Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[pzbw7z]

. . . sound off if you think there's something I've missed here.

Truthfully, I don't have any quibbles with these decisions; everything is at least reasonable. I have been meaning to ask about Lords in general, but it's a more in-depth question than I have time for now. I don't play them for the pump, even though it is sometimes useful - it kept an opponent from killing Shepherd of Rot with Blasting Station the other day when ol' Shep' was puttin' in some good work - I play them more for their abilities. I'll warrant that those abilities may not justify their inclusion, nor does the fact that I bought or traded for some of them to build this darn list! I wouldn't be questioning them except I have SO . . . MANY . . . three-drops!

Thus, a complex analysis is in order, but that's for mañana.

I am also debating Necroduality. I passed on one at the local store because I feel as if I would have to cut Rooftop Storm to justify another fairly high-cost enchantment. And I just love my Rooftop Storm. I also have experienced the magnificence it can bring when it works whereas Necroduality is still theory to me. Both together could be stupid good, but I don't know what else I would cut for it.

[toctheyounger]

. . . sound off if you think there's something I've missed here.

Truthfully, I don't have any quibbles with these decisions; everything is at least reasonable. I have been meaning to ask about Lords in general, but it's a more in-depth question than I have time for now. I don't play them for the pump, even though it is sometimes useful - it kept an opponent from killing Shepherd of Rot with Blasting Station the other day when ol' Shep' was puttin' in some good work - I play them more for their abilities. I'll warrant that those abilities may not justify their inclusion, nor does the fact that I bought or traded for some of them to build this darn list! I wouldn't be questioning them except I have SO . . . MANY . . . three-drops!

Thus, a complex analysis is in order, but that's for mañana.

I am also debating Necroduality. I passed on one at the local store because I feel as if I would have to cut Rooftop Storm to justify another fairly high-cost enchantment. And I just love my Rooftop Storm. I also have experienced the magnificence it can bring when it works whereas Necroduality is still theory to me. Both together could be stupid good, but I don't know what else I would cut for it.

Yeah moving away from the lords does feel weird and a little uncomfortable. I still have one in the list so I'm not completely bereft.

I think ultimately the lords work at best tangentially to Varinas first ability- you're going to be attacking so a pump makes that hit harder, but the pump doesn't do anything for making the filter better. By comparison if you go a little wider your attacks can be a touch more suicidal but the filtering really does some work. Its a tradeoff i think theres argument for either way to be honest.

Weve all been there with the 3 slot, its a real thibg for this deck. 5 too, those are just the slots all the popular stuff tends to sit at. I think 3 is a little more forgiving because you can just outramp it, but it can still make for some tough starting hands.

I think Storm/Necro is an either/or myself. I don't run Storm because I don't like the CMC, but it does give you a whole lot of combo lines and whatnot. I think either one can win you the game without the other so its probably easy enough tosave the hassle of finding space for both and just run one or the other. After all its not like we have any easy ways to get them into play (zombie Rector pls WoTC).

[pzbw7z]

I think Storm/Necro is an either/or myself. I don't run Storm because I don't like the CMC, but it does give you a whole lot of combo lines and whatnot. I think either one can win you the game without the other so its probably easy enough tosave the hassle of finding space for both and just run one or the other. After all its not like we have any easy ways to get them into play (zombie Rector pls WoTC).

Agreed. It's one or the other.

And yes, creatures that tutor are wonderful. A few instant/sorcery tutors are needed, in my view, but cool abilities like Academy Rector are groovy. Obviously, we could run Rector, but it's a glaring flavor fail. Enlightened Tutor is also an option, but why not just run a B tutor? Especially since Enlightened is roughly at the same price level. The bigger issue there is I still feel I would want to tutor for Living Death or a sweeper or Cyclonic Rift more often than I would for one of the enchantments.

We have one such creature, but five is a load of mana; it may very well be worth it, but it's a bunch and it would probably prevent one from casting the tutored card too often for my taste.

The enchantments are awesome cards and they can be back-breaking, but it's the reanimation spells that seem to be the strength of the deck. That strength is complemented with sweepers and sac abilities. I wouldn't characterize the enchantments as "win-more" - as if winning more was a bad thing LOL - but they probably aren't essential with the possible exception of Tombstone Stairwell and even that can sometimes be bad.

[toctheyounger]

I think Storm/Necro is an either/or myself. I don't run Storm because I don't like the CMC, but it does give you a whole lot of combo lines and whatnot. I think either one can win you the game without the other so its probably easy enough tosave the hassle of finding space for both and just run one or the other. After all its not like we have any easy ways to get them into play (zombie Rector pls WoTC).

Agreed. It's one or the other.

And yes, creatures that tutor are wonderful. A few instant/sorcery tutors are needed, in my view, but cool abilities like Academy Rector are groovy. Obviously, we could run Rector, but it's a glaring flavor fail. Enlightened Tutor is also an option, but why not just run a B tutor? Especially since Enlightened is roughly at the same price level. The bigger issue there is I still feel I would want to tutor for Living Death or a sweeper or Cyclonic Rift more often than I would for one of the enchantments.

We have one such creature, but five is a load of mana; it may very well be worth it, but it's a bunch and it would probably prevent one from casting the tutored card too often for my taste.

The enchantments are awesome cards and they can be back-breaking, but it's the reanimation spells that see, to be the strength of the deck. That strength is complemented with sweepers and sac abilities. I wouldn't characterize the enchantments as "win-more" - as if winning more was a bad thing LOL - but they probably aren't essential with the possible exception of Tombstone Stairwell and even that can sometime be bad.

Five is a lot, but Sidisi has been pretty solid for me. Just catching it reabimator spells is serious value, and animating with Animate Dead or Apprentice Necromancer basically makes it a Demonic. I've not found too much stagnation in terms of picking the same things either. In a way theres almost no need to, because we have the filtering and most of our zombies just don't matter more than another.

[yeti1069]

I think I'd give up Undead Warchief than Death Baron. The deathtouch has been relevant so often, I can't imagine ditching it. I get wanting to make room for the new flashy stuff, and I've done some of the same, but I'd have a hard time giving up some many lords. The deck wants to be swinging every turn, starting turn 3 or 4, and while it's generally not too fussed about losing bodies to combat swaps, being able to keep some around helps keep the wheels turning. Lords help with that, especially the Baron. Not to mention that simply swinging with a pumped army can be a wincon, both in just punching through life totals, and in the case of softening them up for a moderately sized drain effect/turn. Shepherd of Rot is pretty good, but gets MUCH better if everyone else is at a lower life total than you are, and it's easier for that to be the case when you're hitting them a lot, and when you're triggering Varina with more bodies for more life.

As for the discussion on counterspells, I do agree that Fierce Guardianship would often be awkward, at least the way I play, where I'm most concerned with using a counter to protect a mass reanimate (often with Varina in the yard). The ability to stop someone else's big turn while Varina is out is nice, but the latter use is also why I haven't looked at Pact of Negation here. Yeah, if you're only really using it to cover YOUR winning turn, it's fantastic, but I'm often using a counter to stop someone else from winning, and I don't really want to lose a turn doing that.

[toctheyounger]

I think I'd give up Undead Warchief than Death Baron. The deathtouch has been relevant so often, I can't imagine ditching it. I get wanting to make room for the new flashy stuff, and I've done some of the same, but I'd have a hard time giving up some many lords. The deck wants to be swinging every turn, starting turn 3 or 4, and while it's generally not too fussed about losing bodies to combat swaps, being able to keep some around helps keep the wheels turning. Lords help with that, especially the Baron. Not to mention that simply swinging with a pumped army can be a wincon, both in just punching through life totals, and in the case of softening them up for a moderately sized drain effect/turn. Shepherd of Rot is pretty good, but gets MUCH better if everyone else is at a lower life total than you are, and it's easier for that to be the case when you're hitting them a lot, and when you're triggering Varina with more bodies for more life.

As for the discussion on counterspells, I do agree that Fierce Guardianship would often be awkward, at least the way I play, where I'm most concerned with using a counter to protect a mass reanimate (often with Varina in the yard). The ability to stop someone else's big turn while Varina is out is nice, but the latter use is also why I haven't looked at Pact of Negation here. Yeah, if you're only really using it to cover YOUR winning turn, it's fantastic, but I'm often using a counter to stop someone else from winning, and I don't really want to lose a turn doing that.

These sentiments are all very relatable. I think of the two Baron is the one I was more leery about dropping, purely because deathtouch is a valid combat ability. Rationally, it doesn't matter in game outcomes a ton but people tend to block like it does, meaning they're more likely to block with their face. I actually really like picking the person I think is going to be most precious about it and exploiting this. It usually works quite well. So yeah I'd keep the Baron, I just can't see anything else I really want to lose.

Fierce, yeah...I haven't had a huge amount of attention paid to my commander of late, but I do the same with mass reanimation. It might be a bad proposition entirely. It might not, but the stakes are very low if it doesn't pan out. I'd just pop Arcane back in if it doesn't work out.

[plaganegra]

Was perusing cards on the interwebbs and came across this interesting card:

Faces of the Past

Any way to break this in our deck? Think of it as an exploratory thought experiment, not a card evaluation.

If any tribe can break it I would think Zombies, Wizards, and Faeries probably are the top of that list.

But some might run a couple changelings in their deck which is funny because you can tap all other creatures by sacrificing a changeling. lol. With Haakon, you could make your opponents very unhappy...

But I am looking for more of a combo potential with the card. Any ideas?

[toctheyounger]

Was perusing cards on the interwebbs and came across this interesting card:

Faces of the Past

Any way to break this in our deck? Think of it as an exploratory thought experiment, not a card evaluation.

If any tribe can break it I would think Zombies, Wizards, and Faeries probably are the top of that list.

But some might run a couple changelings in their deck which is funny because you can tap all other creatures by sacrificing a changeling. lol. With Haakon, you could make your opponents very unhappy...

But I am looking for more of a combo potential with the card. Any ideas?

Shepherd becomes a world ender with it, but I don't think that actually goes infinite.

[Falkenbach]

Was perusing cards on the interwebbs and came across this interesting card:

Faces of the Past

Any way to break this in our deck? Think of it as an exploratory thought experiment, not a card evaluation.

If any tribe can break it I would think Zombies, Wizards, and Faeries probably are the top of that list.

But some might run a couple changelings in their deck which is funny because you can tap all other creatures by sacrificing a changeling. lol. With Haakon, you could make your opponents very unhappy...

But I am looking for more of a combo potential with the card. Any ideas?

Wow thats some interesting card i might try it out in my ur dragon changeling deck thanks for finding this😄

[pokken]

Phenax

Sac a zombie mill a billion. Would go functionally infinite with ashnods too.

[plaganegra]

Aha!!

I found what I was looking for:

Gravespawn sovereign would go infinite with a sac outlet and 6 total zombies.

Super janky but hey! Maybe there's more things to do with that enchantment. Fun to think about. Sort of like a variation on intruder alarm.

Lots of interesting interactions with this card. Back in the changeling thing. You could tap everyone's creatures and then untap all yours by saccing another zombie basically paving the way for an alpha strike.

[Eburon]

It could draw you a bunch of cards with Cryptbreaker. With Cleaver Skaab and Ashnod's Altar, it could go infinite?

[pzbw7z]

Here's a card which might be breakable in a Zombie build.

Morality Shift

I'll admit the mana cost is an issue.

[toctheyounger]

Here's a card which might be breakable in a Zombie build.

Morality Shift

I'll admit the mana cost is an issue.

Its actually been suggested before, way back a few pages. Seems great for filling the yard, I think my issue is 7 sets your yard up and THEN you still have to reanimate stuff. That said, there's altars so its not undoable.

All that said again if comboing off is the aim of the game Intuition truly is where its at i think. Ultimately you really only need 3 or 4 cards to actually go off and loop, so this seems like it might be overkill. If you're not comboing specifically though I do really like how splashy this is in some ways. It also represents a nice way of recycling your non permanent cards if you're out of removal or whatever so there's that too.

[dueba]

Hello all , i got a wilhelt precon a while back as my second commander deck and decided to build it into varina which sounded like more fun to run, so finding this super extensive thread really helped me understand her much more than anywhere else could.

Unfortunately i am unable to afford more of the expensive cards mentioned that do a lot of work in games (tombstone stairwell, kindred discovery, land tax (maybe can buy weathered wayfarer but there isnt too many viable targets in my manabase)) but my playgroup is not super competitive so it shouldnt matter too much.

Just wondering of your opinions on what i have right now and if there are any relatively budget changes/additions i could make.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/DcGhwts0WEWtMjcW3B662Q

[ChocoDude]

Taking a very cursory glance at your deck I'd recommend replacing Morbid Opportunist with Midnight Reaper to stay on-tribe. AND…the most glaring one…Varina and mass reanimation are like peanut butter and chocolate, they just go together. If you can afford a Weathered Wayfarer, DON'T start with that, buy yourself Living Death. It's THE best mass reanimation card in the deck and it doubles as a board wipe. My initial two cents.

[ChocoDude]

I would also consider dropping Prismatic Lens and Azorius Signet (since this is primarily a black deck) in favor of more 1 or 2 drop zombies. Ideally, you'll want them on the board before Varina so you can take advantage of her attack triggers. You might also consider dropping Orzhov Signet and the two Talismans for the same reasons, but since your budget is lower maybe you'll want them for ramp since you don't have Land Tax, Weather Wayfarer, and Expedition Map (which you don't really need since you're not running Nykthos, Urborg, or Phyrexian Tower).

[yeti1069]

Was perusing cards on the interwebbs and came across this interesting card:

Faces of the Past

Any way to break this in our deck? Think of it as an exploratory thought experiment, not a card evaluation.

If any tribe can break it I would think Zombies, Wizards, and Faeries probably are the top of that list.

But some might run a couple changelings in their deck which is funny because you can tap all other creatures by sacrificing a changeling. lol. With Haakon, you could make your opponents very unhappy...

But I am looking for more of a combo potential with the card. Any ideas?

Elves, man. Elves. I've played with Faces in a few different Elf decks (both 60 card and commander), and it's ridiculous. Basically the flip side to Intruder Alarm without the downside of accidentally giving someone else a combo. It's also a decent defensive spell if you have some Changelings, since it can be used to tap everything.

Here, I'd guess the big ones are:
Cleaver Skaab
Cryptbreaker
Gravespawn Sovereign as you noted
Shepherd of Rot
Then there's the jank:
Cabal Interrogator strips hands if you can make each cycle
Caged Zombie (not good) kills everyone if you can make
Cemetery Reaper exiles creatures from yards and makes tokens
Coffin Queen could be interesting depending on what's in the yards
Corpse Harvester can tutor out every Swamp and Zombie in the deck (I miss playing this guy)
Fate Stitcher is infinite mana with this if there's some way to repeatedly sac something, or just infinite recursion of Gravecrawler (but then, what DOESN'T do that?)
Helldozer can blow up lands if you can make each time
Organ Grinder doesn't require mana, just (3 x highest life total) cards in graveyard
Tomb Tyrant is basically a less good Coffin Queen, but is also a lord

[toctheyounger]

Hello all , i got a wilhelt precon a while back as my second commander deck and decided to build it into varina which sounded like more fun to run, so finding this super extensive thread really helped me understand her much more than anywhere else could.

Unfortunately i am unable to afford more of the expensive cards mentioned that do a lot of work in games (tombstone stairwell, kindred discovery, land tax (maybe can buy weathered wayfarer but there isnt too many viable targets in my manabase)) but my playgroup is not super competitive so it shouldnt matter too much.

Just wondering of your opinions on what i have right now and if there are any relatively budget changes/additions i could make.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/DcGhwts0WEWtMjcW3B662Q

Welcome, and thanks for posting! Varina is a lot of fun, I hope you manage to come up with something you like.

Looking at your list I can definitely second @ChocoDude, Living Death is a straight up auto add here. Very powerful board control that just happens to work in favor of us bleeding the table out.

As far as further budget adds go, there's a few options. Unfortunately the tribe really spiked on returning to Innistrad, so some of the really solid stuff like Gravecrawler and Noxious Ghoul might well be out of reach. Nonetheless you've got some options. With Bone Miser and Archfiend of Ifnir in your list you could totally do a pseudo wheels build; Archfiend is a shredder of board states so leaning into that is really nice, and Miser can help to fuel mass reanimation, Gray Merchant of Asphodel and such obviously being really great to lean into that. If you wanted to go down that route I think Varina could support it potentially. Ideally you'd probably want Smothering Tithe, but that ones up in price too. You could always get a little mean and add Narset, Parter of Veils to break the symmetry of your wheels and make sure you come out on top. Its a little miserable but I think as long as you're ok with it being targeted you'll still benefit and not get hated off the table. Its just a speed bump, not tire spikes. Other than that Zombie Infestation looks terrible but actually performs really well. Instant speed untapped zombies are worth it from time to time.

If you were gonna do that you could probably add stuff like Whispering Madness and Dark Deal too. Other than that I'd look at Twilight's Call, Pyrrhic Revival and such. You probably want 3 good reanimation spells to get you there.

The only other thing I'd suggest as valuable for play and semi budget is good sacrifice outlets. If you can get yourself an Ashnods or Dementia altar it'll add a lot of acceleration to your plans and really make the deck hum. They're not like cheap cheap, but they're well worth the investment anyway.

[toctheyounger]

As an aside, had some gameplay in today, and got a nice strong win. Kept a hand with 2 lands, and Island and Exotic Orchard and an Expedition Map as well as Undead Augur and Carrion Feeder as the relevant stuff. Not super solid for an early start but I figured it would be a good acid test for the Map, and the game just turned out really well.

Augur was a monster right from the get go and paired nicely with Ashnods to keep my grip full. Early game my Varina was stolen, so I sacced and didn't really have the resource to cast again right away. So the draw was nice, and Ashnods helped get me into Kindred Discovery, and from there I just...had it. That card is nuts.

Without going into minutiae I stabilized really well, drew into Sevinne's Reclamation to spam the map a bit more and assembled Urborg/Coffers, one from incidental draw and the other tutored. I got to give Headless Rider a whirl too and while it was short lived the inclusion is pretty great.

Eventually I ended up assembling the 'either i die or you die' with Discovery and Tombstone Stairwell and Wayward Servant, shredded some life totals and finished off with Shepherd of Rot for 2 16 life activations once Servant got removed.

The deck felt really nice and solid today and I had control options right along the path too; they weren't really needed, but I did have them there to use as needed. So far so good!

[dueba]

Thanks everyone for the feedback and suggestions!

Taking a very cursory glance at your deck I'd recommend replacing Morbid Opportunist with Midnight Reaper to stay on-tribe. AND…the most glaring one…Varina and mass reanimation are like peanut butter and chocolate, they just go together. If you can afford a Weathered Wayfarer, DON'T start with that, buy yourself Living Death. It's THE best mass reanimation card in the deck and it doubles as a board wipe. My initial two cents.

I was a bit skeptical initially to reduce ramp since i've learnt to get more in to be able to have bigger plays ahead of curve but i assume its because of early turns being better spent on cheap zombies but ill probably still keep the orzhov signet and talismans.

However i will definetely add Living Death to my purchase list since ive come to understand the power of mass reanimation in varina over casting resulting in me cutting Rooftop Storm and a few other cards as well since i don't plan to include any combos and it being unlikely i have a lot of zombies in hand after filtering to get a lot of immediate value before it bites removal.

Welcome, and thanks for posting! Varina is a lot of fun, I hope you manage to come up with something you like.

Looking at your list I can definitely second @ChocoDude, Living Death is a straight up auto add here. Very powerful board control that just happens to work in favor of us bleeding the table out.

As far as further budget adds go, there's a few options. Unfortunately the tribe really spiked on returning to Innistrad, so some of the really solid stuff like Gravecrawler and Noxious Ghoul might well be out of reach. Nonetheless you've got some options. With Bone Miser and Archfiend of Ifnir in your list you could totally do a pseudo wheels build; Archfiend is a shredder of board states so leaning into that is really nice, and Miser can help to fuel mass reanimation, Gray Merchant of Asphodel and such obviously being really great to lean into that. If you wanted to go down that route I think Varina could support it potentially. Ideally you'd probably want Smothering Tithe, but that ones up in price too. You could always get a little mean and add Narset, Parter of Veils to break the symmetry of your wheels and make sure you come out on top. Its a little miserable but I think as long as you're ok with it being targeted you'll still benefit and not get hated off the table. Its just a speed bump, not tire spikes. Other than that Zombie Infestation looks terrible but actually performs really well. Instant speed untapped zombies are worth it from time to time.

If you were gonna do that you could probably add stuff like Whispering Madness and Dark Deal too. Other than that I'd look at Twilight's Call, Pyrrhic Revival and such. You probably want 3 good reanimation spells to get you there.

The only other thing I'd suggest as valuable for play and semi budget is good sacrifice outlets. If you can get yourself an Ashnods or Dementia altar it'll add a lot of acceleration to your plans and really make the deck hum. They're not like cheap cheap, but they're well worth the investment anyway.

Appreciate your lengthy reply and suggestions
Regarding the wheels idea for Varina, it definetely sounds very exciting and i might try it out someday but it probably needs too many modifications to lean into it properly so for now i might stick with a simple zombies/reanimator as ive always been quite invested into the tribe since i started magic.

Definetely adding Zombie Infestation though as it helps in explosive turns to push a win with miser or archfiend with excess cards and the extra few zombies can help in a pinch. Unfortunately the altars on top of living death is a bit out of reach for now so i was considering budget albeit far less optimal sacrifice outlets on creatures, So i am currently stuck between two options of Viscera Seer and Nantuko Husk /Phyrexian Ghoul and am unsure whether the B cost of seer makes it worth being off-tribe rather than a 2B zombie outlet.

[pokken]

Being a zombie is important for patriarchs bidding which is the second best reanimating spell and zombie apocalypse which is prob the third.

Hitting a sac outlet on your mass reanimation is very useful.

I didn't look at the new list in detail but lazotep chancellor is great with zombie infestation. And not bad on its own.

Wayfarer is only really playable if it can get grotto and nykthos at a minimum in my opinion.

[pzbw7z]

So tell me the truth, how many of you have secretly dreamed of adding Appetite for Brains to your list?

On a more serious note, have you considered hand hate as a tool for protecting your big spells? Most of you seem to prefer counter magic, which is probably better, especially if one can swing the situationally free ones, but generally, discard spells are cheaper to cast.

Of course, virtually all discard is sorcery speed which is relevant.

[pokken]

Counterspells are just better sadly

[yeti1069]

So tell me the truth, how many of you have secretly dreamed of adding Appetite for Brains to your list?

On a more serious note, have you considered hand hate as a tool for protecting your big spells? Most of you seem to prefer counter magic, which is probably better, especially if one can swing the situationally free ones, but generally, discard spells are cheaper to cast.

Of course, virtually all discard is sorcery speed which is relevant.

Its very difficult to have enough relevant discard for 3 opponents. Compare the efficacy of a single discard spell vs a single counter spell. And if you're going heavily into discard as a strategy for mitigating your opponents' threats, then you want to be playing a different deck entirely.