Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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Nimbaway
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Post by Nimbaway » 3 years ago

Finding slots for new cards will definitely be somewhat challenging, but that is usually the case with most decks.

Foretell looks definitely like an interesting ability, but might part depend on how many cards with Foretell you run. Or it might become a meme like Willbender being the most likely morph to be used. And while it does telegraph some cards, it still puts opponents in awkward positions. Do they keep up the counter for that exiled spell, the other spell we're casting or risk not using that mana at all? It certainly will force their hand in some way and that might stop them from advancing their own game plan.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Nimbaway wrote:
3 years ago
Finding slots for new cards will definitely be somewhat challenging, but that is usually the case with most decks.

Foretell looks definitely like an interesting ability, but might part depend on how many cards with Foretell you run. Or it might become a meme like Willbender being the most likely morph to be used. And while it does telegraph some cards, it still puts opponents in awkward positions. Do they keep up the counter for that exiled spell, the other spell we're casting or risk not using that mana at all? It certainly will force their hand in some way and that might stop them from advancing their own game plan.
Yeah, I mean it's going to be a learning curve in all fairness. It could end up being awful, or it could be brilliantly helpful. You just can't tell ahead of time. There's some good stuff with the mechanic, so I'm excited to dip my toes at some point and see how it plays out, here and elsewhere.
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Post by Nimbaway » 3 years ago

With all the cards being spoiled now, I'm pretty much looking at three cards from Kaldheim to (test) run in Varina.

- Rise of the Dread Marn
- Cosmic Intervention
- Haunting Voyage

Most of it is helping to protect the deck and prevent it from suffering too much in the face of boardwipes. Rise and Cosmic together makes a boardwipe just utterly punishing, so looking forward to try out those.

Haunting Voyage I've become slightly less high on since it was revealed. In most cases it's simply a bad draw as you are not looking to play it for the effect of just returning two creatures. With Foretell you can't put it in exile and cast it on the same turn, so using it takes more caution due to it being essentially a turn delayed. Then there is the casting cost, while it is a one sided mass reanimate I'm ranking it below Zombie Apocalypse and that's a card I'm not running at the moment. Comparing it to Living Death and/or Patriarch's Bidding I think the lower mana cost might just be better than not having their downsides.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Kaldheim Set Review




Well I guess its time to weigh in myself with some thoughts here. There's some neat stuff in the set, so I think there's options for Varina in a variety of ways; foretell is interesting purely because it allows us to bypass Varina's looting and set aside stuff we can bank for later, which I quite like for instants and sorceries.

Artifacts/Colorless/Lands

  • Bloodline Pretender - Kind of neat, and by its nature a zombie, but nothing stellar.
  • Maskwood Nexus - I really like this card and I think it'll bust something wide open, but it doesn't do a ton here.
  • Pyre of Heroes - We've been through this one already - it's fine, but without a Rings of Brighthearth or a reliable untapping synergy it's just too slow - aside from that, we don't have any one creature thats strong enough to dominate the board all on its own, and that's where Birthing Pod effects shine - chaining into a Protean Hulk or an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite or similar.
  • Gates of Istfell - Decent effect, but quite costly to activate, so probably a pass for me.
  • Great Hall of Starnheim - I'd me happier with a changeling, but that wouldn't make sense for lore, so I get it. Probably a pass.
  • Port of Karfell - I'll probably give this a go, in all honesty. It's very expensive, but it's also instant speed, and I don't have a dearth of spot reanimation, so baking that into the lands seems reasonable.
  • Faceless Haven - It's a zombie innately and it curves into Varina. I think if it tapped for colour, it'd be a slam dunk. As is, it's an option that I'm reluctant to commit to as a definite. Vigilance is nice utility though, and a 4/3 for 3 is decent stats.
  • Glacial Floodplain/Ice Tunnel Snowfield Sinkhole - Yes, they ETB tapped. I still really like them and for the cost, I think they're well worth blending in.



White


Blue

  • Draugr Thought-Thief - Low enough on the curve to consider, not quite strong enough to be a lock. I guess if you're able to blink it or abuse the ETB it could be worth running.
  • Karfell Harbinger - Another low drop, another underwhelming creature. If it produced mana for anything, not just foretold cards, I'd be stoked.
  • Mystic Reflection - I think this card is going to do great things, and in a few ways it covers much of the ground that Mirrorweave does. There's a case for it here, and I like that it can void an opponent's Craterhoof Behemoth or what have you as well as causing blowouts.
  • Reflections of Littjara - I like the effect a lot, I just wish it cost a little less.

Black


  • Blood on the Snow - I like it a lot for its modal qualities, and the chance to be better off than the rest of the table. Perhaps I need to switch to a snow base for basic lands?
  • Draugr Necromancer - Again, heavy reliance on the snow mechanic. I actually really like the effect, and even if you never cast anything its powerful one-sided grave hate, which is quite nice for our mass reanimation. I might look over the list and see what I could switch out for this.
  • Grim Draugr - Cheap to cast, but nothing special either.
  • Haunting Voyage - I agree with @Nimbaway here. It's neat, but I don't think it really fits amazingly. Its expensive and it telegraphs fairly significantly.
  • Jarl of the Forsaken - Close but no cigar. Just a bit too conditional to be worth it.
  • Karfell Kennel-Master - Not without its uses, but probably a bit costly. It'll do fine in sealed and limited formats, but I don't think it's going to go well here.
  • Priest of the Haunted Edge - Pretty decent and nicely costed. Also unavoidable removal. Could be worth the punt, again you'd have to go all-snow lands though.
  • Rise of the Dread Marn - We've talked this over already, and I think this is good, but not as good as Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant. Given that I've not yet tested Nev, I'm going to do so before I commit to this one.

Multicolored


  • Narfi, Betrayer King A bit pricey to be surefire good. Nice that it reanimates, but I don't really know that it's worth the effort.
And that's about all she wrote. A really nice, flavourful set, and I think there's some sleeper cards about that will be good value. There's a lot of possible inclusions for Varina this time around, but nothing that's a definite lock. I'm pretty keen to try out some foretell nonetheless, and it seems like if we committed to snow basics there's a chance it could open up a few new tricks and avenues for advantage.

Feel free to let me know if I missed anything good!
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Post by Nimbaway » 3 years ago

I'll add the aforementioned Cosmic Intervention as a card I'm going to be trying. Which is a new addition released in the Kaldheim Commander decks, which lets you bring back your board after a wipe.

Port of Karfell seems nice but I just don't like adding tapped lands to the deck. Search for Glory I might consider and potentially switch to snow-covered lands while at it for extra benefit.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Nimbaway wrote:
3 years ago
I'll add the aforementioned Cosmic Intervention as a card I'm going to be trying. Which is a new addition released in the Kaldheim Commander decks, which lets you bring back your board after a wipe.
Ýeah, I did consider it as an option, and it is. What turns me off of it is that 'instead' nerfs any death triggers we might want to spam, and that's a bit rough.
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Post by Nimbaway » 3 years ago

If they wipe the board then generally the board state isn't important enough to worry about dying triggers right away, they are not going to wipe if the damage kills them. I can see it being questionable though on whether its worth it, but I feel that the upside might be there enough to at least test it out.

Also going to note that Priest of the Haunted Edge is in my opinion a trap card to run, I've played around with Dead of Winter in the past and I always felt like I didn't have enough snow lands around to use it as I wanted.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Nimbaway wrote:
3 years ago
If they wipe the board then generally the board state isn't important enough to worry about dying triggers right away, they are not going to wipe if the damage kills them. I can see it being questionable though on whether its worth it, but I feel that the upside might be there enough to at least test it out.

Also going to note that Priest of the Haunted Edge is in my opinion a trap card to run, I've played around with Dead of Winter in the past and I always felt like I didn't have enough snow lands around to use it as I wanted.
Yeah I guess I just feel like Cosmic Intervention kind of does one thing, and that's it. Honestly if it came down to one thing that does this, I'd go for Glorious Protector ahead of this, purely because it has further applications as a reanimation target. Part of it I think is me being reluctant to hold mana open for this too with things being as lean as they can be with this deck.

Totally get that about Priest of the Haunted Edge. Frankly I think snow is going to be tough to work in, really. There's not a lot of basic lands slots in the deck, and the less there are the less worth it it is to replace them all with snow. I'm also anticipating it being a relatively expensive endeavour to do so, too, for what its worth. Most basics from a sealed box you'll just take to your LGS for prereleases and what not, but this time they're going to be in demand. Even more so with the Modern Horizons full arts. I don't think I want to do it just to make a couple of relatively conditional cards work a little better. Search for Glory is probably the only thing really worth trading basics for snow basics for, and even then probably 1 or 2 will suffice. Mixing snows and basics also opens up the question of Field of the Dead, and while I still think it's a no from me for the tempo loss and c production, the more the list blends the closer to reasonable value it gets.

In other news, I was going through the set again for bits and pieces for my Bruna primer, and came across Goldvein Pick. It's super cheap and cheap to equip, and rewards a low curve with evasion, which this deck very much has. It's no Sword of the Animist, but with things like Relentless Dead, Lord of the Accursed and Zombie Master I can pretty reliably connect and get treasure for it. And I'm going to be swinging anyway. I think it might be worth trying it out at some point.
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Post by LEH » 3 years ago

I'm surprised to not have seen more talk of Pact of the Serpent from the Kaldheim "Elvish Empire" Commander deck. It feels like a decent fit in most Tribal decks that can run it and seems really good with Varina.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

LEH wrote:
3 years ago
I'm surprised to not have seen more talk of Pact of the Serpent from the Kaldheim "Elvish Empire" Commander deck. It feels like a decent fit in most Tribal decks that can run it and seems really good with Varina.
Yeah not gonna lie I did sort of miss this one. A cheaper Minions' Murmurs that can target opponents is pretty nice. The one limiting factor for me is it being a noncreature. Creatures, I can recur. Instants and sorceries, I get one use and then they're chaff.

Don't get me wrong though, it's pretty great and pretty well-costed. I could totally see it doing really well and I couldn't fault anyone for running it. It's just that given the choice between it and Graveborn Muse I'd still probably prefer the muse for my own build. Granted, the muse is a slower payoff, it's just that if for whatever reason it gets taken out I've got plenty of ways to get it back.

As an aside, apologies for the radio silence team; I picked up some bits and pieces from the LGS recently, but between the shop owner and myself we missed a couple of cards that are specifically treats for Varina - so given dad time heavily outweighs game time at the moment, I'd rather wait till I can get through again and do a single deck amendment than come back to it at a later time. I'd prefer to weigh it up all at once and make sure the cuts are balanced and reasonable than rush it and take something out I really ought not to.

Once I've done that I'm really looking forward to getting some actual game time in; work has been nuts - a small team of 4-5 people all taking leave sequentially since Christmas has been a real grind, and we just went back into a temporary covid lockdown too, which has meant massive workloads again. Fingers crossed, from next week on I should be a bit more free to actually have a life, and maybe, just maybe, get a game in.

In the meantime if you guys have had any gameplay feel free to share your experiences and thoughts about inclusions for Varina!
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Post by Nimbaway » 3 years ago

The thing I've ran into is that cards like Pact of the Serpent can be nice, the life loss is certainly something not to ignore. With some form of board presence I find myself not wanting to cast something like this at all, I have even died to Graveborn Muse because people made sure it remained on the board as they noticed how much it impacted me. It's why I am considering cutting it from my list with my Kaldheim update, it's just that lockdown isn't letting me play much lately and aside from acquiring some cards I've yet to go through some decks to make the changes.

Either way, Pact of the Serpent wasn't really on my list of cards to include, as I'd be more inclined to run Distant Melody instead, which is currently not making the cut. Though am currently in a spot where I'm certainly having to evaluate my card draw in the deck.

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Post by LEH » 3 years ago

That's fair. I find that, as long as I'm not too trigger happy with Shepherd of Rot, I'm usually at a reasonable life total that drawing the cards is probably worth the life cost. Also, with Varina out, it kind of pays for itself.

I'm definitely going to be trying the card out, although, I certainly won't be removing Graveborn Muse for it. I was thinking of it more as additional draw rather than replacement card draw. I'm also thinking that: "kill an opponent by making them draw cards with it" would make for a fun "mini-achievement".

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Yeah so I guess the other side of the card (and in fairness it applies to Muse, too) is that neither really do a ton when the chips are down. Muse will bare minimum play Phyrexian Arena, which is fine but not spectacular, but Pact of the Serpent has the potential to whiff entirely if it's all you're relying on for draw (not that that was suggested as a strategy, more meaning if it's all that's in your hand).

Generally I think Varina does enough to be keep a hand pretty workable, and I think my preference in general is for Windfall variants - they'll always take you to the top of the class, and the discard can really hurt opponents from time to time.

Personally I'm nor overly worried about the life loss, especially as a one-off thing with Pact. I've never had Muse become an issue, but I'm well aware it could become so. Sacrifice outlets are important, I guess. Even just blindly swinging with Varina and whatever horde you can keep up turn to turn actually does quite well for keeping my life total pretty well close to 40, if not above. I think the cases where Pact would actually bleed you out you're probably in a place where you have every chance of winning the game anyway if your presence is that large, so that's not a huge issue for me. It's more that if that isn't the case, say post wipe or in a tough grindy game, neither of these cards is the right play.

Ultimately for me what that boils down to is that I probably don't need a reiteration of Muse's effect on another card. I could see running one or the other (probably in favour of Pact in a slightly speedier meta), but not both.
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Post by blinx28 » 3 years ago

Long time yall!

Been focusing on other decks, but curious on this Windfall topic....are folks running Whispering Madness and Forgotten Creation? I have other traditional draw spells, but thinking for the yard abuse these might be stronger options?

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

blinx28 wrote:
3 years ago
Long time yall!

Been focusing on other decks, but curious on this Windfall topic....are folks running Whispering Madness and Forgotten Creation? I have other traditional draw spells, but thinking for the yard abuse these might be stronger options?
If one wants to go more into Windfall effects, I think Whispering Madness is a reasonable add as well. 1 mana more which allows for the possibility of doing it a few times. Even if you don't have anything to Encode it onto, you still Windfalled for just 1 mana more.

Ancient Creation on the other hand seems ok I guess. It makes a whole bunch of sequencing options awkward. Granted, it is a may, but I would prefer to have more control over when it happens beyond just at the beginning of the upkeep or not at all. That is, let me use some cards first and then discard to see what happens. Having only that one moment in time, even if it is every turn, doesn't seem ideal.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

blinx28 wrote:
3 years ago
Long time yall!

Been focusing on other decks, but curious on this Windfall topic....are folks running Whispering Madness and Forgotten Creation? I have other traditional draw spells, but thinking for the yard abuse these might be stronger options?
Welcome back :)
WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
blinx28 wrote:
3 years ago
Long time yall!

Been focusing on other decks, but curious on this Windfall topic....are folks running Whispering Madness and Forgotten Creation? I have other traditional draw spells, but thinking for the yard abuse these might be stronger options?
If one wants to go more into Windfall effects, I think Whispering Madness is a reasonable add as well. 1 mana more which allows for the possibility of doing it a few times. Even if you don't have anything to Encode it onto, you still Windfalled for just 1 mana more.

Ancient on the other hand seems ok I guess. It makes a whole bunch of sequencing options awkward. Granted, it is a may, but I would prefer to have more control over when it happens beyond just at the beginning of the upkeep or not at all. That is, let me use some cards first and then discard to see what happens. Having only that one moment in time, even if it is every turn, doesn't seem ideal.
I've run both and cut both, and they're both fine options if you want to really head down the discard track in a big big way.

Creation I cut because it was all in; you don't get to choose and discard, you're shedding your whole hand. Even Varina we get to sculpt with somewhat, so I found it a little restrictive and I like to have control of what stays in my hand versus the yard.

Madness is really quite good, especially if you're running heavy discard tech like Archfiend of Ifnir and Bone Miser, The problem I found with it is that the moment it's ciphered, the table laser focuses on you, and more specifically the creature its encoded onto. The creature itself that usually isn't an issue for, we can reanimate easy. The Madness though, well, you've just cast Windfall for one extra and you don't get to repeat it, so it's kind of a bust.

This just sort of happened so often I decided it wasn't worth the spot anymore. For what it's worth there's also Dark Deal, Wheel and Deal and Tolarian Winds for further variants, but I think if you're delving into that many variants of the effect you're probably playing a pretty different set of cards than the fairly tribal build I've got assembled. It's probably more of a spellslinger wheel deck a la Nekusar, the Mindrazer with a whole lot of ping effects for draw and discard. And being honest, there's not many folk out there that like playing that deck.
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Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

Do you find Ancient Excavation does enough? I always feel like one of the biggest problems I have with my version of the deck is that I end up with too few cards in hand after a couple of turns, and Varina's attack trigger becomes difficult to work around when holding 1 or 2 high-impact cards I don't want to ditch. I would think almost anything that nets cards would be better than more looting. I've included Teferi's Ageless Insight, but haven't drawn it to try yet. I used to run the Archive, but I didn't love the 5 mana cost, and the second game I played it, I got milled out with some forced draw. The doubling of life gain is nice, but I don't think I've had too many games where doubling the gain would have kept me alive any longer, really. Considering bringing in Bontu for the draw on a recurable body, though I feel like the top end is a bit full. May try the Mystic Remora, and should probably find a way to bring in Smothering Tithe now that I can print up some proxies to augment my single copy.

That said, I am now a convert for Zombie Infestation. It did some MAJOR work tonight!

I also recently took out Liliana, Untouched By Death. I had game after game with her in my hand, and better stuff to play. The only time I'd really want to have her was with Rooftop Storm out (which I know you're not running), but I either never got the two of them together, or didn't have enough of a graveyard to make keeping Liliana over something else the right decision. Without Rooftop, she's 4 mana to do basically nothing, then you have to hard cast the creatures from your yard. If you're interested in that, I think Havengul Lich is much better in this deck, since he can be recurred, opens up options to steal from other people's yards, and can be used turn after turn.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
3 years ago
Do you find Ancient Excavation does enough? I always feel like one of the biggest problems I have with my version of the deck is that I end up with too few cards in hand after a couple of turns, and Varina's attack trigger becomes difficult to work around when holding 1 or 2 high-impact cards I don't want to ditch. I would think almost anything that nets cards would be better than more looting. I've included Teferi's Ageless Insight, but haven't drawn it to try yet. I used to run the Archive, but I didn't love the 5 mana cost, and the second game I played it, I got milled out with some forced draw. The doubling of life gain is nice, but I don't think I've had too many games where doubling the gain would have kept me alive any longer, really. Considering bringing in Bontu for the draw on a recurable body, though I feel like the top end is a bit full. May try the Mystic Remora, and should probably find a way to bring in Smothering Tithe now that I can print up some proxies to augment my single copy.

That said, I am now a convert for Zombie Infestation. It did some MAJOR work tonight!

I also recently took out Liliana, Untouched By Death. I had game after game with her in my hand, and better stuff to play. The only time I'd really want to have her was with Rooftop Storm out (which I know you're not running), but I either never got the two of them together, or didn't have enough of a graveyard to make keeping Liliana over something else the right decision. Without Rooftop, she's 4 mana to do basically nothing, then you have to hard cast the creatures from your yard. If you're interested in that, I think Havengul Lich is much better in this deck, since he can be recurred, opens up options to steal from other people's yards, and can be used turn after turn.
Excavation is relatively good. Its filter which is fine but not exceptional, and I'm mostly fine with it but I do know its not optimal. It mostly gets use to fix lands and dig a little deeper. Its probably worth exploring options to replace it, Fact or Fiction could be reasonable. I can recommend Bontu at any rate, he fits for many reasons. Given the aristocrat subtheme it fits to be able to sac some stuff, bleed the table a little and refill your hand. Also given its able to be reanimated and still trigger ETB it fits in that angle too.

I agree about Lili, too. Shes definitely on the chopping block for me, I'm just waiting to actually get my ass to my lgs to pick up some additions before it hits the road. Lili is fine, she just doesn't do anything she attempts to do excellently. She suffices, thats about it. I have looked at Lich in the past, but it is a very expensive option for reanimation. The option of picking up stuff from my neighbors yard is nice though.

I'm glad Infestation is working out for you too! It's always underestimated by your table and does great work setting up for reanimation and triggering discard.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Strixhaven/Commander 2021 Set Review




Well, it's back to school for us, with a new set and the commander releases for the year. I'd not really anticipated any stellar releases for Varina, but in all honesty I've not looked in depth prior to writing this. Let's dig a little deeper and see what Strixhaven brings us.

Artifacts/Colorless/Lands




White


  • Promise of Loyalty - It's fine, but it probably isn't ever going to fall entirely in your favour, so I don't know that it's worth it.

Blue

  • Commander's Insight - A very good card, great value. I think it's a bit color dense to fit here, but it could be pretty great.

Black


  • Plumb the Forbidden - This is actually pretty great. Flexible, cheap, and does things we want to do anyway, namely sacrifice creatures. Is it a lock? Well, it's a one off effect as opposed to God-Eternal Bontu, but it is a lot cheaper. It's really quite good nonetheless.
  • Professor Onyx - A very good card, but this Lili is for a spellslinger deck, and this ain't it.

Multicolored




So, a really, really short list for us this release. Nothing that's a really solid 'must-add', but that's not the end of the world. In other news I finally got to pick up some orders from my LGS, like 2 months after ordering them, so I'll actually be able to update the list shortly. Kind of exciting, it's a step closer to actually playing a game!
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Post by Nimbaway » 3 years ago

I didn't really expect to see much in Strixhaven for the deck either, it's just not the theme that goes well with Zombies. There is a few maybe's out there but I don't see myself adding any. It's been tough to get in games lately and haven't gotten to try out the changes made with Kaldheim, so just feels better to stick what I have sleeved up right now.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Nimbaway wrote:
3 years ago
I didn't really expect to see much in Strixhaven for the deck either, it's just not the theme that goes well with Zombies. There is a few maybe's out there but I don't see myself adding any. It's been tough to get in games lately and haven't gotten to try out the changes made with Kaldheim, so just feels better to stick what I have sleeved up right now.
Yep, definite agree here. I've got a few bigger changes to make in terms of Kaldheim, Commander Legends and some land base changes. There was always a possibility of stuff for the build from Strixhaven, but Silverquill kind of went in a direction that this deck isn't interested in.

I still really like Plumb the Forbidden and I might well add it at some point. Being instant speed and scaling for draw is very good, so it might be something the deck could use moving forward. It plays well into mass reanimation, Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant and our aristocrats, so it's not the worst option. Nonetheless, there's other changes to make first. If there's suboptimal spots once I'm done with upgrades I might consider it.

I thought more about Ancient Excavation too - I've got a shortlist of other cantrippy spells that could be decent replacements for it, because it probably isn't stellar in its spot. Frantic Search is top of the pile at present for being literally as cheap as it gets. The untap gives me options for color fixing, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx shenanigans and such. Other than that Notion Rain is nice, but non-instant, and Pull from Tomorrow is probably best in slot. I just don't have a copy and it's surprisingly expensive for what it is. Food for further thought for me, I'll probably speculate a little once I get a chance to pick the deck up.
Malazan Decks of the Fallen
| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

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Noir
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Post by Noir » 2 years ago

Thanks for another great set update, I agree with your assessment. Also wanted to drop by and just mentioned off-topic that I am on Midnight Tides of Malazan and loving the series so far! I knew I recognized the name Toc the Younger when I was in previous books and remembered it was because of you!

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Noir wrote:
2 years ago
Thanks for another great set update, I agree with your assessment. Also wanted to drop by and just mentioned off-topic that I am on Midnight Tides of Malazan and loving the series so far! I knew I recognized the name Toc the Younger when I was in previous books and remembered it was because of you!
Yeah the set update was very brief, there just isn't much for us. Silverquill gave me hope, but thematically it just goes in a direction this deck doesn't really need.

Nice stuff! It's a pretty amazing series, although it is love it or hate it. It's just the way it's written, Erikson doesn't serve you up any sort of overarching premise, you gotta find out what's going on for yourself. To me that's part of what makes the books so great, and it makes them so, so good rereading. Every time there's more layers of context and meaning revealed. But not everyone is into that.

Things are just getting good for you, Midnight Tides is one of my favourites in the series, and it's kind of the jumping off point for the wider story arc in many ways. Deadhouse Gates is up there too for my faves, the Chain of Dogs rips my heart out and stomps on it every time through. I sincerely hope you enjoy the rest of the books, I know it's a massive undertaking but it's so, so worth it.

Also, don't let my love of the name fool you into thinking there's any sort of bad ass happy ending for Toc. Hopefully 5 books deep you realise those are pretty rare in the world of Malaz, and Toc is no exception (no spoilers, other than to say you will see him again).
Malazan Decks of the Fallen
| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

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Noir
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Post by Noir » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
Noir wrote:
2 years ago
Thanks for another great set update, I agree with your assessment. Also wanted to drop by and just mentioned off-topic that I am on Midnight Tides of Malazan and loving the series so far! I knew I recognized the name Toc the Younger when I was in previous books and remembered it was because of you!
Yeah the set update was very brief, there just isn't much for us. Silverquill gave me hope, but thematically it just goes in a direction this deck doesn't really need.

Nice stuff! It's a pretty amazing series, although it is love it or hate it. It's just the way it's written, Erikson doesn't serve you up any sort of overarching premise, you gotta find out what's going on for yourself. To me that's part of what makes the books so great, and it makes them so, so good rereading. Every time there's more layers of context and meaning revealed. But not everyone is into that.

Things are just getting good for you, Midnight Tides is one of my favourites in the series, and it's kind of the jumping off point for the wider story arc in many ways. Deadhouse Gates is up there too for my faves, the Chain of Dogs rips my heart out and stomps on it every time through. I sincerely hope you enjoy the rest of the books, I know it's a massive undertaking but it's so, so worth it.

Also, don't let my love of the name fool you into thinking there's any sort of bad ass happy ending for Toc. Hopefully 5 books deep you realise those are pretty rare in the world of Malaz, and Toc is no exception (no spoilers, other than to say you will see him again).
It was very daunting when I first started but I am definitely addicted to it now. I think Memories of Ice is my current favorite (I absolutely loved Itkovian's arc) and I actually really liked House of Chains. I'm enjoying Midnight Tides so far taking it a little slower because of how different it is so far than the others and not many recognizable characters but overall still loving it and know it will pay off. Also I am definitely prepared for no happy ending for Toc, especially after some big things happened in Memories of Ice to some characters I was definitely not expecting.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Well, after a couple of months of stalling, being super busy and just generally not getting any time to either get to my LGS or my decks, I've finally had a chance to make some alterations! Excited to take the deck for a spin, and there's some big changes here so bear with me.


So, there's some bold moves here, and I'm sort of hoping they don't backfire. Let's run through my thinking with these.
  • Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant we've talked about - he's expensive. I feel fairly confident I have at least a couple of ways to get him into play strategically for maximum advantage, and his Disk ability is a nice political tool with instant sac outlets. We've got a few, so I can see it being a Dirty Harry tool more than anything else. Which I'm cool with.
  • Grimgrin, Corpse-Born I've got a foil copy of that looks purty so this one is partly sentimental, and I thought it would be nice to have some targeted removal rather than board wipes. He's also an instant sac outlet, you can still use him whether he's untapped or tapped. He stands the possibility of getting rather large, so there's always the possibility of OTKs, I guess. We'll see.
  • Sword of the Animist - We've talked this one over enough, and I've dropped my thoughts over on @WizardMN's post, so short of rehashing it all again, here is where my thoughts are at. I'm fully willing to admit that without actual gameplay it's all academic, but hopefully I'll get some in shortly.
  • Search for Glory - I see this as actually a pretty versatile fixer. It can get us lands, key creatures, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth , Teferi's Ageless Insight, Sword of the Animist, so it's fairly flexible. It is slow, but I'll take it nonetheless. I prefer not to venture too far into hard tutor anyway; Sidisi, Undead Vizier is about as close as I'll get.
  • Swan Song - We've already discussed this slot, too. It's superior to the original counter for having to splash less. I replaced it in another deck with Muddle the Mixture, where that's a utility tutor and can be cast from the graveyard if needed. I'm pretty alright with that, I think this change suits both decks.
  • Snowfield Sinkhole/Ice Tunnel/Port of Karfell/Sunken Ruins - Of these, I'm the least confident in the snow duals. We're already fairly slow for land drops so I'm really hoping adding these isn't overly crucial. I had to try though, being slightly more fetchable and flexible once untapped is worth the test. Port is expensive too, but I'm happy with it being a niche reanimate every now and then when I've got the drop on a board wipe or an alpha strike or whatever weird scenario I might be in. Ruins is a no-brainer, the filter lands have been really good here.
  • God-Eternal Oketra - She's been fine, but less than explosive - I have no issue with her as a card, she's just not spectacular. I think I'm happy with her not coming back in even if Grimgrin, Corpse-Born or Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant don't work (I have a Phyrexian Delver to slot in if not), as ideally we're casting mass reanimation more than hardcasting zombies, so she just doesn't fit the timeframe the deck uses.
  • Liliana, Untouched by Death - While a fine utility walker on her own, she's very much a jack of all trades, master of none. She's been one of the weaker slots in the deck for a little while, and I'm happy to replace her.
  • Ancient Excavation - It was brought up earlier, and I agree with the reasoning for it not being best in slot. I'm happy to carry on without it for now and see how I get on.
  • Counterspell - It's a great card, but it was easy to cut for being too color intensive. I regret nothing here.
  • Kindred Discovery - This is the controversial cut, and again, I've gone over some thoughts of mine in Wizard's thread. My thoughts are that it really doesn't give us the draw we need when we need it. It is disgusting, but short of almost decking me with Tombstone Stairwell I'm mostly otherwise covered for getting what I need when I need it. By the time we're casting this it's almost too much and I'd rather look at my draw being slightly lower to the ground if possible.
  • Hall of Heliod's Generosity/High Market/Exotic Orchard/Unclaimed Territory - So Hall was an easy cut. I don't think I've ever actually activated it, and I'm OK with not having that option anymore. Market doesn't produce colored mana (and I otherwise am happy with the sacrifice outlets I've got), and Orchard has no exact guarantee of the colour we need, so those were always going to be better as either basics or fixing, and Unclaimed Territory only gives us colour for zombies - well and good but what about Supreme Verdict? That one was easy to pull.
I'm cautiously happy with these, and there's a couple of other cards I do want to try to squeeze in somewhere too. I've talked about Dance of the Manse before, and I really like it for continuity. I don't know where to pull cards, but I'd like it in somewhere. Epiphany at the Drownyard is a pseudo Fact or Fiction that scales with good value for mana spent to cast that can give us a really good way to refill the hand and yard at the same time (again, this one came up from Wizard's thread) - this one would be a nice way to replace Ancient Excavation.

Thoughts? Have I made massive mistakes here? Let me know if you have thoughts.
Malazan Decks of the Fallen
| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

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