Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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Nimbaway
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Post by Nimbaway » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Not the worst idea in the world tbh. It does hinge on having a lord or our commander in play, but the CMC and price could not be better. Well, it could, but I'm not made of money.
My wallet reminded me of that last bit quite well this week when I went to pick up some of the pieces to start building Varina. Especially Kindred Discovery and Alhammarret's Archive made a huge dent in that regard, as was missing those in my collection and well they only had one of each at my LGS. Some store credit definitely helped out a tad though, now the tough decisions go towards picking cards for those last few slots.

The double blue on Counterspell does have me a little worried as well, but at the same time it has versatility in being able to stop nearly everything with it. Other then that I'm somewhat considering Dovin's Veto, it's noncreature but will shutdown any attempts that stop you from going for the win.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Nimbaway wrote:
3 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Not the worst idea in the world tbh. It does hinge on having a lord or our commander in play, but the CMC and price could not be better. Well, it could, but I'm not made of money.
My wallet reminded me of that last bit quite well this week when I went to pick up some of the pieces to start building Varina. Especially Kindred Discovery and Alhammarret's Archive made a huge dent in that regard, as was missing those in my collection and well they only had one of each at my LGS. Some store credit definitely helped out a tad though, now the tough decisions go towards picking cards for those last few slots.

The double blue on Counterspell does have me a little worried as well, but at the same time it has versatility in being able to stop nearly everything with it. Other then that I'm somewhat considering Dovin's Veto, it's noncreature but will shutdown any attempts that stop you from going for the win.
Yeah Archive is pretty up there. Honestly, Teferi's Ageless Insight is just as good and it's 20% of the cost, so just run that one alone I'd suggest. The double lifegain is fine, but definitely not a requirement, so it's not crucial to have the archive if you don't already own it. Kindred Discovery....well, not gonna lie, it's crazy good. And there really isn't much else that does what it does as well as itself. It's batshit bonkers good, and kind of worth the asking price to be honest.

I'd thought about Dovin's Veto too. I think at the end of the day go with what works for you. I could absolutely see losing Counterspell myself, I just don't have an immediate replacement myself. Swan Song is brilliant, Stubborn Denial is super cheap, Fierce Guardianship is probably the best we could use, but money. Whirlwind Denial potentially could be fine too, but ultimately it seems like trading off the extra u for 2. It does kind of clear the board for any possible answers for an entire turn though, so it's kind of cool in that respect. Mystical Dispute is an option too, but I think the further you look into options the muddier the water gets.

In the same vein as Delay, Ertai's Meddling could be pretty cool too. By the time whatever answer your opponents have resolves ideally it doesn't have a target anymore.
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Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
3 years ago
In that vein, I've been thinking of replacing my Reconnaissance with Stubborn Denial. It's especially good with Varina on the board.
I've been weighing Denial for a bit. I run it in Marchesa, the Black Rose where I have her on the board starting turn 4 or 5, and unless she's in the yard before an end step, she's basically there the rest of the game. Varina gets removed more often, and spends less time in play. I'd have to really note over several games how often I have a creature with power 4 or greater on the field when someone casts a noncreature spell that needs to be countered. I would run Fierce Guardianship over this if I felt that Varina was in play often enough.
toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
yeti1069 wrote:
3 years ago
Also, I want to reiterate that I feel playing the counterspells that require only rather than (Delay, Arcane Denial, Swan Song) is the way to go in a 3-color deck where Blue isn't the primary color. In general, I try to limit how many cards I run with or in their mana cost. I think God-Eternal Oketra and Kindred Discovery are the only ones.
I generally agree. I don't have a copy of Delay myself, and my only Swan Song is in use, but I can see the value in splashing as minimally as possible.
ChocoDude wrote:
3 years ago
In that vein, I've been thinking of replacing my Reconnaissance with Stubborn Denial. It's especially good with Varina on the board.
Not the worst idea in the world tbh. It does hinge on having a lord or our commander in play, but the CMC and price could not be better. Well, it could, but I'm not made of money.
I've just noted more than one game where I was hurting for or where requiring multiple pips in that color either wasn't an option, or made for some awkward plays: do you play out the cards in hand to advance your board state, or hold up mana for the counterspell? The more color requirements, the more strained those situations get. If my mana were a tiny bit better (ABUR duals, maybe another filter land or two), I might care less, but I'm still getting hands with colorless sources and .

What I like about Delay and Arcane Denial is they counter anything. I run Swan Song because it's cheap, and hits most of the spells this deck cares about, but I'd like a full counter there better. Dovin's Veto is nice for its ability to blank almost anything without a response, but again, it's asking for two non-black colors, and has some restrictions. I think it's among the best counters available to the deck, but I don't know that I'd necessarily want to lean on it. Maybe I'm being too conservative on this?

FoW I don't think I'd run here, as there aren't enough other blue cards in the deck to reliably have something to pitch. In my Marchesa list, which is something like 40% blue, 30% black, 30% red, I often am holding FoW and don't have a card to pitch. That deck also does a better job of keeping cards in hand (more on this in a moment). It also has more redundancy of effects, so I can often hold up a valuable blue card to pitch, because I have the effect on the table already. Here, the blue cards are more unique, and therefore harder to give up or hold back, I think.

So, I haven't been running the Archive or TAI for a long time. I had tried the Archive a while back, but didn't like spending 5 mana on set-up, and had one game with another deck where the doubled draw milled me out. Most games, cards in hand haven't been too much of a problem, but there have been some where it's been harder hanging onto things, and having one of those two would have helped a ton. I like TAI for being cheaper, and a little harder to remove as an enchantment, but the double makes it a little less enticing than the colorless Archive. I'll have to post my current list on here when I have a chance to get some feedback on what you would cut to add one of those.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
3 years ago
I've just noted more than one game where I was hurting for or where requiring multiple pips in that color either wasn't an option, or made for some awkward plays: do you play out the cards in hand to advance your board state, or hold up mana for the counterspell? The more color requirements, the more strained those situations get. If my mana were a tiny bit better (ABUR duals, maybe another filter land or two), I might care less, but I'm still getting hands with colorless sources and .
Yep, totally get it. Honestly, a lot of the time I'd cast Counterspell involves a similar decision, and the commitment to colours does mean a difficult decision, I really don't have the option of choosing to do both. So in that respect, it's often a card I'll turf on Varina's attack trigger. Considering what I see as cards that need answering, mostly I can deal with threats on the board, it's more combos I struggle to answer unless it's a right place, right time scenario, and mostly its stuff like Aetherflux Reservoir, Altars, Aminatou, the Fateshifter/Oath of Teferi and such, so a bargain basement counter would be great - Swan Song probably does fit the bill and covers most of these. Online games, you never know what you're gonna get, and there's usually one who's decided casual play means comboing off as early as possible. People are the worst. Stubborn Denial seems a reasonable budget consideration, but it probably is meta dependent. If there's lots of removal and Varina has a reputation, you probably won't get the mileage from it you need.
yeti1069 wrote:
3 years ago
So, I haven't been running the Archive or TAI for a long time. I had tried the Archive a while back, but didn't like spending 5 mana on set-up, and had one game with another deck where the doubled draw milled me out. Most games, cards in hand haven't been too much of a problem, but there have been some where it's been harder hanging onto things, and having one of those two would have helped a ton. I like TAI for being cheaper, and a little harder to remove as an enchantment, but the double makes it a little less enticing than the colorless Archive. I'll have to post my current list on here when I have a chance to get some feedback on what you would cut to add one of those.
Interesting - I'd like to see your list to see what you're running without these. I agree Archive is more pricey to cast than I'd like, but the effect is so worth it. I find without one of these, eventually between casting spells and the loot trigger I'm racing to a topdeck scenario fairly quickly, so I have to play a lot more conservatively. It's manageable, but far from optimal.
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Post by ChocoDude » 3 years ago

Makes sense. I have NOT tried Stubborn Denial with Varina yet. I still plan to anyway. NOTE: Stubborn Denial counters ANY spell if you have a creature with power 4 or greater...not just noncreature spells.

Crap I've been reading it wrong the whole time. You're right...it's non-creature spells. Doh!! Either way, I'd still like to try it. I do use the two filter lands with black in them so obtaining double or is a bit more possible.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
3 years ago
Makes sense. I have NOT tried Stubborn Denial with Varina yet. I still plan to anyway. NOTE: Stubborn Denial counters ANY spell if you have a creature with power 4 or greater...not just noncreature spells.

Crap I've been reading it wrong the whole time. You're right...it's non-creature spells. Doh!! Either way, I'd still like to try it. I do use the two filter lands with black in them so obtaining double or is a bit more possible.
Totally get why - unless Craterhoof Behemoth is in your meta, most of the game-winning spells are gonna be non-creature. It could work out well.
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Post by Nimbaway » 3 years ago

Taking everything in consideration, I feel Negate might be a safer option than Stubborn Denial and even Fierce Guardianship, since you probably want to mainly protect casting your Living Death and the likes the most. At that point you are likely to have a limited board and not have our Commander out, making them far more awkward to use. So Negate would probably be my pick after Swan Song if you want to avoid the double blue from Counterspell.


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Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

Nimbaway wrote:
3 years ago
Taking everything in consideration, I feel Negate might be a safer option than Stubborn Denial and even Fierce Guardianship, since you probably want to mainly protect casting your Living Death and the likes the most. At that point you are likely to have a limited board and not have our Commander out, making them far more awkward to use. So Negate would probably be my pick after Swan Song if you want to avoid the double blue from Counterspell.
Are you putting that ahead of Delay and Arcane Denial?

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Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
ChocoDude wrote:
3 years ago
Makes sense. I have NOT tried Stubborn Denial with Varina yet. I still plan to anyway. NOTE: Stubborn Denial counters ANY spell if you have a creature with power 4 or greater...not just noncreature spells.

Crap I've been reading it wrong the whole time. You're right...it's non-creature spells. Doh!! Either way, I'd still like to try it. I do use the two filter lands with black in them so obtaining double or is a bit more possible.
Totally get why - unless Craterhoof Behemoth is in your meta, most of the game-winning spells are gonna be non-creature. It could work out well.
If there's a dangerous wincon, I'm probably dealing with it with some regularity. But it's not just Craterhoof. Things like Containment Priest in response to a mass reanimation spell can be BAD.
There are also plenty of combos that rely on creatures to win.
Now, yes, Instants, Sorceries, and a few select Enchantments are the biggest concerns usually, but if I'm paying more than 1 mana for my counterspell, I want it to hit whatever I need it to.

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Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

Nimbaway wrote:
3 years ago
Taking everything in consideration, I feel Negate might be a safer option than Stubborn Denial and even Fierce Guardianship, since you probably want to mainly protect casting your Living Death and the likes the most. At that point you are likely to have a limited board and not have our Commander out, making them far more awkward to use. So Negate would probably be my pick after Swan Song if you want to avoid the double blue from Counterspell.
That's a good point regarding Fierce Guardianship.

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Post by Nimbaway » 3 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
3 years ago
Are you putting that ahead of Delay and Arcane Denial?
I tend to see Delay as a more expensive version (money wise) of Negate, with the upside that it can stall a creature, planeswalker or enchantment for a few turns. If you have a copy then I'd say run it before Negate. Arcane Denial is the first I'd slot in though since it doesn't have double blue and hits everything. Them drawing is a downside but not the worst, not to mention it acts as a cantrip which is beneficial in a deck tends to discard/loot a lot.

The single mana cost of Swan Song is a huge upside and it not hitting planeswalkers I don't see too much as an issue. Though the deck can be vulnerable to flyers so that 2/2 might hurt when you are at a low life total, which is something to consider seeing some of our card draw but the low mana cost still makes me feel its worth that risk. So I'd slot it in after Arcane Denial.

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Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

I'm running 3 counters: Arcane Denial, Delay, and Swan Song. As it is, I find myself discarding at least one of them in probably half my games, in order to be more proactive, but holding onto them has almost always led to a game win.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Yeah, I definitely think Swan Song is where it's at if you have access to it. It's shot up in price again and hasn't been reprinted since 2016, so I don't have a spare myself. It's something to keep an eye out for though.

In other aspects, I was thinking about the draw aspect of the deck. I know yeti mentioned not running Insight or Archive; what do you guys think of Tymna the Weaver in the deck? Not a zombie, but she's more recurrable than artifacts or enchantments and with her trigger being separate from Varina's rather than simply doubling Varina's trigger it might be a more stable draw option. The life loss is perfectly set off from Varina (and herself), and the fact that she's so low to the ground means a pretty vigorous start.

She is, of course, quite pricey right now, but according to leaks is due to be reprinted shortly, in what is essentially a draft set, so...y'know, she might drop in price.

Thoughts?
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Post by Nimbaway » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Yeah, I definitely think Swan Song is where it's at if you have access to it. It's shot up in price again and hasn't been reprinted since 2016, so I don't have a spare myself. It's something to keep an eye out for though.

In other aspects, I was thinking about the draw aspect of the deck. I know yeti mentioned not running Insight or Archive; what do you guys think of Tymna the Weaver in the deck? Not a zombie, but she's more recurrable than artifacts or enchantments and with her trigger being separate from Varina's rather than simply doubling Varina's trigger it might be a more stable draw option. The life loss is perfectly set off from Varina (and herself), and the fact that she's so low to the ground means a pretty vigorous start.

She is, of course, quite pricey right now, but according to leaks is due to be reprinted shortly, in what is essentially a draft set, so...y'know, she might drop in price.

Thoughts?
Swan Song was reprinted just not in the way we wanted with it being in a Secret Lair xD.

I'm still working on finalizing my list for Varina, hoping to get the remaining cards in tomorrow, so haven't gotten to run it. Insight and Archive are depending on having another card draw engine going, so in the worst situation where you need those cards they aren't perfect. However, a lot of our card draw is already bound to creatures, while this is more easily to get back, it also remains vulnerable and at least in my area she is quite the target from having been in the Command Zone enough times by people. I'd probably be more inclined to run something like Phyrexian Arena, it's only one card per turn but will in the least do so each turn without restriction.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Regarding Insight and Archive:

I do think the effect is really good especially considering one of our main draw engines is our general. Having our general be one of the main sources of draw is basically what makes these cards playable when they otherwise wouldn't be in the same deck with a different general.

I will agree Varina can draw some hate, but the recursion the deck has can get around that somewhat. I had a game a couple weeks ago when she was removed twice so I just let her go to the yard and the reanimated her later.

Now, with that being said, I would be lying if I said I hadn't at least given serious thought to Archive's role in this deck. It is actually surprising how much of a different that extra mana makes when comparing it to Insight (and ignoring the life gain aspect). This deck tends to want to be low to the ground and a 5 mana artifact that can be a dead card is something to watch out for.

I have not had the same inclinations for Insight though. The effect is absolutely worth at least having one of these cards in the deck and I think I would choose the lower mana cost over the interaction with life gain every day and I have had success with Insight in other decks as well where I think Archive would be too expensive.

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Post by Kvothe » 3 years ago

I feel from trying in it in a few decks that Tymna isn't worth it in most decks if she's outside the command zone.

I agree with WizardMN, being one mana cheaper is super relevant.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
Regarding Insight and Archive:

I do think the effect is really good especially considering one of our main draw engines is our general. Having our general be one of the main sources of draw is basically what makes these cards playable when they otherwise wouldn't be in the same deck with a different general.

I will agree Varina can draw some hate, but the recursion the deck has can get around that somewhat. I had a game a couple weeks ago when she was removed twice so I just let her go to the yard and the reanimated her later.

Now, with that being said, I would be lying if I said I hadn't at least given serious thought to Archive's role in this deck. It is actually surprising how much of a different that extra mana makes when comparing it to Insight (and ignoring the life gain aspect). This deck tends to want to be low to the ground and a 5 mana artifact that can be a dead card is something to watch out for.

I have not had the same inclinations for Insight though. The effect is absolutely worth at least having one of these cards in the deck and I think I would choose the lower mana cost over the interaction with life gain every day and I have had success with Insight in other decks as well where I think Archive would be too expensive.
Kvothe wrote:
3 years ago
I feel from trying in it in a few decks that Tymna isn't worth it in most decks if she's outside the command zone.

I agree with WizardMN, being one mana cheaper is super relevant.
I've had great results with Insight too. The reduced cost makes a huge difference. I still want Archive for redundancy's sake; even if either of these does resolve they're both kill on sight, so having a back up is handy.

I guess Tymna the Weaver is a tempo card. We can't absolutely guarantee we come out the gate swinging, and if we don't or if we can't connect she's a bit tough to work around.
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Post by Nimbaway » 3 years ago

Might be a bit before I get to play the deck due to lockdown restrictions making things tougher for our playgroup together, but after some tinkering around I decided with the list below as my first run with Varina. It's more leaning towards Aristocrats with a backdoor into a Lab Man win.

Varina

Commander

Approximate Total Cost:

There is probably some questionable inclusions, like having Caverns in there and no Talismans. Its part due to not having any spare Talismans to use, while my Caverns was just sitting in my binder as most decks don't really need it. Chromatic Lantern is a card I might still end up replacing down the line though.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

<snip>

Looks like a cool list. There's at least a couple of includes here I'd be keen to hear about - Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet is an interesting add, it'd be cool to hear how well it generates tokens. I kind of like how it makes our big reanimation spells one-sided too.

Cauldron Haze is a nice hidden gem too. I keep peering at it in my crates and wondering if it has a place anywhere, so I'd be keen to hear feedback.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 years ago

What do you think about Tormod the Desecrator ?

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Post by Kvothe » 3 years ago

I like the effect, the flavor and the frame, so I'll look into a way to work him into my list.

I don't play modern anymore, or much really as I don't have a playgroup anymore, but I really enjoyed this video:



It's one of the things I like to do in my list, ping opponents to death, it would be cool if Geralf's Messenger affected every opponent.

I also love to create large amount of zombie tokens, which is why I hope to incorporate Tormod into my list, to have synergies like those of Hogaak decks.

Also the Zombie Swamp is cool, I would love to have it in fullart.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 years ago
What do you think about Tormod the Desecrator ?
Honestly, I'm pretty disappointed with all of the zombie additions thus far. The non-legendaries benefit casting things from the yard which suits Muldrotha, the Gravetide far more than anything my deck does, and Tormod the Desecrator is so close to being amazing, but no cigar. It's the 'one or more' clause; means that for our mass reanimation spells, no matter the number of creatures coming back, we get one extra (tapped) creature. That's just not good enough. If it were lots of tapped creatures, I'd be very happy regardless, but one is just very sad panda.
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I'm with @toctheyounger on this one. The best use for Tormod is with Varina obviously. Using her ability now generates 2 tapped zombies instead of just one. Which, all in all, isn't exactly bad. Doubling up her ability is decent.

The problem comes down to a couple of things though. The 4 mana from Tormod ends up being higher than it is worth. 4 mana when we are, generally, lower on the curve, and for something that does literally nothing on its own is bad.

And, as toc alluded to: our mass reanimation spells get basically nothing out of it (and if Tormod is one of those returned, we get literally nothing as he won't trigger for anything that left the graveyard at the same time as him). And since mass reanimation is more where the deck wants to be, Tormod ends up having a very small impact.

Now, there are things like Phyrexian Reclamation, Volrath's Stronghold, Phyrexian Delver, Havengul Lich, Liliana, Death's Majesty, and Unholy Grotto (in addition to Varina) that can help trigger him pretty easily. For me though, I have cut Stronghold already, and Delver, Lich, and Liliana are currently on the chopping block for me due to mana cost and the fact that single target reanimation isn't good enough.

I also noticed toc removed Cemetery Reaper which would have worked well with Tormod. And it is a cut I am waffling on myself.

Arguably, if a list is more focused on single target reanimation or Raise Dead effects, Tormod starts to make more sense. But I still think you are best off with mass reanimation overall and just ignoring Tormod entirely.

With all of that being said however, I will still probably slot him in just because I have cards I don't want already and he does lower the curve. Though, he takes the place of one of the three above (likely Liliana) so I am still removing a card that he works with.

He is basically going to start out as a "flex slot" because I don't like him, but we have gotten very little in the way of new, and good, zombies in the past few sets so the pickins are pretty slim.

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Post by Kvothe » 3 years ago

It seems to me it can be decent looping Gravecrawler and in conjunction with Withered Wretch, for an instant army. He also works with a couple Unearth guys I run.

I'm ok with trying him as a top end to my curve, but yeah, it's unfortunate that it creates a single zombie per trigger.

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