Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Nabux wrote:
2 years ago
pzbw7z wrote:
2 years ago
I would also like to shout out Vengeful Dead! It did some work for me tonight. One of the other players was on Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver and another player had one Zombie in play when I had to overload Damn.
Yeah, feels like the best card in the deck in this situation.
Anyone has experiences about Wilhelt in the 99 for varina ?
Yeah, he's a bit of a monster. Get a sac outlet in play and things get going quite quickly. In my experience hes been very good just to give a bit of mid game acceleration, and his EOT sac draw is decent in a pinch too. I don't think you ever want him on an empty board but he's otherwise pretty good.

Edit - Merry Xmas from NZ yall. Have a safe and fun holiday.
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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

I wish Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver had a W pip in his casting cost. Card draw that doesn't irritate the other players is pretty groovy. But I just can't imagine playing Zombies without Corpse Knight and Wayward Servant.

Varina's looting is arguably better, but sometimes attacking just feels bad.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

pzbw7z wrote:
2 years ago
Varina's looting is arguably better, but sometimes attacking just feels bad.
Man I always am overjoyed to be attacking lol :) I can always find someone to bash with Varina and usually find other people to eat the other zombies. And if not, they go to the bin and come back!

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Yeah there's very rarely a reason not to swing. You can self preserve, but even then usually it doesn't even matter if your stuff bites it.
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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

So I've modified my deck some to lower the curve. Overall non-land CMC is running just below 2.8 now. I like some of the ideas @pokken has run with, so I'm trying them too: more fetches, more 1 and 2-drops to trigger Varina earlier and more often, no more mana rocks, etc. However, I don't plan to go lower as I don't want to fork out for an Intuition and thus I don't plan to run that package. I've also proxied Crucible of Worlds and felt it being ho-hum in the three games I've had a chance to cast it. Each time I had managed to either get Land Tax, Tithe, simply hit my land drops, use Sevinne's Reclamation to help, or obtain one of the two sac/mana altars. Such that I didn't really want that card in my hand at that moment. I'm wondering if since my curve is a running a bit higher than Pokken's,@Reya's, or @plaganegra's that my deck is more mana hungry, so-to-speak, and thus Crucible isn't necessarily such a good choice the higher your curve is. For now, I've replaced the proxied Crucible with Ponder, which seems good enough and lowers the curve a smidge. I'm curious if any of you have had similar experiences or whether Crucible has simply been an all-smiles card each time you've played it. Thoughts?

Side note, I rather like the deck at a slightly higher CMC with a couple of the larger creatures like Noxious Ghoul and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed in there. Mikaeus recently helped me drain the table with a sac outlet and a Wayward Servant on the table. It was glorious!! I often don't cast him, opting to pitch him for mass reanimation purposes mostly.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
Such that I didn't really want that card in my hand at that moment. I'm wondering if since my curve is a running a bit higher than Pokken's,@Reya's, or @plaganegra's that my deck is more mana hungry, so-to-speak, and thus Crucible isn't necessarily
Crucible has two main uses, in Intuition packages and as an additional effect to let you chuck lands for Varina. If you're playing lands from your yard, you can always toss all your lands and then Varina's ability is always +1 card.

I don't know that I would play it without Intuition? It might wind up cuttable to me, although I really enjoy the interaction with Field of the Dead (of always making 2 zombies per turn cycle).

I'm usually happy to see it but not jumping for joy most of the time.

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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
Such that I didn't really want that card in my hand at that moment. I'm wondering if since my curve is a running a bit higher than Pokken's,@Reya's, or @plaganegra's that my deck is more mana hungry, so-to-speak, and thus Crucible isn't necessarily
Crucible has two main uses, in Intuition packages and as an additional effect to let you chuck lands for Varina. If you're playing lands from your yard, you can always toss all your lands and then Varina's ability is always +1 card.

I don't know that I would play it without Intuition? It might wind up cuttable to me, although I really enjoy the interaction with Field of the Dead (of always making 2 zombies per turn cycle).

I'm usually happy to see it but not jumping for joy most of the time.
Thanks Pokken. I suspected it was part of the Intuition package. As for chucking all lands into the yard to then play out with Crucible, I understood that line of play, but simply opted to always hold one land in hand for the next turn's drop IF needed (not as much late game). Having Land Tax 2 of the 3 games AND LT not getting blown up, mostly negated my need for Crucible in them. I ended up pitching it twice. Honestly though, my bias against forking out $$$ for Crucible tilted the scales away from it for me after that, so it may not have gotten a completely fair trial.

Also, thanks for the reminder. I don't have a Field of the Dead, but I really should try running it since I've now got seven fetches in the deck. Maybe I'll proxy it up tonight (color laser-printed with a 2.45" width and autoscaled height). I simply forgot about it.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
Also, thanks for the reminder. I don't have a Field of the Dead, but I really should try running it since I've now got seven fetches in the deck. Maybe I'll proxy it up tonight (color laser-printed with a 2.45" width and autoscaled height). I simply forgot about it.
It has been very good for me, just reliably making 2 zombies a turn is exceptional and every so often we get a big swarm off of Sevinne's Reclamation or Cosmic Intervention.

I'm ready for Sun Titanzombie :P

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
Also, thanks for the reminder. I don't have a Field of the Dead, but I really should try running it since I've now got seven fetches in the deck. Maybe I'll proxy it up tonight (color laser-printed with a 2.45" width and autoscaled height). I simply forgot about it.
It has been very good for me, just reliably making 2 zombies a turn is exceptional and every so often we get a big swarm off of Sevinne's Reclamation or Cosmic Intervention.

I'm ready for Sun Titanzombie :P
This is probably obvious, but how are you getting two zombies per turn with a land drop from crucible?

Also what is your intuition pile with crucible? It is not something I ever considered and I am curious!
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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

So, those of you that run Field of the Dead, how enamored of it are you? So far, I've been underwhelmed. Drawing it early feels bad and I really seriously considered cutting it when I added Unholy Grotto but I actually dropped an artifact and went up a land instead.

Do you purposely limit the basics to ensure maximum different lands? Or just hope for the best? :)

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Fetch plus crack is two zombies :).

The intuition piles with crucible are sevinnes crucible field (sets you up for endgame of fielding), or crucible and two lands in a pinch (it's not the best but it can get you out of some jams especially if they don't know which land you want).

Crucible grotto Gary is my other go to package (they are forced to give you either the guy you want or grotto where you can put it on top or crucible then you play grotto.

Of course intuition should usually be used for gravecrawler reclamation altar. But sometimes they have an ouphe or similar.

Bottom line intuition is insane but crucible has some utility there in slow games.


Re field - it's been good for me. A nice way to get endgame zombies without needing to spend a ton of mana. I run a mix of snow basics to make it work.

It's cuttable. Depends on your meta.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

I'll say that I've been glad to have Crucible since I added it. We're going to be discarding cards, and being able to chuck something we don't care much about AND know we can still play it is pretty valuable.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

pzbw7z wrote:
2 years ago
So, those of you that run Field of the Dead, how enamored of it are you? So far, I've been underwhelmed. Drawing it early feels bad and I really seriously considered cutting it when I added Unholy Grotto but I actually dropped an artifact and went up a land instead.

Do you purposely limit the basics to ensure maximum different lands? Or just hope for the best? :)
Field can work in virtually any deck. Up until recently I had it in a relatively budget mono green build. Once you've got your utility lands you blend with snows and you're pretty much good. Anything upward of mono color and it only gets easier, albeit more expensive.

The reason I don't run it here is lack of fetches. The tempo loss of entering tapped and me not having that second land ETB per turn makes its value fairly questionable over color fixing. But I think once you've gone down the path of land base efficiency you can mitigate the downside of field that much more that it becomes insignificant, as well as really being able to make the field work really well for you.
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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Fetch plus crack is two zombies :).

The intuition piles with crucible are sevinnes crucible field (sets you up for endgame of fielding), or crucible and two lands in a pinch (it's not the best but it can get you out of some jams especially if they don't know which land you want).

Crucible grotto Gary is my other go to package (they are forced to give you either the guy you want or grotto where you can put it on top or crucible then you play grotto.

Of course intuition should usually be used for gravecrawler reclamation altar. But sometimes they have an ouphe or similar.

Bottom line intuition is insane but crucible has some utility there in slow games.


Re field - it's been good for me. A nice way to get endgame zombies without needing to spend a ton of mana. I run a mix of snow basics to make it work.

It's cuttable. Depends on your meta.
See I told ya it was obvious! lol

Now - why would you need crucible in that pile you put together? If you have sevinne's you don't need the crucible, it's just cheaper. A better Pile would probably be sevinnes and two utility lands/things right? Sevinne's does almost everything that crucible does in the deck as far as I can tell but it is even more versatile. I don't really see the need on doubling up on that sort of effect? Maybe I am missing another obvious thing... I do see the value crucible provides letting you pitch all of your lands and the late game with field though.

However, I do feel that field is really necessary in the deck as well. I just feel like there are much better colorless lands to run. It is definitely a big flavor win so I am all for that!
Zombies ate my brains.
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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
pzbw7z wrote:
2 years ago
So, those of you that run Field of the Dead, how enamored of it are you? So far, I've been underwhelmed. Drawing it early feels bad and I really seriously considered cutting it when I added Unholy Grotto but I actually dropped an artifact and went up a land instead.

Do you purposely limit the basics to ensure maximum different lands? Or just hope for the best? :)
Field can work in virtually any deck. Up until recently I had it in a relatively budget mono green build. Once you've got your utility lands you blend with snows and you're pretty much good. Anything upward of mono color and it only gets easier, albeit more expensive.

The reason I don't run it here is lack of fetches. The tempo loss of entering tapped and me not having that second land ETB per turn makes its value fairly questionable over color fixing. But I think once you've gone down the path of land base efficiency you can mitigate the downside of field that much more that it becomes insignificant, as well as really being able to make the field work really well for you.
Yes, I think fetches are key. Two Zombies per turn is pretty tasty. Crucible of Worlds does seem attractive in this light. Sadly, I sold my copies.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

pzbw7z wrote:
2 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
pzbw7z wrote:
2 years ago
So, those of you that run Field of the Dead, how enamored of it are you? So far, I've been underwhelmed. Drawing it early feels bad and I really seriously considered cutting it when I added Unholy Grotto but I actually dropped an artifact and went up a land instead.

Do you purposely limit the basics to ensure maximum different lands? Or just hope for the best? :)
Field can work in virtually any deck. Up until recently I had it in a relatively budget mono green build. Once you've got your utility lands you blend with snows and you're pretty much good. Anything upward of mono color and it only gets easier, albeit more expensive.

The reason I don't run it here is lack of fetches. The tempo loss of entering tapped and me not having that second land ETB per turn makes its value fairly questionable over color fixing. But I think once you've gone down the path of land base efficiency you can mitigate the downside of field that much more that it becomes insignificant, as well as really being able to make the field work really well for you.
Yes, I think fetches are key. Two Zombies per turn is pretty tasty. Crucible of Worlds does seem attractive in this light. Sadly, I sold my copies.
I don't have a spare Crucible myself. It's a moot point either way, I don't have any of the allied fetches that would color match this deck, and I can't bring myself to run the off colors even if I had them. Fetches are such a massive expense.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Re
plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
Now - why would you need crucible in that pile you put together? If you have sevinne's you don't need the crucible, it's just cheaper. A better Pile would probably be sevinnes and two utility lands/things right? Sevinne's does almost everything that crucible does in the deck as far as I can tell but it is even more versatile.
The combination pile, assuming you already have a fetch in bin (which with my like 9+ fetch layout is very likely) lets you keep triggering field forever and puts you +1 card every turn - think of it as Phyrexian Arena that doesn't cost life and you won't be far off :)

Most of the time, some Sevinne's Reclamation package is the best thing to be doing with Intuition, or a Dread Return package in a more top heavy deck.

Intuition packages part of the reason to run it, it's a great card on its own too.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

@pokken that makes sense!

Curious. What would be your favorite dread return packages with intuition?
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
@pokken that makes sense!

Curious. What would be your favorite dread return packages with intuition?
Contingent on me having a sac outlet (which is very likely), i'd primarily go for the Double Gary Maneuver Gray Merchant of Asphodel + Repository Skaab + Dread Return.

But my main reason for playing Dread Return is a way to free win if I engage in one of my infinite discard combos.

In a normal Varina deck with actually good creatures, I'd probably err on the side of just playing Dread Return + any two giant fatties most of the time -- you varina the fatties, make zombies and sac them to put whatever giant creautre you want out. Because of Varina giving you a discard outlet and tokenmaking on the same card, return is pretty great.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
@pokken that makes sense!

Curious. What would be your favorite dread return packages with intuition?
Contingent on me having a sac outlet (which is very likely), i'd primarily go for the Double Gary Maneuver Gray Merchant of Asphodel + Repository Skaab + Dread Return.

But my main reason for playing Dread Return is a way to free win if I engage in one of my infinite discard combos.

In a normal Varina deck with actually good creatures, I'd probably err on the side of just playing Dread Return + any two giant fatties most of the time -- you varina the fatties, make zombies and sac them to put whatever giant creautre you want out. Because of Varina giving you a discard outlet and tokenmaking on the same card, return is pretty great.
Makes me wonder how far the deck can be pushed with GY tutors if one wanted to. It seems like you could tutor up so many things to win at any given time if you really wanted to pilot the deck that way.

A card to consider for your intuition piles could be Sedraxis Alchemist. it is a way to remove anything on a relevant zombie-body. Could fix a lot of niche situations in combination with intuition and dread return. For example it could just be a third removal spell for the problem permanent, or can be used in a more creative pile with sevinne's rec or dread return.
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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

Collector ouphe stopping your combo?

Intuition pile:

Sevinnes
Sedraxis alchemist
Phyrexian altar

Lol
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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

Does anyone have any regard for Rite of Oblivion?


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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

Obviously, Varina lists have access to the best tutors - the B ones - but still, I think there's a case to be made for Mystical Tutor. Not getting Gray Merchant of Asphodel is big, but otherwise, I think most of the time I'd use a tutor it would be for an instant or sorcery. That being the case, I can see playing Mystie as the third or fourth tutor.

Many of you are on record against tutors at all and I respect that. I strongly disagree with it, but to each his own. I'm running two, and I want to increase that. I don't think I want to shell out for Vampiric Tutor and Diabolic Intent is more than I want pay as well. Between Varina and Prosper, I've got four different B tutors and, if I could overcome my anxiety of proxing, that would be plenty - maybe one too many.

So, what say you of Mystic Tutor's value relative to the B tutors, such as the following:
etc.

Sidisi, Undead Vizier is an option but the 5-CMC won't often leave the opportunity of using the target card and that dampens the whole point, in my view.

Anyway, feel free to tell me how absurd this whole post is. :)

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

pzbw7z wrote:
2 years ago
Obviously, Varina lists have access to the best tutors - the B ones - but still, I think there's a case to be made for Mystical Tutor. Not getting Gray Merchant of Asphodel is big, but otherwise, I think most of the time I'd use a tutor it would be for an instant or sorcery. That being the case, I can see playing Mystie as the third or fourth tutor.

Many of you are on record against tutors at all and I respect that. I strongly disagree with it, but to each his own. I'm running two, and I want to increase that. I don't think I want to shell out for Vampiric Tutor and Diabolic Intent is more than I want pay as well. Between Varina and Prosper, I've got four different B tutors and, if I could overcome my anxiety of proxing, that would be plenty - maybe one too many.

So, what say you of Mystic Tutor's value relative to the B tutors, such as the following:
etc.

Sidisi, Undead Vizier is an option but the 5-CMC won't often leave the opportunity of using the target card and that dampens the whole point, in my view.

Anyway, feel free to tell me how absurd this whole post is. :)
I don't think your post is absurd at all. I think tutors are fantastic, I just don't feel like I need them in my playgroup which is really a subjective decision to control power level of the deck. I said a few posts back it would be interesting to see a finely tuned version with all of the tutors and combos actually.

I think mystical tutor is very playable in the deck if one of your main win conditions is a mass reanimate spell, especially. Also it is good to be able to go and grab a removal spell you might need, sevinne's rec, or other utility spell as well. The fact that you can draw the card right away with a varina trigger makes tutors like vampiric tutor and mystical tutor better than normal too. Definitely a highly playable card.

This would be my hierarchy of tutors for Varina:
I could see myself running all of those in a high power environment and would never play diabolic tutor or beseech the queen, personally. I dont see Varina ever being "cedh viable" because varina doesnt really contribute anything at all in that environment but she could exist just below that (power level 8ish on the 1-10 scale) if it were finely tuned to combo out.

Just a comment in general about evaluating cards in this thread and many others on this forum - context is really missing from a lot of discussion. The main context being what you expect to get out of a deck and a game of EDH. So take any card evaluation you read on the forum with a very large grain of salt because everyone's context is completely different and rarely transparent. It is just the nature of the beast I think... it would be tiring to always spell that out in every single post.

I find it best to just say "playable" or not, but even that is not without context lol. Mystical tutor is very playable.
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