane of the Fractius and other creatures on the table.

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

Precisely why I don't run it myself. I don't judge if others want to combo out, we're in good colours for it, I just don't enjoy it personally.
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Post by boer0829 » 4 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
4 years ago
Congrats! Sounds like you had a fun game with some ups and downs, and it's interesting that you were able to switch from aristocrat strategies to combat jamming to drive home the win. It's a talent knowing when to make the change and execute it well, and it's part of why I really enjoy this deck, it's capable of doing both so well.
How was the action with Bone Miser? I'm really looking forward to trying it out, but my LGS is out of precons, and there's no singles in stock at the moment.
For cheap draw, why not try something like Frantic Search? Potentially free, if not netting you mana, and selective looting is pretty great. Plus it's instant speed. I tend to prefer selective discard myself, purely because it helps me hold on to removal I can't otherwise get back and so forth. Ancient Excavation has been great for me too - scales to your hand, instant speed, player's choice what to loot, and if you don't need it it can grab you a land.
Mass reanimation is funny in that all of them (barring the most expensive) have a downside. Balthor the Defiled is cheap enough, and that's cool, but bringing back and creatures means there's a ton of overlap in bringing stuff back for other players. Personally, I'd prefer Patriarch's Bidding, as not everyone runs a tribe. That being said it is quite expensive, so I can totally understand missing it. Took me long enough to grab one myself!
What on earth was your friend thinking casting Windfall against this deck???
Thank you! Yes it was a fun game and I had a bit of luck that my opponents weren't drawing any mass removal. By the time they were aware of the momentum the deck was gaining they were tutoring for it but it was already too late.

- The action with Bone Miser is cute. It works very well with both Varina abilities adding a lot of synergy. Discarding land cards for mana and then exiling the lands with the mana from Bone Miser to make a zombie token with Varina. Making even more zombie tokens by discarding creatures. It certainly did some work by putting tokens into play and it was helping to close the game. Didnt have the feeling it was a win-more card but it also wasn't the MVP. The problem is, Bone Miser is taking a spot in the cluttered 5cmc section.
- For cheap card draw i'm searching for cards that doesn't let me discard anything. A few turns I was in a topdeck modus so the only thing I did was cycling with Varina to find someting that nets me cards (I play Kindred Discovery and Alhammaret's Arche but didnt find them) So I don't have to discard a lot to Varina. On the other side, Frantic Search is a free dig spell. Something to think about
- Also bringing stuff back for others with Balthor the Defiled wasn't something I was thinking about. I think it depends on the meta. In my meta there aren't many red creatures and black is mostly used tutors. Also when playing mass reanimate it is to end the game very soon, hopefully with some bleeders like Wayward Servant and Gray Merchant of Asphodel. Another upside Balthor has is that it is a creature, which makes it easier to bring back if I had to discard him or something. Patriarch's Bidding is also a card to think about but your opponents are certainly having back that pesky Eternal Witness or Spike Weaver
- Yes, my friend also ran out of gas en he had to do something. He was hesitating about it. That's why I'm thinking about Windfall. A well timed windfall is really bonkers in this deck but it is also cheap card advantage. Also cute synergy with Bone Miser and Archfiend of Ifnir

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Post by boer0829 » 4 years ago

RedCheese wrote:
4 years ago
Command the Dreadhorde is another mass reanimation spell you could try. One of the reasoons i have SOrin to give lifelink to my zombies. Really damm usefull.
Thank you! Really like that card. I think the deck is gaining enough life with Varina to bring back some zombies. Also Sorin is seems useful, makes me think about Whip of Erebos

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 years ago

boer0829 wrote:
4 years ago
The action with Bone Miser is cute. It works very well with both Varina abilities adding a lot of synergy. Discarding land cards for mana and then exiling the lands with the mana from Bone Miser to make a zombie token with Varina. Making even more zombie tokens by discarding creatures. It certainly did some work by putting tokens into play and it was helping to close the game. Didnt have the feeling it was a win-more card but it also wasn't the MVP. The problem is, Bone Miser is taking a spot in the cluttered 5cmc section.
Thanks for this, good to get some feedback on the card. I think it'll be great with things like Zombie Infestation and our fearless leader, I guess it just depends how reliably you can trigger it. Especially because, as you mention, 5 is pretty damn full.
boer0829 wrote:
4 years ago
For cheap card draw i'm searching for cards that doesn't let me discard anything. A few turns I was in a topdeck modus so the only thing I did was cycling with Varina to find someting that nets me cards (I play Kindred Discovery and Alhammaret's Arche but didnt find them) So I don't have to discard a lot to Varina. On the other side, Frantic Search is a free dig spell. Something to think about
You could think about Read the Bones or Notion Rain. At least the discard is optional with NR, and both come with a degree of topdeck fixing. Otherwise, you could go for the kings of the draw spells with things like Dig Through Time or Recurring Insight. Distant Melody could be nuts too, but it's probably at least a little win more, in that it doesn't do much when the chips are down.
boer0829 wrote:
4 years ago
Also bringing stuff back for others with Balthor the Defiled wasn't something I was thinking about. I think it depends on the meta. In my meta there aren't many red creatures and black is mostly used tutors. Also when playing mass reanimate it is to end the game very soon, hopefully with some bleeders like Wayward Servant and Gray Merchant of Asphodel. Another upside Balthor has is that it is a creature, which makes it easier to bring back if I had to discard him or something. Patriarch's Bidding is also a card to think about but your opponents are certainly having back that pesky Eternal Witness or Spike Weaver
Oh yeah, totally. All of the major mass reanimation spells I run have a downside. The upside is that if they play out well they swing the game heavily in my favour or just win outright. Timing is key, and otherwise I run Bojuka Bog, Withered Wretch and Agent of Erebos to make things a little more one-sided. Personally, I just think the possibility of bringing something good back for an opponent is higher with colours than it is with tribes, but he's also a zombie so he's got some synergy and you can trigger him at instant speed, which makes it a bit more versatile. Points for and against each way, it seems.
boer0829 wrote:
4 years ago
Yes, my friend also ran out of gas en he had to do something. He was hesitating about it. That's why I'm thinking about Windfall. A well timed windfall is really bonkers in this deck but it is also cheap card advantage. Also cute synergy with Bone Miser and Archfiend of Ifnir
Yeah, they can be great, and obviously devastating with Archfiend. I pulled Windfall and Whispering Madness out of my deck purely because I wanted to be pretty selective about what hits my graveyard; I can't get instants or sorceries back once they're gone.
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Post by RedCheese » 4 years ago

Talking about Balthor really made me want to try putting him in my deck. Been a zombie creature and having the ability to mass reanimate seems really good.

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Post by Kvothe » 4 years ago

The best part of Balthor is being a creature, so you can recur him from the grave unlike the other mass reanimation.
I added Unburial Rites so I can get the effect with only cards from the grave.

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Post by Supersprite » 4 years ago

7 mana is reasonable mass recursion, especially if you can spread that mana over 2 turns if needed. And a 2/2 zombie it is. Love the angry dwarf zombie, i kinda shuffed it in as a budget patriarchs bidding, now look at balthors price lol

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Post by blinx28 » 4 years ago

Kvothe wrote:
4 years ago
The best part of Balthor is being a creature, so you can recur him from the grave unlike the other mass reanimation.
Sadly Balthor exiles himself so he cannot be recurred. That being said, a very good option that is sadly no longer budget thanks to C19.

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Post by Kvothe » 4 years ago

blinx28 wrote:
4 years ago
Kvothe wrote:
4 years ago
The best part of Balthor is being a creature, so you can recur him from the grave unlike the other mass reanimation.
Sadly Balthor exiles himself so he cannot be recurred. That being said, a very good option that is sadly no longer budget thanks to C19.
I know.
The point is that running both allows me to mill/discard both pieces and still have a mass reanimation effect from the grave, which is very powerful.

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