Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Yep, I think in a deck overtly looking to combo or loop casts from the yard he would be great. That isn't my deck, unfortunately. Gisa and Geralf would love him.
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Post by Nimbaway » 3 years ago

Tormod the Desecrator is pretty much a more on theme version of Desecrated Tomb , which while cute and a card I've been trying to find a place for, is just always one of those cuts because it doesn't do enough when you have no additional pieces around. Tormod has the advantage of being a creature, but I still feel that outside of a loop it just doesn't add enough. I'd probably been more interested in it if it had produced 1/1 spirit tokens with flying.

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Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

I got excited when I saw him...until I saw the "one or more" portion of his text. I had hoped he would act as some insurance against grave hate, but this is just not great.

Looping with Gravecrawler is okay, but that's 3 cards (GC + this guy + sac outlet) and reads: "pay to make a tapped 2/2 zombie token. " That's nice, but not spectacular. If the sac outlet is Phyrexian Altar, it makes infinite zombies, which can win the game, but I think there are better combos available to the deck, using better individual cards.

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Post by Nikerym » 3 years ago

If you are running Gravecrawler and altar already, i think Tormod is a nice include. Gives inf bodies and inf mana. The added value of getting 2 zombies when using varinas trigger ability is also welcome (not amazing but decent additional value). I think he is fine in the 99.

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Post by RedCheese » 3 years ago

If Tormod didn't worked like that he would be busted. He's great the weay he is as he still gives you a body whenever you use Varina's ability

Also Varinna now has her king

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

RedCheese wrote:
3 years ago
If Tormod didn't worked like that he would be busted. He's great the weay he is as he still gives you a body whenever you use Varina's ability

Also Varinna now has her king
I agree, he'd be straight up degenerate nonsense. It's just that his value as designed makes him pretty sub par.

Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant is really pretty great. I gotta be honest, I'm not 100% sure just yet how he fits into the deck and in what context. Clearly, he's a board wipe, but I'm not sure if it favours us or not to have the Disk effect in the list. It hits a lot of the deck architecture I'd prefer to have remain, but that's not the end of the world. It'll trigger aristocrats, which is nice, and gives the deck a new angle to hit them.

I think the issue is that it's going to be very hard to actually kill him. His booty is huge, so Plague Belcher can't off him, and he has protection from everything I would ordinarily use to sacrifice him. Liliana, Untouched by Death can kill him with her -2, but that's only with a full board, too. Other than that, we can obviously board wipe, but that seems to be doubling up on what he already does, which makes me wonder what the point of running him would be if we already have to spend mana to pop him anyway. There's always High Market, Phyrexian Tower, Westvale Abbey // Ormendahl, Profane Prince and such. That's about the only way I can of using his Disk effect without having to just redundantly cast a board wipe anyway.
edit - Hexproof is not shroud, I'm an idiot, never mind this.

On the plus side, he's nigh on unblockable in combat which makes for a very nice, reliable Varina trigger. And I can also see a pretty sweet angle as an instant speed Apprentice Necromancer reanimate for an EOT board wipe.

I'm pretty interested in others' thoughts on him. I want to like him, I'm just not sure it's a surefire addition. Thoughts?
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Post by Wallycaine » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
RedCheese wrote:
3 years ago
If Tormod didn't worked like that he would be busted. He's great the weay he is as he still gives you a body whenever you use Varina's ability

Also Varinna now has her king
I agree, he'd be straight up degenerate nonsense. It's just that his value as designed makes him pretty sub par.

Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant is really pretty great. I gotta be honest, I'm not 100% sure just yet how he fits into the deck and in what context. Clearly, he's a board wipe, but I'm not sure if it favours us or not to have the Disk effect in the list. It hits a lot of the deck architecture I'd prefer to have remain, but that's not the end of the world. It'll trigger aristocrats, which is nice, and gives the deck a new angle to hit them.

I think the issue is that it's going to be very hard to actually kill him. His booty is huge, so Plague Belcher can't off him, and he has protection from everything I would ordinarily use to sacrifice him. Liliana, Untouched by Death can kill him with her -2, but that's only with a full board, too. Other than that, we can obviously board wipe, but that seems to be doubling up on what he already does, which makes me wonder what the point of running him would be if we already have to spend mana to pop him anyway. There's always High Market, Phyrexian Tower, Westvale Abbey // Ormendahl, Profane Prince and such. That's about the only way I can of using his Disk effect without having to just redundantly cast a board wipe anyway.
edit - Hexproof is not shroud, I'm an idiot, never mind this.
In addition to hexproof not being shroud, I'd also point out that sac outlets rarely target anyways. Even if he had protection from artifacts or shroud, you could still sacrifice him to Phyrexian Altar and the like, because the sacrifice is a cost.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Wallycaine wrote:
3 years ago
In addition to hexproof not being shroud, I'd also point out that sac outlets rarely target anyways. Even if he had protection from artifacts or shroud, you could still sacrifice him to Phyrexian Altar and the like, because the sacrifice is a cost.
Ah yep. 'Sacrifice a creature', not 'sacrifice target creature'.
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Post by Nimbaway » 3 years ago

I'd definitely would compare Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant to the boardwipes that we are running, as it's most likely to compete for those slots.

The negatives for Nev are that it cost seven mana to wipe (six to cast, plus one for activation) , its heavily depending on whether or not you have a sacrifice outlet and it's not going to be selective to what you are going to destroy with it.

The positives are that you can pop him at instant speed (if you have a sac outlet), so opponents aren't the first to rebuild after you wipe the board. And Nev doesn't require double white mana to cast, which is relevant for those worrying about double mana pips in casting costs. Along with that he is still a creature so never an entirely dead card in your hand and can be brought back through out mass reanimates as well.

The token generation part of Nev I'm actually not too impressed by, it's good with loops but then you are already winning. Making it a win-more card in that regard. He doesn't have flash so you aren't going to take advantage of someone else wiping the board. And the tokens come in tapped, so even if you amass an army and can't finish it with death triggers, you are wide open to attacks and a wipe from an opponent for the next turn cycle.

Right now my best card to compare him to is Rout, as another instant speed wipe, and Austere Command which is more likely to be in decks right now than Rout. And when comparing Nev to Austere Command, I'm still somewhat favoring Austere as it is more likely to wipe when I need it and do so slightly more selectively.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Nimbaway wrote:
3 years ago
I'd definitely would compare Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant to the boardwipes that we are running, as it's most likely to compete for those slots.

The negatives for Nev are that it cost seven mana to wipe (six to cast, plus one for activation) , its heavily depending on whether or not you have a sacrifice outlet and it's not going to be selective to what you are going to destroy with it.

The positives are that you can pop him at instant speed (if you have a sac outlet), so opponents aren't the first to rebuild after you wipe the board. And Nev doesn't require double white mana to cast, which is relevant for those worrying about double mana pips in casting costs. Along with that he is still a creature so never an entirely dead card in your hand and can be brought back through out mass reanimates as well.

The token generation part of Nev I'm actually not too impressed by, it's good with loops but then you are already winning. Making it a win-more card in that regard. He doesn't have flash so you aren't going to take advantage of someone else wiping the board. And the tokens come in tapped, so even if you amass an army and can't finish it with death triggers, you are wide open to attacks and a wipe from an opponent for the next turn cycle.

Right now my best card to compare him to is Rout, as another instant speed wipe, and Austere Command which is more likely to be in decks right now than Rout. And when comparing Nev to Austere Command, I'm still somewhat favoring Austere as it is more likely to wipe when I need it and do so slightly more selectively.
I generally agree with all of this. Austere Command gets the nod for me, for being able to navigate the board and being able to favour us more.

I'm gonna say that we do have a little more control over his token generation than you're thinking, although are options are not myriad entirely. We do have, as I mentioned before, Apprentice Necromancer in response to a wipe, as his disk clause is a 'may'. There's free sacrifice triggers too, I guess, so it's not without options. Ideally, in terms of token generation you really want to get tons of triggers or pay very little to get him into play, so, like, reanimation I guess. There's not a lot of that at instant speed.....Goryo's Vengeance I guess? But yeah, ideally you want to drop him in at instant speed so that you're at least untapping with his army.
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Post by Wallycaine » 3 years ago

One further point with the token generation to keep in mind is that you can respond to the trigger. So if you're in a situation where you need to use him as a 7 mana wrath (drop and sacrifice him), you obviously have the option of holding open the trigger to perform it at instant speed... but you can also sac him in response to his ETB, and get a pile of tokens post wrath. In that vein, he can be seen as a sort of split card between Rout/disk, where you hold mana open to use him at instant speed, and a zombie based Martial Coup.

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Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

Wallycaine wrote:
3 years ago
One further point with the token generation to keep in mind is that you can respond to the trigger. So if you're in a situation where you need to use him as a 7 mana wrath (drop and sacrifice him), you obviously have the option of holding open the trigger to perform it at instant speed... but you can also sac him in response to his ETB, and get a pile of tokens post wrath. In that vein, he can be seen as a sort of split card between Rout/disk, where you hold mana open to use him at instant speed, and a zombie based Martial Coup.
I was going to write exactly this a couple hours ago, but couldn't log in on my phone. This is where I think he most shines, but not sure I would include him for all the reasons already stated.

Also, he's not unblockable, Toch.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Nimbaway wrote:
3 years ago
The positives are that you can pop him at instant speed (if you have a sac outlet), so opponents aren't the first to rebuild after you wipe the board. And Nev doesn't require double white mana to cast, which is relevant for those worrying about double mana pips in casting costs. Along with that he is still a creature so never an entirely dead card in your hand and can be brought back through out mass reanimates as well.
This is probably where my head is at with him. While there are other arguments for and against him, the idea that it is a wrath that limits the reliance on white and can be recurred makes him very appealing. 6 mana is very tough, but I think he can potentially slot into my list in place of Hour of Revelation. The card is good, 3 mana is awesome, but 3 white is less than ideal. I have already re-tooled my mana base to better support it, but it is possible to just go with something that can do most of the same thing as it is. The lack of sac outlets in my list, as I have been working on removing them in favor of colored sources, can be a detriment to being able to reliably trigger him, but I think there is enough there to warrant his inclusion.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
3 years ago
Also, he's not unblockable, Toch.
Yeah, I figured this out. I'd kind of equated hexproof with protection, and that's not accurate.
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Post by RedCheese » 3 years ago

Using a Living Death to kill the field with him on the graveyard is kinda sweet. He's both a zombie creature to be sued for other things while been a solid wrath. I think he's solid in the deck for those reasons. You can just discard him with Varina if needed.

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Post by Noir » 3 years ago

I'm definitely going to be trying out Nev. So much flavor!

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

RedCheese wrote:
3 years ago
Using a Living Death to kill the field with him on the graveyard is kinda sweet. He's both a zombie creature to be sued for other things while been a solid wrath. I think he's solid in the deck for those reasons. You can just discard him with Varina if needed.
Yeah, it might finally be worth me adding in the capacity for more sacrifice to make him more easily poppable - Phyrexian Tower would be nice, and I guess something like Altar of Dementia or Ashnod's Altar wouldn't be too busted. I like the idea of casting Living Death with him in the yard, getting some aristocrat triggers, popping him while he's in play and getting a second lot of aristocrat triggers, as well as a ton of zombies from his ETB. The more I think about it, he's a pretty savage piece of control, and really the only part of the card that I'm reluctant about is his casting cost.
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Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

Phyrexian Tower should probably be in the deck regardless. Being able to sac a creature, make an extra mana, and then reanimate is very valuable, for little investment.

In my deck, I think sac outlets are down to Tower, Phyrexian Altar, and maybe one other card. It feels light to me (I have a few decks heavily focused on sacrificing stuff that runs 8-12 sac outlets), but without anything specific I want dead, it hasn't been an issue, but with someone like Nev, I'd say the deck probably wants at least 4, if not 6 to have a reasonable chance of using him properly. High Market is a decent option, even if it pushes the colorless land count up a bit. As uninteresting as Nantuko Husk is, it's not a bad option--comes down early, free sac outlet, and can act as a finisher to knock a player out.

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Post by katsuma » 3 years ago

Also really interested in the new Nev card -- my Varina list is playing the following sac outlets, which I agree is the biggest element of if it's going to be a good card or not:

Phyrexian Tower
Carrion Feeder
Ashnod's Altar
Mirror Entity
Phyrexian Altar
Grimgrin, Corpse-Born

And then all the mass reanimation and actual boardwipes.

Here are the other cards from the new set that I'm considering:

Jeweled Lotus -- probably a NO because it's three color commander and not really worth a card, but still considering.
Akroma's Will -- seems just so good to me for the versatility, my list attacks pretty often, so having this seems good
Tormod, the Desecrator -- Probably not worth the effect at 4 CMC

Also considering adding an Eldrazi Monument that I opened recently -- anyone have strong feelings on how that plays in the deck?

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Post by blinx28 » 3 years ago

Long time yall!

I like Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant a lot, and will be losing a longtime fav of mine God-Eternal Oketra because my playstyle has shifted away from hardcasting Zombies after turn 6 to binning them for mass reanimation. It's a great great card that just doesn't fully realize it's value in my build.

Current iteration here: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/varina- ... ntrol-6-7/

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
3 years ago
Phyrexian Tower should probably be in the deck regardless. Being able to sac a creature, make an extra mana, and then reanimate is very valuable, for little investment.

In my deck, I think sac outlets are down to Tower, Phyrexian Altar, and maybe one other card. It feels light to me (I have a few decks heavily focused on sacrificing stuff that runs 8-12 sac outlets), but without anything specific I want dead, it hasn't been an issue, but with someone like Nev, I'd say the deck probably wants at least 4, if not 6 to have a reasonable chance of using him properly. High Market is a decent option, even if it pushes the colorless land count up a bit. As uninteresting as Nantuko Husk is, it's not a bad option--comes down early, free sac outlet, and can act as a finisher to knock a player out.
Oh I agree, I just don't have a spare. It's also back to not being all that affordable. Not back breaking, but over $20 which is a bit much. I did have Ashnod's Altar in here, but dropped it (I can't remember why, probably to avoid combo). As it is I think the only reliable sacrifice outlet I have in the deck is Carrion Feeder. I've considered Nantuko Husk/Phyrexian Ghoul in the past, so it might be worth chucking one or both in. I have a Grimgrin, Corpse-Born somewhere, but the CMC is a bit much for me. High Market I'm a little reluctant to add in terms of color fixing, but I guess the risk is probably pretty low.
katsuma wrote:
3 years ago
Also considering adding an Eldrazi Monument that I opened recently -- anyone have strong feelings on how that plays in the deck?
I've had really good results with this. Get you a Gravecrawler and your board state is pretty near indomitable. I prefer it to Wonder personally.
blinx28 wrote:
3 years ago
Long time yall!

I like Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant a lot, and will be losing a longtime fav of mine God-Eternal Oketra because my playstyle has shifted away from hardcasting Zombies after turn 6 to binning them for mass reanimation. It's a great great card that just doesn't fully realize it's value in my build.
Welcome back!

I'm thinking I'll probably cut the same. God-Eternal Oketra is great, but I think the raw explosive power of Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant is going to blow it out of the water.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Commander Legends Set Review




Well we've discussed a few bits and pieces back and forth. There's at least one definite inclusion to my mind, but it's worth doing more a of a deep dive and seeing what else the set has yielded.

Artifacts/Colorless/Lands

  • Commander's Plate - It's a great card, but I don't see the need here. It's not for us.
  • Jeweled Lotus - Don't believe the hype, y'all. Whether or not this is for us (it isn't), the number of decks that actually want this is fairly minimal. I won't be pursuing it for Glissa, the Traitor, which is the closest I have to a deck that would want it. Unless you're Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain, Urza, Lord High Artificer or Sai, Master Thopterist give it a miss.
  • Scroll Rack - Nice topdeck fixing. Could be pretty nice. I won't hold out for it, but it is pretty good. I see it helping us drop stuff into our yard with a lot more precision using this, although whether that's necessary is up for debate. Perhaps it helps us hold on to clutch nonpermanent spells though.
  • Vault of Champions - Its a pretty obvious include, in all fairness.



White


  • Akroma's Will - Its fine, but probably not really needed.
  • Triumphant Reckoning - Good lord but that's expensive. I'd at least consider it if it were cheaper, but as is, that's a lot to spend.
  • Timely Ward - Neat card, probably surplus to requirement though.

Blue

  • Laboratory Drudge - We just don't reanimate cards this way. Again, it's neat, but this is for Gisa and Geralf. Or decks running Reassembling Skeleton.
  • Sakashima's Will - This feels like Mirrorweave. I'm not immediately certain that I need a second version of that effect, but nonetheless it looks fun. Shame that your opponent picks the creature you get for the first mode, but that mostly isn't the mode I would be favouring.

Black


  • Necrotic Hex - It's a big splashy wipe, and mostly those aren't as good as the wipes that lean low to the ground. This is no exception.
  • Szat's Will - The first mode I can imagine being useful now and then, the second is actually pretty nice. It could have been insane if worded differently, but that's fine. I see this being good in a deck with ample instant speed sacrifice outlets. I won't go out of my way to get it, but I might try it out if I end up with it.
  • Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools - I know @WizardMN is planning on trying this one out, and I think it could do some interesting things. Good card advantage, the ultimate is silly, but no one is ever going to let you hit it. I could see it being a reasonable add.
  • Tormod, the Desecrator - Another card that was super close to being busted as all get out. It doesn't do enough as worded to my mind.

Multicolored


  • Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant - The more I look at it, the more crazy it looks. I'm imagining christmas land scenarios where I have it as well as Mikaeus, the Unhallowed in the same zones when I board wipe for a massive bloodletting and a huge zombie army, and then just doing it again for a second wave. There's instant speed possibilities with Apprentice Necromancer, I think it'll be a pretty great add.
All in all, not a massively good yield for us, but not nothing either. One game-ending 6-drop is still a good addition, and I think it'll be an excellent add.

Did I miss anything that deserves discussion?
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Post by katsuma » 3 years ago

Good shouts! A bit sad (or actually, really good?), but Vault of Champions is the only obvious auto-include from the set. I'll be picking up a budget Austere Command, at last.

Unrelated, but I just made a Scarab God deck using all the left over Zombies that didn't make the cut for Varina (Unbreathing Horde, Tomebound Lich, etc.) -- it's really nice to have a lower-powered deck to play all the zombies I love! I just need a mono-black zombie build and I'll have a nice sweep

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

katsuma wrote:
3 years ago
Good shouts! A bit sad (or actually, really good?), but Vault of Champions is the only obvious auto-include from the set. I'll be picking up a budget Austere Command, at last.

Unrelated, but I just made a Scarab God deck using all the left over Zombies that didn't make the cut for Varina (Unbreathing Horde, Tomebound Lich, etc.) -- it's really nice to have a lower-powered deck to play all the zombies I love! I just need a mono-black zombie build and I'll have a nice sweep
Well FWIW I think Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant is a seriously solid add, too, but I guess it does rely on death triggers and such, so if you're not leaning into a bleeder component of the deck I can see why you'd skip him. He's not cheap to cast either.

I too am really stoked to see Austere Command reprinted again. It's a great card thats stood the test of time.

I've also still got my The Scarab God floating about, perhaps I should sleeve something up.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Well, haven't had my Legends box come in yet, so no new new additions, but there's a couple of things I've been meaning to add for a little while and only just got the time:


Most of this is just streamlining the lands a little, and I am still on the lookout for a Sunken Ruins. There weren't a lot of Double Masters boxes that made their way to my neck of the woods. I'm a little hesitant adding in High Market and it doesn't color fix, but a free sac outlet is nice, and these additions add a couple anyway. I don't really want Altars in the deck to be honest, the deck doesn't need infinite, so why add it in if I don't need it?

Peer into the Abyss I'll be honest, I didn't really get a ton of opportunities to try it out, but when I did have it in hand it wasn't what I wanted to cast. Arcane Sanctum is fine but unspectacular, and Prairie Stream is a little surplus to requirement, so it's gone.
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