Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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pzbw7z
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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

FoxHybrid wrote:
2 years ago
While I don't run a Varina deck, I use a lot of concepts used in Varina (like drain & mass reanimation) in my Alesha, Who Smiles at Death deck and I was wondering if a piece of tech I use in that deck would work here. How would you guys feel about including Reconnaissance? In Alesha I find it's a good way to work through board stalls and here I feel it can protect key zombies that you otherwise wouldn't want to attack with, but I was wondering if that was a problem you guys were encountering.

(Edited to clarify points)
I have seen and considered Reconnaissance but I haven't got a copy. Not being entirely sold on it yet, I haven't made an attempt to get one yet. It makes sense to me as I seem to care more about my Zombies than the average Varina pilot :) - many of my Zombies have such good abilities!

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
I think Grave Scrabbler is the only madness creature effect I would include - incredible value for 2 mana and easy to accomplish with no extra work in this deck. I have been meaning to try it out but haven't played in over a month...

Call to the netherworld was in one of my early lists, and I still feel like it belongs in the deck - it's just free card advantage. I feel that way about 115 cards and can only put 100 in my deck lol...

If I could push myself to make a few more difficult cuts I would add both of these cards to my deck. I just have a hard time making those cuts right now.
I like both of those. I do wish that $0.02 cards didn't cost $0.99 on eBay. :)

The cuts are always difficult.

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

Tonight I played a grueling four-way grind fest with multiple board wipes. Zombie Apocalypse got me on the road to recovery and, later, Patriarch's Bidding put me in a good spot. I was able to draw Shambling Ghast off a sac trigger from Undead Augur or Midnight Reaper (I had both out) and tutored for Liliana, Untouched by Death to end it but my Phyrexian Altar got destroyed. :(

It didn't matter. :)

Good times. When a game goes long, the Zombies usually just get stronger!

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Post by Eburon » 2 years ago

FoxHybrid wrote:
2 years ago
How would you guys feel about including Reconnaissance?
So, it is not a bad card, but because many of us include mass reanimation as part of the strategy, we usually don't care as much if zombies go to the yard. This is different from Alesha's strategy that cares more about keeping creatures (especially Alesha) alive. It has much higher value in Alesha vs in Varina because of the different strategies.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Eburon wrote:
2 years ago
FoxHybrid wrote:
2 years ago
How would you guys feel about including Reconnaissance?
So, it is not a bad card, but because many of us include mass reanimation as part of the strategy, we usually don't care as much if zombies go to the yard. This is different from Alesha's strategy that cares more about keeping creatures (especially Alesha) alive. It has much higher value in Alesha vs in Varina because of the different strategies.
This. Plus, Varina being a 4/4 (or bigger with lords around) makes her harder to block as well.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

Just came across lazotep plating. Seems very good to me. Basically a cantripping counterspell in many scenarios. Balanced reactive/proactive card.
Zombies ate my brains.
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Post by Eburon » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
Just came across lazotep plating. Seems very good to me. Basically a cantripping counterspell in many scenarios. Balanced reactive/proactive card.
But, it isn't a counterspell. It doesn't stop Toxic Deluge, it doesn't stop a winning combo from an opponent. In almost every situation, I'd rather have a counterspell.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

Eburon wrote:
2 years ago
plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
Just came across lazotep plating. Seems very good to me. Basically a cantripping counterspell in many scenarios. Balanced reactive/proactive card.
But, it isn't a counterspell. It doesn't stop Toxic Deluge, it doesn't stop a winning combo from an opponent. In almost every situation, I'd rather have a counterspell.
Lol. It is obviously not a counterspell. Thats a pretty narrow way to evaluate a card suggestion.

I say it is like a counterspell in many scenarios. I thought it was obvious what sorts of scenarios it is basically a counterspell, but I will give an example.

Targeted Removal spells on important things like phyrexian altar. Worst case scenario you bin it to Varina or cantrip it.

For people looking for budget interaction I see no reason why this card could not be considered. It is obviously not a replacement for a free or efficient counterspell, however. Its a hybrid cantripping interaction effect. Very tempo positive, in fact.
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I think I would run Lazotep Plating before any UU counterspell except Mana Drain personally and before narrow cards like Swan Song, because of the upside of making zombo and protecting your entire board. It has a lot of applications. But it makes a zombie and protects one of your payoff cards. Generally speaking the only things I usually care that much about dying are Varina, Lich Queen and whatever combo piece, people sweeping the board is usually a win for me so I don't want to stop it. Odds of me burning a counter on someone's sweeper are pretty low.

There're a surprising number of things you can counter with giving yourself hexproof too (such as Aetherflux Reservoir).

Definitely worthy of consideration.

edit: I will note that I think the more combo oriented you are the better this card is, and the more midrange you are the worse it is. Its absolute best use is protecting a combo piece

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Post by dueba » 2 years ago

Hello again :) , Recently there has been a few little changes to my decklist thanks to your feedback to lean further into mass reanimation and i am quite happy with it as it performs pretty reliably considering the budget (running temporary proxies in place of few ordered cards).

I have also sold a few cards to my lgs and accumilated some store credit now of ~$40 AUD and was wondering what type of further upgrades could be bought with that, my initial thoughts were something along the lines of a necroduality and ashnods altar/altar of dementia to help progress my gameplan or better lands/mana base. wondering on opinions on this.

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/DcGhwts0WEWtMjcW3B662Q

also wondering about possible cuts in the higher cmc area to smooth out games a little more and accomodate new additions, thinking about stuff like tormod, undead warchief, liliana

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

dueba wrote:
2 years ago
Hello again :) , Recently there has been a few little changes to my decklist thanks to your feedback to lean further into mass reanimation and i am quite happy with it as it performs pretty reliably considering the budget (running temporary proxies in place of few ordered cards).

I have also sold a few cards to my lgs and accumilated some store credit now of ~$40 AUD and was wondering what type of further upgrades could be bought with that, my initial thoughts were something along the lines of a necroduality and ashnods altar/altar of dementia to help progress my gameplan or better lands/mana base. wondering on opinions on this.

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/DcGhwts0WEWtMjcW3B662Q

also wondering about possible cuts in the higher cmc area to smooth out games a little more and accomodate new additions, thinking about stuff like tormod, undead warchief, liliana
Curse of the Swine seems like a bad card to me. A board wipe would be better, in my view. I never mind my creatures going to the yard along with everyone else's; mine are coming back - with a vengeance!

Zombie Infestation is another card I can't get behind. With Varina's looting, I have never wanted to discard cards any other way.

I'm sceptical of Bolas's Citadel in this list; the average casting cost seems high.

No Zombie deck should be without Gravecrawler, this is - or should be - rule number one!

Necroduality seems good. Ashnod's Altar is useful - not as good as Phyrexian Altar but more budget friendly.

Altar of Dementia is another strategy altogether, unless you plan to mill yourself. Without a combo to abuse it, I think I'd pass. I actually do have combos in my list that could abuse it and I have still passed.

Fetch lands are the best fix but the good ones are mostly not budget friendly. Fabled Passage doesn't suck and isn't at all pricey. Marsh Flats isn't bad but Polluted Delta is pretty steep. Any B fetch is fine, but Flats is probably the cheapest of the bunch.

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Post by Eburon » 2 years ago

In regards to Lazotep Plating. A similar discussion has been had many times in an Edric-group I am part of. The card that often gets discussed is Heroic Intervention. What does Plating do that a counterspell effect can't. I would rank Arcane Denial, Delay, and such higher just because they can stop so many more things that Plating can't. I am not saying plating is a bad card. In my opinion, there are many more efficient options.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
I think I would run Lazotep Plating before any UU counterspell except Mana Drain personally and before narrow cards like Swan Song, because of the upside of making zombo and protecting your entire board. It has a lot of applications. But it makes a zombie and protects one of your payoff cards. Generally speaking the only things I usually care that much about dying are Varina, Lich Queen and whatever combo piece, people sweeping the board is usually a win for me so I don't want to stop it. Odds of me burning a counter on someone's sweeper are pretty low.

There're a surprising number of things you can counter with giving yourself hexproof too (such as Aetherflux Reservoir).

Definitely worthy of consideration.

edit: I will note that I think the more combo oriented you are the better this card is, and the more midrange you are the worse it is. Its absolute best use is protecting a combo piece
Came here to say this, knew you'd have it in hand already. Pretty much this. I think amass cards in general get a lot more appealing with Skullclamp about, and honestly Plating is fine in a build that wants to be really proactive about its ability to win, or if you're competing more on the stack than in board state (that said, can't attack a guy with hexproof). It doesn't go in every build, and if you're building with redundancy it absolutely isn't necessary. I think it probably gets better the higher up the food chain you go, and it probably does become a min/max for Swan Song one way or the other. I feel like they do similar things for the deck - they either nip a win in the bud for an opponent, or protect your critical play.
dueba wrote:
2 years ago
Hello again :) , Recently there has been a few little changes to my decklist thanks to your feedback to lean further into mass reanimation and i am quite happy with it as it performs pretty reliably considering the budget (running temporary proxies in place of few ordered cards).

I have also sold a few cards to my lgs and accumilated some store credit now of ~$40 AUD and was wondering what type of further upgrades could be bought with that, my initial thoughts were something along the lines of a necroduality and ashnods altar/altar of dementia to help progress my gameplan or better lands/mana base. wondering on opinions on this.

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/DcGhwts0WEWtMjcW3B662Q

also wondering about possible cuts in the higher cmc area to smooth out games a little more and accomodate new additions, thinking about stuff like tormod, undead warchief, liliana
You could definitely lose Lili. Shes fine but not stellar and certainly not worth the CMC here. If you want a walker, its gotta be Dreadhorde General,
and I'm pretty sure she isn't cheap anymore.

Tormod too - good card but you've really gotta be reanimating or taking cards in and out of your graveyard a ton to make it worth it, and that means diversifying with stuff like dredge, retrace, delve, land recursion, and self reanimating creatures. Its possible abd could even be very strong, you wanna get in on things like Gravecrawler, Prized Amalgam and Silversmote Ghoul to really get that going though.

I think Victimize is a weird card to have. Its fine but not stellar and its always going to be a losing proposition really, sacking two for one. I'd definitely give Empty the Laboratory a go. I've not had an unfavorable spin of that wheel yet. Even x=2 or 3 has always been decent thus far. It does that what Victimize does but with more certainty and more late game impact, because you're still filling your yard AND thinning your deck, plus giving you stuff to swing with.

I'll be honest, haven't seen Necroduality jn play yet. I hear good things, but honestly if you've got 40 to spend and this is in the running its still probably the last thing I'd want to get. Not that its not worth having, it just eats into all of your credit for one card where multiple cheaper cards would do a lot more for your synergy and give you a better overall gameplay experience.

Cryptbreaker is a glaring omission from your list here, and its not as cheap as it was pre Innistrad 3, but its still very, very worth it. It drops first turn, you can use its draw ability right away (it bypasses summoning sickness, thats what makes it so good - like Earthcraft) and its a zombie in a deck that innately draws from zombies. Very, very worth having. Edit: just checked the price and its like 7 bucks. Thats a snap, for real. Definitely top of the list to pick up.

I've found Putrid Goblin really good too. Sure, it combos with Mike, but its also just really good with an altar for burst mana, with Skullclamp for cards in hand, and tokens with Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver and Headless Rider.

I too think you probably don't need the Citadel. Very good card, I don't think this is the right place for it though. Realistically you want a lot of fetches and topdeck manipulation to make sure you're not stalling yourself on land, and even then its not that critical to going off. We just don't need it, so its inflating your curve past where it should be. I'd say you could probably swap it out for Skullclamp with no regrets at all.

The other couple of things that are really worth finding room in the budget for in a general sense are Mystic Remora and Sevinne's Reclamation. They're both generic goodstuff but they both suit the deck very well. Remora is just a lot better than Teferi's Ageless Insight even if it doesn't last as long, and Reclamation just has SO many applications in the deck. Even without fetches its very, very good and will just help keep the wheels on if your plans get disrupted or keep momentum going for you. Cannot recommend that one enough.
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Post by dueba » 2 years ago

Cryptbreaker is a glaring omission from your list here, and its not as cheap as it was pre Innistrad 3, but its still very, very worth it. It drops first turn, you can use its draw ability right away (it bypasses summoning sickness, thats what makes it so good - like Earthcraft) and its a zombie in a deck that innately draws from zombies. Very, very worth having. Edit: just checked the price and its like 7 bucks. Thats a snap, for real. Definitely top of the list to pick up.
Makes a lot of sense now i'm considering it again, I'd initially avoided it due to its pricetag but it definetely gives something to do with my zombies if i need more draw and won't be used for varina triggers. will add
I've found Putrid Goblin really good too. Sure, it combos with Mike, but its also just really good with an altar for burst mana, with Skullclamp for cards in hand, and tokens with Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver and Headless Rider.
Another card i have overlooked as a simple yet effective 2 drop with an advantage of getting 2 nontoken death triggers for midnight reaper or headless rider, easy addition
I too think you probably don't need the Citadel. Very good card, I don't think this is the right place for it though. Realistically you want a lot of fetches and topdeck manipulation to make sure you're not stalling yourself on land, and even then its not that critical to going off. We just don't need it, so its inflating your curve past where it should be. I'd say you could probably swap it out for Skullclamp with no regrets at all.

As my meta is not too competitive, maybe midpower for the most-part, Citadel did seem to be an out of place but mostly fine card when played, i can definetely see why it should be omitted but depends how Skullclamp will perform in its place.

Regarding Mystic remora i would definetely love to get my hands on it one day but in my play group probably wont be too effective for how much it costs, same for Sevinne's reclamation. For now they cant fit in the budget but if i decide on further upgrades i will definetely give them another think.
Will most likely be purchasing Ashnod's Altar, Skullclamp and Cryptbreaker with my credit as i think they will make the biggest improvement on my gameplan.

Thanks again for the help!

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

@dueba Fair assessment on those. I think you've chosen well, those are solid inclusionsall around I can't see you regretting. The clamp should be great for draw i would think. Ideally I'd be saying grab Kindred Discovery, because that card is just bonkers, but its also pretty up there for price so its down the line some. Regardless these should all be pretty great for the build in general.
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Post by Eburon » 2 years ago

Just wanted to share my current list. I have some cards I am considering such as Necroduality, Rooftop Storm, Demonic Tutor, ...
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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

Eburon wrote:
2 years ago
Just wanted to share my current list. I have some cards I am considering such as Necroduality, Rooftop Storm, Demonic Tutor, ...
I mostly dig it. We have about 60% overlap. I'm curious if you find Read the Runes effective.

Necroduality seems good, I currently run Rooftop Storm and I like it but it is sometimes too much mana. I've considered replacing Rooftop Storm with Necroduality, but I would have to buy a copy of the later and I still really like the former.

Demonic Tutor seems an auto-include if you have a copy available, my B tutors are divided among two decks and Prosper is more combo-oriented than Varina so he has the Demonic Tutor.

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Post by Eburon » 2 years ago

Read the Runes could easily be Pull from Tomorrow or other card draw for me. The one thing that I like about Read the Runes is that it allows you to sac permanents, which could be beneficial from time to time.

Necroduality seems like a great include, but I am not 100% convinced it is a necessary include.

And, yes, D-Tutor does make a lot of sense. Once we start including tutors, the deck does start going down a different route slightly.

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Post by Eburon » 2 years ago

Secluded Courtyard seems like a nice option (improved Unclaimed Territory).

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

So far, I've drawn Necroduality a half dozen times and haven't played it. Taking a turn off for it just doesn't ever feel worthwhile, unlike Rooftop, which at the least still puts one zombie into play.

In other news, absolutely stomped a table tonight, closing out the game with Nykthos for 18 the turn after a Zombie Apocalypse. Cast and sacrificed Gravecrawler to Carrion Feeder with Diregraf Colossus and Corpse Knight in play to drain the table for 36 life.

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Post by Eburon » 2 years ago

Rooftop is a combo piece whereas Necroduality is a value generator. I can see Necroduality go bonkers after a mass reanimate though.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Eburon wrote:
2 years ago
Rooftop is a combo piece whereas Necroduality is a value generator. I can see Necroduality go bonkers after a mass reanimate though.
Right, but WHEN do you play Necro? So far, every time I've had it in hand, I've had other stuff it made more sense to play, rather than taking a turn off for a 4 mana enchantment that does nothing on its own. While Rooftop CAN be a combo piece, it's also a value generator. And while 6 mana is greater than 4, if I have a 3+ mana zombie in hand, and 6 mana, I can cast Rooftop + zombie (and any other zombies), whereas with Necro I only get the enchantment. Now, sure, I pitch Rooftop some of the time, too, especially if I draw it early and don't have a handful of zombies and mana, but when I play it, it immediately does something, and if it sticks for a turn, it provides some value.

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
Eburon wrote:
2 years ago
Rooftop is a combo piece whereas Necroduality is a value generator. I can see Necroduality go bonkers after a mass reanimate though.
Right, but WHEN do you play Necro? So far, every time I've had it in hand, I've had other stuff it made more sense to play, rather than taking a turn off for a 4 mana enchantment that does nothing on its own. While Rooftop CAN be a combo piece, it's also a value generator. And while 6 mana is greater than 4, if I have a 3+ mana zombie in hand, and 6 mana, I can cast Rooftop + zombie (and any other zombies), whereas with Necro I only get the enchantment. Now, sure, I pitch Rooftop some of the time, too, especially if I draw it early and don't have a handful of zombies and mana, but when I play it, it immediately does something, and if it sticks for a turn, it provides some value.
Especially fun in the 3-drop is Acererak the Arch-Lich!

I had one of those but traded it off before I built Varina. :(

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Eh. I wouldn't run Acererak here. Without Rooftop or another combo-y way to replay it, it's a pretty bad card.

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Post by pzbw7z » 2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
Eh. I wouldn't run Acererak here. Without Rooftop or another combo-y way to replay it, it's a pretty bad card.
Agreed. But I might still try it. It would be fun to pull off once. :)

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